New Boards.ie Terms of Use and Privacy Policy - your feedback welcome

Darragh

Rev. BlueJeans wrote: »

Anyway, I think the phraseology of this document has caused a lot of the problem. Without knowing which legal person/entity put it together, it seems that they had little idea of the nuances of these communities-which I admit is no small thing to get your head around anyway.

The point being. The initial thrust of all this was presumably to cover boards' backside. Can you guys now look at it from a users pov wrt allowing the removal of what one might deem "creative works", like pictures, programming code, poems, anything that goes outside the remit of conversational discussion? There are enough mods here to do this on request, which surely won't be that often if things run as they have, and it won't mean granting users delete permissions after the 48 hours either.

I'm with you on that. As per the discussions on the Photography Forum, I'll be redrafting the TOU sections exactly to address "creative works" and to ensure that we get as much permission to use something as possible without anyone losing the rights to their work, if you get me.

Without negating the document (because lawyers fear any departure from legalese, I've found), can you, Darragh, in the plain language you have expressed the intent of the site in this thread and others, not insert a couple of lines enshrining the fact that users own their own works, that boards aren't going to make a buck off the contributions, (I know you've suggested amendments in this line and some others already), that users can be moved to a dormant usergroup on request, signifying their withdrawal from the site without breaking threads, in short that the ethos of the site hasn't changed.

Unfortunately, the initial draft-which I assume is now in force, and will be applied retrospectively, and the way it was/is worded has negated in many people's eyes, a lot of the things that they would have previously taken for granted about b.ie. I'm sure this is not intentional, but neither is it clear that many things remain the same, because this ToU policy has created doubt in many minds that this is the case.

Yes, I will definitely be doing this too

Darragh

col123 wrote: »

i was always under the impression that you could delete/edit any post you made at any time you wished...lol... when does the edit icon disappear at the foot of posts ?

As far as I know, col123, it's 48 hours after you press publish. I'll get Ross or Conor to clarify/confirm that one for me though.

i also presumed there would be an option to get a mod to delete all your posts if you wished this action taken when closing your account, replacing each post with some standard blurb stating your gone and you took all your words with you.

I'm afraid that has never been in place. Moderators may delete posts at their discretion but keeping the entire conversation in place has always been a factor here. I'll point you to this post in the Photography Forum which I thought outlined the position quite well.

imho this seems to be the correct ethical position that boards should take, the 'continuity of the conversation' should take a lesser preference over the wishes of the member who contributed his/her content even if they are only words.

imo you should not have the ability to delete your own content if it was copied into another post, eg. if you were quoted, those words should stay, or if other formats of content that you posted like photos ended up in someone elses posts as a copy they should stay also.

im not sure if this would create some sort of legal minefield for boards, i would of thought the opposite to be honest. it emphasizes that the content creator is solely and indefinitely responsible for the legal implications of the content published.

didnt facebook or mypage try to 'own' all content once by changing the TOS and had to do a quick u-turn after a community backlash ?

it wont affect me either way but i believe online community growth can stagnate by the wrong ethos.

Re the latter, bolded part (my emphasis), I completely agree with you. To give you some background on these, they have been discussed each step of the way with DeVore, with the Community Manager, with the Admins and the Moderators as well as various communities (like the Photographers) who have made me aware of issues they have with them. We are trying to get this right.

I'll PM Dav and DeVore and ask them to get back to you regarding the points you've made, but thanks for your suggestions - they're all coming into the conversation - and I'll update you as we go.

Darragh

Darragh

aidan_walsh wrote: »

On the one hand, it is a legal document and needs to be written in a legal manner. On the other, maybe we could look at taking a leaf from the Creative Commons people and posting a plain English interpretation as well?

Yes indeed - hoping to do something similar to this - http://truthbank.ie/truths/Legal/?CAKEPHP=d3443294e1bde4379831f22b6a42ad06. What do you reckon?

Happy to look at any and all suggestions

Darragh

theasylumkey wrote: »

Thanks for that but my line of thinking is following if Passwords are stolen through Phishing of Boards.ie also, how can i be held accountable for password theft if i am not aware of it simply by logging into Boards.ie?

I undersatnd fully that each point in the terms of use could equally be scrutinised to the very end as i am doing here but it is something i feel that needs to be clarified for users if they are to be held responsible for any activity under there username which could be hijacked by less scrupulous folks than our selves that have the IT knowledge how to do such things.

I do think that the wording of that point should be expanded to encompass Phishing etc. & what responsibility falls with who i.e. User, Boards.ie, Hackers, Phishers.

Okay, I'll bring that up with the techie guys and see what I can do to help you with this one, thank you

Darragh

surime wrote: »

I cant find option to edit my avatar.:/

Hi Surime, I'll get someone to help you with this but you might want to post on the Helpdesk for a quicker reply

Darragh

iMADEtheBBC

Thank you Darragh. I'll review and if I have any concerns I'll revert.


I have a question which I hope you can answer : have the TOU and Privacy Policy been reviewed by a legal professional with experience in this area ? I'm not trolling here, I appreciate the difficulty in drawing up these documents. I've seen first hand in my day job how this can go badly wrong very quickly.


thanks again,

Darragh

iMADEtheBBC wrote: »

Wow. Some scary stuff in there.

# post Material that contains violence, or offensive subject matter

Define 'offensive'.

Well, while that is subjective, I'm going to go with "Racist, Illegal, Defamatory, Sexually explicit and/or promotes Violence" - as per the TOU

You agree not to

• post any abusive, harmful, vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, indecent, profane, inappropriate, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable Material, except where the content is appropriate to the content of the forum and you have been granted specific permission to do so and subject to our guidelines on said content
• post Material that promotes violence, or offensive subject matter or contains a link to an adult website except where the content is appropriate to the content of the forum and you have been granted specific permission to do so and subject to our guidelines on said content

I think that covers a lot of it.

Waiving moral rights ? I don't think so ! Are you sure this is legal ? It's certainly not something I'd be comfortable with.

Granting license ? You might want to drop into the songwriters thread and see what they think about that.

These have been drawn up with the help of a certified legal expert, yes, so they are legal - but we should explain why, and I'll be back to do so.

Care to elaborate on why this is necessary ? A pre-emptive strike? Risk mitigation ? Or is there a commercial interest here ?

This has been covered extensively in this thread already. It's to protect Boards.ie Ltd, to protect the members and to ensure we're complying with the law. There's no underhand activity going on here - I mean, look at how much we've answered in this thread already, trying to get the best possible terms to suit everyone.

Darragh

iMADEtheBBC wrote: »

Thank you Darragh. I'll review and if I have any concerns I'll revert.


I have a question which I hope you can answer : have the TOU and Privacy Policy been reviewed by a legal professional with experience in this area ? I'm not trolling here, I appreciate the difficulty in drawing up these documents. I've seen first hand in my day job how this can go badly wrong very quickly.


thanks again,

yes, indeed they have. Now, I haven't asked him if I can say publically who it is - I will do - but he's very well respected as a leader in this field. I'll be emailing him later with all of this (though he already has a link to this thread) and ask if I can say who he is. Trust me, we're covering all the bases we can here. We're taking this very seriously!

HereSince2003

Darragh wrote: »

yes, indeed they have. Now, I haven't asked him if I can say publically who it is - I will do - but he's very well respected as a leader in this field. I'll be emailing him later with all of this (though he already has a link to this thread) and ask if I can say who he is. Trust me, we're covering all the bases we can here. We're taking this very seriously!

Hi Darragh,

Thank you for your many replies in this thread. It makes an interesting read.
Before I make my point please let me make it clear I as HereSince2003 agree with the new T&U's and fully understand why Boards.ie needs them for the future and as it would seem the past. I don't however under my old account as I want to retain all rights to my posts and never agreed to any T&U's as none existed bar the standard vBulletin ones under my old account.

On that note and reference your post here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055771918&page=16 it now seems that now when a user joins boards.ie they initially have to agree to the sign up message which in itself is an agreement? Is that not the case? It could be important to find out when that coame into place in my opinion as it would help with the new T&U's? Because when signing up under that message users agreed not to have their posts deleted or account deleted?

But then is it not so that if that sign up message never existed and there never were any T&U's about deleting accounts or posts then any old users can, in theory, really have them removed?

Bit of a double edged sword in some ways.

Darragh

HereSince2003 wrote: »

Hi Darragh,

Thank you for your many replies in this thread. It makes an interesting read.

You're welcome

Before I make my point please let me make it clear I as HereSince2003 agree with the new T&U's and fully understand why Boards.ie needs them for the future and as it would seem the past. I don't however under my old account as I want to retain all rights to my posts and never agreed to any T&U's as none existed bar the standard vBulletin ones under my old account.

Okay, thanks - except that you're still the same person, if you get me. There really is no point in having a seperate account (I'm not at all sure why people do, to be honest) but you, as a member of Boards.ie, under whatever account, are still bound by the same TOU as everyone else, regardless of when you joined.

On that note and reference your post here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055771918&page=16 it now seems that now when a user joins boards.ie they initially have to agree to the sign up message which in itself is an agreement?

Yes indeed, that's the case, and has been for ages and ages.

It could be important to find out when that coame into place in my opinion as it would help with the new T&U's? Because when signing up under that message users agreed not to have their posts deleted or account deleted?

Yep, will find that out for you!

But then is it not so that if that sign up message never existed and there never were any T&U's about deleting accounts or posts then any old users can, in theory, really have them removed?

Oh that sign up message DID exist and people did agree to that signing up - I'll just have to find out from when. Cheers for that - very useful altogether

Bit of a double edged sword in some ways.

That's my job for the most part

col123

...it wont affect me either way but i believe online community growth can stagnate by the wrong ethos.

Darragh wrote: »

Re the latter, bolded part (my emphasis), I completely agree with you. To give you some background on these, they have been discussed each step of the way with DeVore, with the Community Manager, with the Admins and the Moderators as well as various communities (like the Photographers) who have made me aware of issues they have with them. We are trying to get this right.

I'll PM Dav and DeVore and ask them to get back to you regarding the points you've made, but thanks for your suggestions - they're all coming into the conversation - and I'll update you as we go.

Darragh

cheers Darragh, thankless task no doubt ...as i said no great shakes to me.

googles 'do no evil' brand (a debate in its own right ...lol) had a far greater effect on market share than page rankings imo.

...re:the photography debate

Darragh wrote: »

I'll start with this one...

Over in the photography forum I've been heavily involved with a discussion about rights and so on with the photographers there. Following a suggested amendment to the terms, it now looks like I'll have a seperate section entirely for creative works, clarifying exactly what it is Boards.ie Ltd needs someone to grant us for us to continue the service and for our members to keep the rights to their work.....

Darragh

distinguishing 'words' from 'photographs' as 'creative works' seems to me a debate of artistic taste. imo the photographers are emotionally attached to their creations so they are quickest to react emotionally, but i see it as the exact same debate.

id make the poster responsible for the legal implications of what they post

relinquish boards liability of the possibility that that content may be copied once its online

allow users to take down what ever they have published (even words) at any time

allow boards to contact members when they want to use their content for whatever reason

have an option of 'opt in' at sign up for such usage of content

default everyone to 'opt in' now
( 'opt out' default would be nicer, but im practical enough to realize there is a reason for the rewrite)

i suspect some photographers would like to 'opt in' to further their self expression.

i also suspect very few would actually delete all their posts when leaving boards, i imagine most 'leave' by simply not logging in anymore.

onq

The thread you pointed to:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63785222&postcount=102

Showed this proposed text:

7.1 Submissions to Boards.ie

You do not have to submit anything to us, but if you do you acknowledge and agree that any questions, comments, suggestions, ideas, feedback, or any other submissions to us which may improve our products, services, or offerings shall become our sole property unless otherwise agreed by us.
By making a submission to us, you grant a nonexclusive, irrevocable, worldwide, perpetual, unlimited, assignable, sublicenseable, fully paid up and royalty free right to us to copy, prepare derivative works from, improve, distribute, publish, remove, retain, add, and use and commercialise, in any way now known or in the future discovered, anything that you submit to us, without any further consent, notice and/or compensation to you or to any third parties.

If you do not want to grant us the rights set out above, please do not make submissions to us.

The previous text appeared to draw a disitinction between submissions ot Boards about Boards.ie and submissions to Boards per se.

I have no problem with the above text in relation to advices freely given to Boards about Boards.ie, particularly this current thread.

I have serious problems with it in relation to any utterances I make to Boards in the normal course of events.

Let me make this crystal clear:

i) in posts made to Boards.ie which are not about Boards.ie you do NOT have a nonexclusive, irrevocable, worldwide, perpetual, unlimited, assignable, sublicenseable, fully paid up and royalty free right to copy, prepare derivative works from, improve, distribute, publish, remove, retain, add, and use and commercialise, in any way now known or in the future discovered, anything that I have apready submitted to Boards.ie.

ii) in posts made to Boards.ie which are about Boards.ie you DO have a nonexclusive, irrevocable, worldwide, perpetual, unlimited, assignable, sublicenseable, fully paid up and royalty free right to copy, prepare derivative works from, improve, distribute, publish, remove, retain, add, and use and commercialise, in any way now known or in the future discovered, anything that I have apready submitted to Boards.ie.

Should you seek to assert such a right over every post made by every poster I suspect that the more informed posters and/or those of us who might offer professional advice on problems posted to Boards will simply stop posting and you'll end up being reduced to twittering meaningless suppositions at each other.

I believe that the same will tend to apply posters of creative works including images and texts.

You have a limited right to allow my posts to persist until I choose to remove them, if ever, but nothing else and no rights devolve to others by this original publication, except those arising under Irish law as is from fair use and comment in the public interest.

This limited right will allow follow up posters to quote within their posts what has already been posted to better reply to it and refer to it in other posts on Boards.ie - this IS a discussion forum and unreasonably shackling discussion on Boards.ie would not be my intent.

Quoting or part quoting posts from Boards.ie and publishing it elsewhere, particularly those which contain discussions of technical issues in relation to buildings is NOT allowed.

Thread references from Boards.ie website and a descriptive reference may be published elsewhere.

This is primarily because in my experience laypersons end up suffering from the "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing syndrome" - in other words they may not understand the principles of building physics involved in a reply [for example] and may unintentionally misrepresent what has been posted.

Quoting text wholesale for compilation and publication for profit is not allowed under any circumstances as copyright remains with the original writer at all times.

For the record and without in any way undermining my asserted rights in this post or elsewhere I will not normally seek to remove or amend posts except by way of clarification, correction or where requested to do so by the mods if a post might in some way contravent the FAQ.

If you follow guidelines like this Darragh, you will be well served I believe, but I am open to suggestions to the contrary.

Best of luck dealing with this mountain of work.

ONQ.

HereSince2003

Thank you again for the replies Darragh. I hope my reply makes sense in the way I have used the Quote function to write it.

Darragh wrote: »

You're welcome

Okay, thanks - except that you're still the same person, if you get me. There really is no point in having a seperate account (I'm not at all sure why people do, to be honest) but you, as a member of Boards.ie, under whatever account, are still bound by the same TOU as everyone else, regardless of when you joined.

This I think is interesting. Some in this thread have stated they do not agree with the new T&U's? How will that be handled? Will they be removed from the site? Can you say that they logged in and therefore they agreed? If they choose to start again under a new account with a new ISP or "internet" ID then you have no sway with the argument about a person being a person. Does that part make sense? How will it be handled?

Yes indeed, that's the case, and has been for ages and ages.
Yep, will find that out for you

Oh that sign up message DID exist and people did agree to that signing up - I'll just have to find out from when. Cheers for that - very useful altogether

To the best of my knowledge they only came into play after this http://www.johnbreslin.com/blog/2008/06/09/youre-banned-but-we-cant-tell-anyone-about-it/

That was when the privacy statement first appeared and I would take a shot in the dark and say that post and account deletion terms followed suit. I have a work colleague that I helped sign up to boards around the start of 2008 and I recall it was a lot longer that what I remembered. If it helps I can ask them if they still have the original sign up email. I make no promises.


That's my job for the most part

And a good job you are doing Keep up the good work.

HereSince2003

Getting this email was painful

From Feb 2008

"Dear xxxxxx,

Thanks for registering at boards.ie! We are glad you have chosen to be a part of our community and we hope you enjoy your stay.

Before you post in the forums, do read the forum stickies to familiarise yourself with each forum's etiquette. This can be confusing at first as forums have different rules, taking a few extra moments will make your time on boards more enjoyable.

There is a FAQ forum here which may help with some of your questions http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=98.

There is a full list of forums available here http://boards.ie/vbulletin/index.php and also available in the list on the top of your screen when you are logged in, just hover over the menu list at the top of the screen.

Please do not join these forums just to promote yourself, your website, your company or your fabulous products and services, this will simply annoy and alienate the users and will most likely result in your posts being removed and possibly your user account.

If you have signed up to use adverts.ie please note that the site is currently not for traders, users who sell regularly to make a profit nor is it for companies to sell products or services. We will make a commercial section available soon.

An important rule that is regularly misunderstood on adverts is the "No Off thread dealing Rule". We ask that all dealing be kept on tread until a deal is done or exchanging contact details to view an item. The reason for this rule is to avoid scammers, these people are easy to spot by the moderators and regular users but when they or you deal off thread, we have no way of making a call on it. Please keep all dealings in open view and report any off thread contact immediately to a moderator, if not to protect you then to protect the next user.



All the best,
boards.ie "

No mention of not deleting posts or accounts or T&U's. Hope that helps.

Mental Mickey

Please ban DoniMack and his fellow trolls. They are just being ridiculous.

Fajitas!

Er...

As this got bumped, any update after going back to the legal team?

Darragh

Fajitas! wrote: »

Er...

As this got bumped, any update after going back to the legal team?

Hey, yes, you can expect an announcement of actions and amendments (and subsequent decisions) by the weekend. Sorry about the delay.

Fajitas!

Thanks!

BuffyBot

Just a reminder. This is a thread for users to discuss issues with the upcoming changes to the Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.

For general help about the site or complaints about moderation, please start a new thread in the Help Desk.

Thanks!

Darragh

Hi folks,

We have now published the revisions to the TOU based on your feedback.

I have started a new thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64594110

Thanks so much for your input.

Darragh