N21 Thread

Amtmann

The lads in the Kerry forum are doing our job for us (although lots of familiar faces, I see).

December 2009 Newsletter is attached.

mysterious

This is great news, but this is just giving more reasons that Adare and NCW need their bypasses now.

Tech3

The only overbridge on the scheme opened yesterday

CantonaDieu wrote: »

The overbridge on the pound rd en route to the Maum opened today! Good news for Curranes school users and the locals who were cut off from town!!

BluntGuy

Oh Lord, the way that newsletter was written:

In the beginning of the new year, it is
expected that all aspects of the job
will be back in full swing.

The drainage and road works will be
due for completion before the
summer.

The construction of Golf Course Road
Underpass off the Limerick Road will
be undertaken in the coming weeks
and traffic restrictions will be in
place to allow for this.

Someone needs to proof-read it next time. :cool:

mysterious

Is the Limerick end interchange a flyover. It better be not a bloody roundabout again! lazy rubbish.

fresca

Just thought I'd kick this thread off...

Kerry Co Co page:
http://www.kerrycoco.ie/en/allservices/roads/n21abbeyfealetoadare/
PDF on scheme:
http://www.kerrycoco.ie/en/allservices/roads/n21abbeyfealetoadare/thefile,1498,en.pdf

Mid-West Roads page:
http://www.midwestroads.ie/N21%20Abbeyfeale%20Adare/Abbeyfeale%20Home.htm

I appreciate that we're a bit away from construction

Sponge Bob

The greens cancelled this and 93 other N road projects for as long as they are in government. Can we lock this thread until they are gone please.

fresca

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The greens cancelled this and 93 other N road projects for as long as they are in government..

I guess that really helps the people of Newcastle-West who have a set of traffice lights in the middle of their town. Also the people of Abbeyfeale, which constantly seems to have a tail back...

Sponge Bob

Only about 5 N road projects are alive in any form, the four large proposed PPPs including Cork Limerick and the Adare bypass (that is in a deep coma but alive) and the Galway Bypass ...or part of it.

All you can do west Limerick is complete the route selection. No further work will be funded such as detailed design or EIS . Ask John Gormley and Eamon Ryan why they killed the project.

Tech3

The N21 is in real need of upgrading from the Kerry border to Attyfln (J4 of the M20).

It has been ignored for years, very bad bottlenecks at Adare, Newcastle-west and Abbeyfeale. After the PPP's this road should be prioritized as well as the N24, N5 and N17 north of Tuam.

The traffic on the route is very heavy from Limerick to NCW. I have yet to see any traffic counts though from south of Adare to NCW, but it's recorded at 25K passing through Adare town itself. I would estimate 15-20K AADT at least.

South of NCW has a lot less in the region of 9 or 10K. 2+2 is not really needed here but the NRA are going to build it that regardless.

Zoney

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The greens cancelled this and 93 other N road projects for as long as they are in government. Can we lock this thread until they are gone please.

There's no use having that kind of attitude about it. I for one don't believe that they will be allowed to prevent all these projects except during the current period (hopefully a trough of only months before at least enough of a recovery to go ahead with a couple of smaller projects) when it is not financially feasible to go ahead with much. I think the "giving in to the Greens" is just a political stunt that costs FF little - they had to postpone all these anyway (or intended to) and this way they can blame the Greens.

In any case, I fail to see the issue in at least some discussion of *planned* road projects (and regardless of the hold-up - they are planned at some stage).

Plus this government will not be around forever, and however much FF may manage to avoid a complete bloodbath (I still worry they'll recover in the polls a bit) the Greens have NOT A HOPE of avoiding complete and utter annihilation (and despite having some environmental sentiments myself, I cannot *wait* until this happens).

Tech3

mysterious wrote: »

Is the Limerick end interchange a flyover. It better be not a bloody roundabout again! lazy rubbish.

There is no compact GSJ's on the scheme. 3 at-grade roundabouts are being built for these junctions.

Sponge Bob

Zoney wrote: »

There's no use having that kind of attitude about it. I for one don't believe that they will be allowed to prevent all these projects except during the current period (hopefully a trough of only months before at least enough of a recovery to go ahead with a couple of smaller projects)

We have up to 2.5 years more of this lot and they will hang on until the bitter end ( and of course the ministerial pensions after 4 years)

No new roads in 2010 2011 and 2012 .

The Greens have NOT A HOPE of avoiding complete and utter annihilation (and despite having some environmental sentiments myself, I cannot *wait* until this happens).

I agree. The FF vermin are too deeply embedded to go away.

fresca

Regardless of what the greens think... simple fact is that the n21 tralee to limerick requires investment. (i'll also argue that the n22 tralee to cork requires investment).

if the greens prioritise the building of the metro north ... doesn't that just contribute to the marginalisation of what they call the regions (i really, really HATE that term!!!)?

mysterious

Greens are too incompetetent to be listened too.

BluntGuy

Merged threads.

We only need one N21 thread.

Edit: Reason: Not many N21 schemes are likely to start, there is only one under construction at the moment, so there's no point spreading the discussion too thin.

Sponge Bob

The N22 is sadly in the same state, may as well throw that in with the N21 seeing as the greens also got FF to cancel the Ballyvourney Macroom Ballincollig section and the Killarney Farranfore bit.

fresca

BluntGuy wrote: »

Merged threads.

We only need one N21 thread.

Edit: Reason: Not many N21 schemes are likely to start, there is only one under construction at the moment, so there's no point spreading the discussion too thin.

Hey, 2 suggestions...

There are 2 N21 threads:
1 in infrastructure (this one)
1 in Region > South > Kerry .. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055481893
Maybe you want to consider merging these also?


Also, there are two N22 threads...
this one is on the Tralee bypass..
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055692714
and this one is on the Macroom to Ballyvourney stretch
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055297495
As both threads have limited entries, would you consider a merge also?

Thanks.

fresca

I have also posted these photos in the alternative n21 thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055481893.

photos taken on the 28th dec 2009.
n21_01 is of the new bridge on the pound road
n21_02 & n21_03 are views from the bridge looking south
n21_04 is a view from the bridge looking north

as you can see, all the work has really focused on getting the bridge complete and the road open to ease access for local residents. (fair play to contractors!!!)

n21_05 is of the underpass located a few hundred meters south of the bridge

D'Peoples Voice

fresca wrote: »

I have also posted these photos in the alternative n21 thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055481893.

photos taken on the 28th dec 2009.
n21_01 is of the new bridge on the pound road
n21_02 & n21_03 are views from the bridge looking south
n21_04 is a view from the bridge looking north

I don't understand the last photo, why would they purposely make the bridge so narrow that the road underneath can never be widened to allow two vehicles pass under the bridge at the same time, maybe the road is to be one-way. Maybe its just the lens, but the road looks awful narrow, wouldn't like to meet an artic close to that bridge!

Roryhy

It doesn't seem too narrow to me, just the minimum required i would think.

fresca

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

I don't understand the last photo, why would they purposely make the bridge so narrow that the road underneath can never be widened to allow two vehicles pass under the bridge at the same time, maybe the road is to be one-way. Maybe its just the lens, but the road looks awful narrow, wouldn't like to meet an artic close to that bridge!

The road itself is quite narrow.
2 cars would probably not pass side-by-side on it.
but i take your point...

murphaph

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

I don't understand the last photo, why would they purposely make the bridge so narrow that the road underneath can never be widened to allow two vehicles pass under the bridge at the same time, maybe the road is to be one-way. Maybe its just the lens, but the road looks awful narrow, wouldn't like to meet an artic close to that bridge!

It looks wide enough for two vehicles to me. It's already a lot wider than the road which passes through it. A boreen like this will likely (and quite rightly probably) never need widenning, unless we persist with the awdul urbanisation of the countryside that has basically destroyed huge parts of our country.

fresca

according to the department of transport press release... the N21 adare bypass will proceed to cpo during 2010.

http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=170

Chris_5339762

Its lumped in with the northern M20 scheme under a PPP that has been long-fingered, so wont be touched until that is. Think 2015 before diggers are on the ground, at the earliest.

Tech3

February photo updates on the Castleisland bypass here

fresca

is there anyway that these 2 castleisland threads can be merged, please?
... this one in infrastructure...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055776672
... this one in region -> south -> kerry
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64543239

we're repeating the information across these threads.

Thanks.

Tech3

fresca wrote: »

is there anyway that these 2 castleisland threads can be merged, please?
... this one in infrastructure...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055776672
... this one in region -> south -> kerry
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64543239

we're repeating the information across these threads.

Thanks.

I originally put the Castleisland bypass thread in the Kerry forum because I thought it would gather more interest there. It's a great thread (Castleisland bypass) so far so dont see why we should merge them tbh.

This thread is for general N21 updates which covers a lot of road but there isint much updates on here.

Tech3

Some protesting about the N21 Adare to Abbeyfeale scheme. The quicker people realise that the N21 is primarily needed to link Tralee with Limerick the better.

The bypasses are a little offline but there will be a good link road to access the 2+2 sections. I cant find any information re the Abbeyfeale and NCW junctions. For the towns of their size, surely both warrnat LILO's and not roundabouts. Templeglantine locals have been whinging for the last number of years about a proposed bypass now they have stepped up a gear with the route selection stage. Finally I hope they realise eventually it's not a motorway.

Protesters call NRA's proposal for N21 an economic bypass of Limerick



THE N21 Abbeyfeale to Adare dual carriageway is an economic bypass of West Limerick and a boom for Kerry tourism and industry believes Ger Kearney of the N21 Group Action Association.
Mr Kearney was speaking at a special meeting of Limerick County Council on the "N21 Abbeyfeale to Adare road improvement scheme".

Over 100 people from West Limerick travelled to the council chamber in Dooradoyle to voice their anger at the proposals.

The N21 Group Action Association wants to see bypasses of Adare, Newcastle West and Abbeyfeale straight away at a cost of around €40 million compared to a 42km dual carriageway which Mr Kearney says will cost €400 million.

"If it goes ahead it will sound the death knell for tourism in West Limerick as well as putting a lot of farmers out of business unnecessarily.

"Also if it is not built for the next 10 to 20 years because of our present economic climate, and if a route is selected in the meantime then the land that the carriageway will be built on will be sterilized for that 10 to 20 years. That will stagnate farming and business and depress the economic situation in West Limerick and the general public will still be faced with traffic jams in Adare, Newcastle West and Abbeyfeale," said Mr Kearney.

David Leahy, senior executive engineer of the Mid-West National Road Design Office, Limerick County Council, who opened the meeting, said the dual carriageway, or improved N21, from Abbeyfeale to Adare would reduce accidents, fuel consumption, travel times and through traffic for Abbeyfeale and Newcastle West town centres.

He said they were working in consultation with the NRA to progress the N21 improvement scheme in accordance with NRA project management guidelines.

Following a constraints study report six route corridor options were chosen and currently the Mid-West National Road Design Office is choosing the preferred route.

"This may be any one of the three options from end to end or an amalgamation of any of the three options. The NRA will carry out an independent assessment of the preferred route corridor," said Mr Leahy.
While member of the N21 Group Action Association listened to Mr Leahy's presentation they don't want to see it realised.

Mr Kearney said the dual carriageway will cost €400 million with no European money available.

LIVELY DISCUSSION AT MEETING: Opposition to the proposed new N21 motorway is growing in the locality as was evidenced at last week's large meeting of parishioners. Even people who would not be affected directly by any of the proposed routes are strongly of the opinion that the expenditure of such vast sums on the project in a depressed economic climate is not justified. The alternative of bypasses close to the neighbouring towns and upgrading of the present N21 is in the opinion of many, a far more realistic and suitable option. It has been noted also that there has been a marked drop in the volume of traffic, coinciding with the downturn in the economy. After last week's meeting the local action group issued the following statement, "TEMPLEGLANTINE MOTORWAY – NO WAY" - On Tuesday 2nd February a large crowd attended a meeting in Halla Inse Bhán in relation to the proposed motorway. This motorway will split the parish in two with absolutely no benefit to the parishioners. In fact the meeting concluded that it would be detrimental to our local shops and hotel and to the farming community and all present were unanimously opposed to the motorway. A number of people were nominated to attend a follow up meeting in Knockaderry on the following night 3rd February. At this meeting it was decided to have a protest outside the County Hall, Dooradoyle on February 15th at 2.30pm. It is vital that we get good support for this protest. All parishes and towns along the proposed route are asked to support the protest in large numbers. When sufficient numbers are available a bus will be provided. Names will be taken at the next meeting which will be held on Thursday 11th February at 8.30pm in Halla Inse Bhán where it is hoped that many more people will show their support.

And ..... Abbeyfeale have been shouting aswell

OPPOSITION in Abbeyfeale to plans for the major redevelopment of the N21 through West Limerick as proposed by the National Roads Authority is expected to be voiced at a public meeting on Sunday night.

Currently at routeselection stage, the National Roads Authority are hoping to develop a 45km section of dual carriageway from Adare to the Kerry border outside Abbeyfeale, bypassing both Newcastle West and Adare.

However, the plans are meeting with opposition in the town of Abbeyfeale where locals are concerned the town would be left 'completely isolated' by all three of the proposed routes — which they say would bypass the town too far to the south.

"Under NRA policy itself no town is to be left isolated by a bypass, but this is exactly what would happen with Abbeyfeale," objector James Hartnett told The Kerryman.

" The whole project will come in at an estimated cost of €400 million, which is exorbitant, and we will be looking at a project that might not get off the ground for at least 10 years," Mr Hartnett said.

He claimed that a majority of townspeople are opposed to the plan, despite the town's problems with traffic congestion at peak times.

" Rather than having this golden road begin in 10 years time, we need to see the congestion alleviated now through two ring-roads with upgrading works to the existing roads. The proposal simply doesn't make sense and Abbeyfeale would probably be one of the worst affected of all the towns concerned as the three proposed bypasses of the town will take the road out by Tournafula, much too far away to facilitate easy access to the town," Mr Hartnett said.

Link

fresca

ah sure, god help us!!!

an upgrade of the n21 is not a by-pass of west limerick!!!

Chris_5339762

Its a shame the M20 crowd cant do as much shouting. Noone in Buttevant, Charleville etc has ever said a peep.

L1011

Possibly because they're not stupid enough to think the M20 is a bad idea?

bacon&cabbage

Reminds me of the people that objected to a bypass of Adare when the now M20 was being built.

The same people are now campaigning for an Adare bypass :rolleyes:

There are countless examples of towns/villages that are now thriving after being bypassed.

Irish and Proud

tech2 wrote: »

Some protesting about the N21 Adare to Abbeyfeale scheme. The quicker people realise that the N21 is primarily needed to link Tralee with Limerick the better.

The bypasses are a little offline but there will be a good link road to access the 2+2 sections. I cant find any information re the Abbeyfeale and NCW junctions. For the towns of their size, surely both warrnat LILO's and not roundabouts. Templeglantine locals have been whinging for the last number of years about a proposed bypass now they have stepped up a gear with the route selection stage. Finally I hope they realise eventually it's not a motorway.
And ..... Abbeyfeale have been shouting aswell

Link

...and I'm sure the very same people are happy to have the M7 and M20 (Adare to Limerick section). What if the people of North Tipperary were to kick up and delay the M7, or the people of Clare and Galway kick up and delay the M17/M18, or the people of North Cork to kick up and delay the M20 - would the objectors from West Limerick be happy then! They can't have it all their own way!

IMO, Kerry have established themselves as a major tourist destination, and they should have at least one decent road - in fact, I would like to see the road as far a Abbeyfeale as motorway, but a 2+2 will be far better than what was there when I was travelling to Kerry in 1991 - is the Rathkeale bypass the only improvement since then? Also in 1991, we went straight to Kerry (from Meath) without stopping anywhere - apart from stopping in the hard shoulder for a lunch from the picnic box (no benefit for anyone along the way then). Why did we not visit anywhere along the way??? Because the journey took too long - largely on account of the poor road infrastructure. In fact, when my parents go down the country nowadays to Wexford etc, they make a day of it on the way up and visit places - the improved roads make that possible.

In short, stiffling infrastructure is no answer to stopping economic bleeding of towns or areas en-route. In any case, people will go to areas which are served by better infrastructure. Many towns will initially lose out on passing traffic when there's a new bypass, but there are often many opportunities presented in the aftermath of a bypass opening. Towns and rural localities have got to compete for business - that's simply the way it is.

Regards!

lordofthedung

1250 acres €750,000,000 can you afford this, going south side of NCW and Abbeyfeale will not help Traffic in these towns, 13000 cars Adare, 7000 Castleisland who get bypass first?. Also bypass of Adare crazy who wants to go to Croom to get to the other side of Adare.

Tech3

lordofthedung wrote: »

1250 acres €750,000,000 can you afford this

It hasnt reached the CPO stage and wont for quite some time. The whole project wont cost that much never mind the land costs.

going south side of NCW and Abbeyfeale will not help Traffic in these towns

Eh, Yes it will. The main Limerick-Tralee traffic wont pass through either of these towns and will use the new 2+2 bypass instead. There will be a small amount of local traffic left.

13000 cars Adare, 7000 Castleisland who get bypass first?.

Castleisland bypass was in layman terms "ready to go" (tender) so that got the nod ahead of other projects and the price was also key on the cheap at 22 million over two years. The Adare bypass is now part of the M20 PPP which cant go ahead because there is another one-two years of stages to get through before it cant get to tender.

Also bypass of Adare crazy who wants to go to Croom to get to the other side of Adare.

The N21 is primarily a link between Tralee and Limerick City. If people want to get home just south of Adare use the current road. The routing is questionable only due to the curving alignment of it and the interchange on the M20. The area where it passes is ok and having it included in the M20 PPP gives it a good chance of going to construction in the coming years.

Mrmoe

I think the road between Limerick and Tralee is not too bad it is just NCW and Abbeyfeale that are the bottlenecks. Otherwise the road itself is fine. A few areas would need to be upgraded alright (between NCW and the top of Barna).

When NCW and Abbeyfeale are bypassed it will definitely destroy them. They will effectively become commuter/residential towns which might be the most sustainable anyway. It will be very difficult for them to sustain an industry based on tourism as they are surrounded by towns/areas that are more established in the tourism trade. Rathkeale used to be one of the most prosperous towns in Limerick but now it is more or less a ghost town I would say largely due to it being bypassed.

The route selction for NCW bypass should be more straightforward than for Abbeyfeale. The fact that Abbeyfeale is sandwiched between the Hill and the Feale will make life a bit more difficult. Route selection for Templeglantine is more straighforward due to the alignment of the village. Castleisland is lucky in this way as the current road positioning/alignments make the bypass very easy to plan for.

It is a pity that there isn't enough foresight to redevelop the old railway track line as a light rail commuter service. It would benefit the Limerick/Kerry region hugely.

Zoney

The inherent problem with even west County Limerick is the lack of boundary extension for Limerick city. This has held back coherent development of the city, which as a regional economic hub, would benefit the county too. At the same time, the County council, without city suburbs to rely on, would have no option but to up their game in terms of planning for the county and trying to make something of it. NCW would *have* to be their focus. It's not acceptable for example that the county council offices stand just outside the city area as a kind of territory marking, rather than sit in the centre of the county, in the county town of NCW. It would do county councillors good even just to have to work in the county proper.

Ultimately the central government in Dublin are to blame as they should be organising such matters as part of a national spacial strategy rather than avoiding political trouble or pandering to short-sighted local concerns.

lordofthedung

[Q

UOTE=tech2;64791109]It hasnt reached the CPO stage and wont for quite some time. The whole project wont cost that much never mind the land costs.

Use 1250 acres of best land in Ireland to carry maybe 8000 cars per day in July Aug not on, total cost €750,000,000 including land will you give us that money? Country borrowing €80,000,000 per day to live not to mind what we are into for NAMA we are broke, will not be build for 20 years what happens in meantime do we live with traffic jams in Adare, NCW Abbeyfeale? Why not put in bypasses now cost maybe €50,000,000 badly needed and if needed in 20 years time do motorway.

Eh, Yes it will. The main Limerick-Tralee traffic wont pass through either of these towns and will use the new 2+2 bypass instead. There will be a small amount of local traffic left.

8000 cars per day July Aug. on PPP who will pick up ballance.

Castleisland bypass was in layman terms "ready to go" (tender) so that got the nod ahead of other projects and the price was also key on the cheap at 22 million over two years. The Adare bypass is now part of the M20 PPP which cant go ahead because there is another one-two years of stages to get through before it cant get to tender.

Agree with Castleisland but again think who will pick up tab for all this.

The N21 is primarily a link between Tralee and Limerick City. If people want to get home just south of Adare use the current road. The routing is questionable only due to the curving alignment of it and the interchange on the M20. The area where it passes is ok and having it included in the M20 PPP gives it a good chance of going to construction in the coming years.

[/QUOTE]

Spot on with 5000 to 6000 car using old road, you will still have traffic jams in Adare because nobody local from Adare to NCW to Abbeyfeale will use toll road it is fair then that you want these people to help pay for the dual carriageway, borrowing €750,000,000 cost over 40 years at 2% fixed will need 30,000 cars per day 365 days a year @ €2.50 each just to pay for road not to mind upkeep and profit for ppp.

Tech3

Mrmoe wrote: »

The route selction for NCW bypass should be more straightforward than for Abbeyfeale. The fact that Abbeyfeale is sandwiched between the Hill and the Feale will make life a bit more difficult. Route selection for Templeglantine is more straighforward due to the alignment of the village. Castleisland is lucky in this way as the current road positioning/alignments make the bypass very easy to plan for.

Route options were announced nearly 6 months ago now. Once it's not the blue option as I think it's too far from the towns of Abbeyfeale and Newcastle West. The towns have to be bypassed though. I know it will affect passing trade but we cant settle for 3rd world infrastructure anymore. The national primary roads at least should be a high quality routes.



http://www.midwestroads.ie/N21%20Abbeyfeale%20Adare/Pdf/Brochure.pdf

Tech3

lordofthedung wrote: »

Use 1250 acres of best land in Ireland to carry maybe 8000 cars per day in July Aug not on, total cost €750,000,000 including land will you give us that money? Country borrowing €80,000,000 per day to live not to mind what we are into for NAMA we are broke, will not be build for 20 years what happens in meantime do we live with traffic jams in Adare, NCW Abbeyfeale? Why not put in bypasses now cost maybe €50,000,000 badly needed and if needed in 20 years time do motorway.

The Adare to Abbeyfeale scheme will not cost €750 million. It's not going to be motorway only reduced dual carriageway which is of a similar width to a wide single carriageway road and cost similar. I'd hazard a guess that the road will cost 200-300 million. Here is a type 2 dual carriageway which is proposed for the route from wikipedia:

8000 cars per day July Aug. on PPP who will pick up ballance.

The scheme may not be put through the PPP process it is unknown yet.

Agree with Castleisland but again think who will pick up tab for all this.

The taxpayer.

Spot on with 5000 to 6000 car using old road, you will still have traffic jams in Adare because nobody local from Adare to NCW to Abbeyfeale will use toll road it is fair then that you want these people to help pay for the dual carriageway, borrowing €750,000,000 cost over 40 years at 2% fixed will need 30,000 cars per day 365 days a year @ €2.50 each just to pay for road not to mind upkeep and profit for ppp.

The Adare bypass will be part of the M20 PPP but it is no going to be a toll. The scheme is supposedly shadow tolled ie. the government will pay the toll company the money over the 30 year period with no toll plaza on the road itself.

lordofthedung

tech2 wrote: »

Route options were announced nearly 6 months ago now. Once it's not the blue option as I think it's too far from the towns of Abbeyfeale and Newcastle West. The towns have to be bypassed though. I know it will affect passing trade but we cant settle for 3rd world infrastructure anymore. The national primary roads at least should be a high quality routes.

I agree 100% but but if they build what is proposed it will be a complete economic bypass of west limerick, have you being on our secondary roads lately? are they 3rd world infrastructure or what. We would need to start repairing these straight away before claims come in right left & centre.





h

L1011

Mrmoe wrote: »

When NCW and Abbeyfeale are bypassed it will definitely destroy them. They will effectively become commuter/residential towns which might be the most sustainable anyway. It will be very difficult for them to sustain an industry based on tourism as they are surrounded by towns/areas that are more established in the tourism trade. Rathkeale used to be one of the most prosperous towns in Limerick but now it is more or less a ghost town I would say largely due to it being bypassed.

Are you suggesting that Abbeyfeale and NCW currently, and Rathkeale formerly survived on selling petrol, soft drinks and pre packed sandwiches to ~8,000 passing cars a day? Of course they don't/didn't.

Bypasses do not "destroy" *towns*. Some wee villages where the only major business was a pub/restaurant/shop/filling station have seen that go, but actual towns do not.

"losing passing trade" is an insane excuse. I have never stopped and bought something more substantial than lunch in a town I've driven through. And guess what? People still need to eat, and the N21 isn't going to get service areas.

Irish and Proud

lordofthedung wrote: »

I agree 100% but but if they build what is proposed it will be a complete economic bypass of west limerick...

The road is likely to be a Type 2 Dual with roundabouts etc. The road does not have to be an economic bypass of West Limerick - the towns and rural areas of West Limerick must compete for business - they must market themselves in the way that the towns of Kerry have - Killarney has Muckross etc - Dingle has the Dolphin, Tralee has the Rose Festival, Blennerville etc.

The towns of West Limerick have got to identify their potentials and develop them. I visited Lough Gur about 14 years back and to say the least, the facilities were very poor - yet the whole area had a lot of potential. AFAIK, there's also some nice scenery along the N21 in West Limerick as well - OK, Kerry might be more dramatic, but it is also very busy - West Limerick could be a quieter alternative for visitors to stay - would suit the likes of me. I'm no expert, but I'm sure you get my thinking...

Regards!

dubhthach

Surely the towns of west limerick would be more attactive to tourists without constant through traffic of HGV's and people who are more interested in getting to Kerry and frustrated by been stuck in traffic in some snarled up town?

Anyways it's a national Road that connects Tralee to Limerick and onwards to Dublin via Motorway. Surely the national interest is of more importance? But then again this is Ireland where the parish pump rules supreme :rolleyes:

lordofthedung

MYOB wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Abbeyfeale and NCW currently, and Rathkeale formerly survived on selling petrol, soft drinks and pre packed sandwiches to ~8,000 passing cars a day? Of course they don't/didn't.

Bypasses do not "destroy" *towns*. Some wee villages where the only major business was a pub/restaurant/shop/filling station have seen that go, but actual towns do not.

"losing passing trade" is an insane excuse. I have never stopped and bought something more substantial than lunch in a town I've driven through. And guess what? People still need to eat, and the N21 isn't going to get service areas.

I want Adare, NCW, & Abbeyfeale bypassed immediately not in 10 years time but not where they are proposing to bypass them to the south but to the north to take heavy goods traffic from Foynes port and Askeaton away from centre of NCW and the Listowel, Ballybunion traffic away from centre of Abbeyfeale. Also keep the 1250 acres of good land they are proposing to cover with tarmacadam, we may need it to grow food some day. Also if we could get the €50m for these bypasses today it would free up the bottlenecks as well as giving a boost to the local economy.

fresca

Mrmoe wrote: »

I think the road between Limerick and Tralee is not too bad it is just NCW and Abbeyfeale that are the bottlenecks. Otherwise the road itself is fine. A few areas would need to be upgraded alright (between NCW and the top of Barna)...

I travel this road on a regular basis.
I also travel the N22 tralee-cork road on a regular basis.

I have to say that I find both of these roads extremely frustrating from a number of aspects:
- road surface is poor overall (although yes - there are excellent sections - particularly the newer sections)
- road topography is poor ... so many bends, narrow sections, etc that serve to slow the traffic down
- overall traffic speed is slow ... it can often take 2 hrs to travel the 110km to cork and 90 to 110 mins to travel the 100 km to limerick
- overall, these can be frustrating drives...

now, i'm not looking for (and have no interest in) a race track, but it would seem reasonable that tralee-limerick and tralee-cork should both be approx 1 hr journeys.

I understand the concerns that people hold about by-passes.
However, I know a small shop owner in a small town on the Dublin-Galway N6, now bypassed by the M6.
I was surprised to learn that trade has increased since the M6 opened.
His rationale is as follows:
- before the motorway, there were high volumes of traffic coming through the town
- this had the effect of turning local people off going "into town", looking for parking and shopping ... they preferred to head into galway or athlone
- since the motorway opened, locals find it easier to park in their local town and are willing to spend more time there etc

He opposed the (m6) motorway out of the same legitimate fear as expressed by the people of NCW, Abbeyfeale, Templeglantine etc.
He now accepts that the bypass has been good for the town.

This was his experience and I would not assume that it will be the same for all others. Just a perspective from someone directly affected...

lordofthedung

fresca wrote: »

I travel this road on a regular basis.
I also travel the N22 tralee-cork road on a regular basis.

I have to say that I find both of these roads extremely frustrating from a number of aspects:
- road surface is poor overall (although yes - there are excellent sections - particularly the newer sections)
- road topography is poor ... so many bends, narrow sections, etc that serve to slow the traffic down
- overall traffic speed is slow ... it can often take 2 hrs to travel the 110km to cork and 90 to 110 mins to travel the 100 km to limerick
- overall, these can be frustrating drives...

now, i'm not looking for (and have no interest in) a race track, but it would seem reasonable that tralee-limerick and tralee-cork should both be approx 1 hr journeys.

I understand the concerns that people hold about by-passes.
However, I know a small shop owner in a small town on the Dublin-Galway N6, now bypassed by the M6.
I was surprised to learn that trade has increased since the M6 opened.
His rationale is as follows:
- before the motorway, there were high volumes of traffic coming through the town
- this had the effect of turning local people off going "into town", looking for parking and shopping ... they preferred to head into galway or athlone
- since the motorway opened, locals find it easier to park in their local town and are willing to spend more time there etc

He opposed the (m6) motorway out of the same legitimate fear as expressed by the people of NCW, Abbeyfeale, Templeglantine etc.
He now accepts that the bypass has been good for the town.

This was his experience and I would not assume that it will be the same for all others. Just a perspective from someone directly affected...

I want Adare, NCW, & Abbeyfeale bypassed immediately not in 10 years time, but not where they are proposing to bypass them to the south but to the north to take heavy goods traffic from Foynes port and Askeaton as well as Tralee bound traffic away from centre of NCW and the Listowel, Ballybunion traffic as well as Tralee bound traffic away from centre of Abbeyfeale. Also keep the 1250 acres of good land they are proposing to cover with tarmacadam, we may need it to grow food some day. Also if we could get the €50m for these bypasses today it would free up the bottlenecks as well as giving a boost to the local economy.

These bypasses will also improve the road especially up to Barna. I would also like to see the yellow lines in some wide section of the road turned into white lines to enable traffic to overtake.

fresca

Case entry with An Bord Pleanala
http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/HA0028.htm

Decision due 6 July 2010

lordofthedung

fresca wrote: »

Case entry with An Bord Pleanala
http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/HA0028.htm

Decision due 6 July 2010

Thank you fresca but when will it be built, sometime in the next century when we will hopefully be flying rather than driving. I still feel its the wrong place for this particular time when the country is in the worst economic situation since world war one.

bacon&cabbage

Some stuff on CPO and EIS for the Adare bypass, recently put up on midwestroads.ie

including a more detailed map of the route.

http://www.midwestroads.ie/N21%20Adare%20Bypass/Adare%20Publications.htm