N21 Thread

Sponge Bob

mysterious wrote: »

It doesn't drop to 10.500 west of Adare.

It drops to 12500 of whom 2000 will enter ADARE and 10500 will bypass Adare according to the EIS you still won't read ( but that did not stop you giving out about it ) . In other words Adare (West) is not much busier than Barna (West) on the R336 and you do not see me ranting and raving about building Type 1 bypasses of Barna hereabouts. In fact a Type 2 would be overkill.

Those numbers are the FACT that underpins the selection of a Type 2.

I pulled another 1,000 out of a Stargate for you and now that is 11,500 Bypassing Adare.

In order to justify the Type 1 you need to find another few 1,000 cars Mysterious, now where are they ???

L1011

Sponge Bob wrote: »

In order to justify the Type 1 you need to find another few 1,000 cars Mysterious, now where are they ???

Atlantis?

bacon&cabbage

mysterious wrote: »

Oh ffs, get real, the Type 1 and 2 is not going to make any extra impact on ripping up the countryside. If we are going to base your silly assumption on a motorway ripping up the country side, Why should we let a Type 2 DC rip up the countryside.

Why did the inter urbans that has less traffic than this section get a motorway?

They get a motorway because of the very fact they are interurbans.
The Govt committed to providing a motorway to all the major cities

You obviously don't know the difference between a type 1 and type 2.

The vast vast majority of traffic trying to get to the West* side of Adare go through Adare. It the quickest way unfortunately. I know this because I go through the blasted place (no offence to Adare folk:D) twice a day and I've tried all the alternative routes.

I suggest you "get real"

mysterious

bacon&cabbage wrote: »

They get a motorway because of the very fact they are interurbans.
The Govt committed to providing a motorway to all the major cities

You obviously don't know the difference between a type 1 and type 2.

The vast vast majority of traffic trying to get to the east side of Adare go through Adare. It the quickest way unfortunately. I know this because I go through the blasted place (no offence to Adare folk:D) twice a day and I've tried all the alternative routes.

I suggest you "get real"

I do know the difference, your not in position to tell me what I don't know.

Vast majority of traffic east of Adare go through Adare. Do you know everyone that drives that road?

mysterious

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It drops to 12500 of whom 2000 will enter ADARE and 10500 will bypass Adare according to the EIS you still won't read ( but that did not stop you giving out about it ) . In other words Adare (West) is not much busier than Barna (West) on the R336 and you do not see me ranting and raving about building Type 1 bypasses of Barna hereabouts. In fact a Type 2 would be overkill.

Those numbers are the FACT that underpins the selection of a Type 2.

I pulled another 1,000 out of a Stargate for you and now that is 11,500 Bypassing Adare.

In order to justify the Type 1 you need to find another few 1,000 cars Mysterious, now where are they ???

Reading your posts is like trying to be serious but you just can't. The less I would say to you the better. Barna isn't even the topic here. Its Adare.

Interesting how you never stopped any other road in this country getting motorways, but yet here you are ranting and raving about who and where things should be put and done. Adare has higher traffic than all the current interurbans that have been built.

I made my point that Type 1 is sufficient to continue as it did in the previous bypass plans to allow future proofing since the opening year 2012 or whatever date will need type 1 anyway. Now its getting silly with alll these hairy references and assertions of this and that in this thread to make this look whatever way you want it to look.

Do you know that roads are built in other countries to be future proofed. Of all roads been built in this country I don't see why they cant build a proper dual carriegway.

Mc Love

Its good to have you back

bacon&cabbage

mysterious wrote: »

Vast majority of traffic east of Adare go through Adare. Do you know everyone that drives that road?

I don't need to know everyone.

Are you seriously suggesting that more than the AADT through the Village uses an alternative route to get to the West side of Adare.

tech2 wrote: »

On the alternative route there is none but only narrow local roads. Some drivers take this route around 5-6 in the evening when traffic is backed up to the WS2 part on the Limerick side. I know that some people take the N20 to Croom and then go to Newcastle West via Ballingarry during the summer months to avoid the bottleneck in Adare. This would not be a significant amount however.

1 more time mysterious- the quickest realistic way to the west side of Adare, is through Adare Village and the vast majority of traffic uses this route.

A very small proportion take the alternative routes as tech2 has suggested.

I'm basing this on facts and my experience commuting through the Village

Sponge Bob

bacon&cabbage wrote: »

1 more time mysterious- the quickest realistic way to the west side of Adare, is through Adare Village and the vast majority of traffic uses this route.
I'm basing this on facts

If it any <cough>help</cough> here is some further data from 2007. Facts are always nice and of course the experts around here may have some commentary to add , particularly on the bits I bolded.

It strikes me that much of this bolded traffic is eminently explicable to an informed commentator in the context of school runs / secondary school runs and the location of supervalu shops.

Existing Traffic Volumes

Location Road Number 2007 AADT

1 West of Abbeyfeale N21 9368
2 East of Abbeyfeale N21 9897
3 West of Newcastle West N21 10396
4 East of Newcastle West N21 13777
5 West of Rathkeale N21 13227
6 East of Rathkeale N21 13731
7 West of Abbeyfeale R555 2444
8 North of Abbeyfeale R524 3683
9 South of N21 R515 1336
10 South of Newcastle West R522 4839
11 South of Newcastle West R520 3657
12 North of Newcastle West R521 4230
13 North of N21 R523 1396
14 South of Rathkeale R518 2238
15 North of Rathkeale R518 2687
16 West of Rathkeale R523 750
17 East of Rathkeale R523 1088
18 East of N21 Old N21 2526

Note also

Projected Traffic Volumes on N21

Location Road Number 2027 AADT

1 West of Abbeyfeale N21 13704
2 East of Abbeyfeale N21 14478
3 West of Newcastle West N21 15208
4 East of Newcastle West N21 20154
5 West of Rathkeale N21 19350
6 East of Rathkeale N21 20087

mysterious

So basing on traffic growth over two years Rathkeale would be from 13,,700 to about 15,000.

Thats not Adare that Rathkeale, Which west of Croagh again... So the 10,500 figure again is not accurate.

Bear in mind Type 1 motorway handles something in the region of 38,000. Type 1 wide lane motorway is 55,000. it seems really short sighted to stick with type 2 even at Rathkeale, never mind the higher volums at Adare,. The fact that Adare is so close to Limerick it makes sense to have it type 1. Especially given the fact that You have both national primary traffic and commuter traffic generated. Lets not forget the growth of towns such as Ballingary, NCW, Tralee, Kilarney etc from 2007 till now. NCW grew about 55% in the last census.
That would have enormous impact on the future traffic volums counts.


After Rathkeale it seems perfectly acceptable and reasonable to keep it 2+2. I am bewildered why your so against the idea of future proofing a short busier section of road that realistically does demand a motorway more than pretty much most sections of motorway's opened in this country in the last 10 years..

Really strange Sponge Bob. Adare has traffic volumes of 16000. Over a 20 year period would be well over 32.000 if it were based on bypass figures with growth of the towns along the N21 and with the Limerick hinterland growing beyond Adare. Type 1 is needed at least to east of Rathkeale. Infact The Adare bypass should be given motorway status to its end at the M20 with the N21 joining as a fork to the M20. Leaving a another off slip to proceed onto a dumbell interchange to where the current planned junction of the Adare junction is planned.

mysterious

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If it any <cough>help</cough> here is some further data from 2007. Facts are always nice and of course the experts around here may have some commentary to add , particularly on the bits I bolded.

It strikes me that much of this bolded traffic is eminently explicable to an informed commentator in the context of school runs / secondary school runs and the location of supervalu shops.

Existing Traffic Volumes

Location Road Number 2007 AADT

1 West of Abbeyfeale N21 9368
2 East of Abbeyfeale N21 9897
3 West of Newcastle West N21 10396
4 East of Newcastle West N21 13777
5 West of Rathkeale N21 13227
6 East of Rathkeale N21 13731
7 West of Abbeyfeale R555 2444
8 North of Abbeyfeale R524 3683
9 South of N21 R515 1336
10 South of Newcastle West R522 4839
11 South of Newcastle West R520 3657
12 North of Newcastle West R521 4230
13 North of N21 R523 1396
14 South of Rathkeale R518 2238
15 North of Rathkeale R518 2687
16 West of Rathkeale R523 750
17 East of Rathkeale R523 1088
18 East of N21 Old N21 2526

Note also

Projected Traffic Volumes on N21

Location Road Number 2027 AADT

1 West of Abbeyfeale N21 13704
2 East of Abbeyfeale N21 14478
3 West of Newcastle West N21 15208
4 East of Newcastle West N21 20154
5 West of Rathkeale N21 19350
6 East of Rathkeale N21 20087

Bear in mind existing traffic volumes is not the year 2007. We are now in 2010.

Could you send me the link for the 2007 figures. I would look like to look at them.

Thanks.

Sponge Bob

mysterious wrote: »

So basing on traffic growth over two years Rathkeale would be from 13,,700 to about 15,000.

Ehhhh no. You see we know that east of Adare was 16500 in 2009 but we rely on this post here to see that it was 15600 in 2004 .

However Traffic Counter Data shows that every month ( bar maybe 1 ) in 2009 WAS DOWN ON THE SAME MONTH IN 2008 east of Adare. The SAME data shows 2008 was static over 2007 or slightly down.

Therefore traffic east of Rathkeale is ON BALANCE more likely to be DOWN Mysterious.

I take it that the 15600 number in that link came from the Adare Bypass constraints study in 2004 and was not plucked out of thin air.

Therefore 2004-2009 growth was only 900 TOTAL and we must assume that Rathkeale east only grew by 180 a year since 2007 where you were nearer 500 a year

Thats not Adare that Rathkeale, Which west of Croagh again... So the 10,500 figure again is not accurate.

The comparable figure is 12500 west of Adare like I said _rather_often_ .

After Rathkeale it seems perfectly acceptable and reasonable to keep it 2+2.

It does, we have agreement Here is the source you requested for those numbers

http://www.midwestroads.ie/N21%20Abbeyfeale%20Adare/Pdf/Ind%20Constraints%20Study%20Report.pdf

mysterious

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Ehhhh no. You see we know that east of Adare was 16500 in 2009 but we rely on this post here to see that it was 15600 in 2004 .

However Traffic Counter Data shows that every month ( bar maybe 1 ) in 2009 WAS DOWN ON THE SAME MONTH IN 2008 east of Adare. The SAME data shows 2008 was static over 2007 or slightly down.

Therefore traffic east of Rathkeale is ON BALANCE more likely to be DOWN Mysterious.

I take it that the 15600 number in that link came from the Adare Bypass constraints study in 2004 and was not plucked out of thin air.

Therefore 2004-2009 growth was only 900 TOTAL and we must assume that Rathkeale east only grew by 180 a year since 2007 where you were nearer 500 a year



The comparable figure is 12500 west of Adare like I said _rather_often_ .



It does, we have agreement Here is the source you requested for those numbers

http://www.midwestroads.ie/N21%20Abbeyfeale%20Adare/Pdf/Ind%20Constraints%20Study%20Report.pdf

That 16600 is still gonna use the bypass. The only reason traffic is down because Adare is a town that people avoid with tailbacks. Its like counters near any bottleneck they remain static. Just like the N9 just north of Carlow remained static and even decreased. While south of Carlow increased. Same applies for Enfield and Kildare as I said earliar.

So if the road handles now 16.500 and dwindles down to 13800 at NCW and Rathkeale.

Its obviosu that the Adare bypass needs to be Type 1 as its close to Limerick and the M20. The latter of it can be type 2.

Funny how why you seem do adamant of a road to be future proofed. The Rathkeale count in a low growth 20 year period states traffic to already be over 20,000. If population continues to swell in towns such as Adare and NCW, its safe to say even the Rathkeale section deserves type to the east of it. Adare bypass needs to be type 1 at this stage regardless.

16500 is still part of the bypass section. And traffic doesn't dwindle down to just below 14,000 west of Adare. That is Rathkeale.

type 2 is outdated for Adare and the facts show. Now you keep throwing Rathkeale into the equation, but the fact that section will also reach 20,000 a day.

mysterious

Your also taking traffic figures from the Rathkeale to Abbeyfeale scheme. Not really Adare or even anything to do with the Adare scheme that ties into the M20. Croagh is also east of Adare and Croagh is east of Adare there are many feeder routes joining to the N21 that probably gives Adare a lot more traffic since commuter traffic rises as it gets closer to Limerick city. Traffic rises on all national routes on approaches to a large population centre such as Galway, Limerick or Cork this is a well known fact.

So even the 2+2 Abbeyfeale to Adare scheme already peaks to 20,000. At Adare it will peak over 20,000 even in the opening year. Which is why is logical to ensure that the Adare bypass has the capacity of a road of at least 38,000.

The Limerick southern ring road near Rossbrien needs a third lane each way now. I would consider a third lane or at least have the M20 wide median till the Adare turn off. LIke approach motorways are wider near Cork or Galway. Thus it would be far better to have the Adare bypass built to a proper dual carriageway standard..

Sponge Bob

That 16600 is still gonna use the bypass.

No they are not. Now stop conflating "to" with "through". Everybody else knows the difference ....even you

mysterious wrote: »

So even the 2+2 Abbeyfeale to Adare scheme already peaks to 20,000.

I gave you the 2007 figures, none of which were anywhere near 20,000. In that context your statement there is utterly delusional.

You have failed miserably to find the traffic to justify a Type 1 either now or any time soon.

You Contact the NRA like you said you would and give out to them like you said you would. Report back here on what they say

mysterious

Sponge Bob wrote: »

No they are not. Now stop conflating "to" with "through". Everybody else knows the difference ....even you



I gave you the 2007 figures, none of which were anywhere near 20,000. In that context your statement there is utterly delusional.

You have failed miserably to find the traffic to justify a Type 1 either now or any time soon.

You Contact the NRA like you said you would and give out to them like you said you would. Report back here on what they say

You see we design roads that are future proofed. The Abbeyfeale to Adare reaches peak flows at Rathkeale at 20.837 for 2027. You do realise that NCW and Adare have big development plans for the future. With all these bypasses you can surely bet traffic will grow. The N21 has gotten little attention these years.

So its the best way forward to future proof these roads at least the Croagh section will be type 1, simply because by 2027 traffic will double from 16,500 to at leat 30,000. Seems crazy to keep the Adare bypass type 2 when its so close to Limerick. :eek:

The NRA can read here

mysterious

Sponge Bob wrote: »

No they are not. Now stop conflating "to" with "through". Everybody else knows the difference ....even you

Well 99percent of the traffic will go through Adare. its why its a bottleneck thats suffers tailbacks on each side of the town.

mysterious

Sponge Bob maybe you should campaign against the Gort to Tuam Scheme been motorway too.

I haven't seen you against the motorway there/:)

Sponge Bob

mysterious wrote: »

Sponge Bob maybe you should campaign against the Gort to Tuam Scheme been motorway too

Gort is on an MIU although traffic levels are similar to Adare, traffic drops by 4000 across the town same as Adare. The drop is to the south.

Traffic conditions further north do justify a Type 1 but only if one ( like the NRA) believes that motorists will travel via Athenry to get to Galway. However it is an MIU. North of Tuam is certainly not an MIU.

The current fannying around with the M20 'northern' section indicates that the NRA are getting knock kneed about putting a Type 1 where a Type 2 may be made do ....even on an MIU.

Gort-Crusheen does not really deserve a Type 1 , bit late now though But unlike you I just kept quiet about it when they built the motorway on the quiet bit :cool:

mysterious

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Gort is on an MIU although traffic levels are similar to Adare, traffic drops by 4000 across the town same as Adare. The drop is to the south.

Traffic conditions further north do justify a Type 1 but only if one ( like the NRA) believes that motorists will travel via Athenry to get to Galway. However it is an MIU. North of Tuam is certainly not an MIU.

The current fannying around with the M20 'northern' section indicates that the NRA are getting knock kneed about putting a Type 1 where a Type 2 may be made do ....even on an MIU.

Gort-Crusheen does not really deserve a Type 1 , bit late now though But unlike you I just kept quiet about it when they built the motorway on the quiet bit :cool:

No.. LOL.


Traffic is less than Adare. Get your fact rights. Why does this road which has less traffic than Adare and Gort N18 get a motorway. Surely by your logic, we don't need a motorway at Gort. 2+2 is perfectly acceptable here too. Especially since it has traffic around 12,000 a day.


Its just interesting why you don't make much heat about this scheme and yet seem so bias about Adare bypass which actually deserves type 1.

Sponge Bob

You go give out to the NRA what done this to you Mysterious like you promised. They do be quaking at the thought.

You are still stuck on 11500 a day including the stargate premium.

mysterious

No I will have my opportunity.:p

They be here reading this.

lordofthedung

Hi All

great to see you all arguing about what type of road the N21 should become but can anyone explain to me where the money will come from considering we (the country) are borrowing 80 million a day just to run the country. Now I know if I went to my friendly bank manager with a project that needed say 500 million to complete the first question he will ask me is "prove to me by profit & Loss and cash flow projections how it will pay for itself ", can any of you road experts tell me how many cars you would need daily to pay for a project that will cost 500 million and where they will come from and don't tell me the taxpayer I want to hear increased tourist traffic etc. I mean new money from outside this country.

I came from Dublin Airport today and boy would they want to get their act together up there on that M50 it is like Beirut and talk about third world after you get passed the mad cow what obstacle hits you straight away only the traffic lights at Newlands cross now that's looking to the future, these traffic lights are in place for the last 30 years when are they going to give us a free motorway there. They have the traffic volumes up there to justify any type of road and they still have not got it right.

L1011

Newlands X has gone to tender for a PPP and should start construction within a year. Hopefully.

Chris_5339762

PPPs are the way forward but I doubt the N21 will get served by any of them. Adare will hopefully be included in the M20 Northern Section, but the rest of the N21 will have to do for now.

Sponge Bob

lordofthedung wrote: »

Now I know if I went to my friendly bank manager with a project that needed say 500 million to complete the first question he will ask me is "prove to me by profit & Loss and cash flow projections how it will pay for itself ", can any of you road experts tell me how many cars you would need daily to pay for a project that will cost 500 million.

Mysterious will set you straight my son! He constantly told the rest of us how the Adare Bypass is ( effectively) the busiest road in Ireland and damn sure he will tell you too

lordofthedung

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

PPPs are the way forward but I doubt the N21 will get served by any of them. Adare will hopefully be included in the M20 Northern Section, but the rest of the N21 will have to do for now.

Hi Chris, as long as I as a taxpayer do not have to pay the PPP for any shortage of money they cannot get from the N20 Adare bypass toll I dont mind because I will not be using it then great build away.
Why should we have to wait for bypasses of NCW & Abbeyfeale, these are needed now like the Rathkeale bypass and will cost only 30 million. Anyway no matter what kind of motorway/dual carriageway they have in mind in 15 years time to the southside of these towns they will still need bypass roads to the northside of these towns as well to take heavy goods traffic coming from Foynes Port, Askeaton area through NCW and traffic going to Listowel, Ballybunion through Abbeyfeale.

L1011

The Adare BP won't be tolled. All the currently tabled PPPs are "shadow toll" where the state pays the toll (albeit at a much reduced rate than a consumer would due to no collection costs, no VAT, etc).

lordofthedung

MYOB wrote: »

The Adare BP won't be tolled. All the currently tabled PPPs are "shadow toll" where the state pays the toll (albeit at a much reduced rate than a consumer would due to no collection costs, no VAT, etc).

Thanks Myob but please inform me who or what is the state?

L1011

lordofthedung wrote: »

Thanks Myob but please inform me who or what is the state?

The permanent government of the country...

lordofthedung

MYOB wrote: »

The permanent government of the country...

Thanks Myob and please tell me where the state gets its money?