N21 Thread

Limerick74

I assume the consultation brochure and route options map will be available on the website some time today.

Chris_5339762

Route options PDF is up on foyneslimerick.ie . All but one of the route corridors includes an Adare bypass, so at least the designers have seen the obvious just like we have.

Limerick74

I see the foyneslimerick.ie website has been updated with an extended deadline for submissions to 10th April and higher resolution drawings from the public consultation.

marmurr1916

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Route options PDF is up on foyneslimerick.ie . All but one of the route corridors includes an Adare bypass, so at least the designers have seen the obvious just like we have.

The second corridor is pretty similar to this:

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Do the TEN-T regulations require motorways or just high-quality port access routes?

The NRA could meet the requirements for Foynes by building a single-carriageway route at far less cost.

If a motorway (or even a 2+2 dual-carriageway) is going to be built, it would make sense to design the route in such a way that it serves both as a road from Limerick to Foynes as well as part of a road from Limerick to Kerry.

Building a completely new off-line road from the existing N21 west of Patrickswell to a point close to mid-way between Rathkeale and Askeaton, near to the R518, would satisfy that requirement.

There could then be a northwards spur towards Foynes, joining the existing N69 west of Askeaton, with a southwards spur towards Tralee, joining the existing N21 west of Rathkeale.

The most suitable route for the connection between the existing N21 west of Patrickswell to the R518 would be either to use to build on the railway line or build a road more-or-less parallel to the railway line.

This option is also available for the northwards spur towards Foynes.

marno21

Today really showing how necessary it is for this road to be dualled from Adare to Abbeyfeale. 45 minute delay in Newcastlewest due to a 1km long realignment scheme, 30 minute delay in Adare, and 10 minute holdup in Abbeyfeale. Altogether 3 hours to do Castletroy -> Killarney (a little over 100km)

Mc Love

those roadworks in NCW were a joke!

road_high

marno21 wrote: »

Today really showing how necessary it is for this road to be dualled from Adare to Abbeyfeale. 45 minute delay in Newcastlewest due to a 1km long realignment scheme, 30 minute delay in Adare, and 10 minute holdup in Abbeyfeale. Altogether 3 hours to do Castletroy -> Killarney (a little over 100km)

Desperate road to make time on. Constant stream of dawdlers at 70ish kmph as well as all the holdups. Magnifies the isolation of Kerry from the rest of the country.

limklad

marno21 wrote: »

Today really showing how necessary it is for this road to be dualled from Adare to Abbeyfeale. 45 minute delay in Newcastlewest due to a 1km long realignment scheme, 30 minute delay in Adare, and 10 minute holdup in Abbeyfeale. Altogether 3 hours to do Castletroy -> Killarney (a little over 100km)

Main bottle necks on N21 at rush hour are No.1: Adare, Number 2: Newcastle west, 3: Road works, 4:Abbeyfeale.

Take to following route. Especially if you are from South Kerry.

From Killarney, Take the N72 towards Mallow.
Take the Kanturk road on the R579. From Kanturk take the Charleville road on the R579/R578. In Charleville take the N20 to Patrickswell, From there you know the way to Castletroy.

It is the route, I take when I go to Killarney from Limerick for Match days during the summer when Limerick is playing in Killarney.

It saves a hell of a lot of time with traffic on the N21 slowing down travel.

If anyone reading this from North Kerry/Tralee/Abbeyfeale, Then I suggests to take the N69. It is slower than the N21 normally, but at peak traffic and road works, it is faster at slow pace.

Please, take care on these 2 routes.

Mc Love

Was thinking of taking N69 the next time! Might be better for the summer months

lottpaul

Listened to a report on Radio na Gaeltachta today about a meeting between councillors from Kerry and the NRA. Mostly N86, N22 etc but also mentioned that the Adare bypass alone is years away - at best.

Disappointing, to put it mildly.
Just takes an incident like last weekends fire to show how vulnerable the N21 is to any disruption in Adare, Newcastlewest, Abbeyfeale etc but seems we'll all be travelling it for a long time to come.

Mc Love

What was said about the N86?

lottpaul

Mc Love wrote: »

What was said about the N86?

Nothing can be done until the court appeal is heard next month etc but finance is ready to be rolled out if the project gets a final go ahead

Grandeeod

lottpaul wrote: »

Just takes an incident like last weekends fire to show how vulnerable the N21 is to any disruption in Adare, Newcastlewest, Abbeyfeale etc but seems we'll all be travelling it for a long time to come.

I did Killarney to Naas on Saturday night in 2 hours and 45 mins. Fire engines were still outside the cottage in Adare at 11.15pm. M20/M7 helps a lot. It's a decent route outside of peak hours, but it would be the opening of Kerry if Adare, NCW and Abbeyfeale were bypassed. That said, it's better than 20 years ago.

road_high

Grandeeod wrote: »

I did Killarney to Naas on Saturday night in 2 hours and 45 mins. Fire engines were still outside the cottage in Adare at 11.15pm. M20/M7 helps a lot. It's a decent route outside of peak hours, but it would be the opening of Kerry if Adare, NCW and Abbeyfeale were bypassed. That said, it's better than 20 years ago.

People would be more inclined to go to Kerry for a night away. As it stands it's just a hell of a track with Adare Etc still there and is off putting.

spacetweek

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Route options PDF is up on foyneslimerick.ie . All but one of the route corridors includes an Adare bypass, so at least the designers have seen the obvious just like we have.

Blue looks good to me - useful if approaching from the south, bypasses Adare, doubles as an N21 upgrade, and is nice and short.

They'd probably make all of it dual.

marno21

Adare Bypass should be realistically D2M as it leads directly onto the M20, a motorway.

The Foynes - N21 section should be 2+2

Grandeeod

road_high wrote: »

People would be more inclined to go to Kerry for a night away. As it stands it's just a hell of a track with Adare Etc still there and is off putting.

Left Tralee at 11pm last night. Reached Naas, Co. Kildare at 1.20am via the N21. I travelled at roughly 20kph over the speed limit where possible. Obviously I had no traffic to deal with. Only had one "delay" with a very unsure driver approaching Adare. That was the return journey. The journey down on a Saturday morning took 3 hours. My own experiences of this route are as I've already stated. Take out Adare, NCW and Abbeyfeale and within the speed limit, Kerry will not be so off putting. Adare is the main problem with its link to the M20 project. But the waters are being further middied via the Foynes scheme.

spacetweek

Grandeeod wrote: »

Adare is the main problem with its link to the M20 project. But the waters are being further middied via the Foynes scheme.

True, it's now clear that the Adare bypass won't be done with M20 as was the original aim - now it's tied to Foynes.
This could be a good thing for Adare though since the M20 seems dead.

road_high

spacetweek wrote: »

True, it's now clear that the Adare bypass won't be done with M20 as was the original aim - now it's tied to Foynes.
This could be a good thing for Adare though since the M20 seems dead.

It'll take donkeys years for all this to happen. Will Adare get a bypass by 2025? This is truly appalling given the level of congestion here. Absolutely every effort should have been made to fast track this but not in this country!

Cookiemunster

road_high wrote: »

It'll take donkeys years for all this to happen. Will Adare get a bypass by 2025? This is truly appalling given the level of congestion here. Absolutely every effort should have been made to fast track this but not in this country!

The route selection for the Foynes route is already underway and the road is being funded by the EU under the T10 program. It will be under construction well before 2025.

spacetweek

road_high wrote: »

It'll take donkeys years for all this to happen. Will Adare get a bypass by 2025?

It is looking like it will be fast-tracked.

Axel Lamp

spacetweek wrote: »

It is looking like it will be fast-tracked.

Source????

Grandeeod

Was it really necessary to plan a completely new N21 alignment for the bypasses of Abbeyfeale and NCW? Surely individual bypasses of these towns tied into the existing N21 is adequate?

road_high

spacetweek wrote: »

It is looking like it will be fast-tracked.

Would Ya stop, how many decades have they been taking about this?! From the other side of the country so not overly familiar, but times I have passed through the congestion has been chronic. Some of the worst still existing in the country.

pajoguy

road_high wrote: »

Would Ya stop, how many decades have they been taking about this?! From the other side of the country so not overly familiar, but times I have passed through the congestion has been chronic. Some of the worst still existing in the country.

The limerick to foynes project will be "fast tracked" or prioritised may be more appropriate.It will be ready for construction by 2017 or 2018 at latest. Surley they will select one of the routes with an adare bypass.

spacetweek

road_high wrote: »

Would Ya stop, how many decades have they been taking about this?!

Throughout those decades, it wasn't eligible for EU funding. Now it is.

pigtown

If Ireland secures the 2023 rugby world cup it's likely that Killarney will be a venue, and then a bypass would be a must.

spacetweek

It's interesting that none of their proposed routes for the Foynes road actually connect to the N69 junction on the Limerick ring road.

Cookiemunster

spacetweek wrote: »

It's interesting that none of their proposed routes for the Foynes road actually connect to the N69 junction on the Limerick ring road.

The junction is a dumb bell junction on the already crazily busy Dock Road. By joining the N21/M20 it routes into the freeflow M7/N18/M20 junction.

marno21

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The junction is a dumb bell junction mess on the already crazily busy Dock Road. By joining the N21/M20 it routes into the freeflow M7/N18/M20 junction.

This would be much better leading onto the M20. Any traffic that can be removed from the N18/N69 junction is a major positive.

Only reason I'd link this road into the Dock Road junction would be if it was upgraded to freeflow, but knowing the NRA they would try to achieve the Guinness World Record for the world's largest signalised rounadbout.

marno21

AA Roadwatch now saying the realignment works on the Abbeyfeale side of Newcastlewest are to continue til December.

Any chance they could just build the Abbeyfeale - Adare scheme and stop with all the bollixing regarding roadworks? 8 months of works this year, we had the resurfacing of Newcastlewest last year and not too long ago the works at Barnagh

marno21

Barnagh - Killarney Pole (Phase 2) realignment is now almost complete. The new road is paved and lined but there's still a few bits to do as there's still cones out and the 60km/h limit remains in place.

7 months of disruption (especially the May bank holiday weekend for those that remember) for 1.5km of realigned road though

Suppose it's all we'll get for the moment until the Adare-Abbeyfeale scheme starts sometime in the 2030's

spacetweek

Can you show me where that is on a map?

lottpaul

spacetweek wrote: »

Can you show me where that is on a map?

52.437155, -9.092067 is the approx start reference point. Enter that on any google maps and it will bring you to the start of the present works. The new road is just to the south of the old N21 for just over 1km towards Abbeyfeale rejoining the existing N21 just before Garryduff Cross.

spacetweek

Page 5 of this doc on the proposed M28 is an interesting read.

According to the TII's logic, the new Ringaskiddy road must be motorway because the EU designated it a Trans European Network road, and the only road classification in Ireland that satisfies the EU's level of service requirements for TEN roads is motorway.

However, since Foynes to Limerick is also TEN, does that mean that the Adare bypass and new road to Foynes will also be motorway? That would be quite a lot if it was, about 31 km if they choose the route via Rathkeale.

Leonard Hofstadter

spacetweek wrote: »

Page 5 of this doc on the proposed M28 is an interesting read.

According to the TII's logic, the new Ringaskiddy road must be motorway because the EU designated it a Trans European Network road, and the only road classification in Ireland that satisfies the EU's level of service requirements for TEN roads is motorway.

However, since Foynes to Limerick is also TEN, does that mean that the Adare bypass and new road to Foynes will also be motorway? That would be quite a lot if it was, about 31 km if they choose the route via Rathkeale.

That's very interesting. They're surely not going to build a motorway from Rathkeale to Foynes:eek:? The Adare bypass most certainly should be a motorway (and while they're at it, they should re-classify the N21 east of Adare to motorway as it's the exact same standard of road as the M20 that it joins onto), and if they're going as far as Rathkeale, then to there should also be a full blown motorway as that road is extremely busy.

marno21

captainspeed wrote: »

That's very interesting. They're surely not going to build a motorway from Rathkeale to Foynes:eek:? The Adare bypass most certainly should be a motorway (and while they're at it, they should re-classify the N21 east of Adare to motorway as it's the exact same standard of road as the M20 that it joins onto), and if they're going as far as Rathkeale, then to there should also be a full blown motorway as that road is extremely busy.

The existing 1km or so of dual carriageway on the N21 can't be declared motorway at present as the only way for non motorway traffic to get off the road is to get off at the M20 junction, which is where the motorway starts anyway.

The N21 should be dualled along its length. I'd like to see the Headleys Bridge - Feale Bridge scheme retrofitted as it's completely grade separated. The only issue being the Feale bridge may be too narrow for 4 lanes.

Mrs Dempsey

marno21 wrote: »

............. I'd like to see the Headleys Bridge - Feale Bridge scheme retrofitted as it's completely grade separated. The only issue being the Feale bridge may be too narrow for 4 lanes.

There is one at grade junction - a dangerous right turn for Knocknagoshel when heading west; positioned at the end of a 2 lane overtaking section. Designed by a 2 year old? :eek:

marno21

Mrs Dempsey wrote: »

There is one at grade junction - a dangerous right turn for Knocknagoshel when heading west; positioned at the end of a 2 lane overtaking section. Designed by a 2 year old? :eek:

This turn can be accommodated by either the left turn onto the R576 (old N21) just before Feales Bridge heading westbound or the turn into the old N21 just where this scheme starts. The major junction on this scheme (for the R576 is effectively grade separated as there is two turn offs, one on the left side of the road and one on the right, albeit they are ~1km apart)

Mrs Dempsey

The left turn heading west before Feale bridge works but is not signed for Knocknagoshel or Listowel - the next junction has a sign for these destinations [an at grade right turn] suggesting that the "road planners" saw this as the primary exit. I generally take the left as you describe since coming close to being rear ended one wet night by someone extending their overtaking opportunity over the ghost (painted) traffic island. As I say designed by a 2 year old?

Carawaystick

spacetweek wrote: »

Page 5 of this doc on the proposed M28 is an interesting read.

According to the TII's logic, the new Ringaskiddy road must be motorway because the EU designated it a Trans European Network road, and the only road classification in Ireland that satisfies the EU's level of service requirements for TEN roads is motorway.

The Lynch Tunnel or Suir Cable stayed bridge fulfil those 3 requirements and are not Motorway

marno21

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2015/09/17/concern-over-n21-adare-road-improvement-works/

Plans afoot to upgrade the stretch of absolute dirt road on the Rathkeale side of Adare before it widens out to WS2.

Very bad stretch of road but will a) be bypassed by new N21/N69 road and b) will lead to substantial delays

Not safe to do near 100km/h on it at present

rliston

marno21 wrote: »

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2015/09/17/concern-over-n21-adare-road-improvement-works/

Plans afoot to upgrade the stretch of absolute dirt road on the Rathkeale side of Adare before it widens out to WS2.

Very bad stretch of road but will a) be bypassed by new N21/N69 road and b) will lead to substantial delays

Not safe to do near 100km/h on it at present

That's for the stretch in the village from the town hall to the ballingarry turn off, the section inside the 50 and 60 km/hspeed limt

marno21

The dip in the road just before the southern end of the Castleisland-Abbeyfeale 2006 scheme, near Headley's Bridge, is being repaired this week. A stop go system is in place.

pajoguy

marno21 wrote: »

The dip in the road just before the southern end of the Castleisland-Abbeyfeale 2006 scheme, near Headley's Bridge, is being repaired this week. A stop go system is in place.

Is this the dip thats been repaired more than once? Could be a spot for some light weight fill?
Its not a big area but it is material that has to be imported. Used on a much larger scale on the bunratty bypass.

marno21

pajoguy wrote: »

Is this the dip thats been repaired more than once? Could be a spot for some light weight fill?
Its not a big area but it is material that has to be imported. Used on a much larger scale on the bunratty bypass.

Yeah, that's the one. I passed it at night so didn't get a proper look at what was going on. To say the road is down to one lane for the week I'd assume it's a proper job this time and not throwing more tarmac up on it.

pedro6105

I passed today, they had one side dug out and had layers of steel mesh in the base of the trench and were just going pouring concrete onto it

Leonard Hofstadter

pedro6105 wrote: »

I passed today, they had one side dug out and had layers of steel mesh in the base of the trench and were just going pouring concrete onto it

Does that mean the problem will re-appear in a few years' time, then? Apologies if I've taken up the meaning of what you've said incorrectly.

spacetweek

captainspeed wrote: »

Does that mean the problem will re-appear in a few years' time, then? Apologies if I've taken up the meaning of what you've said incorrectly.

I think he means it won't. If they had only been resurfacing with no road base reconstruction, the problem would recur.

pedro6105

This repair should solve the problem permanently. The dip in the road was due to a pipe that crossed the road and was installed during the original construction of the road. The trench wasn't back filled correctly hence the subsidence in the road.