Head Shop Fire

badinfleunce

I believe this whole area should be tidied up and licensed. This is a huge industry and judging by the anount of people in the q at the South William St. shop last night the demand is literally out the door.

If they were licensed and regulated wherby the substances being sold had to have the ingredients or chemical makeup on the packaging at least this information would be available to the user and would clean up this whole area.

Bye Bye Drug cartels and drug dealers who cut up their drugs with whatever they can to rip off the drug user.

Its like the end of Prohibition in the states and the damage this done to the bootleggers and Mafia. Their illegal businesses became non existent after the ratification of the Twenty-first Amendment in 1933 which ended prohibition.

At the end of Prohibition, some supporters openly admitted its failure. A quote from a letter, written in 1932 by wealthy industrialist John D. Rockefeller, Jr., states:

When Prohibition was introduced, I hoped that it would be widely supported by public opinion and the day would soon come when the evil effects of alcohol would be recognized. I have slowly and reluctantly come to believe that this has not been the result. Instead, drinking has generally increased; the speakeasy(an establishment which illegally sold alcoholic beverages during the period of United States history known as Prohibition) has replaced the saloon (PUB); a vast army of lawbreakers has appeared; many of our best citizens have openly ignored Prohibition; respect for the law has been greatly lessened; and crime has increased to a level never seen before.

Why cant we learn from this?

End the Gangland murders,the illegal drug trade and the crimes associated with it and let the government profit from this hugely profitable industry.

Cheap Thrills!

penguin88 wrote: »

Ok so it's not legal to be sold for human consumption. Can I ask just as I haven't seen any meph products, would it say mephedrone on the label?

No, it would not.

latenia

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/firefighters-find-8364500000-in-head-shop-safe-2062798.html

It's disgraceful that this is being reported in a similiar manner to some drug squad/CAB raid. The Garda or fireman who leaked this private commercial information should be sacked.

NismoK11

haha gotta love this country :rolleyes:

bonerm

latenia wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/firefighters-find-8364500000-in-head-shop-safe-2062798.html

Article wrote:

The money is being held by gardai for "safe keeping"

Which in English means there was actually €800,000 in the safe.

Pace2008

penguin88 wrote: »

But regardless, mescaline is an amphetamine derivative and really does not have a comparatively high LD50.

Mescaline's LD50 is listed as about 800-1200mg/kg. It's not nearly as high as that of the tryptamines but you could still take ten times the amount needed for a strong trip without fear of overdosing. You'd need to be intentionally trying to kill yourself which is why there has been no confirmed cases of fatal overdoses attributed to the drug. In any case, just because it's possible to OD on the substance doesn't render it a poison in the practical sense of the term. There are no negative long-term physiological effects associated with mescaline.

Think you're using abuse potential in the wrong sense here. Look at heroin, a drug with one of the highest abuse potentials, so you'd expect no comedown effects, right? Well the opposite is the case, some of the most severe physical withdrawal symptoms

Comedown and withdrawal are not the same thing. The comedown from opiates is not severe.

Kurtosis

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

No, it would not.

Thanks for that. This is one reason why I think regulation of the area should be introduced. A vulnerable individual on antidepressants could easily go in a buy some of this stuff and even if they knew full well mephedrone might mess with their medicine may not recognise whatever name is used on the label. There needs to be some sort of safety net.

Kurtosis

rubadub wrote: »

They go by their own standards & reputation, if I go to my mates house and his mother offers me a bit of chicken I will take it, I am not worried that her kitchen is not subject to health inspector audits. The very fact the guy had €500,000 in the safe would suggest people are not too worried about the regulations you think are so important.

Another erroneous example. You're comparing food to psychoactive substances, health and safety isn't the concern, it's what's in the product you're taking, how much of it and what else is there as well.

Not nearly as ridiculous as your refusal to see comparisons between 2 outlets for recreational drugs.

Show me where I refused to see comparisons between the two. They have things in common. They both sell products that contain substances that will give a psychotropic effect. They both sell things that are open to abuse. You're the one who refutes any difference between them that I suggest.

Yes, so are you going to answer it? the point is headshops DO currently sell legal regulated drugs, so do pubs. I am still trying to figure out a definition of "headshop", and wonder what your primary criteria is to define one. Is the moment they sell intoxicants "not fit for human consumption" if so tesco & woodies are headshops.

No, they will not be the same. One will be a licensed public house that sells alcohol and also plant food (which happens to contain mephedrone), the other will just be a shop that sells plant food, bath salts etc. What legal regulated drugs do headshops sell? My primary criteria would be defining the compounds present in these products and allowing them to only be sold in certain establishments i.e. headshops, whether for plant or human consumption.

Why are you so certain that you cannot buy it in any pharmacy? Have you ever even asked? I don't see what the big deal is.

I have experience working in pharmacy. Could be available in some pharmacy here, but not legally. No big deal.

Simple, its a controlled substance now, just like MDMA was only banned in the 80's, people were freely using it up to that point. Caffeine is not too popular as a recreational drug taken in high doses to emulate an amphetamine stimulant high it is quite unpleasant in high doses. You could say the uncontrolled abusers ruined it for everybody, so now the military who took amphetamine in small controlled doses now have to suffer and use a less suitable drug with worse side effects.

Sorry but I find your reasoning a bit circular. None of it makes amphetamine use safer than caffeine use. If the army really wanted to still amphetamine there is nothing stopping them.

NO, that is completely faulty logic, if you really cannot understand the concept I will explain, but I think you are just taking the piss.

I was just going on what you had said previously, I might not be following what you're saying. I'm not taking the p so please explain away.

Kurtosis

Pace2008 wrote: »

Mescaline's LD50 is listed as about 800-1200mg/kg. It's not nearly as high as that of the tryptamines but you could still take ten times the amount needed for a strong trip without fear of a overdosing. You'd need to be intentionally trying to kill yourself which is why there has been no confirmed cases of fatal overdoses attributed to the drug. In any case, just because it's possible to OD on the substance doesn't render it a poison in the practical sense of the term. There are no negative long-term physiological effects associated with mescaline.

Is that a human LD50? I can't access some sources I was trying to at the moment but a quick google for me gives quite different LD50 values determined experimentally in rodents. I never said mescaline did have any long term physiological effects, any evidence to back up that it doesn't?

Comedown and withdrawal are not the same thing. The comedown from opiates is not severe.

Sorry, I must be taking the wrong meaning of comedown. I would be more familiar with using withdrawal symptoms. What's the difference?

honeymonster

I read about this today. WTF was he doing with 500,000k had no idea these shops were so profitable.

Overheal

I just find it Delicious that some of the people who support banning these products also admit to taking these and other already illegal substances as part of their anecdotal evidence as to why they should be banned.

The zest comes from the fact that you've gotten your hands on and consumed illegal substances: whats going to change when these substances are banned, except that the business will be held under the table, not over the table?

Run_to_da_hills

honeymonster wrote: »

I read about this today. WTF was he doing with 500,000k had no idea these shops were so profitable.

People shouldn't jump to conclusions where the cash came from, It could very well be legit, proceeds from a property sale, lifesavings, etc. It will be up to the authorities to investigate the source of this.

I am sure plenty of others would have been glad to have kept their investments locked up in safes under floors rather than trust in many of the legitimate banking institutions that have blown so much away recently.

Overheal

Hell didnt we have a discussion last year that the Dunnes could do 1m in a Day?

It sounds like a lot of money to have in a back safe, when you're a consumer. In the world of business ownership its a very healthy Take, but its hardly Obscene or Dubious. We can do 10k a day just selling carpet installs. Who knows what kind of volume this Headshop was doing or how long the Back Safe had been left to Accumulate.

Abelloid

bonerm wrote: »

Which in English means there was actually €800,000 in the safe.

..or maybe €50k and €500k was the 'street value'.

The Pontiac

Pace2008 wrote: »

There are no negative long-term physiological effects associated with mescaline..

You are joking, right? I prefer a more sociable line of Charlie myself, but you're taking the piss here, surely? I'm well aware of what mescaline is btw. If there was ever a drug capable of 'long-term negative effects', it's bloody mescaline ffs.

Overheal

http://www.google.com/search?q=mescaline+long+term+effects&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

pampootie

penguin88 wrote: »

You're taking it out of context though. No ads on TV saying "Buy solpadeine for all your hangover needs", it is not marketed for curing alcohol withdrawal even though many people might use it for that.

This is a bit off-topic, but there aren't ads for Solpadeine at all on Irish TV. Codeine advertising isn't allowed under Irish regulation. Not that it matters at all when most Irish households have access to UK channels, and a vast amount of the public have a dependence on it.

The Pontiac

<Ollie> wrote: »

I prefer a more sociable line of Charlie myself.

That was meant to be "used to" btw..

boredofblackroc

It takes a long time for any product to be banned in this coutry sometimes years.....

Hauk

boredofblackroc wrote: »

It takes a long time for any product to be banned in this coutry sometimes years.....

No it doesn't. You should search Google about the event that lead to Mary Harney banning Psyilocybin cubensis("magic mushrooms") quite fast.

Kurtosis

pampootie wrote: »

This is a bit off-topic, but there aren't ads for Solpadeine at all on Irish TV. Codeine advertising isn't allowed under Irish regulation. Not that it matters at all when most Irish households have access to UK channels, and a vast amount of the public have a dependence on it.

Yeah sorry, I know. The poster I was responding to mentioned solpadeine specifically while talking about products being aimed at people to treat hangovers, hence why I said the above. But yeah, codeine being a CD5 MDA drug stops it being advertised. Momentarily lapse on my part there, sorry!

Pace2008

penguin88 wrote: »

Is that a human LD50? I can't access some sources I was trying to at the moment but a quick google for me gives quite different LD50 values determined experimentally in rodents.

I'll admit I'm going by the oral LD50 for rats, which may not be the most accurate measure but is the best indicator with the lack of data on humans. The fact that there have been no recorded fatal overdoses does suggest that there's a relatively wide margin between effective and fatal doses.

I never said mescaline did have any long term physiological effects,

You claimed that all drugs are poisons, which is just not true. If you'd said that all drugs are potentially harmful I'd have agreed with you.

any evidence to back up that it doesn't?

Any evidence to back up that it does? I have never read anywhere that mescaline can cause physical complications; even anti-drug sites don't try to suggest this, though like many psychedelics it has the potential to aggravate pre-existing mental conditions, and there is some anecdotal evidence of HPPD in users.

Sorry, I must be taking the wrong meaning of comedown. I would be more familiar with using withdrawal symptoms. What's the difference?

A comedown is simply the effects of a drug wearing off. You can experience a comedown with non-addictive drugs like MDMA and LSD. In order to experience withdrawal one has to be physically dependent on the drug.

Pace2008

<Ollie> wrote: »

You are joking, right? I prefer a more sociable line of Charlie myself, but you're taking the piss here, surely? I'm well aware of what mescaline is btw. If there was ever a drug capable of 'long-term negative effects', it's bloody mescaline ffs.

Is it possible you're thinking of methamphetamine? What's lead you to believe that mescaline is particularly harmful?

BTW. Meph is contraindicated with antidepressants which people should know.

I hadn't actually thought about that. I'm not sure what the interactions with Meph and antidepressants are but I know taking MDMA when on MAOIs can be fatal. Another reason why headshops need to include more detailed information on their products, even if the continue to sell them as plants feeders and bath salts.

boredofblackroc

penguin88 wrote: »

Yeah sorry, I know. The poster I was responding to mentioned solpadeine specifically while talking about products being aimed at people to treat hangovers, hence why I said the above. But yeah, codeine being a CD5 MDA drug stops it being advertised. Momentarily lapse on my part there, sorry!

Solpadieine is presription-only in the US, but here it's over the counter.
Quote from the Irish Timnes "It is the biggest selling over-the-counter product in Irish pharmacies, with retail sales of almost €12 million between June 2005 and June 2006." And I'm sure I read somewhere Ireland uses the most Codeine-based products of any European country.

boredofblackroc

Pace2008 wrote: »

I'll admit I'm going by the oral LD50 for rats, which may not be the most accurate measure but is the best indicator with the lack of data on humans. The fact that there have been no recorded fatal overdoses does suggest that there's a relatively wide margin between effective and fatal doses.

You claimed that all drugs are poisons, which is just not true. If you'd said that all drugs are potentially harmful I'd have agreed with you.

Any evidence to back up that it does? I have never read anywhere that mescaline can cause physical complications; even anti-drug sites don't try to suggest this, though like many psychedelics it has the potential to aggravate pre-existing mental conditions, and there is some anecdotal evidence of HPPD in users.

A comedown is simply the effects of a drug wearing off. You can experience a comedown with non-addictive drugs like MDMA and LSD. In order to experience withdrawal one has to be physically dependent on the drug.

A comedown is more like a like a slowing effect, with almost feelings of dissappointment or regret - no? but with none of the physicality of withdrawl.

The Pontiac

Pace2008 wrote: »

Is it possible you're thinking of methamphetamine? What's lead you to believe that mescaline is particularly harmful?

No not meth, mescaline. You said it has "no long-term physiological effects" - which I said if "there was ever a drug cable of this, its mescaline." You're clearly wrong, sorry.

I don't understand where you're going with fatal overdoses on mescaline, or even if this is possible or how it's relevant to the negative effects of the stuff.

Pace2008

<Ollie> wrote: »

No not meth, mescaline. You said it has "no long-term physiological effects" - which I said if "there was ever a drug cable of this, its mescaline." You're clearly wrong, sorry.

Really? What are they? I've never seen them documented anywhere. Could you point me towards your sources?

I don't understand where you're going with fatal overdoses on mescaline, or even if this is possible or how it's relevant to the negative effects of the stuff.

I was responding to another poster, not you, who stated that the LD50 of mescaline is low relative to LSD and mushrooms. This is true, but lethal overdose is still unheard of.

Kurtosis

Pace2008 wrote: »

I'll admit I'm going by the oral LD50 for rats, which may not be the most accurate measure but is the best indicator with the lack of data on humans.

Thanks, that'd explains the discrepancy, I was looking at intraperitoneal LD50s for rodents last night, hence the oral being higher.

You claimed that all drugs are poisons, which is just not true. If you'd said that all drugs are potentially harmful I'd have agreed with you.

You're arguing over semantics here. All drugs (and I don't mean drugs of abuse, I'm inlcuding all prescription drugs etc too) can be poisonous. They were defined in legislation as much up until very recently.

Any evidence to back up that it does?

Nope, haven't read any evidence to back up that it does, so that's why I didn't claim it does.

I have never read anywhere that mescaline can cause physical complications; even anti-drug sites don't try to suggest this, though like many psychedelics it has the potential to aggravate pre-existing mental conditions, and there is some anecdotal evidence of HPPD in users.

You stated very cleary earlier: "There are no negative long-term physiological effects associated with mescaline". Not having read anywhere that it does cause phyiological complications is not evidence.

A comedown is simply the effects of a drug wearing off. You can experience a comedown with non-addictive drugs like MDMA and LSD. In order to experience withdrawal one has to be physically dependent on the drug.

Thanks for the clarification. The original context this was used in was for alcohol.

Kurtosis

Pace2008 wrote: »

Another reason why headshops need to include more detailed information on their products, even if the continue to sell them as plants feeders and bath salts.

But this can't be done effectively if they do continue to be sold in these forms. What are they meant to put on the label? "Do not use if your plant is taking MAOIs or TCAs" or "Do not place in the water if you bath is on medications for its depression"?

Herbal Deity

psychological != physiological