Is there a market for a PROPER off road vehicle ?

Rovi

Behold, the mighty Volvo C303:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42P93B_GzGA

Portal axles with vacuum diff-locks, on leaf springs, and narrower than Unimog axles, so they're a relatively handy fit under Series Land-Rovers.

fonecrusher1

Their all rubbish, what you want is one oh these.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_slflBBZul4

CJhaughey

Think big, think Kamaz!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUj6VQTVndU

fonecrusher1

Which is better off road? A tracked vehicle (like a tank) or good old standard wheels with tyres?

CJhaughey

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Which is better off road? A tracked vehicle (like a tank) or good old standard wheels with tyres?

Depends on the terrain and the speed needed.
Light vehicles with wide tracks can go over very soft ground, ala Scorpion tanks or Kassbohrer snow groomers.
Wheels are a lot faster but prone to digging themselves in with injudicious use of the throttle on unsuitable terrain.

greenpeter

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Their all rubbish, what you want is one oh these.....

Don't know which is worse

101sean

Depends on the ground conditions, tracks are better in soft/rough ground and deep snow. There are also many types of track for different uses so it's a bit of a generalisation. Dublin Civil Defense are using an ex military Hagglunds BV206 in deep snow as seen in the press recently.

An example of wheels that could keep up with tanks though was the 1960s Alvis Stalwart HMLC, powered by a Rolls B81 straight 8 petrol (could swim too!) British Army had a fleet of these up to the 90s



Another failure in the off road stakes designed to take on tracks was the 8x8 Esarco originally built from Land Rover drive train parts and lingered on in a slow death with some sales through several owners up to the 90s.


BTW fonecrusher, I assume you were kidding :eek:

Slidey

101sean wrote: »

While I'm on a roll (should really be out cutting timber but it's raining ) here's one that technically wasn't a failure, the Austin Gipsy.

The Gypsy looks brilliant.

I think I should find one. Having the mod of 4x4 driving round in a Golf and a Combo should be a sackable offence!

peasant

go away with all those monster trucks ...behold the Puch Haflinger (Pinzgauers little brother) with a grandiose 22 bhp from an aircooled Fiat 500 engine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_xGc3hsvyI

If you get stuck with that, four strong men can lift it out


Tubular chassis, portal axles, low range gears, difflocks all round, 650 kg, 500 kg payload

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2wvFZDAIWs

peasant

Then again ...look at these machines. They're not just for faffing about, they are actually doing real work on steep alpine slopes that could previously only be cut by hand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGmhAvS6cfo

101sean

Haflingers were an awesome little vehicle, very rare now, last saw at a trial in the early 80s . Haflinger is Austrian for pony apparantly. Bit like a 4wd milk float that can climb mountains! The Pinzgauer uses a similar tubular backbone and swing axles as do Tatra Kolos trucks, brilliant engineering but expensive.

Slidey, you'll struggle to find a Gypsy, those AFS ones went for silly money. Bit like series one Landies, basket cases or v expensive!

greenpeter

[IMG][/IMG]

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Just wondering if a manufacturer were to build and market a Proper off roader( selectable diff locks, proper low range box, proper independant suspension etc) would it sell ?? Also any other ideas as to what spec/equipment a proper off roader should have ??

Would the Bowler Widlcat not fit the bill?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLpo7737fsI

fonecrusher1

greenpeter wrote: »

[IMG][/IMG]
Would the Bowler Widlcat not fit the bill?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLpo7737fsI

Yeah but isnt this vehicle more for competition trails ie; driving across moderately rough terrain as fast as possible?
As impressive as it is, im not sure how well it would get on in the real rough stuff.

101sean

That's the vehicle the Hamster yelled "I am a motoring god" in while doing 60mph off road. It's been surpassed by the Bowler Nemesis, RR Sport based, for doing the Dakar and the like. Designed for flat out racing, the original Tomcat is the modern trials motor (if you've money to spare!) Sadly the days of welding a bit of scaffold tube to an old series or Rangie seem to be long gone :rolleyes:

Slidey

Well I was just down the pub and met a guy I went to school and as it happens he has recently bought a Hagglunds BV206, it has a Ford V6 in it and he uses it for work bringing his crew across poor ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYm5USbSt8c

mossfort

i,ve seen one ot these around galway when they were doing the survey for the outer bypass. they were using it to transport equiptment across rough ground.

k974

only one post has mentioned the landcruiser 70 series
http://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-70-series?DCSext.LPLink=LC70|Model

how anyone can compare a defender to this is beyond me, the only serious advantage the defender has is off road, which is gone when you but the optional toyota diff locks in it.

i've posted on this forum before i do approx 70,000km plus a yr much of it off road on corrugated roads towing 3ton with another half ton on the back of my cruiser ute, in 40c plus temps 500km from anywhere. much of the talk people go on about defenders is from people who believe everything in top gear is gospel. defenders are worthless in the bush, mining companies, NGO's UN etc all use cruisers why for realability and build quality. you drive a defender or disco or range rover on the roads i drive and they'll be falling apart in 6months.

ask anyone who has driven to the cape, the canning stock route, across the simpson would they go in a Land rover every one of them will say no.

i actually need a 4wd my life depends on it, you break down in 40c plus 500-600km from anywehere, its dangerous never mind the cost of towin it out of there and the downtime, and my money ($70k in fact) of it is on the 79 series cruiser ute (pick up).

nothing land rover have produced can match the 4.5 V8 d4d , fair enough not for outright power the new 3.0td is the disco is serious power. but for 500,000 plus realability. besides that the engines all the defenders have been fitted with up to the 2.5 td5 wouldnt get out of their own way., aside from that proven realabiltiy of a large capacity diesel, the small engined new common rails whislt good power are not really 500,000km engines.

I've actully owned defender in ireland a td5 so i speak from expierence, its not a land rover bashing piece i wrote but based on fact and my expierence.


its all well and good saying richard hammond bought that and IF was to buy a proper 4x4 i'd buy a defender, when you need 100% realability and durability in testing conditions the cruiser wins every time.

i've posted a picture of my cruiser ute before on this forum, its got mud terrains, arb bull and brush bars, 12,000lb warn winch, lightforce spots, along with the standard 180l long range tank, snorkel and optional toyota diffl locks front and rear,

in the real world the defender, range rover and discos have been proven not to be worth a pinch of ****e, the only 4x4 that comes close to the cruiser is as posted before the 4.2 patrols, the 3.0 are a proven timebomb!

unimogs etc are diff i'm only comparing with normal 4x4s

101sean

I've already mentioned further up and elsewhere that a ROW spec Landcruiser or Patrol are amongst the ideal 4x4s, they're not readily available here though. All we get is bloated eurospec bling ones :mad:

Big lazy engines won't ever be sold here either, we've no choice but to have small high speed common rail diesels to meet euro emmissions regs and punitive tax regimes. The TDV8 in the Range Rover is possibly an exception but will never appear in a utility vehicle. The Td5 is the best diesel engine Land Rover produced and is very reliable with plenty of poke, I'd love a big V8 with no electronics but it's not going to happen.

I remember the picture of your truck, nice vehicle and ideal for where you are. Your reasons for owning are clear and you were doing well until the second last paragraph when you posted the usual generalisation. Unfortunately your market is one Land Rover are never likely to regain.

greenpeter

Slidey wrote: »

Well I was just down the pub and met a guy I went to school and as it happens he has recently bought a Hagglunds BV206, it has a Ford V6 in it and he uses it for work bringing his crew across poor ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYm5USbSt8c

What would you pay for one of these Slidey? there some tool

CJhaughey

Thats it exactly 101, the rest of the world got models of Landcruiser that we will never see here, LC105 GX80's and the like. Interestingly the "new" 78 series are still available with the old 4.2 non turbo lump but only for the NGO/Govt markets.
The new 200 series have 2 versions of the diesel V8 twin turbo
Manual and Auto, check those torque values on the Auto version!
Engine Layout: 4,461cc, 8 cylinder 32-value DOHC
Max power: 162kW at 3,600rpm (5MT) 173kW at 3,200rpm (6AT)
Max torque: 430Nm at 1200-3600rpm (5MT) 615Nm at 1800-2200rpm (6AT)

CJhaughey

Slidey wrote: »

Well I was just down the pub and met a guy I went to school and as it happens he has recently bought a Hagglunds BV206, it has a Ford V6 in it and he uses it for work bringing his crew across poor ground.

I saw something on the news about the Civil Defence having bought one recently was I correct?

Slidey

greenpeter wrote: »

What would you pay for one of these Slidey? there some tool

I didn't ask what he paid for it, I don't think he would have told me!

He bought it from a guy that had 14 other ones but they were all diesel engined. Yer man has them for rent and uses them to salvage stuff off mud flats apparently. The only reason he sold the one yer man got was because it was a petrol.

@CJ, this guy had no links to the civil defence as far as I know. It is purely for his own business that he has it

101sean

Yes, it was a BV206 you saw on the news, there were a heap of ex British and Swedish army ones released 4 or 5 years ago, several plant hire companies in the UK rent them out.

Main supplier - http://www.bv206.co.uk/bvindex.html Can't find prices but suspect you won't get any change from €10k for a basic petrol one.

They are pretty good in the sand as well, Royal Marines were using armoured ones in Afghanistan but are these are being replaced by a similar but much larger Warthog from Singapore of all places!

101sean

Forgot to say, they float too!

k974

101sean wrote: »

I've already mentioned further up and elsewhere that a ROW spec Landcruiser or Patrol are amongst the ideal 4x4s, they're not readily available here though. All we get is bloated eurospec bling ones :mad:

Big lazy engines won't ever be sold here either, we've no choice but to have small high speed common rail diesels to meet euro emmissions regs and punitive tax regimes. The TDV8 in the Range Rover is possibly an exception but will never appear in a utility vehicle. The Td5 is the best diesel engine Land Rover produced and is very reliable with plenty of poke, I'd love a big V8 with no electronics but it's not going to happen.

I remember the picture of your truck, nice vehicle and ideal for where you are. Your reasons for owning are clear and you were doing well until the second last paragraph when you posted the usual generalisation. Unfortunately your market is one Land Rover are never likely to regain.

as i said i've owne a 110 TD5 defender and it was aood vehicle didnt have a problem with it in 50,000 miles, and held its value extremely well. i presume your a land rover fan and i'm not here to bash em for the craic, what i said is my opinion and at the day thats all it is an opinion.

but hand on heart i honeslty believe a defender doesnt come within a 100miles of a cruiser. its a fairly ackonweldged fact bout the range rover reability issues, everyone knows about the freelander and the discos. likewise i dont think the range rover comes close to a fully optioned 200 series (amazon) cruiser

my view is prob influenced a bit over here its either patrol or cruiser country but at the end of the day i believe so for a reason i wouldnt take a defender across the simpson desert.

its different at home or england you're never far from anywhere, we're talking bout 4x4's too not unimogs etc so in its class i dont think you can buy a better "proper" 4x4..

i suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on the defender, they have their merits but i personally dont think they come close to the cruiser, and that coming from someone that actually needs a 4x4.

still tho its a good discussion, i'd llove to bring my cruiser home to ireland one day, has anyone every seen one over there?


ps sorry about my spelling/grammar

CJhaughey

k974 wrote: »

still tho its a good discussion, i'd llove to bring my cruiser home to ireland one day, has anyone every seen one over there?

I have seen a few 70 series, only one 78 but a few older 70's Usually kitted out as Overland vehicles.
You can get them in Gibraltar.

gofaster_s13

CJhaughey wrote: »

Veg
The timing belt is very simple to change on the 1KZTE engine, takes me about 30mins + a cup of tea.
The actual timing is run by gears so even if the belt breaks there is no damage, the belt only runs the fuel pump.

Wrong, the Pump is driven by gears and the belt drives the camshaft from the pump, if the belt breaks it will do damage, I have only ever seen one break and it was a pure fluke(piece of steel re-bar somehow managed to get up and eventually wear through the belt cover and snag the belt) This particular one broke a camshaft when the belt snapped scrapping the head.

CJhaughey

Thanks Gofaster, My mistake you are correct on that.
How did the Rebar get to the timing belt cover?

gofaster_s13

CJhaughey wrote: »

How did the Rebar get to the timing belt cover?

No idea, still a mystery, the company that owns it has a fleet of L/C's(80+) and they would be getting serious on site work and the drivers would be rough we reckon that a driver left it under the bonnet for some reason

Deer Hunter DL

an Argo 8x8 is the machine they truly will go anywhere

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B3HbjUZe78