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N21 Thread

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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Possibly because they're not stupid enough to think the M20 is a bad idea?


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭ bacon&cabbage


    Reminds me of the people that objected to a bypass of Adare when the now M20 was being built.

    The same people are now campaigning for an Adare bypass :rolleyes:

    There are countless examples of towns/villages that are now thriving after being bypassed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 Irish and Proud


    tech2 wrote: »
    Some protesting about the N21 Adare to Abbeyfeale scheme. The quicker people realise that the N21 is primarily needed to link Tralee with Limerick the better.

    The bypasses are a little offline but there will be a good link road to access the 2+2 sections. I cant find any information re the Abbeyfeale and NCW junctions. For the towns of their size, surely both warrnat LILO's and not roundabouts. Templeglantine locals have been whinging for the last number of years about a proposed bypass now they have stepped up a gear with the route selection stage. Finally I hope they realise eventually it's not a motorway.
    And ..... Abbeyfeale have been shouting aswell

    Link

    ...and I'm sure the very same people are happy to have the M7 and M20 (Adare to Limerick section). What if the people of North Tipperary were to kick up and delay the M7, or the people of Clare and Galway kick up and delay the M17/M18, or the people of North Cork to kick up and delay the M20 - would the objectors from West Limerick be happy then! They can't have it all their own way!

    IMO, Kerry have established themselves as a major tourist destination, and they should have at least one decent road - in fact, I would like to see the road as far a Abbeyfeale as motorway, but a 2+2 will be far better than what was there when I was travelling to Kerry in 1991 - is the Rathkeale bypass the only improvement since then? Also in 1991, we went straight to Kerry (from Meath) without stopping anywhere - apart from stopping in the hard shoulder for a lunch from the picnic box (no benefit for anyone along the way then). Why did we not visit anywhere along the way??? Because the journey took too long - largely on account of the poor road infrastructure. In fact, when my parents go down the country nowadays to Wexford etc, they make a day of it on the way up and visit places - the improved roads make that possible.

    In short, stiffling infrastructure is no answer to stopping economic bleeding of towns or areas en-route. In any case, people will go to areas which are served by better infrastructure. Many towns will initially lose out on passing traffic when there's a new bypass, but there are often many opportunities presented in the aftermath of a bypass opening. Towns and rural localities have got to compete for business - that's simply the way it is.

    Regards!


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭✭ lordofthedung


    1250 acres €750,000,000 can you afford this, going south side of NCW and Abbeyfeale will not help Traffic in these towns, 13000 cars Adare, 7000 Castleisland who get bypass first?. Also bypass of Adare crazy who wants to go to Croom to get to the other side of Adare.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    1250 acres €750,000,000 can you afford this

    It hasnt reached the CPO stage and wont for quite some time. The whole project wont cost that much never mind the land costs.
    going south side of NCW and Abbeyfeale will not help Traffic in these towns

    Eh, Yes it will. The main Limerick-Tralee traffic wont pass through either of these towns and will use the new 2+2 bypass instead. There will be a small amount of local traffic left.
    13000 cars Adare, 7000 Castleisland who get bypass first?.

    Castleisland bypass was in layman terms "ready to go" (tender) so that got the nod ahead of other projects and the price was also key on the cheap at 22 million over two years. The Adare bypass is now part of the M20 PPP which cant go ahead because there is another one-two years of stages to get through before it cant get to tender.
    Also bypass of Adare crazy who wants to go to Croom to get to the other side of Adare.

    The N21 is primarily a link between Tralee and Limerick City. If people want to get home just south of Adare use the current road. The routing is questionable only due to the curving alignment of it and the interchange on the M20. The area where it passes is ok and having it included in the M20 PPP gives it a good chance of going to construction in the coming years.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭ Mrmoe


    I think the road between Limerick and Tralee is not too bad it is just NCW and Abbeyfeale that are the bottlenecks. Otherwise the road itself is fine. A few areas would need to be upgraded alright (between NCW and the top of Barna).

    When NCW and Abbeyfeale are bypassed it will definitely destroy them. They will effectively become commuter/residential towns which might be the most sustainable anyway. It will be very difficult for them to sustain an industry based on tourism as they are surrounded by towns/areas that are more established in the tourism trade. Rathkeale used to be one of the most prosperous towns in Limerick but now it is more or less a ghost town I would say largely due to it being bypassed.

    The route selction for NCW bypass should be more straightforward than for Abbeyfeale. The fact that Abbeyfeale is sandwiched between the Hill and the Feale will make life a bit more difficult. Route selection for Templeglantine is more straighforward due to the alignment of the village. Castleisland is lucky in this way as the current road positioning/alignments make the bypass very easy to plan for.

    It is a pity that there isn't enough foresight to redevelop the old railway track line as a light rail commuter service. It would benefit the Limerick/Kerry region hugely.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,638 Zoney


    The inherent problem with even west County Limerick is the lack of boundary extension for Limerick city. This has held back coherent development of the city, which as a regional economic hub, would benefit the county too. At the same time, the County council, without city suburbs to rely on, would have no option but to up their game in terms of planning for the county and trying to make something of it. NCW would *have* to be their focus. It's not acceptable for example that the county council offices stand just outside the city area as a kind of territory marking, rather than sit in the centre of the county, in the county town of NCW. It would do county councillors good even just to have to work in the county proper.

    Ultimately the central government in Dublin are to blame as they should be organising such matters as part of a national spacial strategy rather than avoiding political trouble or pandering to short-sighted local concerns.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭✭ lordofthedung


    [Q
    UOTE=tech2;64791109]It hasnt reached the CPO stage and wont for quite some time. The whole project wont cost that much never mind the land costs.


    Use 1250 acres of best land in Ireland to carry maybe 8000 cars per day in July Aug not on, total cost €750,000,000 including land will you give us that money? Country borrowing €80,000,000 per day to live not to mind what we are into for NAMA we are broke, will not be build for 20 years what happens in meantime do we live with traffic jams in Adare, NCW Abbeyfeale? Why not put in bypasses now cost maybe €50,000,000 badly needed and if needed in 20 years time do motorway.
    Eh, Yes it will. The main Limerick-Tralee traffic wont pass through either of these towns and will use the new 2+2 bypass instead. There will be a small amount of local traffic left.
    8000 cars per day July Aug. on PPP who will pick up ballance.
    Castleisland bypass was in layman terms "ready to go" (tender) so that got the nod ahead of other projects and the price was also key on the cheap at 22 million over two years. The Adare bypass is now part of the M20 PPP which cant go ahead because there is another one-two years of stages to get through before it cant get to tender.

    Agree with Castleisland but again think who will pick up tab for all this.
    The N21 is primarily a link between Tralee and Limerick City. If people want to get home just south of Adare use the current road. The routing is questionable only due to the curving alignment of it and the interchange on the M20. The area where it passes is ok and having it included in the M20 PPP gives it a good chance of going to construction in the coming years.
    [/QUOTE]

    Spot on with 5000 to 6000 car using old road, you will still have traffic jams in Adare because nobody local from Adare to NCW to Abbeyfeale will use toll road it is fair then that you want these people to help pay for the dual carriageway, borrowing €750,000,000 cost over 40 years at 2% fixed will need 30,000 cars per day 365 days a year @ €2.50 each just to pay for road not to mind upkeep and profit for ppp.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    Mrmoe wrote: »
    The route selction for NCW bypass should be more straightforward than for Abbeyfeale. The fact that Abbeyfeale is sandwiched between the Hill and the Feale will make life a bit more difficult. Route selection for Templeglantine is more straighforward due to the alignment of the village. Castleisland is lucky in this way as the current road positioning/alignments make the bypass very easy to plan for.

    Route options were announced nearly 6 months ago now. Once it's not the blue option as I think it's too far from the towns of Abbeyfeale and Newcastle West. The towns have to be bypassed though. I know it will affect passing trade but we cant settle for 3rd world infrastructure anymore. The national primary roads at least should be a high quality routes.

    routeoptions.jpg

    http://www.midwestroads.ie/N21%20Abbeyfeale%20Adare/Pdf/Brochure.pdf


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    Use 1250 acres of best land in Ireland to carry maybe 8000 cars per day in July Aug not on, total cost €750,000,000 including land will you give us that money? Country borrowing €80,000,000 per day to live not to mind what we are into for NAMA we are broke, will not be build for 20 years what happens in meantime do we live with traffic jams in Adare, NCW Abbeyfeale? Why not put in bypasses now cost maybe €50,000,000 badly needed and if needed in 20 years time do motorway.

    The Adare to Abbeyfeale scheme will not cost €750 million. It's not going to be motorway only reduced dual carriageway which is of a similar width to a wide single carriageway road and cost similar. I'd hazard a guess that the road will cost 200-300 million. Here is a type 2 dual carriageway which is proposed for the route from wikipedia:

    800px-N4_Dromad-Roosky.jpg
    8000 cars per day July Aug. on PPP who will pick up ballance.

    The scheme may not be put through the PPP process it is unknown yet.

    Agree with Castleisland but again think who will pick up tab for all this.

    The taxpayer.

    Spot on with 5000 to 6000 car using old road, you will still have traffic jams in Adare because nobody local from Adare to NCW to Abbeyfeale will use toll road it is fair then that you want these people to help pay for the dual carriageway, borrowing €750,000,000 cost over 40 years at 2% fixed will need 30,000 cars per day 365 days a year @ €2.50 each just to pay for road not to mind upkeep and profit for ppp.

    The Adare bypass will be part of the M20 PPP but it is no going to be a toll. The scheme is supposedly shadow tolled ie. the government will pay the toll company the money over the 30 year period with no toll plaza on the road itself.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭✭ lordofthedung


    tech2 wrote: »
    Route options were announced nearly 6 months ago now. Once it's not the blue option as I think it's too far from the towns of Abbeyfeale and Newcastle West. The towns have to be bypassed though. I know it will affect passing trade but we cant settle for 3rd world infrastructure anymore. The national primary roads at least should be a high quality routes.
    I agree 100% but but if they build what is proposed it will be a complete economic bypass of west limerick, have you being on our secondary roads lately? are they 3rd world infrastructure or what. We would need to start repairing these straight away before claims come in right left & centre.





    h


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Mrmoe wrote: »

    When NCW and Abbeyfeale are bypassed it will definitely destroy them. They will effectively become commuter/residential towns which might be the most sustainable anyway. It will be very difficult for them to sustain an industry based on tourism as they are surrounded by towns/areas that are more established in the tourism trade. Rathkeale used to be one of the most prosperous towns in Limerick but now it is more or less a ghost town I would say largely due to it being bypassed.

    Are you suggesting that Abbeyfeale and NCW currently, and Rathkeale formerly survived on selling petrol, soft drinks and pre packed sandwiches to ~8,000 passing cars a day? Of course they don't/didn't.

    Bypasses do not "destroy" *towns*. Some wee villages where the only major business was a pub/restaurant/shop/filling station have seen that go, but actual towns do not.

    "losing passing trade" is an insane excuse. I have never stopped and bought something more substantial than lunch in a town I've driven through. And guess what? People still need to eat, and the N21 isn't going to get service areas.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 Irish and Proud


    I agree 100% but but if they build what is proposed it will be a complete economic bypass of west limerick...

    The road is likely to be a Type 2 Dual with roundabouts etc. The road does not have to be an economic bypass of West Limerick - the towns and rural areas of West Limerick must compete for business - they must market themselves in the way that the towns of Kerry have - Killarney has Muckross etc - Dingle has the Dolphin, Tralee has the Rose Festival, Blennerville etc.

    The towns of West Limerick have got to identify their potentials and develop them. I visited Lough Gur about 14 years back and to say the least, the facilities were very poor - yet the whole area had a lot of potential. AFAIK, there's also some nice scenery along the N21 in West Limerick as well - OK, Kerry might be more dramatic, but it is also very busy - West Limerick could be a quieter alternative for visitors to stay - would suit the likes of me. I'm no expert, but I'm sure you get my thinking...

    Regards!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    Surely the towns of west limerick would be more attactive to tourists without constant through traffic of HGV's and people who are more interested in getting to Kerry and frustrated by been stuck in traffic in some snarled up town?

    Anyways it's a national Road that connects Tralee to Limerick and onwards to Dublin via Motorway. Surely the national interest is of more importance? But then again this is Ireland where the parish pump rules supreme :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭✭ lordofthedung


    MYOB wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that Abbeyfeale and NCW currently, and Rathkeale formerly survived on selling petrol, soft drinks and pre packed sandwiches to ~8,000 passing cars a day? Of course they don't/didn't.

    Bypasses do not "destroy" *towns*. Some wee villages where the only major business was a pub/restaurant/shop/filling station have seen that go, but actual towns do not.

    "losing passing trade" is an insane excuse. I have never stopped and bought something more substantial than lunch in a town I've driven through. And guess what? People still need to eat, and the N21 isn't going to get service areas.

    I want Adare, NCW, & Abbeyfeale bypassed immediately not in 10 years time but not where they are proposing to bypass them to the south but to the north to take heavy goods traffic from Foynes port and Askeaton away from centre of NCW and the Listowel, Ballybunion traffic away from centre of Abbeyfeale. Also keep the 1250 acres of good land they are proposing to cover with tarmacadam, we may need it to grow food some day. Also if we could get the €50m for these bypasses today it would free up the bottlenecks as well as giving a boost to the local economy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ fresca


    Mrmoe wrote: »
    I think the road between Limerick and Tralee is not too bad it is just NCW and Abbeyfeale that are the bottlenecks. Otherwise the road itself is fine. A few areas would need to be upgraded alright (between NCW and the top of Barna)...

    I travel this road on a regular basis.
    I also travel the N22 tralee-cork road on a regular basis.

    I have to say that I find both of these roads extremely frustrating from a number of aspects:
    - road surface is poor overall (although yes - there are excellent sections - particularly the newer sections)
    - road topography is poor ... so many bends, narrow sections, etc that serve to slow the traffic down
    - overall traffic speed is slow ... it can often take 2 hrs to travel the 110km to cork and 90 to 110 mins to travel the 100 km to limerick
    - overall, these can be frustrating drives...

    now, i'm not looking for (and have no interest in) a race track, but it would seem reasonable that tralee-limerick and tralee-cork should both be approx 1 hr journeys.

    I understand the concerns that people hold about by-passes.
    However, I know a small shop owner in a small town on the Dublin-Galway N6, now bypassed by the M6.
    I was surprised to learn that trade has increased since the M6 opened.
    His rationale is as follows:
    - before the motorway, there were high volumes of traffic coming through the town
    - this had the effect of turning local people off going "into town", looking for parking and shopping ... they preferred to head into galway or athlone
    - since the motorway opened, locals find it easier to park in their local town and are willing to spend more time there etc

    He opposed the (m6) motorway out of the same legitimate fear as expressed by the people of NCW, Abbeyfeale, Templeglantine etc.
    He now accepts that the bypass has been good for the town.

    This was his experience and I would not assume that it will be the same for all others. Just a perspective from someone directly affected...


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭✭ lordofthedung


    fresca wrote: »
    I travel this road on a regular basis.
    I also travel the N22 tralee-cork road on a regular basis.

    I have to say that I find both of these roads extremely frustrating from a number of aspects:
    - road surface is poor overall (although yes - there are excellent sections - particularly the newer sections)
    - road topography is poor ... so many bends, narrow sections, etc that serve to slow the traffic down
    - overall traffic speed is slow ... it can often take 2 hrs to travel the 110km to cork and 90 to 110 mins to travel the 100 km to limerick
    - overall, these can be frustrating drives...

    now, i'm not looking for (and have no interest in) a race track, but it would seem reasonable that tralee-limerick and tralee-cork should both be approx 1 hr journeys.

    I understand the concerns that people hold about by-passes.
    However, I know a small shop owner in a small town on the Dublin-Galway N6, now bypassed by the M6.
    I was surprised to learn that trade has increased since the M6 opened.
    His rationale is as follows:
    - before the motorway, there were high volumes of traffic coming through the town
    - this had the effect of turning local people off going "into town", looking for parking and shopping ... they preferred to head into galway or athlone
    - since the motorway opened, locals find it easier to park in their local town and are willing to spend more time there etc

    He opposed the (m6) motorway out of the same legitimate fear as expressed by the people of NCW, Abbeyfeale, Templeglantine etc.
    He now accepts that the bypass has been good for the town.

    This was his experience and I would not assume that it will be the same for all others. Just a perspective from someone directly affected...


    I want Adare, NCW, & Abbeyfeale bypassed immediately not in 10 years time, but not where they are proposing to bypass them to the south but to the north to take heavy goods traffic from Foynes port and Askeaton as well as Tralee bound traffic away from centre of NCW and the Listowel, Ballybunion traffic as well as Tralee bound traffic away from centre of Abbeyfeale. Also keep the 1250 acres of good land they are proposing to cover with tarmacadam, we may need it to grow food some day. Also if we could get the €50m for these bypasses today it would free up the bottlenecks as well as giving a boost to the local economy.

    These bypasses will also improve the road especially up to Barna. I would also like to see the yellow lines in some wide section of the road turned into white lines to enable traffic to overtake.


  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ fresca


    Case entry with An Bord Pleanala
    http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/HA0028.htm

    Decision due 6 July 2010


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭✭ lordofthedung


    fresca wrote: »
    Case entry with An Bord Pleanala
    http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/HA0028.htm

    Decision due 6 July 2010

    Thank you fresca but when will it be built, sometime in the next century when we will hopefully be flying rather than driving. I still feel its the wrong place for this particular time when the country is in the worst economic situation since world war one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭ bacon&cabbage


    Some stuff on CPO and EIS for the Adare bypass, recently put up on midwestroads.ie

    including a more detailed map of the route.

    http://www.midwestroads.ie/N21%20Adare%20Bypass/Adare%20Publications.htm


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  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ fresca


    Highlights are:-
    - 8,500 m in length
    - type-2 dual carriageway
    - 100 kmph speed limit
    - 17 structures
    - 18/24 month project
    - roundabout on N21 (god knows why!!!)
    - grade seperation on M20


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭ nordydan


    fresca wrote: »
    Highlights are:-
    - 8,500 m in length
    - type-2 dual carriageway
    - 100 kmph speed limit
    - 17 structures
    - 18/24 month project
    - roundabout on N21 (god knows why!!!)
    - grade seperation on M20


    At the very west of the scheme where the roads goes back north for a section, I believe they may tie in the N21 Adara-Abbeyfeale scheme into this dogleg. Under such a scenario, the route takes seems less meandering


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 mysterious


    Why Is'nt it type 1 dual? It has traffic higher than all the current inter urbans.:rolleyes:

    What the **** is up with the NRA? Can we have the names of the actual people in the design office. I'm fed up with this carry on at this stage. I'm dead serious. The NRA needs an overhaul.


  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ fresca


    nordydan wrote: »
    At the very west of the scheme where the roads goes back north for a section, I believe they may tie in the N21 Adara-Abbeyfeale scheme into this dogleg. Under such a scenario, the route takes seems less meandering

    That's fine. but in the meantime, while we're waiting for the abbeyfeale-adare upgrade, we'll have a roundabout west of adare on the current n21. doesn't this seem crazy?

    then again, given that the M20 needs to be built before the adare bypass (or maybe all 1 project (with priority to m20)) - it all seems far off in the future...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,236 Sponge Bob


    mysterious wrote: »
    Why Is'nt it type 1 dual? It has traffic higher than all the current inter urbans.:rolleyes:

    No it does not, and will not. It does not compare to the M7 or the M4 or the M1 ( all near Dublin) does it??

    To precisely which section of which interurban road are you seeking to compare the N21 around Adare in terms of their current and some putative traffic volumes ???


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭ bacon&cabbage


    fresca wrote: »
    Highlights are:-
    - 8,500 m in length
    - type-2 dual carriageway
    - 100 kmph speed limit
    - 17 structures
    - 18/24 month project
    - roundabout on N21 (god knows why!!!)
    - grade seperation on M20

    - no local access from R519
    - in-effect a roundabout at both ends

    I think to be fair, type-2 dual carriageway is sufficient.
    I'm beginning to wonder though, will it actually be quicker to go through Adare village itself ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,751 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    I doubt it, what with 120kmh on the M20 section and 100kmh on the N21 section. Versus 80kmh on the old route and 50kmh through Adare itself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 mysterious


    - no local access from R519
    - in-effect a roundabout at both ends

    I think to be fair, type-2 dual carriageway is sufficient.
    I'm beginning to wonder though, will it actually be quicker to go through Adare village itself ?

    Yes.

    And Type 1 is the best solution for a long term cause. It has DC levels traffic and in opening it will rise to about 25000 at least. So many cars avoid Adare at peak times. The bypass wont actually do much good considering its really windy and having a low speed limit like the existing national primary route.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 mysterious


    I doubt it, what with 120kmh on the M20 section and 100kmh on the N21 section. Versus 80kmh on the old route and 50kmh through Adare itself.


    People don't stick to the 80kmh speed limit on existing national primary routes.:rolleyes:

    Adare road is more direct and shorter. When its bypassed it won't be bottlenecked. You have two roundabouts on the bypass so its not exactly going to be quick.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    No it does not, and will not. It does not compare to the M7 or the M4 or the M1 ( all near Dublin) does it??

    To precisely which section of which interurban road are you seeking to compare the N21 around Adare in terms of their current and some putative traffic volumes ???

    The M8 in most parts only gathers 17,000 AADT. The AADT passing through Adare is in the region of 24K, Type 2 dual carriageway has a capacity of 20K. The M9 has about 16K towards Waterford.
    fresca wrote:
    roundabout on N21 (god knows why!!!)

    The NRA always go for the cheap option on 2+2's look at the Castleisland bypass 3 roundabouts. Compact grade seperaration will be low on these type of projects although there is one on the Dromod to Rooskey scheme on the N4.


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