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Israeli apartheid
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There's planty of Muslim states they can move to. There's only one homeland for the Jews and I believe it should be kept that way. The sooner Israel secures the border and pulls out of all palestinian territory the better.Also, if Israel is to keep all the land should the Palestinians be given equal rights? Also, how do you think Zionists will react, if Palestinians vote for the creation of a state of all its citizens, as opposed to a Jewish one?0 -
The question was why? Not when.
There one and the same.By your theory the Boers of South Africa should now be black considering they have been there for 350 years (but no, they still look Dutch) it takes longer than you seem to suggest. If you agree with the premise of adaptation (which is the precursor to evolution) why not just say "yes" instead of dragging out another point.
Please show me where I denied the HGP. Please show me where I denied humans are 99% the same across all races.
Takes a lot longer than that.
No, you didn't bother to address the Human Genome project at all instead.You havnt offered how they identify other races.
I have no idea how they do so, and it doesn't matter in the context my argument. To put it simply, as per Israeli law Jews are a race.Well they are not a race plain and simple. Here's a book for you: Its called the Myth of the Jewish Race, http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=Xt7f6WBEP0EC&oi=fnd&pg=PR13&dq=are+jews+a+race&ots=tJWi_c2dcD&sig=toT7pWn-uLzi-cOJCT24iANIchg#v=onepage&q=are%20jews%20a%20race&f=false
You are clearly not reading my posts. Once again, Israel considers Jews to be a race, and there racism is done on that basis. Whether Jews are a race or not, does not matter, but the Israeli government considers Jews to be a race and runs there state along those lines.Ah I see, apatheid also is closely tied in with racism so religious discrimination just wouldn't fit it perfectly.
It would fit just fine actually. Apartheid is about separation, and this can be done on race or religious grounds.So you accept that racism has more political economy than religious discrimination. All forms of discrimination are as bad as each other. You shouldn't be vying to obtain a term which does not aply to a situation just because it is more powerful in public discourse.
No, I am arguing that it is racism, because that is what it is. You are clearly arguing against it, to minimize Israels actions.0 -
There's planty of Muslim states they can move to.
here's only one homeland for the Jews and I believe it should be kept that way.
So you support ethnic cleansing then? Why should they move? Care to give me a reason, why Jews have a right to live there, but Palestinians should move? Oh wait, you did give a reason, and that is that Israel should be a Jewish state, so the Palestinians should leave then.
They are the indigenous population, and have every right to be there. Saying that the Palestinians should move to other Muslim states is deeply and profoundly disturbing, and imho what you suggest is ethnic cleansing plain and simple. Now, am I wrong in my interpretation of what your saying, and if you consider me wrong, then how exactly can the above statement from you be interpreted differently, as I would have a hard time, seeing it as anything other than a suggestion of ethnic cleansing.
They have every right to be there, and the racist delusions of Zionists will never change that.The sooner Israel secures the border and pulls out of all palestinian territory the better.
What do you mean by this. You have suggested that Israel, should keep all the land, and that the Palestinians should move.
So what happen if they don't want to move? Should they be violently expelled? Denied Human Rights, until they leave due to ill treatment? Kill them all? How exactly should Israel go about maintaining there "Jewish" state.
Also, do you believe Palestinians should have equal rights to Jews? Also, saying they should move doesn't answer this question.0 -
what part of that did i support ethnic cleansing. Where did I say only Jews should live there? where did i say palestinians should move?So you support ethnic cleansing then? Why should they move? Care to give me a reason, why Jews have a right to live there, but Palestinians should move? Oh wait, you did give a reason, and that is that Israel should be a Jewish state, so the non-Jews should leave then.
They are the indigenous population, and have every right to be there. Saying that the Palestinians should move to other Muslim states is deeply and profoundly disturbing, and imho what you suggest is ethnic cleansing plain and simple. They have every right to be there, and the racist delusions of Zionists will never change that.0 -
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A time and a reason are not the same thing.There one and the same.
So to answer my question: I never denied the HGP. I didn't. If its a straight question just answer it.No, you didn't bother to address the Human Genome project at all instead.
By definition, by the restraints of lanuguage and science, what Israel does is not racist, it is religiously discriminatory. No amount of you repeating yourself will change this fact.You are clearly not reading my posts. Once again, Israel considers Jews to be a race, and there racism is done on that basis.
It conjours thoughts of racism in the public domain.It would fit just fine actually. Apartheid is about separation, and this can be done on race or religious grounds.
No one thinks of religion when they think of apartheid, why would they? Whereas everyone thinks of religion when discussing the middle east, lending further weight to my argument.
Where have I minimized the actions of Israel?to minimize Israels actions.0 -
what part of that did i support ethnic cleansing. Where did I say only Jews should live there? where did i say palestinians should move?
So can you clarify your statement here then:There's planty of Muslim states they can move to. There's only one homeland for the Jews and I believe it should be kept that way. The sooner Israel secures the border and pulls out of all palestinian territory the better.
You clearly say Palestinian can move to Muslim states, and that Israel should be kept a Jewish state. So what did you mean by that statement then? Can you clarify this statement please, as it looks like a suggestion for ethnic cleansing to me.
Also, why should Palestinians move to other states. Why should they not stay in there homes, and have the same rights as everyone else? I see no reason why they should move personally. What are the reason you think they should move for?
Also, you didn't answer my question. Do you believe, that Jews and Palestinians should have equal rights? Its a simple question, either yes you believe they should have equal rights, or not they shouldn't have equal rights. So can I please get an answer on this.0 -
they can move if they want, suggesting the free movement of people and you linking it with ethnic cleansing is laughable.So can you clarify your statement here then:
You clearly say Palestinian can move to Muslim states, and that Israel should be kept a Jewish state. So what did you mean by that statement then? Can you clarify this statement please, as it looks like a suggestion for ethnic cleansing to me.
I said israel should pull out of palestine did i not?Also, why should Palestinians move to other states. Why should they not stay in there homes, and have the same rights as everyone else? I see no reason why they should move personally. What are the reason you think they should move for?
Of course they should. A lot of the Palestinians living in Israel proper (not in flash zones) have these rights already.Also, you didn't answer my question. Do you believe, that Jews and Palestinians should have equal rights? Its a simple question, either yes you believe they should have equal rights, or not they shouldn't have equal rights. So can I please get an answer on this.0 -
A time and a reason are not the same thing.
They can be.So to answer my question: I never denied the HGP. I didn't. If its a straight question just answer it.
I did answer your question, you did not deny the findings of the Human Genome project. You just bother addressing it.By definition, by the restraints of lanuguage and science, what Israel does is not racist, it is religiously discriminatory. No amount of you repeating yourself will change this fact.
You will find that what Israel does is racist. This is a fact, that no amount of denial will change. By any reasonable definition, Israels treatment of the Palestinians is racism, and to say otherwise has no basis in fact or reality.It conjours thoughts of racism in the public domain.
No one thinks of religion when they think of apartheid, why would they? Whereas everyone thinks of religion when discussing the middle east, lending further weight to my argument.
You are talking nonsense here. Apartheid literally means separation, so separation along Religious or racial grounds is no different.Where have I minimized the actions of Israel?
**EDIT**
You have done so several times:
Post 595
Post 603
Post 609
Post 598
When, Israel does the exact same thing as the Palestinians, you dismiss them as not being comparable, and attempt to minimize examples of some Israeli teaching there children hatred.0 -
they can move if they want, suggesting the free movement of people and you linking it with ethnic cleansing is laughable.
Great, so they should only move if they choose to do so. Why did you say that in response to my post, where I asked the following questions then:wes wrote:Also, if Israel is to keep all the land should the Palestinians be given equal rights? Also, how do you think Zionists will react, if Palestinians vote for the creation of a state of all its citizens, as opposed to a Jewish one?
So in response to the above, you suggest that the Palestinians can move, and that Israel should remain a Jewish state. Why shouldn't Palestinians in Israel, ask for Israel to be a state of all its citizens? Why should they have to move to another state? Why should they not have the right to live in a state, that exists to service all its citizens, and not one chosen ethnic group. The simple fact is that the concept of a Jewish state, is inherently discriminatory against others.I said israel should pull out of palestine did i not?
You also suggested that Israel keep all the land earlier as well, and my post was replying to that point, and I was asking question on the basis of you earlier suggestion of Israel keep all of the land.Of course they should. A lot of the Palestinians living in Israel proper (not in flash zones) have these rights already.
Well, they don't have equal rights, and I have already established that already several times in this thread. The concept of a Jewish state is inherently discriminatory.0 -
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Right.They can be.
From Oxford:You are talking nonsense here. Apartheid literally means separation, so separation along Religious or racial grounds is no different.
"Name given in South Africa to the segregation of the inhabitants of European descent from the non-European (Coloured or mixed, Bantu, Indian, etc.); applied also to any similar movement elsewhere, to other forms of racial separation."
Considering you operate in a land of your own definitions and insist on accepting Israel's word when in any other situation you would cast it aside, I also have a definition for racial:
"Arising from or relating to ethnicity or difference in race",
As many Jews are racially arab, this would mean under a racist system they too would be discriminated against. Are arab jews discriminated against? No, because it is not implimented on racial lines.
No matter what you or Israel says, they operate a system of relgious discrimination. I find it so funny that you would normally question everything that Israel says/does yet here you cling to it for dear life!
You should have no problem backing up your claim with some evidence so.In every post on here.0 -
Obviously im referring to a two-state situation. Where by Israel withdraws from gaza/westbank completely.Great, so they should only move if they choose to do so. Why did you say that in response to my post, where I asked the following questions then:
So in response to the above, you suggest that the Palestinians can move, and that Israel should remain a Jewish state. Why shouldn't Palestinians in Israel, ask for Israel to be a state of all its citizens? Why should they have to move to another state? Why should they not have the right to live in a state, that exists to service all its citizens, and not one chosen ethnic group. The simple fact is that the concept of a Jewish state, is inherently discriminatory against others.
You also suggested that Israel keep all the land earlier as well, and my post was replying to that point, and I was asking question on the basis of you earlier suggestion of Israel keep all of the land.
Well, they don't have equal rights, and I have already established that already several times in this thread. The concept of a Jewish state is inherently discriminatory.
So what if a jewish state is discriminatory, it is far less discriminatory than an islamic state, and if we are being honest, they are the only two likely outcomes. between the two i would choose jewish state any day.0 -
Right.
From Oxford:
"Name given in South Africa to the segregation of the inhabitants of European descent from the non-European (Coloured or mixed, Bantu, Indian, etc.); applied also to any similar movement elsewhere, to other forms of racial separation."
Fair enough, I was wrong in that one. So seeing as Israels discrimination is along racial lines they are clearly engaged in apartheid.Considering you operate in a land of your own definitions and insist on accepting Israel's word when in any other situation you would cast it aside, I also have a definition for racial:
"Arising from or relating to ethnicity or difference in race",
Race is social construct. In Israel they consider Jews to be race, this is a social construct, and as such fits in the above definition.
**EDIT**
Oh btw, ethnicity:From answers.com:
ethnicity
n.
1. Ethnic character, background, or affiliation.
2. An ethnic group.
The only working general definition of ethnicity is that it involves the common consciousness of shared origins and traditions.
The Greek ethnos is variously translated ‘tribe’ or ‘nation’ and its meaning can be taken as being some way between the two. Ethnicity is the quality of belonging to an ethnic group. But the question of what is an ethnic group, as opposed to any other kind of group, is one which permits no simple answer. Ethnic groups are not races, since ethnicity can be more precisely defined than race or even logically independent: Serbs and Croats are also Slavs, and a Jew might be black or white. Nor does membership of an ethnic group relate a person necessarily to a particular territory in the way that nationality does. Nevertheless, ‘ethnic conflict’ can be the same thing as conflict between nations or races as it can also be conflict between religious groups. Ethnic conflict in Northern Ireland (‘Catholic’ and ‘Protestant’), Lebanon (where Christian Arabs have been in conflict with Muslim Arabs), and in the Balkans (where Orthodox Serbs differ from Catholic Croats and from Muslims principally in terms of religion) are all conflicts primarily identified by religious affiliation. Language, for the Basques, Welsh, or Georgians, for example, is a more important badge of ethnicity than race, nationality, or religion.
Click here for full article
So as per your own definition, what Israel does is racism, as Palestinians and Israeli are ethnic groups.
**EDIT**As many Jews are racially arab, this would mean under a racist system they too would be discriminated against. Are arab jews discriminated against? No, because it is not implimented on racial lines.
They are discriminated against, as are Ethiopian Jews. Now, there discrimination is not as bad as Palestinians of course. Also, your own definition or race supports my position btw.No matter what you or Israel says, they operate a system of relgious discrimination. I find it so funny that you would normally question everything that Israel says/does yet here you cling to it for dear life!
Your continued denial of the fact of Israel racism is pretty funny.
Also, you are clearly not reading my posts. Once again, race is a social construct. Israel considers Jews to be race, and this is a social construct. You accept the fact that Israel considers Jews to be a race, so I find your constant denial of racism to be rather strange.
Also, I do question what Israel does quite a bit, but as you have already agreed, Israel considers Jews to be a race, and this is well known fact, which neither of us disputes, and this is the basis of my arguement. So its hardly strange I would mention this fact, that we both agree on in my arguement. I find it odd that you would consider this any kind of issue.
Once again, you claims of Israel not being racist, is simply factually incorrect. Your denial is based on the desire to avoid the accurate charge of apartheid. Sadly for Israel, those who know apartheid better than either you or me, have called Israel an apartheid state. One such example is Desmond Tutu. I already btw, posted a link earlier in the thread, where he called Israel an apartheid state.You should have no problem backing up your claim with some evidence so.
Done in the edit above.0 -
Obviously im referring to a two-state situation. Where by Israel withdraws from gaza/westbank completely.
What about East Jerusalem? That is also occupied.So what if a jewish state is discriminatory, it is far less discriminatory than an islamic state, and if we are being honest, they are the only two likely outcomes. between the two i would choose jewish state any day.
I personally disagree with your statement above. To suggest that there are only 2 realistic outcomes, is nonsense. A state that respects all its citizens is perfectly possible, and I find it disturbing that anyone would support discrimination against any group, even in false binary narrative as presented above.
I see no good reason for anyone to be discriminated against. I also see no good reason why Palestinians or anyone else should accept this discrimination.0 -
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Hi Scofflaw,The poster Nodin is not called "Noddy", nor is wes called "wuz". Using a distortion of their username to insult them is both obvious and, like all insults, unacceptable.
moderately,
Scofflaw
Yes, it was indeed done moderately and I thank you.
I was of course pulling their legs a little, deeming it appropriate,
but happily accept that this is not quite in order so will not do it here again !
I do hope that they respond to the questions I pose re the obvious apartheid
operated by the palestinians between the elite and the ordinary palestinians,
in the territories still under overall Israeli control, thus coming within the remit of the thread.
What about it guys? Nodin and wes ??
What too about the apartheid operated by Hamas against gays and other minorities ? What about anymore's questions re the intra-Islamic apartheid re Sunni and Shia muslims? Why no reply there either??
What about SS's incisive comments and questions that you two boyos significantly continually to ignore and try to avoid with additional questions of your own??0 -
What about it guys? Nodin and wes ??
After the personal insults, I won't be replying to your posts. I have better things to do, than talk to people, who hurl insults my way. So I am done.
**EDIT**
Also, I asked you several question earlier, which you did not bother to answer or address. Seeing, as you refuse to do me the common courtesy of answering my questions, in addtion to the personal insults, I see no reason why I should bother with anything you post, or addressing anything you ask. As I said earlier, I am done. I simply have better things to do than answer questions to someone who insults me, and doesn't answer questions asked of them.
**EDIT**0 -
What you just provided clearly says that ethnicity is not race... so how do you then turn around and conclude what Israel does is racism!!!Race is social construct. In Israel they consider Jews to be race, this is a social construct, and as such fits in the above definition.
So as per your own definition, what Israel does is racism, as Palestinians and Israeli are ethnic groups.
**EDIT**
Tried to seach "jewish race" on the Israeli government website, surprisly those two words never came up beside each other:
http://search1.gov.il/govilt?query=jewish+race&lang=en&language=en&x=20&y=9
Can you offer evidence for this please?They are discriminated against, as are Ethiopian Jews. Now, there discrimination is not as bad as Palestinians of course.
Funny too because the first search of the State of Israel website for racism shows up a site which says "sites preech racism or anti-semitism"... Showing that not even Israel considers racism and anti-semtism the same thing, briliant! meaning that they operate a distinction between racial and religious discrimination:Also, you are clearly not reading my posts. Once again, race is a social construct. Israel considers Jews to be race, and this is a social construct. You accept the fact that Israel considers Jews to be a race, so I find your constant denial of racism to be rather strange.
http://search1.gov.il/govilt?lang=en&language=en&query=racism site:www.gov.il
My point is that what Israel says and does are two different things. Even if it did claim racial discrimination, what it is doing is religious. Ive never had such a hard time convincing someone that Israel is wrong!Also, I do question what Israel does quite a bit, but as you have already agreed, Israel considers Jews to be a race, and this is well known fact, which neither of us disputes, and this is the basis of my arguement. So its hardly strange I would mention this fact, that we both agree on in my arguement. I find it odd that you would consider this any kind of issue.
Ah so you have come full circle and admitted to an earlier question of mine that racial discrimination holds more weight in the public eye than religious discrimination... I was wondering when you would admit it.Once again, you claims of Israel not being racist, is simply factually incorrect. Your denial is based on the desire to avoid the accurate charge of apartheid. Sadly for Israel, those who know apartheid better than either you or me, have called Israel an apartheid state.0 -
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What you just provided clearly says that ethnicity is not race... so how do you then turn around and conclude what Israel does is racism!!!
Tried to seach "jewish race" on the Israeli government website, surprisly those two words never came up beside each other:
http://search1.gov.il/govilt?query=jewish+race&lang=en&language=en&x=20&y=9
Funny too because the first search of the State of Israel website for racism shows up a site which says "sites preech racism or anti-semitism"... Showing that not even Israel considers racism and anti-semtism the same thing, briliant! meaning that they operate a distinction between racial and religious discrimination:
http://search1.gov.il/govilt?lang=en&language=en&query=racism site:www.gov.il
Funny too because the first search of the State of Israel website for racism shows up a site which says "sites preech racism or anti-semitism"... Showing that not even Israel considers racism and anti-semtism the same thing, briliant! meaning that they operate a distinction between racial and religious discrimination:
http://search1.gov.il/govilt?lang=en...n&query=racism site:www.gov.il
My point is that what Israel says and does are two different things. Even if it did claim racial discrimination, what it is doing is religious. Ive never had such a hard time convincing someone that Israel is wrong!
Oh dear, this is getting silly:
You provided the follow definition of apartheid:From Oxford:
"Name given in South Africa to the segregation of the inhabitants of European descent from the non-European (Coloured or mixed, Bantu, Indian, etc.); applied also to any similar movement elsewhere, to other forms of racial separation."
You then provide this defintion of racial:I also have a definition for racial:
"Arising from or relating to ethnicity or difference in race",
I then provide this definition of ethnicity:From answers.com:
ethnicity
n.
1. Ethnic character, background, or affiliation.
2. An ethnic group.
The only working general definition of ethnicity is that it involves the common consciousness of shared origins and traditions.
The Greek ethnos is variously translated ‘tribe’ or ‘nation’ and its meaning can be taken as being some way between the two. Ethnicity is the quality of belonging to an ethnic group. But the question of what is an ethnic group, as opposed to any other kind of group, is one which permits no simple answer. Ethnic groups are not races, since ethnicity can be more precisely defined than race or even logically independent: Serbs and Croats are also Slavs, and a Jew might be black or white. Nor does membership of an ethnic group relate a person necessarily to a particular territory in the way that nationality does. Nevertheless, ‘ethnic conflict’ can be the same thing as conflict between nations or races as it can also be conflict between religious groups. Ethnic conflict in Northern Ireland (‘Catholic’ and ‘Protestant’), Lebanon (where Christian Arabs have been in conflict with Muslim Arabs), and in the Balkans (where Orthodox Serbs differ from Catholic Croats and from Muslims principally in terms of religion) are all conflicts primarily identified by religious affiliation. Language, for the Basques, Welsh, or Georgians, for example, is a more important badge of ethnicity than race, nationality, or religion.
Now, your own definition or racial includes ethnicity, which I point out would include the Israeli's and Palestinians. So as per your own provided defintion, ethnic groups are also racial groups. So, as per your provided defintion of racial, yes Israel is racist, and Israel is also an apartheid state, as it has system of seperation between to racial groups (Israeli's and Palestinians, are both racial groups, as per your provided defintion).
So once again, I have shown you to be wrong, and used the defintions provided by you.
Now care to address, the points I have raised, as opposed to dismissing them as per usual. I have used your definitions, and I am confused, as to why you deny simple facts.
Also, again if you look at Israel right to return law, they clearly define Jews in terms of race, as well as Religion.
Now, your point regarding Religion make no sense, considering your provided definitions of both Apartheid and racial, and showed very clearly how Palestinians and Israelis are considered racial groups under your own provided defintion. So once again the fact provided by you, show you to be wrong. So enough with the denialism, its silly.Can you offer evidence for this please?
Ethiopian community hit hard by discrimination
Haredi school network fined for discriminating against SephardimAh so you have come full circle and admitted to an earlier question of mine that racial discrimination holds more weight in the public eye than religious discrimination... I was wondering when you would admit it.
I did no such thing:wes wrote:Once again, you claims of Israel not being racist, is simply factually incorrect. Your denial is based on the desire to avoid the accurate charge of apartheid. Sadly for Israel, those who know apartheid better than either you or me, have called Israel an apartheid state.
You are clearly reading things, I have never typed.0 -
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Boo hoo ! I am of course devastated...............boo hoo hoo !After the personal insults, I won't be replying to your posts. I have better things to do, than talk to people, who hurl insults my way. So I am done.
**EDIT**
Also, I asked you several question earlier, which you did not bother to answer or address. Seeing, as you refuse to do me the common courtesy of answering my questions, in addtion to the personal insults, I see no reason why I should bother with anything you post, or addressing anything you ask. As I said earlier, I am done. I simply have better things to do than answer questions to someone who insults me, and doesn't answer questions asked of them.
**EDIT**
But as for not answering questions ??
I am sure this false allegation qualifies for a gold medal under the pot calling the pan black stakes !
I am sure SS and Anymore are as amused as I am at this orwellian twist !
As for having something better to do? You seem to spend your life on the thread these days.
I suspect it is I rather than you who has better things to do than engage in battles of wits with
almost unarmed opponents !0 -
Well if there was one state declared in 1948, and no second state, then surely that means it is an internal conflict.
No, it does not. There are clear borders, internationally recognised, for the state of Israel. The West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem, Gaza and the rest of the OT are outside them.
Israel is the de facto authority there, however, due to it's military occupation. In many ways Israel treats these areas as if they were a part of Israel, even though it's only officially annexed Arab East Jerusalem. In none of the OT are Palestinians given the same rights or protections as the Israeli colonists therein. Thus the label of "apartheid".Irlandese wrote:What too about (......) Why no reply there either??
That was all dealt with earlier. I suggest you read through the thread.Irlandese wrote:Boo hoo ! I am of course devastated...............boo hoo hoo !
But as for not answering questions ??
I am sure this false allegation qualifies for a gold medal under the pot calling the pan black stakes !
I am sure SS and Anymore are as amused as I am at this orwellian twist !
As for having something better to do? You seem to spend your life on the thread these days.
I suspect it is I rather than you who has better things to do than engage in battles of wits with
almost unarmed opponents !
I fail to see what that adds to the discussion.0 -
My whole point is that it is not racial or ethnic, it is religious. Which i have maintained all along.Now, your own definition or racial includes ethnicity, which I point out would include the Israeli's and Palestinians. So as per your own provided defintion, ethnic groups are also racial groups. So, as per your provided defintion of racial, yes Israel is racist, and Israel is also an apartheid state, as it has system of seperation between to racial groups (Israeli's and Palestinians, are both racial groups, as per your provided defintion).
There is a difference between racial and religious discrimination which you refuse to accept.So once again, I have shown you to be wrong, and used the defintions provided by you.
Being Jewish does not make you part of a race, not matter if Israel or you considers it so. Stop repeating thatNow care to address, the points I have raised, as opposed to dismissing them as per usual. I have used your definitions, and I am confused, as to why you deny simple facts.
Also, again if you look at Israel right to return law, they clearly define Jews in terms of race, as well as Religion.
Now, your point regarding Religion make no sense, considering your provided definitions of both Apartheid and racial, and showed very clearly how Palestinians and Israelis are considered racial groups under your own provided defintion. So once again the fact provided by you, show you to be wrong. So enough with the denialism, its silly.
the Israel right of return law says being jewish is a race, I have rejected it from the start as being wrong.
The difference is you can change you religion, you cannot change you race, you are born with it. Israel right of return law accepts Jews who have converted, meaning that it is religiously based and not based on race, as someone cannot change their race.
You just accused me of trying to avoid the term apartheid, why would i want to deny its use?I did no such thing:
You are clearly reading things, I have never typed.0 -
With everything you have said in previous threads, do you honestly believe Israel will turn around and say "oh hold on, we are not a Jewish state anymore", do you honestly believe that?I personally disagree with your statement above. To suggest that there are only 2 realistic outcomes, is nonsense.
I would rather two secular states but I'm realistic and accept it won't happen.0 -
With everything you have said in previous threads, do you honestly believe Israel will turn around and say "oh hold on, we are not a Jewish state anymore", do you honestly believe that?
I would rather two secular states but I'm realistic and accept it won't happen.
The White South African's did exactly that. So why not the Israeli's and Palestinains. The current situation, has only resulted in death, hatred, and discrimination for all involved to varying degree's. Seems to me moving away fro that paradigm is common sense approach for all invovled.0 -
was it not jordan and egypt who created those borders? effectively taking the land off israel?No, it does not. There are clear borders, internationally recognised, for the state of Israel.
As was said previously, the term apartheid is based on race, many words change meaning over time but "religious apartheid" would be more suited.Israel is the de facto authority there, however, due to it's military occupation. In many ways Israel treats these areas as if they were a part of Israel, even though it's only officially annexed Arab East Jerusalem. In none of the OT are Palestinians given the same rights or protections as the Israeli colonists therein. Thus the label of "apartheid".0 -
My whole point is that it is not racial or ethnic, it is religious. Which i have maintained all along.
There is a difference between racial and religious discrimination which you refuse to accept.
Being Jewish does not make you part of a race, not matter if Israel or you considers it so. Stop repeating that
the Israel right of return law says being jewish is a race, I have rejected it from the start as being wrong.
The difference is you can change you religion, you cannot change you race, you are born with it. Israel right of return law accepts Jews who have converted, meaning that it is religiously based and not based on race, as someone cannot change their race.
Again, you rejecting Israels law is irrelevant, unless Israel rejects this. They are running things along racial lines plain and simple.
Again, I used the definition you provided of a racial group, and showed tha both Palestinian and Israelis would fall under your provided defintion. Now how about addressing this?
So here I go again;
You provided the follow definition of apartheid:From Oxford:
"Name given in South Africa to the segregation of the inhabitants of European descent from the non-European (Coloured or mixed, Bantu, Indian, etc.); applied also to any similar movement elsewhere, to other forms of racial separation."
Then you posted the following defintion of racial:I also have a definition for racial:
"Arising from or relating to ethnicity or difference in race",
The above includes ethnicity, which I then provide an defintion for:From answers.com:
ethnicity
n.
1. Ethnic character, background, or affiliation.
2. An ethnic group.
The only working general definition of ethnicity is that it involves the common consciousness of shared origins and traditions.
The Greek ethnos is variously translated ‘tribe’ or ‘nation’ and its meaning can be taken as being some way between the two. Ethnicity is the quality of belonging to an ethnic group. But the question of what is an ethnic group, as opposed to any other kind of group, is one which permits no simple answer. Ethnic groups are not races, since ethnicity can be more precisely defined than race or even logically independent: Serbs and Croats are also Slavs, and a Jew might be black or white. Nor does membership of an ethnic group relate a person necessarily to a particular territory in the way that nationality does. Nevertheless, ‘ethnic conflict’ can be the same thing as conflict between nations or races as it can also be conflict between religious groups. Ethnic conflict in Northern Ireland (‘Catholic’ and ‘Protestant’), Lebanon (where Christian Arabs have been in conflict with Muslim Arabs), and in the Balkans (where Orthodox Serbs differ from Catholic Croats and from Muslims principally in terms of religion) are all conflicts primarily identified by religious affiliation. Language, for the Basques, Welsh, or Georgians, for example, is a more important badge of ethnicity than race, nationality, or religion.
So, seeing as your own defintion of racial includes ethnicity, and as per my own provided defintion of ethnicity, Palestinain and Israeli's are racial groups. Now, how about addressing this point, and not ignoring it, as you have in the last few posts. I won't be dropping this.You just accused me of trying to avoid the term apartheid, why would i want to deny its use?
I have no idea what you are talking about.0 -
There was nothing unique about white south africans that was worth holding on to. there are other dutch speaking, english speaking, white nations around the world. there is only one jewish hebrew speaking nation, the desire to preserve it will be a lot greater.The White South African's did exactly that. So why not the Israeli's and Palestinains. The current situation, has only resulted in death, hatred, and discrimination for all involved to varying degree's. Seems to me moving away fro that paradigm is common sense approach for all invovled.
Those are the reasons why Israel will not renage on its "jewish state" status. Not that it matters, Israel is the only place in the region where sexual, speech, information and media freedom is garenteed.0 -
There was nothing unique about white south africans that was worth holding on to. there are other dutch speaking, english speaking, white nations around the world. there is only one jewish hebrew speaking nation, the desire to preserve it will be a lot greater.
Well, there current course of action doesn't really seem to be protecting anything at all, and has just resulted in a permanent state of conflict. Seem that there tactics have failed.Those are the reasons why Israel will not renage on its "jewish state" status. Not that it matters, Israel is the only place in the region where sexual, speech, information and media freedom is garenteed.
Media freedom, and speech are by no mean guranteed. Also, all the racism and religous discriminations, shows that Israel is no better than her neighbours.
The only country in the neighbourhood, that is even close to what you describe is Lebanon, but they also have there own set of issues.0 -
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Boo hoo ! I am of course devastated...............boo hoo hoo !
You are making no sense what so ever.But as for not answering questions ??
I am sure this false allegation qualifies for a gold medal under the pot calling the pan black stakes !
I asked several questions in the following post:
Post 571
Can you please show me where you answered the questions I posed to you. I have already checked btw, and you did not answer a single question, I asked. So, I am asking your to retract the above false statement regarding me, or I will have to report your post for once again saying something false about me.As for having something better to do? You seem to spend your life on the thread these days.
I suspect it is I rather than you who has better things to do than engage in battles of wits with
almost unarmed opponents !
More irrelevant nonsense.0
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