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urban bird trapping: more common than you might think

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13

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    #62
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    Got to love some posters attitudes how it's fine for a person holding their point of view to interfere with other peoples business, then rant and rave about people who hold differing views going about their own business.

    Hypocrisy much?

    Hope ye get caught letting magpies and greycrows out :)


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    #63
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    Got to love some posters attitudes how it's fine for a person holding their point of view to interfere with other peoples business, then rant and rave about people who hold differing views going about their own business.

    Hypocrisy much?

    Hope ye get caught letting magpies and greycrows out :)

    Not sure which to go with:

    Very unclear opening sentence much?
    or
    Misuse of the word 'hypocrisy' much?


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    #64
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    dodderangler wrote: »
    Songbirds are declining
    Corvids are rapidly producing ( see where I'm going with this)
    Therefore they are doing some damage to the declining population as it is. Cats also do it and a very very small amount is done by the sparrowhawk. Yes we are responsible for the dropping in numbers but their numbers are not being helped by the ever risen population of corvids
    You have absolutely NO right to free them birds. That call bird in the trap is from a different area meaning when you released him He was more than likely mobbed and killed by the dominant group in the territory
    Sure you might aswell free all the animals in the zoo while your at it then.
    Look, you were not there and that dominant group and territory talk is nonsense. I'm a recently retired ranger so I know what I was doing and why I was doing it. The basic humane measures were not being adhered to in both cases, so I acted.

    Corvids and songbirds coexist as is expected in nature. Sparrowhawks take more birds in a year than Magpies. Magpies only predate songbirds for a few weeks per year and their impact is now PROVEN as benign. This subject has been covered here many times before.

    Anyway, apologies Mods if this is drifting off topic.


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    #65
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    dodderangler wrote: »
    These Larson traps are being used to help control them for likes of pheasants and other ground nesting birds..

    So you agree with killing native species to facilitate rearing an alien species for shooting?


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    #66
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    dodderangler wrote: »
    Its breaking the law because it is not his property to touch and pretty sure he will be trespassing in order to do it

    The trapped bird is nobody's property and the traps were on public property. Indeed one was in a special conservation area I was surveying. I can assure you I am well acquainted with all wildlife legislation.


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    #67
    Marcome21
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Marcome21


    Seems to me a lack of native Raptors(Buzzards) has led to the explosion of Corvids(crows) in this country. People who don't like Corvids(crows) would do well to protect our Buzzards and other Birds of Prey which kill Magpies, Hooded crows etc..

    Nature's balance.


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    #68
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    Not sure which to go with:

    Very unclear opening sentence much?
    or
    Misuse of the word 'hypocrisy' much?

    Go with which ever you like. Some fights are worth fighting, some not worth a thought. The attitudes of some on this thread would fall square into the latter.

    Carry on constable.


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    #69
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Marcome21 wrote: »
    Seems to me a lack of native Raptors(Buzzards) has led to the explosion of Corvids(crows) in this country. People who don't like Corvids(crows) would do well to protect our Buzzards and other Birds of Prey which kill Magpies, Hooded crows etc..

    Nature's balance.


    I was lucky enough to be with some rangers who were ringing Buzzard chicks and they showed me the nest contents - full of crows, rats and a bit of a rabbit!

    So I completely agree! Unfortunately theres a certain number of people who either don't realise this or refuse to listen!


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    #70
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    Go with which ever you like. .

    I'll go with both so ;)


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    #71
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Visitors from Britain back pre 1980 often commented on the number of rooks and jackdaws in Ireland and the lack of raptor. They simply filled the void left when we lost so many birds of prey. The big question is; if we get back in balance with corvids and raptors will we be back to square one with persecution of raptors as they take songbirds and game - the same argument currently against Corvids.


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    #72
    Capercaille
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭Capercaille


    Aniya Muscular Ointment wrote: »
    Visitors from Britain back pre 1980 often commented on the number of rooks and jackdaws in Ireland and the lack of raptor. They simply filled the void left when we lost so many birds of prey. The big question is; if we get back in balance with corvids and raptors will we be back to square one with persecution of raptors as they take songbirds and game - the same argument currently against Corvids.
    Yes. They have started legally destroying buzzard nests in England to "protect" Pheasants.


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    #73
    EireIceMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭EireIceMan


    Capercaille wrote: »
    Yes. They have started legally destroying buzzard nests in England to "protect" Pheasants.

    Link?


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    #74
    Capercaille
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭Capercaille


    EireIceMan wrote: »
    Link?
    http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/


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    #75
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    EireIceMan wrote: »
    Link?

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/401996/Unacceptable-Buzzard-nests-and-eggs-destroyed-to-increase-pheasant-shoots


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    #76
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/401996/Unacceptable-Buzzard-nests-and-eggs-destroyed-to-increase-pheasant-shoots

    An extremely regressive decision that went against the findings of every scientific study carried out on this issue as well as Nature Englands own work on this issue. It also only went public thanx to a FAO request by the RSPB who are likely along with many conservation bodies in the UK to seek a judicial review into the extremely dubious rational for the granting of this licence as the government body responsible appears to have failed to follow its own procedures in terms of gathering any independent evidence in this particular case or any proper justification under both British and EU laws concerning the protection of birds.


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    #77
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    There is a suggestion in some posts here that legal Corvid control by shooting and trapping should be considered the same way as the illegal persecution of raptors. And that Corvids and raptors are somehow interchangeable in their affect on a natural food chain/ecosystem, farmed landscape etc. These notions are simply wrong for the following reasons



    I'm in the Czech Republic atm and there is hardly any Corvids but loads of raptors of various species. Raptors are on top of the foodchain while corvids are second tier predator/generalists that have a very different affect on the ecology of an ecosystem and their(Corvids) unaturally vast numbers in Ireland and the problems they cause are a symptom of this differing ecology - one that is completely out of balance. I would also add that the populations of everything from corncrakes, songbirds like Whinchats etc. to gamebirds like Grey Partridge and Quail are far healthier in the Czech Republic then they are in this country which strongly suggests that an intact foodchain is an important factor in the health of an entire ecosystem.

    To underline my point, another fact is that Corvids can and do live at much higher densities than any raptor species, even in areas where the latter has never been subject to human persecution and has an intact habitat to exploit. EG. if you add up all the corvid pairs of various species in this country you have a population of many hundreds of thousands of pairs and probably exceeds one million pairs. Even before raptors in this country started to go into steep decline thanx to habitat loss and persecution, they never approached anything like those kind of numbers.

    To further underline this point the likes of Corvids such as Jackdaws, Rooks etc. have never been protected in this country and yet their population is probably higher than ever. In stark contrast up to half our raptors had become extinct with most of the rest barely hanging on up to very recently.


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    #78
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    @Birdnuts, I don't think the implication earlier on was that corvid control and illegal raptor persecution were on par, but that to allow for corvid control based on no good reason (i.e. in the name of songbird conservation) could lead to the control of raptors for no good reason (i.e. songbird conservation). Or even that just the perpetuation of the myth that corvid and raptor species are responsible for songbird declines is very dangerous. there was actually an article in a Wexford newspaper a few weeks back where a farmer was blaming buzzards for the decline of songbirds on his land - there was barely a single fact in the article and the farmer was either very confused or just outright telling lies, but plenty of people will believe it to be true which will be very damaging to buzzards, raptors and conservationists! Despite the fact that the buzzard was probably getting rid of plenty of corvids, rats and rabbits from the farmers land and actually doing him a favour!

    The removal of a few corvids in various parts of the country for a good and scientifically backed reason (i.e. to protect ground nesting birds or crop protection) is obviously completely different to the persecution of fragile raptor populations based on perceived conflict.


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    #79
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    Aniya Muscular Ointment wrote: »
    The trapped bird is nobody's property and the traps were on public property. Indeed one was in a special conservation area I was surveying. I can assure you I am well acquainted with all wildlife legislation.

    The trap in itself is someone's property Genius!


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    #80
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    Aniya Muscular Ointment wrote: »
    So you agree with killing native species to facilitate rearing an alien species for shooting?

    Are you trying to say pheasants are not native?


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    #81
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    dodderangler wrote: »
    The trap in itself is someone's property Genius!

    The trap would not have been damaged at all though, it'd be the exact same before as it would after, it'd just have no bird in it.
    dodderangler wrote: »
    Are you trying to say pheasants are not native?

    Presumably he is, because they aren't native.
    See the Birdwatch Ireland page on them here
    An introduced species from Asia, first introduced in the 16th century. Two races have been introduced to Ireland, but the race from China with its white neck ring has dominated.


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    #82
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    dodderangler wrote: »
    The trap in itself is someone's property Genius!

    And I did no harm to that property, genius!


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    #83
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    dodderangler wrote: »
    Are you trying to say pheasants are not native?

    Sweet Lord! Yes, Pheasants are an alien, introduced species! What on earth do you think they are, genius? The are in the same category as Grey Squirrels - or do you think them native as well?


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    #84
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    OP, could I suggest that you instal one of these hawk bird scarers in your own garden - run the line from tree to tree or chimney to tree, and as the wind blows, the "hawk" moves back and forth along the line:

    http://www.scarem.co.uk

    This terrifies prey birds like finches; even if they get to know that it's not a real hawk, the instinctive terror of a hovering hawk is so visceral that they can't bear to go near it.

    If no birds are coming near your and your neighbour's gardens, your neighbour will not have any more prey for his nasty trade.

    You might also ask the DSPCA to have a talk to him about whether it's legal to trap wild birds in Ireland.


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    #85
    Tiercel Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Tiercel Dave


    Quote:
    An introduced species from Asia, first introduced in the 16th century. Two races have been introduced to Ireland, but the race from China with its white neck ring has dominated.


    So Pheasants have been in Ireland longer than Magpies!
    Dave


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    #86
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Tiercel Dave wrote: »

    So Pheasants have been in Ireland longer than Magpies!
    Dave

    Yes indeed! But from what I can find, Magpies got here naturally, whereas Pheasants were introduced by humans and would/could never have gotten here naturally.

    Irish Examiner Article

    Birdwatch Ireland page
    Magpies were apparently first recorded in Wexford in 1676: a report of a flock of a dozen flying in over the sea. Breeding in Dublin was first noted in 1852


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    #87
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    OP, could I suggest that you instal one of these hawk bird scarers in your own garden - run the line from tree to tree or chimney to tree, and as the wind blows, the "hawk" moves back and forth along the line:

    http://www.scarem.co.uk

    This terrifies prey birds like finches; even if they get to know that it's not a real hawk, the instinctive terror of a hovering hawk is so visceral that they can't bear to go near it.

    If no birds are coming near your and your neighbour's gardens, your neighbour will not have any more prey for his nasty trade.

    You might also ask the DSPCA to have a talk to him about whether it's legal to trap wild birds in Ireland.
    This a totally perverted view of nature and an ecosystem. Hawks have to live too. Songbird numbers are balanced with their natural predators. Attitudes that protect garden or song birds to the detriment of predators is twisted and shows a complete misunderstanding of nature.


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    #88
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Tiercel Dave wrote: »
    Quote:
    An introduced species from Asia, first introduced in the 16th century. Two races have been introduced to Ireland, but the race from China with its white neck ring has dominated.


    So Pheasants have been in Ireland longer than Magpies!
    Dave

    Correct, but the really important difference is that pheasants are introduced while magpies are natural colonisers. Time is not a factor.


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    #89
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    Aniya Muscular Ointment wrote: »
    This a totally perverted view of nature and an ecosystem. Hawks have to live too. Songbird numbers are balanced with their natural predators. Attitudes that protect garden or song birds to the detriment of predators is twisted and shows a complete misunderstanding of nature.

    Pft; call me twisted, but call the bird-catcher's business finished if OP used one of these pretend-hawks!


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    #90
    LolaD
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭LolaD


    OpenYourEyes: I tried to message you but doesn't work since I created a new account and haven't got enough entries. Could you please msg me, it's something important to me. Thanks so much,


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    #91
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    Aniya Muscular Ointment wrote: »
    And I did no harm to that property, genius!

    Did you touch the property opening it up to release it?
    Then yes that is breaking the law
    Therefore you have no right to do it
    Whether you done harm to it or not you opened up a cage belonging to someone else so its THEIR property so you did break the law and have no right!
    And saying you were a park ranger means f all to Me as I've met park rangers that wouldn't know a chicken from a squirrel


    Also it may be the ring neck that is most popular but from what ive read pheasants were first introduced by the Normans in the 12th century to Ireland and been that long in this country I wouldn't consider them as foreign species anymore


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