Is there a market for a PROPER off road vehicle ?

gofaster_s13

Just wondering if a manufacturer were to build and market a Proper off roader( selectable diff locks, proper low range box, proper independant suspension etc) would it sell ?? Also any other ideas as to what spec/equipment a proper off roader should have ??

colm_mcm

who uses an offroader offroad all the time and if so what do they use it for when they do?

I presume there are other options already available to people like quadbikes, unimogs, tractors etc,

Anything that's great offroad will be a pig on the road.

gofaster_s13

Sorry should have made myself clear, I ment a proper offroader to replace the likes of Landcruisers, Pajeros etc for people who need a proper offroad vehicle that they can use on road as well

colm_mcm

Not sure what you mean, for the majority of people willing to spend €50k on an offroader, the limits of a Land Cruier or a Defender is as far as most people need to go.

Who would realistically buy something that drove more agriculturally than a Defender (no offense intended to and Land Roverers)

gofaster_s13

colm_mcm wrote: »

Not sure what you mean, for the majority of people willing to spend €50k on an offroader, the limits of a Land Cruier or a Defender is as far as most people need to go.

Who would realistically buy something that drove more agriculturally than a Defender (no offense intended to and Land Roverers)

It wouldnt have to drive agriculturally, the Range Rover and the Porsche Cayenne are very capable off road and are anything but agricultural, the Defender is unnecessarily rough and Agricultural(Land Rover must be laughing in disbelief all the way to the bank every time someone goes into the dealers and buys one) basically all the current range of 4x4's are compromises in one way or another and I'm wondering is there a market for someone to make something which can do both off road and onroad(theres reason for an offroader to need to do more than 60-65mph on road) As to who'd buy them, ESB or companys like them, farmers etc.

fonecrusher1

I honestly dont know what your on about???
If you dont consider a landcruiser to be a proper off-roader then you must be on about something thats barely civilian like a humvee or a unimog or something?
A landcruiser 80 series is an awesome beast without any mods.

gofaster_s13

The 80 series is designed first and foremost as a passanger carrying vehicle it just happens to be fairly good off road and again there are compromises in its design, I'm talking about a company building something that would knock anything out there at the moment into the weeds when it came to a vehicle that somebody could just get into and work with

fonecrusher1

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

The 80 series is designed first and foremost as a passanger carrying vehicle it just happens to be fairly good off road and again there are compromises in its design, I'm talking about a company building something that would knock anything out there at the moment into the weeds when it came to a vehicle that somebody could just get into and work with

Like a unimog?

gofaster_s13

Like a Unimog but in a smaller size. Maybe something like a Defender with a few changes and around the size of the 80 series cruiser.

Builderfromhell

I'd say the early versions of the Toyota Hilux, Land rover defender, Willy Jeep, Land cruiser were built to achieve what you are discussing.
Look at the vehicles they drive in Afghanistan and throughout Africa. They use the above and later versions of them. I'd imagine BMW, VOlvo etc. 4x4s aren't in much demand over there.

fonecrusher1

Google Volvo TGB11?

ectoraige

Mercedes-Benz G-Class?

CJhaughey

Already out there, The VDJ200 landcruiser is the one to beat.
V8 Diesel all the bells and whistles that you could want depending on spec.
And with minor mods competing in the T2 class in the current Dakar in Argentina as of now.
Minor mods are a roll cage and some suspension mount work thats more or less it.
Some feat for a car you could drive to the shops for a pint of milk and carry on across Africa if they didn't have skim:D

101sean

Pinzgauers (now heavily used by by the Brittish Army) probably meet your description exactly. The military Merc G-Wagon is probably next nearest for a basic vehicle but makes a Defender look cheap. Pinzies are even dearer, Petrol engined 20yo ex NATO stock will set you back a min of £7k, god knows what they are new. The Volvo TGB family are similar if a touch cheaper.

A Range Rover or Disco 4 are about the most capable luxury offroaders going but rely heavily on electrickery almost removing the driver from the equation.

Others have tried over the years to make a 4x4 that does everything and have failed dismally, Land Rover realised within the first year of production that pure agricultural doesn't sell but have the utility market sewn up in the UK. Santana PS10/Iveco Massif are chipping away at the market to a limited extent.

Everyones idea of the ideal off roader is different which is why there's a small market in racers like Bowler Wildcat and Nemesis or loads of aftermarket stuff for tricking out Defenders, Landcruisers and the like (look at a copy of Total Offroad in Easons)

fonecrusher1

CJhaughey wrote: »

Already out there, The VDJ200 landcruiser is the one to beat.
V8 Diesel all the bells and whistles that you could want depending on spec.
And with minor mods competing in the T2 class in the current Dakar in Argentina as of now.
Minor mods are a roll cage and some suspension mount work thats more or less it.
Some feat for a car you could drive to the shops for a pint of milk and carry on across Africa if they didn't have skim:D

This is basically my dream 4x4. A v8 powered landcruiser with a pop-up roof. The ultimate go-anywhere camper. The one thing i would change about this is i would have to have a window or two on the rear cab.
Feckin brilliant.

fonecrusher1

Personally i think an 80 series landcruiser with the 4.2td is pretty much top dog. Put a decent set of tyres on one & i reckon their unstoppable. Also a v8 defender but their hardly luxurious.

101sean

It's a discussion that will keep offroaders arguing over beers for hours about what's best (and got an earlier thread rightfully chopped when it got out of hand :rolleyes:)

I think most will agree that the older simpler vehicles are are easier to change to an owners ideal, something that's much harder with the latest vehicles be they Toyota, Land Rover, Nissan etc and is likely to be legislated against in the long run.

Also legislation is likely to stop the universal simple utility vehicle being sold for general use, the Defender as we know it can't be built for european markets after 2012 (hasn't been sold in the US for 15 years already) and production will stop.

That camper is nice, you know it would only pay €160 road tax and be NCT exempt (for now), VRT would be high though. Thought of doing that to my 110 to reduce the €948 road tax I pay.

Just noticed that I seem to have posted my previous reply twice, stupid culchie internet connection (now deleted)

Slidey

101sean wrote: »

Also legislation is likely to stop the universal simple utility vehicle being sold for general use, the Defender as we know it can't be built for european markets after 2012 (hasn't been sold in the US for 15 years already) and production will stop.

Slightly off topic but what is it that has the defender destined for the subs bench. Someone said it to me a few weeks ago but didn't know why when I asked them.

peasant

The thing is though ...there is no need for a heavily tricked out offroad vehicle.

Anything that can reasonably drive on the road will be stopped by the first bog or a few big boulders or tree stumps.

Anything that can negotiate those obstacles has to be carted to them on a trailer.

101sean

No air bags, pedestrian unfreindly, no crumple zone (except the other car ) etc etc. It would be too expensive to update the existing vehicle (which in it's basic form dates from 1948). The recent engine change and interior revamp involved no substantial chassis and bulkhead changes. It is also expensive to produce as assembly is labour intensive, there was talk of production moving to Turkey or India but I don't think it will happen soon.

LR/Tata assure us there will be a replacement probably on the T5 platform (what RR Sport and Disco 4 are built on)

Many fans believe the world will end in 2012 but things have to move on.

Deadly Dave

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

This is basically my dream 4x4. A v8 powered landcruiser with a pop-up roof. The ultimate go-anywhere camper. The one thing i would change about this is i would have to have a window or two on the rear cab.
Feckin brilliant.

I like that :cool::cool::cool:

Builderfromhell

Found a good off road vehicle here;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_F7QrR4Ur8&feature=player_embedded#

fonecrusher1

Look at the terrain this thing is crawling through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNuU-Wy7Ibw

101sean

The yanks certainly like their rock crawling, usually in very tricked out vehicles, nice to see a bog standard mog U404 doing it.

fonecrusher1

When ever i see videos of humvees in youtube with the associated 'wow they're the best 4x4 ever made' etc etc... i just direct them to this video. Good old unimog kicks arse.
They go places that would stop a tank.:cool:

CJhaughey

And they have been around over 50 years, long before the Humvee was even a twinkle in a designers eye.

peasant

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

When ever i see videos of humvees in youtube with the associated 'wow they're the best 4x4 ever made' etc etc... i just direct them to this video. Good old unimog kicks arse.
They go places that would stop a tank.:cool:

but your ESB fleet manager would have your nuts on a plate if he saw you abusing your mog like that

johnxxx

I think the discovery is good enough

gofaster_s13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoG2Inl5PEg

Nuff said:D

Watch Ryder

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Just wondering if a manufacturer were to build and market a Proper off roader( selectable diff locks, proper low range box, proper independant suspension etc) would it sell ?? Also any other ideas as to what spec/equipment a proper off roader should have ??

There already is one and it's called a landrover defender

Soon to be replaced by a new one in 2013 though

colm_mcm

I wouldn't like to warranty a machine of such capabilities

CJhaughey

Watch Ryder wrote: »

There already is one and it's called a landrover defender

Soon to be replaced by a new one in 2013 though

To go to the Desert, take a Landrover, to come back from the Desert take a Landcruiser.

peasant

If you REALLY need to go offroad AND do some work ...this is what you want

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XKxMxWS4rA

gofaster_s13

johnxxx wrote: »

I think the discovery is good enough

Watch Ryder wrote: »

There already is one and it's called a landrover defender

I presume these remarks are meant sarcastically:D

The Defender was top of its game in the 50's, things have come a long, long way since;)

fonecrusher1

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoG2Inl5PEg

Nuff said:D

Thought we were talking about 4x4's ya cheat!:D

Rovi

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

I presume these remarks are meant sarcastically:D

The Defender was top of its game in the 50's, things have come a long, long way since;)

[pedant]The Defender didn't exist in the 50's.[/pedant]

greenpeter

My baby will go any where i want it to go. Its 1965 2.2petrol

CJhaughey

greenpeter wrote: »

My baby will go any where i want it to go. Its 1965 2.2petrol

Nice one
I had one very similar, lighter green with a 3.3l 6cyl petrol. 1966
The non-syncro 'box is strong but agricultural.
Whats it like to drive in this weather?, Mine also had an additional heater in the passenger footwell, that you could switch on manually.

greenpeter

CJhaughey wrote: »

Nice one
I had one very similar, lighter green with a 3.3l 6cyl petrol. 1966
The non-syncro 'box is strong but agricultural.
Whats it like to drive in this weather?, Mine also had an additional heater in the passenger footwell, that you could switch on manually.

There is a heater in it as well but only for the windows. Would freeze to death in it.
As for the gear box, you need to be bang on with selection or it will start to talk to you.
Its only a four cylinder but dose the job for me,
a savage off road never fails will pull on and on even if the diffs are stiing on the ground.
But then again it will shoed.
Had a few near one in it with the snow but even if it goes in the ditch just put her in the low box and off you go again:D

nzae86

toyota landcruiser (not the ones in ireland) 79 series with the new 4.5 V8 d4d or a nissan patrol pick up with the d42t engine

101sean

Seems the common answer is that the ideal vehicles are already out there but are either expensive (Unimogs, Tatras, G-wagons), not available here (ROW poverty spec 'cruisers and Patrols) or have an ill informed reliabilty record (Land Rover, not helped by appalling dealer care)

Nice informative thread that thankfully hasn't descended into a jap v Land Rover slanging match

Watch Ryder

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

I presume these remarks are meant sarcastically:D

The Defender was top of its game in the 50's, things have come a long, long way since;)

The Defender will be going long after these inferior 'urbane' 4x4s give up the ghost.

Of all the Series landrovers and defenders EVER made there are still over 75% still on the road.

People big-up this landcruiser biz.
Sure it might have a (slight) edge in the desert, but you put that thing in a UK climate in the north of the land and it would be rusted pile of metal in no time.

What we have here is the new-school (jap 4x4) vs the old school and on this one the 4x4s of defender remain on the top of their game.

This is going out to all you naysayers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEf0pKdyeyg

Now come back and tell me your machines are better

CJhaughey

Watch Ryder wrote: »

The Defender will be going long after these inferior 'urbane' 4x4s give up the ghost.

Of all the Series landrovers and defenders EVER made there are still over 75% still on the road.

People big-up this landcruiser biz.
Sure it might have a (slight) edge in the desert, but you put that thing in a UK climate in the north of the land and it would be rusted pile of metal in no time.

What we have here is the new-school (jap 4x4) vs the old school and on this one the 4x4s of defender remain on the top of their game.
Now come back and tell me your machines are better

You are having a laugh,telling us that Landrovers don't rust!
If it wasn't for the bulkhead and rear chassis members being replaced on a regular basis the 75% you speak of would be long gone.
It used to be a case of good suspension (LR) vs Good engine(TLC) Now the TLC has good suspension and good engines and the LR still have small capacity diesels 2.5l
I don't think anyone is bigging up the TLC, it's just a fact of life that the Defender is basically an anachronism much like the British Twin motorcycle.
Fun but they need constant fettling, OK here and in western countries where pattern parts are largely cheap and readily available but for serious offroad travel where a breakdown can cost you your life they don't appear.
The UN use the LC, most NGO's use the LC, more or less all the Tour operators in Africa use the LC (Apart from a few Patrols)
OK the Taliban have decided on Hilux but they are pretty much an abberation:D
It's not because they listen to a bunch of boardsies on the 4x4 subforum banging on about them. Parts availability, and reliability are the reasons.

Vegeta

What are TLC like to get parts for (price, ease of availability) and to work on?

One big plus for Land Rover is their following, this has created demand for parts and so they are affordable as well as easy to get online

101sean

Seems I spoke too soon :rolleyes:

Can we drop the mine's better than yours, we're never going to agree! ::D

101sean

LR/Tata assure us there will be a replacement probably on the T5 platform (what RR Sport and Disco 4 are built on)

Slightly OT again, looks like I got my facts wrong. It's 2014 that the legislation causes the problems. The Defender replacement will be on a ladder frame chassis with modular bodywork and a range of engines. Looks like they are going to take on both the passenger, utility and pick up market. Taken from one of the Land Rover comics.

fonecrusher1

Vegeta wrote: »

What are TLC like to get parts for (price, ease of availability) and to work on?

One big plus for Land Rover is their following, this has created demand for parts and so they are affordable as well as easy to get online

Are you trying to trigger an argument or something?

Before this turns into a my cars better than your car thread, will we just nip this in the bud?

In my view its even stevens with the old Toyota vs Land Rover debate.
Yes Land Rovers can be unreliable but thats negated with the huge parts availability & the fact that they can be repaired with basic tools.
Toyota's can be very reliable but if something does go wrong you could be waiting a while to get a part & you'l pay a fair bit for it.

Each marque has it pros & cons. Can we just appreciate 4x4's in general?

Slidey

Fonecrusher & 101sean, thank you for trying to keep the peace..

If people can be civil and discuss things reasonably I see no reason why this thread can't remain open.

fonecrusher1

Lads all i know is this. Im very glad i own a 4x4 at the moment.:D
With the recent weather ie; snow, rain, flooding & the general condition of our roads at the minute i really am starting to appreciate my vehicle on a whole new level.
Ive not had any problems in the snow & ive had to pull the next door neighbors car out of our estate twice because her little 2wd car couldnt make it due to a few ice-covered slopes that lead to the main road.

Us 4x4 drivers generally get a bit of stick from everyone but i bet the same moaners are now looking at these vehicles in a whole new light.:)

Mr.Boots

Ive owend both Landcruiser and Defender
The lnadcruiser is more comfortable, reliable ect ect........BUT....its not a defender, and to me thats inportant.
Im in love with defenders....warts and all
Landcruisers just dont tug the same heart strings (with anyone)

So i just boils down to one thing....do you buy with your head or your heart.....What kind of a person are you??

Both vehicles have "unique personalties"
Neither being better than the other.

101sean

When I get a bit of time I'll post up some examples of off road vehicles that have tried and failed to make the grade!