Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Thatsfootball

Really, the market isn't there as much for the WRC as times gone by. However a greenway would be developed at a much cheaper rate and would certainly be a bigger tourist attraction.
Knock airport won't close, it's doing very well as it is. The place is nearly or fully self sufficient unlike Shannon which had to be "bailed out" as such. Both airports can succeed, but Knock needs good roads leading from the Galway side of things and indeed from all sides!

Sponge Bob

Then there is this warm tribute to IEs competence.

http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/3527/2012-33/Galway-Limerick-service-goes-off-the-rails%5B/QUOTE

And, despite the Galway-Limerick rail route being in operation for over two years, online booking is still not available for the service, with a spokesperson for Irish Rail confirming that it would be 2013 before this facility will be available.

6 Years to upgrade their website to permit online booking. Genius that. I see Barry Kenny insisted he was not named in the article.

The Idyll Race

Thatsfootball wrote: »

Really, the market isn't there as much for the WRC as times gone by. However a greenway would be developed at a much cheaper rate and would certainly be a bigger tourist attraction.
Knock airport won't close, it's doing very well as it is. The place is nearly or fully self sufficient unlike Shannon which had to be "bailed out" as such. Both airports can succeed, but Knock needs good roads leading from the Galway side of things and indeed from all sides!

Don't see any calls for a greenway on the M3.

Will the new motorways in the west be tolled?

Are there landowners still making a fortune claiming development value over ag value for the lands along the M17/M18?

After all, making it impossible for passengers to use the railways will create extra demand on the new motorways, won't it.

Follow the money. It never fails.

westtip

The Idyll Race wrote: »

The most scandalous waste of money has been the M3, which cost far in excess of Ennis - Athenry in rewarding landowners along the route, and continues to cost the taxpayer money in paying the operator the tolls that they do not recover from the non-existent users.

However the residents of Gort etc must have it impressed on them that if they do not use the railway it will close.

There were a lot of vanity projects in the CT years and yes the M3 was one of them - this thread is about the WRC vanity project, so lets not get into another Shannon/Knock diversion.

Anyway I pulled out another little quote from Eamon O'cuiv:

Eamon O’Cuiv: In a speech at a conference about the Western Rail Corridor in May 2009. Mr O’Cuiv when Minister for Community and Gaeltacht affairs said:

“should we use the section of the railway line north of Claremorris as a walkway and cycleway while it is not open as railway?” - A Good question Mr O’Cuiv and why not?

I don't think West on Track put this speech on their website - I know they didn't like it - I spoke to E O'C on the day - he said to me privately it was about the only option available - so here we are 3 and 3 months later...

Oh and try this one for great quotes about the WRC

Noel Dempsey – Minister of Transport. In a Speech at the opening of phase one (Ennis-Athenry) of the Western Rail Corridor in March 2011:

“However, we all have to face the reality that the current funding environment is very difficult and it will not be possible to progress all the projects in Transport 21 in accordance with the ambitious timescale envisioned at its launch.”

“I cannot overstate the critical importance of local support for Phase 1 of the Western Rail Corridor in promoting the development of further phases of the Corridor. Now that the dream of reopening Phase 1 of the Western Rail Corridor has been realised, the challenge is to ensure its success.”?

And if you want a real laugh - you can find this on the WOT website

West on Track July 20th 2009 The Western Rail Corridor has already created 400 jobs in the construction phase and will deliver many thousands of jobs in private sector companies, once operational. Classic quote from West on Track overstating the case.

The Idyll Race

westtip wrote: »

There were a lot of vanity projects in the CT years and yes the M3 was one of them - this thread is about the WRC vanity project, so lets not get into another Shannon/Knock diversion.

Anyway I pulled out another little quote from Eamon O'cuiv:



I don't think West on Track put this speech on their website - I know they didn't like it - I spoke to E O'C on the day - he said to me privately it was about the only option available - so here we are 3 and 3 months later...

A good point re Claremorris - Collooney. I'll buy a hat and eat it if it is ever reused for rail services. Definitely a greenway for that.

After reading most (impossible to read all of it) of this thread, and where I fundamentally differ with the majority here, is that I believe that the section that should have been rebuilt was Athenry - Tuam, and rebuilt properly, not the half arsed job Irish Rail grudgingly did on Ennis - Athenry.

Crucially, the locals in Tuam wanted the railway more than the indifference of Gort and the other two villages that don't seem to provide any traffic on the time I travelled on the line.

The Idyll Race

The Idyll Race wrote: »

A good point re Claremorris - Collooney. I'll buy a hat and eat it if it is ever reused for rail services. Definitely a greenway for that.

The greenway in this area would be a better investment for local jobs and government, so IE will probaby put trains on it.:( The region should be looking for decent roads before contemplating spending further money on rail.

The Idyll Race

Deleted User wrote: »

The greenway in this area would be a better investment for local jobs and government, so IE will probaby put trains on it.:(

No they won't. Hyperbolic nonsense.

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

The greenway in this area would be a better investment for local jobs and government, so IE will probaby put trains on it.:( The region should be looking for decent roads before contemplating spending further money on rail.

MM its not just about IE - who incidentally want the northern branch line like a hole in the head; its about the pedantry that still exists in the county councils and more to the point a group of councillors sponsored by west on track called the Western Inter county Railway committee. Until their "moral authority" in which they claim to speak for the majority in the west is challenged by more modern thinking councillors in Sligo, Mayo, Galway and Roscommon county chambers - there will be an indifference from central government to get this greenway project off the ground. The continuous clutching at the holy grail of west on track will continue to be county council policy until the group I mentioned are challenged and removed from influence.

The Idyll Race wrote: »

I fundamentally differ with the majority here, is that I believe that the section that should have been rebuilt was Athenry - Tuam, and rebuilt properly, not the half arsed job Irish Rail grudgingly did on Ennis - Athenry.
.

Idyll Race: the McCann report of 2005 was the blueprint for the WRC, and ennis/Athenry was always pencilled in as "phase one" because it created an intercity link. You might be right about tuam athenry, but that did not create an intercity route but a northern branch line. Blaming IE is not really the full picture, the campaign group WOT always campaigned for the "re-opening of the old alignment" in many respects it is the old C19 alignment that is the problem - that is a problem IE inherited and was foisted on them by the campaign group. the alignment north of Claremorris is BTW a complete joke to even consider re-opening as a rail line. To many crossings, to many bends inclines oh .... and it goes through too many back gardens, front gardens and across private residential driveways and in charlestown petrol stations - thanks to the diligence of the planning departments in sligo and mayo county councils, who according to their county plans are committed to the re-opening of the WRC but failed to tell their planning departments!!!

pigtown

rainbowdash wrote: »

Ennis - Limerick was NOT already there, there was no train between Ennis and Limerick for years. Its just as water-muddying to say Ennis-Limerick was always there, when it wasn't.

I know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable of sources but according to it:

Passenger services on this section ceased in 1976 but were re-introduced in 1988 as far as Ennis and were increased progressively until a full six-weekday service was begun in 1994 which also had a limited Sunday service. A further expansion to eight services per weekday was begin in 2003 with the timetable further reorganised in March 2010 to incorporate the newly reopened track north of Ennis and services between Limerick and Galway.

So don't go claiming that the success of the Limerick-Ennis service has anything to do with the WRC.

rainbowdash

pigtown wrote: »

I know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable of sources but according to it:

Passenger services on this section ceased in 1976 but were re-introduced in 1988 as far as Ennis and were increased progressively until a full six-weekday service was begun in 1994 which also had a limited Sunday service. A further expansion to eight services per weekday was begin in 2003 with the timetable further reorganised in March 2010 to incorporate the newly reopened track north of Ennis and services between Limerick and Galway.

So don't go claiming that the success of the Limerick-Ennis service has anything to do with the WRC.

According to the same Wikipedia, Limerick - Ennis is part of the WRC. I don't think too many dispute that. As per your quote above there was no service at all for 12 years between Ennis-Limerick, and until 1994 I think it was a few trains a week and then until 2003 I think it was 3 trains per day on a crumbling old line.

Of course they should have reopened Ennis-Athenry in a similar fashion, as the line was functioning and intact, instead they spent millions on stations that nobody uses and achieved line speeds that are seemingly lower than the 1960's!

pigtown

rainbowdash wrote: »

According to the same Wikipedia, Limerick - Ennis is part of the WRC. I don't think too many dispute that. As per your quote above there was no service at all for 12 years between Ennis-Limerick, and until 1994 I think it was a few trains a week and then until 2003 I think it was 3 trains per day on a crumbling old line.

Of course they should have reopened Ennis-Athenry in a similar fashion, as the line was functioning and intact, instead they spent millions on stations that nobody uses and achieved line speeds that are seemingly lower than the 1960's!

I'm not disputing that the Limerick-Ennis line wasn't always there. It just looked from your post that you were somehow linking its success to the Ennis-Athenry section. Maybe I got that wrong.

I'm not so sure about your suggestion that the Ennis-Athenry section should have been opened in a similar fashion. Sure they added 3 new stations but in reality these add at most 10 minutes to the 2 hour journey. The biggest problems with the line are curves, gradients and level crossings. These all need to be dealt with before this line can be a success.

black47

Wonder if IE ever considered trying to provide direct services from Galway to Cork on the one train without changing at limerick and limerick junction. Is the track/signalling infastructure there to do this? Would this have made the line more viable?

Our man in Havana

It is not possible, with the track layouts in both Limerick and LJ.

flyingsnail

Our man in Havana wrote: »

It is not possible, with the track layouts in both Limerick and LJ.

It is not possible to run Galway to Limerick Junction without changing ends at limerick but it is possible to run direct to Cork from Limerick via platform 1 at Limerick junction.

corktina

rainbowdash wrote: »

Ennis - Limerick was NOT already there, there was no train between Ennis and Limerick for years. Its just as water-muddying to say Ennis-Limerick was always there, when it wasn't.

.

rubbish...ennis to Limerick was up and running for several years (quite sucessfully) before 106 MILLION plus subsidies of several million a year was wasted on re-opening the ennis to AThenry section. I didnt say ALWAYS there, you did...

Sponge Bob

Originally the Ennis - Limerick section and the Athenry - Tuam section were built as RAILWAY.

Ennis - Athenry and Tuam - Collooney were built as LIGHT RAILWAY some 20 years afterwards, completely different build standard.

All of course over 120 years ago.

dowlingm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

6 Years to upgrade their website to permit online booking. Genius that. I see Barry Kenny insisted he was not named in the article.

I assumed it was a problem like Carrick-on-Shannon - no printer - rather than a website issue.

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

rubbish...ennis to Limerick was up and running for several years (quite sucessfully) before 106 MILLION plus subsidies of several million a year was wasted on re-opening the ennis to AThenry section. I didnt say ALWAYS there, you did...

Ennis - Limerick had to be completely rebuilt too, presumably at a similar cost per mile, but it was done in dribs and drabs rather than a specific "capital" project which the politicians seem to prefer.

It still needs a subsidy to exist, probably not a lot less than Ennis-Athenry given the fixed cost of both stations and manning them is already there.

Anyway, how about 4 express trains Limerick-Galway per day, stopping at Atherny and Ennis only, along with a few crawler trains o serve the ghost stations, price Limerick - Galway €20 return and then see if there is interest.

From what I can see high fares is half the problem.

highlydebased

In the Leader...

By Nick Rabbitts
Published on Thursday 16 August 2012 14:00

AN average of only 95 passengers a day used the Limerick to Galway train last year, leading to calls for it to be closed down.

Figures released this week show that in 2011, just 35,000 people used the long-awaited train service.

Only 16% of the available seats on board each train serving this part of the Western Rail Corridor have been taken, figures released by Irish Rail have shown.

The route - opened in 2010 with great fanfare by then Transport Minister Noel Dempsey - cost €106.5m to construct.

Now, a member of that government Willie O’Dea says it is time to look at the future of the six-times-a-day service which also serves Ennis, Gort, Sixmilebridge and Athenry.

The rail line opened following a wide-scale campaign by the West on Track group.

However, because the train cannot exceed a certain speed - and calls at intermediate stops along the way - it has proven quicker to travel by road to Galway.

The train takes two and a quarter hours, while a road trip can take a little over an hour.

Bus travel is also cheaper than train travel, which is thought to have also contributed to the low train ridership.

Irish Rail spokesman Barry Kenny defended the route, saying that it was still heavily used by commuters on the Limerick to Ennis portion.

“We are experiencing a calamitous recession which has reduced demand on all travel modes and we will continue to promote the service and seek to grow the business,” he said.

But Mr O’Dea said the route has not been properly advertised.

He admitted he was unaware of the service when two weeks ago, when a constituent asked if he was attending the Galway races.

“It did not enter my consciousness,” he said.

He said the low bus fare in comparison to the train also raises questions.

“I think we need to talk to the people behind it to try if it can be made a success. But if it cannot be made a success, we have to seriously look at closing it down because it will be an unviable service. This is a waste of public money which we do not have,” he told the Limerick Leader this Wednesday.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/just-95-passengers-a-day-on-limerick-galway-train-1-4170437

dowlingm

“It did not enter my consciousness,” (O'Dea) said.

Sure he was unconscious for years as a Minister.

corktina

fudging the3 issue yet again!

"Irish Rail spokesman Barry Kenny defended the route, saying that it was still heavily used by commuters on the Limerick to Ennis portion"

106 million euro in re-building costs and several miilion a year in losses....let no-one ever forget that this is what the Ennis to Athenry section cost, and that services fromLimerick to Ennis and Galway to Athenry were already there and no part of that cost quoted referes to those sections

KENNY...stop defending the indefensible!

The Idyll Race

corktina wrote: »

fudging the3 issue yet again!

"Irish Rail spokesman Barry Kenny defended the route, saying that it was still heavily used by commuters on the Limerick to Ennis portion"

106 million euro in re-building costs and several miilion a year in losses....let no-one ever forget that this is what the Ennis to Athenry section cost, and that services fromLimerick to Ennis and Galway to Athenry were already there and no part of that cost quoted referes to those sections

KENNY...stop defending the indefensible!

Question, why does rail waste push far more buttons in this country than road waste, which has been legion? Just curious.

ardmacha

Question, why does rail waste push far more buttons in this country than road waste, which has been legion? Just curious.

Because most people never go on a train?

The Idyll Race

ardmacha wrote: »

Because most people never go on a train?

The tone is pretty harsh on this thread, you would think money was been taken from the mouths of those with an interest in the construction of roads.

corktina

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Question, why does rail waste push far more buttons in this country than road waste, which has been legion? Just curious.

what road waste? show me a new road with hardly any users and costing a fortune in losses every year and which is slower than its rivals...

markpb

corktina wrote: »

what road waste? show me a new road with hardly any users and costing a fortune in losses every year and which is slower than its rivals...

The M3 meets two of your three criteria.

flyingsnail

markpb wrote: »

The M3 meets two of your three criteria.

Same with the Limerick tunnel.

The Idyll Race

flyingsnail wrote: »

Same with the Limerick tunnel.

Yes. Funny that.

Does Freedom of Information give us the names and amounts paid for CPOs on Motorway building? I understand that at least one name would make for interesting reading.

Ker-ching!

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

fudging the3 issue yet again!

"Irish Rail spokesman Barry Kenny defended the route, saying that it was still heavily used by commuters on the Limerick to Ennis portion"

106 million euro in re-building costs and several miilion a year in losses....let no-one ever forget that this is what the Ennis to Athenry section cost, and that services fromLimerick to Ennis and Galway to Athenry were already there and no part of that cost quoted referes to those sections

KENNY...stop defending the indefensible!

The true cost is nothing like €106m. That is just the budget, a lot of that would have been recouped in taxes on the wages of the people working on the track, materials bought and hired from quarries, tool shops etc., and the tax on the wages of the people working for thm etc. etc.. Then the wages are spent in shops, more vat, commercial rates paid etc. Farmers were paid for bits of land and closing access crossings etc., this money would hav gone back around the economy.

How much was spent on materials for the rebuild and how much of this was imported - that would give a better picture of the true cost.

The same way as closing it would only yield marginal savings, as the people working on the track are paying income tax, vat in shop purchases, and if they went on the dole they would cost the government social welfare anyway.

The real operating cost is the cost of the diesel, gradual depreciation of track and rolling stock etc., again the bottom line savings will be marginal.

corktina

rainbowdash wrote: »

The true cost is nothing like €106m. That is just the budget, a lot of that would have been recouped in taxes on the wages of the people working on the track, materials bought and hired from quarries, tool shops etc., and the tax on the wages of the people working for thm etc. etc.. Then the wages are spent in shops, more vat, commercial rates paid etc. Farmers were paid for bits of land and closing access crossings etc., this money would hav gone back around the economy.

How much was spent on materials for the rebuild and how much of this was imported - that would give a better picture of the true cost.

The same way as closing it would only yield marginal savings, as the people working on the track are paying income tax, vat in shop purchases, and if they went on the dole they would cost the government social welfare anyway.

The real operating cost is the cost of the diesel, gradual depreciation of track and rolling stock etc., again the bottom line savings will be marginal.

is that you Barry?