Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

bk

rainbowdash what rubbish. The same money and thus peripheral benefits could have been spent on a more useful project like the Atlantic Road Corridor, luas BXD etc.

The Idyll Race

bk wrote: »

rainbowdash what rubbish. The same money and thus peripheral benefits could have been spent on a more useful project like the Atlantic Road Corridor, luas BXD etc.

I read that as let's give away more taxpayers money to landowners on road projects. Luas BXD is being built anyway. Road projects are far hungrier for land than rail and as proven, far more open to lines on maps being redrawn for few/no benefit except to those who get the compo gravy.

dowlingm

Idyll Race - would you prefer it if one of: triple tracking the Northern line, electrification of the Maynooth line, building M3-Navan etc. were used instead? I guarantee you there would have been a lot more than 95 people/day net extra rail passengers from any of those projects. But then it wouldn't have been a parity of esteem project for "the West", placed ahead of Cork-Midleton which had been the subject of specific spatial planning efforts for years.

rainbowdash

bk wrote: »

rainbowdash what rubbish. The same money and thus peripheral benefits could have been spent on a more useful project like the Atlantic Road Corridor, luas BXD etc.

It could have been spent on a lot of things, but it wasn't and thats not my fault, and the true cost of these projects is never the budgeted capital cost which is the point I am making.

Was Ennis - Athenry a waste of money? Probably, but not €106m.

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

is that you Barry?

Any chance of a breakdown into materials sourced at home, imported material costs, labour costs, payments to farmers, etc. of your €106m cost, rather than childish comments.

dowlingm

rainbowdash - the steel for the rails and any refits to bridges etc. would not have been sourced in Ireland. The problem with modern capital infrastructure is that it is NOT labour intensive and thus there's not so much PAYE etc accruing. In any case, the point being made is that the 106m was not spent in isolation - the interest alone on it is probably running at over 5m p.a. depending on how financed so there are opportunity costs either by spending it at all or by not spending it on something more selfsustaining.

EDIT: payments to farmers should have been minimal since the track was in IE ownership - maybe some land take for the Ardrahan/Craughwell white elephants and maybe an accommodation crossing closure or two.

The Idyll Race

dowlingm wrote: »

Idyll Race - would you prefer it if one of: triple tracking the Northern line, electrification of the Maynooth line, building M3-Navan etc. were used instead? I guarantee you there would have been a lot more than 95 people/day net extra rail passengers from any of those projects. But then it wouldn't have been a parity of esteem project for "the West", placed ahead of Cork-Midleton which had the subject of specific spatial planning efforts for years.

As is traditional with rail projects, all of the above would have been hammered and poked at with sharp sticks in the newspapers and online. History teaches us that one of the "experts" cited by journalists during the construction of Luas was a pro-sprawl campaigner funded by the US motor industry, and his word was gospel as far as at least one prominent journo was concerned, indeed the same journo had worked for CRH plc.

I'm not a gronker or a basher or a gricer or even a "Tarquin" anxious for new builds at all costs, I believe that the wrong section of the line was rebuilt, as a result of political pressure and that the locals didn't bother to actually use the line once it was built. Therefore use it or lose it. But what I do object to is the blithe acceptance of cost overruns on road builds during the C***** T****, which resulted in huge compo deals to landowners. That is the waste that should be screamed about. Limerick - Galway is a failure of politics and the CIE monolith that doesn't know it's ass from its elbow. Athenry - Tuam would have relieved the pressure to "do something" and by all accounts would have been properly supported and be easier to build to a higher standard, because it was heavy rail in the first place. The light rail sections between Ennis and Athenry, Tuam and Claremorris and in particular Claremorris to Coolooney should all have been long fingered entirely on the basis that to rebuild them properly with acceptable line speeds was a costly exercise, and that cost should have been made clear.

corktina

rainbowdash wrote: »

Any chance of a breakdown into materials sourced at home, imported material costs, labour costs, payments to farmers, etc. of your €106m cost, rather than childish comments.

whichever way you look at it its €106 millions (IEs figures) that had to be financed and is part of our national debt that we'll be paying for many years to come. We could and should have spent that money much more wisely. It's not even really IEs fault, the Politicians told them to open it , they were just rather half-hearted about it

The Idyll Race

corktina wrote: »

whichever way you look at it its €106 millions (IEs figures) that had to be financed and is part of our national debt that we'll be paying for many years to come. We could and should have spent that money much more wisely. It's not even really IEs fault, the Politicians told them to open it , they were just rather half-hearted about it

And yet you seem wholly unconcerned about gold plated road building. Why?

dowlingm

The Idyll Race wrote: »

And yet you seem wholly unconcerned about gold plated road building. Why?

Kindly don't put words in other people's mouths.

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

whichever way you look at it its €106 millions (IEs figures) that had to be financed and is part of our national debt that we'll be paying for many years to come. We could and should have spent that money much more wisely. It's not even really IEs fault, the Politicians told them to open it , they were just rather half-hearted about it

106m is nothing, to put it in perspective it's the bill for social welfare for about for 2 days!!

The Idyll Race

dowlingm wrote: »

Kindly don't put words in other people's mouths.

I am asking a question. Is this thread moderated by its regulars then?

Sponge Bob

The answer to your question is that the roads are much better value than railways in most of the country. Simples really. The rail network will probably lose Limerick and Galway and Tralee and Sligo and even Athlone in the next 5 years unless those IE idiots get real about freight....something they show no signs of doing. I miss Fasttrack which out couriered every courier for my money.

dowlingm

The Idyll Race wrote: »

I am asking a question.

You made a statement about someone else's motivations and then asked them why they held the view you decided they hold.

Sligo Quay

rainbowdash wrote: »

Was Ennis - Athenry a waste of money? Probably, but not €106m.

Most definitely was, parish pump politics has got to stop, but I can't say this too loud when Im in the North West, Id get lynched by a mob, letting the side down and selling out to that Dublin crowd, its a narrow view taken by some, but the interests of the country has to take priority over mad ideas by people who play with too many train sets in their attics and don't live in the real economic world, the Sligo / Dublin line is just about holding its own, maybe it would do better if there was railfreight and make its existence more secure, but on the WRC at this moment in time this is not going to happen.

The Idyll Race

dowlingm wrote: »

You made a statement about someone else's motivations and then asked them why they held the view you decided they hold.

No, I asked the question, and I am now asking you the same question, why are you unconcerned about the waste of money on motorway and road schemes that cost far in excess of Ennis - Athenry, in particular the M3, which in its tolled sections doesn't meet the critieria for dual carriageway traffic and is a drain on the taxpayer?

Is it the case that Roads are good in all cases, even when their routing gets altered for political reasons and where most of the costs gets swallowed by landowners getting development value?

Road construction has been wide open for graft and railways simply don't provide the return on investment that landowners want.

corktina

its about value for money. If The State spends €106 milion on anthing, the benefits can be assesed in many terms. In the case of the M3 you could probably justify that spend solely on the grounds of improved road safety.
A Rail line that was OBVIOUSLY from day one doomed to failure and is now shown to be carrying I think 16% of the forecast traffic is not and never will be VFM on any grounds.

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

its about value for money. If The State spends €106 milion on anthing, the benefits can be assesed in many terms. In the case of the M3 you could probably justify that spend solely on the grounds of improved road safety.
A Rail line that was OBVIOUSLY from day one doomed to failure and is now shown to be carrying I think 16% of the forecast traffic is not and never will be VFM on any grounds.

So how about the evoting machines and the money wasted on them, does that concern you as much?

Or maybe sending patients files from limerick to Dublin in a taxi behind the ambulance because it's not the nurses job to carry them?

All the tribunals and the millions spent along the way to line lawyers pockets. I could go on indefinitely but the €106m, much of which was recouped in taxes and local business trade anyway, is a drop in the ocean of the problems facing the country.



What's obvious to me is not that the line was doomed to failure but that the fares are too high, the journey time too long, and the train seems to be in direct competition with buses operated by the same company.

bk

Yes all those other wastes of money annoy me too.

But just because money has been wasted elsewhere, doesn't then justify wasting money on WRC.

What a weird and twisted logic.

All projects should be vetted for their economic and social benefits and the projects with the greatest benefits carried out.

The WRC wouldn't even enter that list. Frankly it has almost no social or economic benefit. It is simply a money pit and should have never been built.

rainbowdash wrote: »

What's obvious to me is not that the line was doomed to failure but that the fares are too high, the journey time too long, and the train seems to be in direct competition with buses operated by the same company.

First of all, it also faces competition from Citylink, a private operator.

Second of all, yes it was doomed to failure from the start. In fact the reports into it said it should never have been built. It was always going to be more expensive and slower then by road and therefore had no justification to be opened.

TheCoolWay

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Knock should never have been opened in the first place.

GOD opened it

TheCoolWay

Is there a rail freight depot in Dublin? Surely they could sort something out around Oranmore as a delivery spot?

Sponge Bob

At this stage the future of long and medium distance travel in the West will be very much about Express Buses and Motorways to express them along.

While a future ( rather very future) rail route from Sligo to Cork should be preserved as an alignment or better still as an active greenway owned by IE or the state the immediate requirement is for a Motorway from Cork to Tuam and 2+2 road north of Tuam to Sligo and then Letterkenny/Lifford where it can connect to the A5 Dual Carriageway.

Frankly the Waterford - Limerick Junction railway is also headed for greenway status from what I can see as is the Ballybrophy Nenagh route.

The restoration of Ennis-Athenry was a most unfortunate sideshow that has set back intelligent transport planning by years in the west. The money spent would have easily paid for the Gort-Athenry motorway and would have more than paid to bypass Tuam and Claregalway both...thereby making journey times far more predictable.

I am not a fan of rank idocy based on visceral hatred of the west (pace An Taisce) or the inappropriate restoration of 19th century rail routes...they had their day a long time ago.

Rail is suitable for heavy routes with good traffic and alignments and for commuting in perhaps Cork and Dublin only.

dowlingm

The Idyll Race wrote: »

No, I asked the question, and I am now asking you the same question, why are you unconcerned about the waste of money on motorway and road schemes

Once again you assume, WRONGLY, that because a person has concerns about one thing he is unconcerned about all others. It IS crazy that we have gold plated roads in some places and yet it took the same amount of time for me to get from Mallow to Croom on the Cork-Limerick road a couple of weeks ago in a rush to make a flight from Shannon as when I did the trip regularly 10 years ago. But I won't take the stance that because money was wasted in many places then you can't criticise waste in respect of something like the WRC - this isn't a roads thread after all.

end of the road

Sponge Bob wrote: »

At this stage the future of long and medium distance travel in the West will be very much about Express Buses and Motorways to express them along.

certainly where the places along the WRC are concerned.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

While a future ( rather very future) rail route from Sligo to Cork should be preserved as an alignment or better still as an active greenway owned by IE or the state

where would it go through though? if the WRC had been built on a new alignment or at least the parts that were light railway yet built to a speed faster then the motor ways as well as the cork line upgraded to 125 MPH then you would have your railway from sligo to cork but using existing railway as well as the new realigned WRC. so you could go cork limerick ennis then via a new alignment to galway or a re-aligned athenry junction and then a new line slowly deviating twoards mayo and sligo. but of course i'm sure their are a lot of problems with such a route so probably a whole new alignment would be the best option if it ever was to happen which it won't in our lifetimes.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

the immediate requirement is for a Motorway from Cork to Tuam and 2+2 road north of Tuam to Sligo and then Letterkenny/Lifford where it can connect to the A5 Dual Carriageway.

can that journey not be done via existing motor ways?

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Frankly the Waterford - Limerick Junction railway is also headed for greenway status from what I can see as is the Ballybrophy Nenagh route.

i fear you might be right. the limerick junction waterford line does have some potential but a lack of interest by IE + possibly faster busses will see this route close, as for a greenway on it possibly IE won't be allowed to lift the line? as for the poor limerick ballybroaphy line as soon as the alan kelly HST (sorry sleeper train) was introduced it was obvious the closure was going to come quicker due to existing commuters being put out by the service changes. if he was any way right kelly would have called for the line to be ran as a shuttle/commuter service but no he wanted his bullit train and now he's got it.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

19th century rail routes...they had their day a long time ago.

in fairness all our railways were built in the 19th and early 20th century but i take your point.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Rail is suitable for heavy routes with good traffic and alignments

most of the network then, would have good traffic if ran properly but we are where we are.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

commuting in perhaps Cork and Dublin only.

which is happening. dart + western/northern/cork commuter have good traffic and are doing well.

The Idyll Race

bk wrote: »

Yes all those other wastes of money annoy me too.

But just because money has been wasted elsewhere, doesn't then justify wasting money on WRC.

What a weird and twisted logic.

All projects should be vetted for their economic and social benefits and the projects with the greatest benefits carried out.

The WRC wouldn't even enter that list. Frankly it has almost no social or economic benefit. It is simply a money pit and should have never been built.



First of all, it also faces competition from Citylink, a private operator.

Second of all, yes it was doomed to failure from the start. In fact the reports into it said it should never have been built. It was always going to be more expensive and slower then by road and therefore had no justification to be opened.

My purpose here has been to put it to you that far worse waste which has been allowed to happen without any let or hindrance on the M3 project, which is truly the whitest of white elephants. The story of how compensation to land owners for the most dubious of reasons and how that compensation, in many cases, has been a multiple of the actual built cost, needs to be told. Instead, one of the thread regulars has blithely accepted this graft as helping to increase road safety.

I have already said that Athenry - Tuam would have worked. A Tuam - Galway service with efficent connections to Dublin would have added value to the rail network. However, in their wisdom CIE went ahead and gold plated the stations on Ennis - Athenry and charge for non-existent cars in their car parks, even though only Gort has any traffic. They then set up the service to fail.

I believe that solving the problem of the WRC has to be a bit more sophisticated than "trains outside Dublin and Cork are bad, mmmkay?" Cheaper motive power along the lines of Parry People Movers and Railbuses have never been given any consideration by the CIE monolith because the unions wouldn't wear them. One of the 1994 railcars that could have run in single car formation was never run in revenue earning service that way, despite many rural lines in Britain and France with similar or lower population densities surviving that way, and with no cross subsidisation either.

I believe that it should be publicised that Galway - Limerick trains (but not Ennis - Limerick), Limerick - Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction - Waterford are in imminent danger of being closed unless additional passengers use the services. Towns along the routes should have timetables circulated to them. Where I differ from the consensus here is that it should be realistically estimated what increase in passengers would be needed to justify what Translink are doing with Coleraine - Derry - an extended closure of these lines with rebuilds of the line to at least seventy five miles an hour speed limits.

If that fails then you can then cannibalise the lines for your greenways.

Remember Coleraine - Derry's future was not at all secure even ten years ago, but suitable rolling stock unlocked demand. I will not accept blithely that buses are good enough for those who do not use cars for every single journey.

Jamie2k9

well as the cork line upgraded to 125 MPH

I am fairly certain that the majoriy of Cork route could be upgraded to 125mph overnight as the new track can take it. Its the stock on the route that the problem. If Irish Rail didn't cut corners when they ordered the Mark4's they would have stock that can operate at 125mph but no they decided to keep there 201's operating which can only do 100mph. Mark4's were suposed to have twin power cars but then again I don't think many people would ever think that we would need 125 speeds.

Limerick Junction - Waterford are in imminent danger of being closed unless additional passengers use the services.

Can't see it being allowed to close unless IR make improvments to the service. If it was to close I think Limerik J-Clomenl as with the right timetable in place Clomnel-Waterford could be very profitable as a very high % of people from Clomnel work in Waterford or if the service didn't stop at Limerick J not to sure if its possible to operate direct to limeirick without stopping at the junction.

dubhthach

end of the road wrote: »

can that journey not be done via existing motor ways?

Nope not doable/practical at moment, as an example if you were to do Cork to Galway via only motorway/dual carriageway you would have to travel as far as the M50. Cork should be no longer then 2 hours travel distance from Galway. Going on Google Maps the current road distance from Merchant's Quay in Cork to Eyre Square is 195km. You would be lucky to do this in 3 hours on current road. If you were to route it via the M50 it would add up to about 450km and close on 5 hours travel time (at a minimum).

in fairness all our railways were built in the 19th and early 20th century but i take your point.

In case of the WRC it's definetley 19th century in route selection. The opening dates for the sections were the following:

• Limerick and Ennis Railway opened 1859
• Athenry and Tuam Railway opened 1860
• Athenry and Ennis Junction Railway opened 1869

All were eventually swallowed by the Waterford, Limerick & Western Railway (WL&WR) which was itself swallowed by the GS&WR in 1901.

Very little in way of rail construction in first 20 years of 20th century. I can think of the Castleblayney, Keady and Armagh Railway (1909-10) as well as the two colliery branches in Killkenny (Deerpark was one) that were built during World War I.

corktina

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I am fairly certain that the majoriy of Cork route could be upgraded to 125mph overnight as the new track can take it. Its the stock on the route that the problem. If Irish Rail didn't cut corners when they ordered the Mark4's they would have stock that can operate at 125mph but no they decided to keep there 201's operating which can only do 100mph. Mark4's were suposed to have twin power cars but then again I don't think many people would ever think that we would need 125 speeds.



.

sorry but you are wide of the mark. The mk4s are 125mph rated, the lines are nowhere near ready for operation at that speed (they are still updating to the 1970s standards of 100 mph) and the locos are 100 mph rated freight-derived units which aren't really suitable for the job they are doing now.

on other points raised...

the WRC was a waste of monery, and you can t justify it by saying "sure we've wasted more money on XY and Z". My opinions on other wastage are not relevant to this thread which is o n the WRC

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

the WRC was a waste of monery, and you can t justify it by saying "sure we've wasted more money on XY and Z". My opinions on other wastage are not relevant to this thread which is o n the WRC

But is it not the case that the economic policies of the time created a situation where money was there to waste, on everything from paying people a bonus to save money (SSIA's) to just about escaping from building the Bertie bowl being built.

Every major infrastructure project was underway when the wrc got approved motorways, tunnels, terminal 2 etc. was it not a case that the politicians were almost looking for projects to be spending money on?

In normal economic times the wrc would hardly be approved, certainly not in the present circumstances we find ourselves in.

dubhthach

rainbowdash wrote: »

Every major infrastructure project was underway when the wrc got approved motorways, tunnels, terminal 2 etc. was it not a case that the politicians were almost looking for projects to be spending money on?
.

Terminal 2 wasn't funded by the exchequer.