Is there a market for a PROPER off road vehicle ?

CJhaughey

Watch Ryder wrote: »

There already is one and it's called a landrover defender

Soon to be replaced by a new one in 2013 though

To go to the Desert, take a Landrover, to come back from the Desert take a Landcruiser.

peasant

If you REALLY need to go offroad AND do some work ...this is what you want

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XKxMxWS4rA

gofaster_s13

johnxxx wrote: »

I think the discovery is good enough

Watch Ryder wrote: »

There already is one and it's called a landrover defender

I presume these remarks are meant sarcastically:D

The Defender was top of its game in the 50's, things have come a long, long way since;)

fonecrusher1

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoG2Inl5PEg

Nuff said:D

Thought we were talking about 4x4's ya cheat!:D

Rovi

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

I presume these remarks are meant sarcastically:D

The Defender was top of its game in the 50's, things have come a long, long way since;)

[pedant]The Defender didn't exist in the 50's.[/pedant]

greenpeter

My baby will go any where i want it to go. Its 1965 2.2petrol

CJhaughey

greenpeter wrote: »

My baby will go any where i want it to go. Its 1965 2.2petrol

Nice one
I had one very similar, lighter green with a 3.3l 6cyl petrol. 1966
The non-syncro 'box is strong but agricultural.
Whats it like to drive in this weather?, Mine also had an additional heater in the passenger footwell, that you could switch on manually.

greenpeter

CJhaughey wrote: »

Nice one
I had one very similar, lighter green with a 3.3l 6cyl petrol. 1966
The non-syncro 'box is strong but agricultural.
Whats it like to drive in this weather?, Mine also had an additional heater in the passenger footwell, that you could switch on manually.

There is a heater in it as well but only for the windows. Would freeze to death in it.
As for the gear box, you need to be bang on with selection or it will start to talk to you.
Its only a four cylinder but dose the job for me,
a savage off road never fails will pull on and on even if the diffs are stiing on the ground.
But then again it will shoed.
Had a few near one in it with the snow but even if it goes in the ditch just put her in the low box and off you go again:D

nzae86

toyota landcruiser (not the ones in ireland) 79 series with the new 4.5 V8 d4d or a nissan patrol pick up with the d42t engine

101sean

Seems the common answer is that the ideal vehicles are already out there but are either expensive (Unimogs, Tatras, G-wagons), not available here (ROW poverty spec 'cruisers and Patrols) or have an ill informed reliabilty record (Land Rover, not helped by appalling dealer care)

Nice informative thread that thankfully hasn't descended into a jap v Land Rover slanging match

Watch Ryder

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

I presume these remarks are meant sarcastically:D

The Defender was top of its game in the 50's, things have come a long, long way since;)

The Defender will be going long after these inferior 'urbane' 4x4s give up the ghost.

Of all the Series landrovers and defenders EVER made there are still over 75% still on the road.

People big-up this landcruiser biz.
Sure it might have a (slight) edge in the desert, but you put that thing in a UK climate in the north of the land and it would be rusted pile of metal in no time.

What we have here is the new-school (jap 4x4) vs the old school and on this one the 4x4s of defender remain on the top of their game.

This is going out to all you naysayers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEf0pKdyeyg

Now come back and tell me your machines are better

CJhaughey

Watch Ryder wrote: »

The Defender will be going long after these inferior 'urbane' 4x4s give up the ghost.

Of all the Series landrovers and defenders EVER made there are still over 75% still on the road.

People big-up this landcruiser biz.
Sure it might have a (slight) edge in the desert, but you put that thing in a UK climate in the north of the land and it would be rusted pile of metal in no time.

What we have here is the new-school (jap 4x4) vs the old school and on this one the 4x4s of defender remain on the top of their game.
Now come back and tell me your machines are better

You are having a laugh,telling us that Landrovers don't rust!
If it wasn't for the bulkhead and rear chassis members being replaced on a regular basis the 75% you speak of would be long gone.
It used to be a case of good suspension (LR) vs Good engine(TLC) Now the TLC has good suspension and good engines and the LR still have small capacity diesels 2.5l
I don't think anyone is bigging up the TLC, it's just a fact of life that the Defender is basically an anachronism much like the British Twin motorcycle.
Fun but they need constant fettling, OK here and in western countries where pattern parts are largely cheap and readily available but for serious offroad travel where a breakdown can cost you your life they don't appear.
The UN use the LC, most NGO's use the LC, more or less all the Tour operators in Africa use the LC (Apart from a few Patrols)
OK the Taliban have decided on Hilux but they are pretty much an abberation:D
It's not because they listen to a bunch of boardsies on the 4x4 subforum banging on about them. Parts availability, and reliability are the reasons.

Vegeta

What are TLC like to get parts for (price, ease of availability) and to work on?

One big plus for Land Rover is their following, this has created demand for parts and so they are affordable as well as easy to get online

101sean

Seems I spoke too soon :rolleyes:

Can we drop the mine's better than yours, we're never going to agree! ::D

101sean

LR/Tata assure us there will be a replacement probably on the T5 platform (what RR Sport and Disco 4 are built on)

Slightly OT again, looks like I got my facts wrong. It's 2014 that the legislation causes the problems. The Defender replacement will be on a ladder frame chassis with modular bodywork and a range of engines. Looks like they are going to take on both the passenger, utility and pick up market. Taken from one of the Land Rover comics.

fonecrusher1

Vegeta wrote: »

What are TLC like to get parts for (price, ease of availability) and to work on?

One big plus for Land Rover is their following, this has created demand for parts and so they are affordable as well as easy to get online

Are you trying to trigger an argument or something?

Before this turns into a my cars better than your car thread, will we just nip this in the bud?

In my view its even stevens with the old Toyota vs Land Rover debate.
Yes Land Rovers can be unreliable but thats negated with the huge parts availability & the fact that they can be repaired with basic tools.
Toyota's can be very reliable but if something does go wrong you could be waiting a while to get a part & you'l pay a fair bit for it.

Each marque has it pros & cons. Can we just appreciate 4x4's in general?

Slidey

Fonecrusher & 101sean, thank you for trying to keep the peace..

If people can be civil and discuss things reasonably I see no reason why this thread can't remain open.

fonecrusher1

Lads all i know is this. Im very glad i own a 4x4 at the moment.:D
With the recent weather ie; snow, rain, flooding & the general condition of our roads at the minute i really am starting to appreciate my vehicle on a whole new level.
Ive not had any problems in the snow & ive had to pull the next door neighbors car out of our estate twice because her little 2wd car couldnt make it due to a few ice-covered slopes that lead to the main road.

Us 4x4 drivers generally get a bit of stick from everyone but i bet the same moaners are now looking at these vehicles in a whole new light.:)

Mr.Boots

Ive owend both Landcruiser and Defender
The lnadcruiser is more comfortable, reliable ect ect........BUT....its not a defender, and to me thats inportant.
Im in love with defenders....warts and all
Landcruisers just dont tug the same heart strings (with anyone)

So i just boils down to one thing....do you buy with your head or your heart.....What kind of a person are you??

Both vehicles have "unique personalties"
Neither being better than the other.

101sean

When I get a bit of time I'll post up some examples of off road vehicles that have tried and failed to make the grade!

Vegeta

Jaysus lads calm down

My Discovery has a serious case of frost bite and may be too expensive to repair.

I am considering replacements and as I have zero experience with TLC, I was wondering if they are as easy to work on and as cheap to get parts for as my current Discovery is. Nothing more. nothing less.

As any 4x4 I buy will be transport for my hobby I cannot pay huge money for parts and need specialised expertise to maintain it.

Oh and CJ would know that I am not trying to start an argument or troll. As he seems to like landcruisers I was just looking for his opinion on the cost of owning one.

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Are you trying to trigger an argument or something?

Before this turns into a my cars better than your car thread, will we just nip this in the bud?

In my view its even stevens with the old Toyota vs Land Rover debate.
Yes Land Rovers can be unreliable but thats negated with the huge parts availability & the fact that they can be repaired with basic tools.
Toyota's can be very reliable but if something does go wrong you could be waiting a while to get a part & you'l pay a fair bit for it.

Each marque has it pros & cons. Can we just appreciate 4x4's in general?

CJhaughey

Vegeta wrote: »

Oh and CJ would know that I am not trying to start an argument or troll. As he seems to like landcruisers I was just looking for his opinion on the cost of owning one.

Veg
I have my swb since 02 I got it with 108k mileage, It now has 245k on it.
I have replaced: Wiper linkage, track rod ends, steering rack bushes, two rear control arms, starter motor, handbrake parts and a Rad in that time, bear in mind that this is after 7 years of ownership nearly 140k miles so not bad going.

The timing belt is very simple to change on the 1KZTE engine, takes me about 30mins + a cup of tea.
The actual timing is run by gears so even if the belt breaks there is no damage, the belt only runs the fuel pump.

Parts have come down a lot now and many parts are available from specialist independent parts suppliers, I can get good quality service items like Oil, Air and Fuel filters very reasonably now.

Consumables like Brake pads,Shocks etc are also reasonable.
I have never been let down with this vehicle in all the time I have had it.
The romantic aspect of motoring is not a big decision for me, I want a vehicle that starts first time every time and won't let me down on some bog road in the middle of nowhere.

peasant

BTW ...the Unimog has smaller (and cheaper) competition from Italy for a while now ....BREMACH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK51NIJDzjA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWxGxprabJg

fonecrusher1

Vegeta wrote: »

Jaysus lads calm down

My Discovery has a serious case of frost bite and may be too expensive to repair.

I am considering replacements and as I have zero experience with TLC, I was wondering if they are as easy to work on and as cheap to get parts for as my current Discovery is. Nothing more. nothing less.

As any 4x4 I buy will be transport for my hobby I cannot pay huge money for parts and need specialised expertise to maintain it.

Oh and CJ would know that I am not trying to start an argument or troll. As he seems to like landcruisers I was just looking for his opinion on the cost of owning one.

Apologies if my response seemed a bit snappy. I suppose it should have been aimed at Watch Ryder's child-like, my car's better than your car post.:rolleyes:
Im just a bit sick of walking around on eggshells, having to be careful about what i say regarding Toyota or Land rover because it may cause bickering.

I own a Toyota surf & it has been literally without fault but i havent owned a Land Rover so i dont have first hand knowledge of how reliable they are.
Ive briefly driven a Discovery (it was brilliant off-road but it was a very rattly) before but that hardly puts me in a position to accurately appraise them generally.

101sean

Know what you mean about eggshells mate, I didn't bother posting on the other thread that got binned, could see where it was going. I think Watch Ryder is new to the scene and very keen (to be commended, excellent website) not realising this arguement has been rattling around for years!!

Anyway, to lighten the mood a little, hows about this for a failure -

Gomba Stonefield. Started out in Scotland as a job making exercise and like the way of these things passed around until an Asian business man went into limited production in Kent near where I used to live. The Malaysian Army bought 400 in the 80s then they went bust. The one in the pic wasn't army, was used by Kent Police. Space frame chassis, Chrysler V8 petrol, Chrysler autobox and New Process Transfer box.

101sean

Here's another from the late 70s, the Land Master. Read an item about this in one of the first issues of Overlander 4x4, the first off road magazine ever back around 1980.

Imagine a Land Rover but built by a Cornish blacksmith around a Chevy V8, wonder it never made it! :rolleyes:

101sean

While I'm on a roll (should really be out cutting timber but it's raining ) here's one that technically wasn't a failure, the Austin Gipsy.



A direct competitor to the Land Rover, the first versions has independant susupension with rubber torsion springs. By the Mk4 they had conventional leaf springs and a BMC 2.2 diesel. With the creation of British Leyland they were killed off in favour of Land Rover. Many lamented it's passing but the steel bodywork was very prone to rust. The one pictured is one of several Auxillary Fire Service ones that were in heated storage until the 90s when they were sold with about 40 miles on the clock :eek:

fonecrusher1

101sean wrote: »

Here's another from the late 70s, the Land Master. Read an item about this in one of the first issues of Overlander 4x4, the first off road magazine ever back around 1980.

Imagine a Land Rover but built by a Cornish blacksmith around a Chevy V8, wonder it never made it! :rolleyes:

The Land Master eh??? hehehe!! Bit of a copyright issue there i'd say??:D
I'd say those Santana's are the only defender pretender's to ever make a success of themselves.

101sean

The last (unless I can dredge up any more) is the Austin Champ. I've always fancied one of these myself.


A technical tour-de-force designed by comittee as a replacement for the Jeep for the British Army. Fully independant suspension, 5 speed gearbox, reverse and low range built in to back axle (went as fast backwards as forwards) and powered by a Rolls Royce B40 petrol engine. Was supposed to part of a family of standard combat vehicles powered by these engines, only this and the Humber 1 Ton went into service in the early 50s. It was late, way over budget and had technical problems (back axle mainly) by which time the army were buying Land Rovers in large numbers anyway which were capable of the same job at a far lower cost.

fonecrusher1

peasant wrote: »

BTW ...the Unimog has smaller (and cheaper) competition from Italy for a while now ....BREMACH

Smaller, cheaper & less able by the looks of it.:p

Sure a defender or a Landcruiser could do that with a decent set of tyres on either.:)