Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

DDigital

I've no interest in agendas from either camp. But as a long time reader of this particular issue, I very much congratulate the original dissenters of this disaster from as far back as 2004. They were right in a lot of ways and probably created the debate that has ensued. I think Thomas sheridan and Derek wheeler from what was Platform 11 should be credited for being ahead of Colm McCarthy, because whether anyone likes it or not, they were. That said, there is always another side to the story and based on tonight's evidence, why not timetable the route to Cork, give them a tea trolley and a better train. Will it make a difference?

Hotblack Desiato

A tea trolley would only overwhelm the toilet facilities, given that only OAPs would use the route... Christ almighty what would the travel time to Cork be from Galway? 4 or 5 hours? You simply cannot expect any paying passenger to endure that.

westtip

The thing that was so hilarious about the programme last night was the way West on Track and the likes of Luke Ming Flanagan took on the mantle of "speaking on behalf of the west".

Most people out here couldn't give a flying F*ck about the Western Rail corridor and no full well what has been built is a complete white elephant and the chances of phases 2 and 3 happening in any of our lifetimes are diddly and squat.

I was talking to a hotelier who has the WRC literally running through his back yard recently - who is desparate to see the sligo-mayo greenway happen - he has spoken to our local politicians about it and had no response - it seems the only mantra they will listen to is WOT and the only thing they will do is nothing.

trail man

The axe fell on the limerick/kerry line exactly the same day as the western rail corridor was closed way back in the 70s..
we now have a greenway from ABBEYFEALE IN COUNTY LIMERICK TO RATHKEALE CO LIMERICK..
IT has been the receipent of many awards both nationally and european..
And if ever the need arises it can be once again converted back to a railway..
see www.southerntrail.net

Judgement Day

Now trail_man let's be fair, the people (one in particular) behind your Southern Trail http://www.southerntrail.net/ started out to preserve the North Kerry line as an operating railway and when this proved impossible settled for the walking/cycling trail. Hardly an ideal outcome but at least 'some' of the alignment is saved - not that the railway has the slightest chance of being rebuilt again.

westtip

Trailman I know it is brilliant. Can you imagine if there had been the vision to put a parallel greenway on the Athenry/Ennis line, there is plenty of room - and look for ways to link with the great southern trail - and then put a greenway on the WRC north of Athenry to Tuam and Claremorris and onto Sligo to link with a greenway that is being proposed on the old sligo north leitrim line and then link the great western greenway with this north south route

Imagine what that would do for West of Ireland tourism....the likes of Luke Ming and WOT talk about infrastructure and tourism, Strangely that is exactly what I have been talking about on these boards when it comes to the Greenway infrastructure.

The cost of subventing the 8 passengers per train from Ennis to Athenry over a period of a few years would have paid for this greenway network in the west and bought millions of tourist euros into the west.

Now that is what I would call tourism infrastructure.

Judgement Day - you cannot build railway infrastructure so a few OAPs can have a nice day out with a flask of coffee, cheese sandwiches and bottle of ginger beer! Whilst they visit their aunt nelly at the other end of the line....

And JD as you well know - if you make the railway heritage an integral part of the greenway experience it adds value to the tourist product and experience.

By the way one interesting point Ming said last night was the fact the train from Limerick to Galway takes longer than the days of steam - do you know what if the line did have steam trains on it - it would actually be a far more attractive tourist attracttion!

Judgement Day

westtip - you've been on the ginger beer again - far too much thinking outside the box.

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

westtip - you've been on the ginger beer again - far too much thinking outside the box.

I know its going to my head!:D

corktina

Looking at another forum just now, there were 4 posts on the Prime Time prog. Until one poster took them to task, they were discussing the merits of the pictures of the trains. What are they like?

trail man

yes indeed you would be correct in stating that the attempts to save the line were futile and political interference to by pass rathkeale co limerick by using part of the line in rathkeale as the bypass route was the death knell to the line..incidentally it is on record that if ever the line needed to be reopened again the route would once again be restored..And it has been restored but now as but a greenway..
anyway the unfinished section of the western rail corridor is now in limbo and with the way this country has gone off the rails {pardon the pun}.will be of no use to anyone in its current state and everyone is at a loss..be it greenway people or west on track..

Victor

westtip wrote: »

By the way one interesting point Ming said last night was the fact the train from Limerick to Galway takes longer than the days of steam - do you know what if the line did have steam trains on it - it would actually be a far more attractive tourist attracttion!

Hardly enough passing points for the real scheduled trains ...
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0117/1224310362612.html

West Clare railway link for Kilrush
GORDON DEEGAN

PLANS HAVE been announced to extend the famous west Clare railway into the market town of Kilrush within the next two years.

Jackie Whelan, originally of the committee for the Restoration of the West Clare Railway, said yesterday that after Kilrush, he was planning to extend the line to Kilkee and to provide a rail-link to the €150 million Doonbeg Golf Club resort on the Clare coast.

Some 2.5km of track of the restored railway are already in place at Moyasta, mid-distance between Kilkee and Kilrush.

In August 2009, Mr Whelan rejuvenated the west Clare railway with the completion of the restoration project on the 120-year old Slieve Callan steam engine.

Yesterday, he said that visitor numbers to the railway had been boosted with the return of the steam engine and last year topped 18,000 people.

Visitors can travel on board the 40-tonne Slieve Callan on the restored track.

Between 1892 and 1952, the Slieve Callan powered the west Clare railway, which had been immortalised in song by Percy French. The railway was shut down by the government in 1961.

In a submission lodged with Clare County Council, Mr Whelan stated that Shannon Development had confirmed plans “to assist the West Clare Railway lay its track into Kilrush and the service to the town is hoped to begin within two years”.

In the document, Mr Whelan confirmed the railway’s intention to extend to Doonbeg Golf Club.

Confirming that negotiations have been ongoing sometime with the directors of the club, Mr Whelan wrote: “It is now intended that, subject to the final financial arrangements being satisfactory, the west Clare railway will extend its track to Mountrivers along its former track-bed wherever possible.

“From a site alongside the former Doonbeg station, the line will be extended along the river bank to a station alongside the golf club hotel.”

The route of the west Clare railway is protected in the Clare county development plan.

Almost as many passengers as the Western Rail Corridor (although for a much shorter distance).

Judgement Day

I think Santa Jackie Whelan is seriously deluded in his plans and his 18,000 passenger figure looks as suspect as IE's numbers for the WRC. I wonder if he's hoping for a Baronial guarantee for his new railway.

Victor

chris2008x wrote: »

Haha what a TOOL the Luas is not subsidized

You might ease off on the name calling.

---

Luas covers it operating costs and puts aside a small amount that will go some distance towards its renewals cost. However, it doesn't pay off its capital costs or the interest on that capital.

Hungerford

Victor wrote: »

You might ease off on the name calling.

In fairness, I think the poster was expressing the frustration that many of us feel about Colm McCarthy, Moore McDowell etc. being paraded in the media as transport experts and their questionable arguments - particularly their comparisons with other European states - generally going unchallenged.

For instance, during the Prime Time report one of them asserted that elsewhere in Europe it had been shown that intercity railways were unviable unless they linked cities of one million people or more.

This assertion would probably come as a surprise to the Swiss who run high-speed intercity services linking cities with populations of fewer than 400,000 people.

rainbowdash

I love the way they always try and Exclude the Ennis - Limerick numbers by claiming it was always there. The Ennis - Limerick line was closed to passengers for donkeys years and has been rebuilt from nothing.

Moving ahead the line is built now and "somebody" needs to get the passenger numbers up. The slow journey time doesn't help, the fares are too high when compared to the competition.

Limerick - Galway should have a number of €10 return fares on each train depending on normal demand at the time of day.

Galway - Ennis and Limerick Ennis should have a quota of €5 fares depending on demand at the time.

All should be available online and modern concepts like livingsocial, boardsdeals, pigsback etc. used to sell and promote train fares and weekend breaks to and from Limerick / Cork / Galway and Waterford.

There is an opportunity now with high fuel prices to get people converted to public transport. Once a good baseload is established prices can be tweaked upwards.

Its 2012 now and all companies need to work harder to bring in their customers, I have no doubt a private operator would make a decent fist of getting passengers on trains between the cities above.

Pay Irish rail a base subsidy to operate the trains and maintain the tracks, but let somebody competent sell the tickets and market the line, paying Irish Rail a % of ticket sales.

Solair

Just looked it up on www.irishrail.ie

A trip from Cork to Galway using the WRC via Limerick would take 4h18mins and cost €54.00

You start your trip by going to Limerick Junction on the Cork-Dublin Intercity service.
Then getting a smaller train from Limerick Junction to Limerick City.
Then change onto the WRC to Galway.

Another option included:

Cork Commuter Rail service to Mallow.
Join Tralee-Dublin train to Limerick Junction.
Smaller Train to Limerick City
WRC to Galway.

You'd definitely drive it faster and it's hardly convenient with all those changes!

The money would have been better spent upgrading bus links in the West. At least they'd have served more communities and been financially viable.

bk

rainbowdash wrote: »

Moving ahead the line is built now and "somebody" needs to get the passenger numbers up.

Or alternatively we can close the line and save the €3 million a year subsidy to be used on other things in the west like improved bus services, keeping hospitals open, schools, etc.

As for more promotions, what is that going to get you realistically other then needing even more subsidy?

The reality is that the two competing bus services are significantly faster, more frequent and cheaper then the WRC.

corktina

yes, running money off offers will only reduce the cash take.

The company I worked for tried that...reduced their core price from 6.95 to 4.95 which increased sales not one jot (actually reduced them as the product was not conceived as PREMIUM at the lower price). In desperation they then issued many many thousands of EURO OFF vouchers....net result...liqudation .

LXFlyer

From an operational perspective the service needs to be run as a Galway-Limerick Junction or Galway-Waterford service with proper connections at Limerick Junction.

However, for that to be practical the Dublin/Cork service needs to be sorted out so that all Dublin/Cork and Cork/Dublin trains pass each other at Limerick Junction within 5 minutes of one another so that passengers travelling to/from Waterford, Galway and Limerick are not left waiting there for more than 15 minutes.

L1011

rainbowdash wrote: »

I love the way they always try and Exclude the Ennis - Limerick numbers by claiming it was always there. The Ennis - Limerick line was closed to passengers for donkeys years and has been rebuilt from nothing.

Many, many years before Ennis-Athenry

The only figures that count for the cash outlay to relay Ennis-Athenry are those using that section. Anything else is fiddling the figures.

westtip

Hungerford wrote: »

In
This assertion would probably come as a surprise to the Swiss who run high-speed intercity services linking cities with populations of fewer than 400,000 people.

And just how many cities of 400,000 do we have to link up with high speed trains? Plus Switzerland happens if you hadn't noticed to be nestled between three of Europes most populous countries - Italy Germany and France, so the wider links to the European rail network are critical.....

McCarthy may be a droll economist but he says it as it is, I thought he was excellent on the programme, in particular his view about "if you have wasted money in one part of the country there seems to be the view to get balanced regional development you should waste it another part of the country" - I paraphrase but that is the gist of what he said.

Victor re steam trains on the WRC I meant take off the regular trains and only run steam trains - it would make the line a major tourist attraction and a kind of disney experience - afterall it has little more than novelty value at this stage so lets give it real novelty value!

Solair

I find in a lot of the debate and planning around some of these projects that there is a complete lack of sense of scale.

Ireland basically has three urban centres that would warrant regular intercity services i.e. Dublin, Belfast and Cork.

The Cork-Dublin service is actually used quite heavily and does resemble a proper InterCity service.

Galway-Dublin etc all seem to work quite well too, since the intercity DMUs came into use as they can adapt to loads. They're basically just regional services, quite comparable to the TER in France for example.

We have absolutely no justification for very high-speed rail, although we could take things up to 200km/h on those Cork-Dublin-Belfast key routes in a bit-by-bit approach i.e. any new upgrades / repairs / signaling should be carried out to that spec.

Galway-Dublin etc is simply not far enough nor is it big enough to warrant more than about the top speed of the Intercity DMU fleet.

The WRC simply makes no sense at all. The places it connects don't appear to have regular traffic between them anyway as Limerick and Galway are basically small regional hubs. So, people in their respective catchment areas tend to go towards the regional hub, and there's relatively little traffic between the two.

I would much rather have seen the WRC money spent on something useful in the West. There are loads of projects like tourism initiatives, business development and things like state aid to roll out essential infrastructure like rural broadband that would have been much more sensible uses for that cash and would have had a much more positive effect on the region's economy than a white elephant train service that nobody can find a use for.

Major infrastructure projects have to be justified very carefully. There is a finite amount of capital available and blowing it all on a few vanity project like the WRC just means that other vital regional infrastructure is left starved of funds.

If the WRC becomes a major drain on resources, I don't really see why it wouldn't be shut down. It is not a vital service and it really cannot be justified as such.

Hungerford

westtip wrote: »

And just how many cities of 400,000 do we have to link up with high speed trains? Plus Switzerland happens if you hadn't noticed to be nestled between three of Europes most populous countries - Italy Germany and France, so the wider links to the European rail network are critical.....

I am talking about domestic intercity services, which link Zurich (pop: 400,000) with Basel (pop: 170,000); Bern (349,000); Geneva (192,000) and Lausanne (pop: 128,000).

Incredibly, the Swiss even have an almost direct equivalent to our Western Rail Corridor - the line between Biel and Lusanne. The cities are practically the same distance apart as Limerick and Galway and are connected by a branch line which goes through a town the size of Ennis (Neuchtal).

The Swiss service takes 59 minutes and is equipped with first class, a minibar and a dining car. Return tickets cost €27. The Irish version takes two hours, has no facilities and return tickets cost €36.

corktina

if it wasnt there, would they spend 100 million+ building it?

Switzerland is a different kettle of fish anyway, due to the terrain and the weather, rail has an advantage over road that doesnt exist in Ireland

westtip

Hungerford wrote: »

I am talking about domestic intercity services, which link Zurich (pop: 400,000) with Basel (pop: 170,000); Bern (349,000); Geneva (192,000) and Lausanne (pop: 128,000).

.

Galway city just over 75,000
Limerick city just over 100,000

Simple figures really but they show why there is no demand for the "intercity" link between the two.

Add to this the cultural and economic issues, these two cities do no share common hinterlands, they do not share historical trading ties, they do not share strong cultural or commercial ties, the level of traffic between the two cities is very limited in terms of human traffic and commerce. The need for fast efficient links from the regional cities to the one city we have in this state is apparent. As for interconnectivity between the regional towns/cities- yes it needs improving but in our car centric society and with our dispersed populations - all our supply chain logistics are based on road transport - which is why the WRC is a complete and utter shambles of an idea which was ill conceived badly thought through and above all horrendously executed - because it revolved around the idea of re-opening C19th infrastructure.

foggy_lad

Hungerford wrote: »

I am talking about domestic intercity services, which link Zurich (pop: 400,000) with Basel (pop: 170,000); Bern (349,000); Geneva (192,000) and Lausanne (pop: 128,000).

Incredibly, the Swiss even have an almost direct equivalent to our Western Rail Corridor - the line between Biel and Lusanne. The cities are practically the same distance apart as Limerick and Galway and are connected by a branch line which goes through a town the size of Ennis (Neuchtal).

The Swiss service takes 59 minutes and is equipped with first class, a minibar and a dining car. Return tickets cost €27. The Irish version takes two hours, has no facilities and return tickets cost €36.

Lausanne has a population (as of December 2010) of 127,821,[1] making it the fifth largest city of the country, with the entire agglomeration area having over 330,000 inhabitants.[4] The Metropolitan Area of Lausanne-Geneva is over 1.2 million inhabitants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lausanne

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biel/Bienne

Biel/Bienne and Lausanne are much larger areas than Limerick and Galway and Lausanne is part of a major urban area which includes geneva.

Switzerland and the area covered by the stations you mentioned are swamped almost all year round by tourists

Biel/Bienne is the heart of the Swiss watch-making industry. Trademarks such as Festina, Candino, Perrelet, Leroy, Swatch, Omega, Rolex and many others are closely associated with the city of Biel, The Swatch Group has its worldwide headquarters in the tree lined "Seevorstadt", in the previous building of ASUAG.
The small but beautiful historic centre, with its gothic church (15th century), impressive guild halls and fountains decorated with flowers, entice one to stroll, while restaurants brimming with character wait to greet visitors on their terraces. Leaving the historic centre, the tree-lined "Seevorstadt" takes to the lake and its beautiful shoreline. On the way the visitors pass the Biel "Cultural Quarter" with the Neuhaus and Schwab Museums and the CentrePasquArt.
The Jura mountains are easily reached by funicular railway from Biel, with both the Biel/Bienne–Leubringen/Evilard funicular and the Biel/Bienne–Magglingen/Macolin funicular linking the city with the foothills. It takes just seven minutes to reach Magglingen (where the Federal Sports School is located) and from where numerous walking paths start in every direction. Magglingen, Leubringen, Prêles and the year round resort of Les Prés-d'Orvin offer sensational views of the Alps on a clear day. The highest viewpoint is Chasseral (1607 m a.s.l). The steep gorge of Taubenloch also offers a spectacular scenery.
The port of Biel is the starting point for scenic river and lake cruises, which can take the visitors to the city of Solothurn, St. Peter's Island and the Lakes Neuchâtel and Murten (Three-Lake-Tour). Do not forget to interrupt the lake cruise with a visit to one of the picturesque wine-growing villages to taste their fine products. The experience is at its best during the autumn harvest and when the wine festivals are held against a background of autumn colours. Other culinary specialties of the Biel region include perch and whitefish filets and the famous marc sausage.
Biel also makes the ideal starting point for cycling tours with a wide selection of routes to choose from: sporting cyclists can measure themselves against the Jura foothills or more, while day-trippers can opt for the routes along the waterfront, where restaurants and cafés are on hand to help top up energy reserves. For families a trip to the lakeside Seeland is a must, where kilometres of quiets paths lead through an area of cultivation. The "Vegetable Route" provides information panels along the way on the more than 60 varieties of vegetable cultivated in the area.
With the architecturally impressive Congress Centre, the city of Biel offers excellent facilities for major national and international congresses, meetings and seminars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lausanne#Sights

Not strictly comparing like with like but Ireland will never have the same as the Swiss in terms of demand for trains so this white elephant should never have got off the ground!!

purplepanda

Line speed seems to be a very big problem for IE, they don't seem to be able to increase line speeds even compared to 30 years ago or worse, do they contract out any repairs, upgrades & maintenance to private contractors?

The upgrade & repair costs should be comparable to railways in other EU states & not be costing substantially more, unless line speeds are increased so that rail transport is a real option for travel, most of the network will eventually close!!!

If you can get there substantially faster by road why bother with the train??? Especially if you have to constantly change trains & wait about for connections :mad:

Jehuty42

lxflyer wrote: »

From an operational perspective the service needs to be run as a Galway-Limerick Junction or Galway-Waterford service with proper connections at Limerick Junction.

However, for that to be practical the Dublin/Cork service needs to be sorted out so that all Dublin/Cork and Cork/Dublin trains pass each other at Limerick Junction within 5 minutes of one another so that passengers travelling to/from Waterford, Galway and Limerick are not left waiting there for more than 15 minutes.

Do you post as user Platform10 on IRN?

dowlingm

The Swiss do still have a rail industry (Stadler is even selling into the US these days on FRA/Buy America waivers) whereas the Inchicore works have mouldered in CIE ownership and rolling stock is sourced abroad rather than refitting what is there already. It also helps that Switzerland has direct links to Italy/Germany/France/Austria (or at least the willingness to bore holes to get there) rather than 40 miles of water to the nearest landmass.

SBB can even produce an Annual Report in English (PDF) - which is not an official language in that country.

Solair

The comparison with Switzerland is not really accurate to be honest. You'd want to be comparing with rural Northwestern France, parts of Norway or Scotland to get anything remotely similar to the West of Ireland in terms of population densities and spread.

Then you have to factor into the mix in Ireland that there is no onward connection to major urban centers and absolutely no way of using long-distance rail freight.

If you take a look at a country like Spain for example, which has excellent rail infrastructure, far flung and low population centre cities like Pamplona are only served from Madrid 4 times per day!

Pamplona has an urban population of 198,000 and a metropolitan population of 319,208, so it's about the size of Cork.

Dublin-Cork can justify more services because the distances are shorter, but even so similar population centers elsewhere do not really get stellar service.