Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

eth0

highlydebased wrote: »

Ah, well, in the case of Limerick-Galway theres dual carraigeway or motorway 75% the way there which are both excellent roads. The N18 other than that is a decent road anyway. That entirely negates it to be honest...




Seriously? That probably makes féck all difference to the average. I'd say the majority of those people were probably going to Ennis anyway. Why would you go from Dublin to Galway via Limerick? Would take twice as long

If those trains from Dublin are consistently late and cause the ones from Limerick Junction to be late then it could have an impact. I used to travel frequently on the Dublin to Cork train and I remember one that was 10-20 minutes late every time

corktina wrote: »

The N18 also has the advantage that it goes to Galway not Athenry...

I can't see many people travelling from Lim Junct to Galway like that. As said those connecting off the Dublin train if going beyond Limerick would be going to Ennis (an established flow before the new bit of WRC opened). Anyone travelling through to Galway would probably find it quicker to go via Dublin (or possibly there would be a connection at Port Laoise or somewhere on to that line

Thats how I'd end up going from Cork. Even if there's a bit of a wait Limerick Junction & Limerick I couldn't stick sitting on the bus for that long and stopping in all the places that bus stops.

Could the line from Limerick to Galway support direct services that don't stop anywhere else without getting caught behind another train?

corktina

you are behind the times. Bus Eierann now operate an express service via the Motorway I think. Its a lot faster than the train and I beleive its cheaper

kinda answers your last question too doesnt it..

L1011

roundymac wrote: »

I thought it was 2700's were running on the WRC.

They are, and they're worse than the 22s.

eth0

corktina wrote: »

you are behind the times. Bus Eierann now operate an express service via the Motorway I think. Its a lot faster than the train and I beleive its cheaper

kinda answers your last question too doesnt it..

I actually used that the day the train didn't wait for me, would have made no odds for me since I just ended up waiting in Galway for the 64 when it arrived

Just looking at the timetables for limerick to galway the whole thing seems a bit of a mess, why can the thing not go faster and why does it hang around in ennis for 20-25 minutes?

highlydebased

eth0 wrote: »

I actually used that the day the train didn't wait for me, would have made no odds for me since I just ended up waiting in Galway for the 64 when it arrived

Just looking at the timetables for limerick to galway the whole thing seems a bit of a mess, why can the thing not go faster and why does it hang around in ennis for 20-25 minutes?

You're looking at the 51 which stops in all the towns.

The 51X is the nonstop which takes 80 mins, it has very high patronage. 40 minutes faster than the train. It's 16 ish euros return, the train is 20 return

Even the Citylink which runs Limk-Galway is faster than the train at 90 mins, even that picks up in Gort and Oranmore etc. I got a return ticket online for a tenner! Why, oh why, would you use the train when you have 2 potential buses which would take you there far faster and a few euros cheaper?

trail man

Hey guys all this chit chat on bus timetables and so on will have little bearing on whether or not the remaining section of the wrc will be viable to be once again operational..
personally i think that while such conflict of interests exist between the greenway people and the save the track brigade all thats going to happen in the interm is NOTHING and the railway corridor will go back to nature
and the landowners will start to creep back into the equasion and ultimately lay claim to their little patch of the corridor..
not making a decision about the lines future is really actually making a decision condeming the corridor to a no mans land scenario...

eth0

highlydebased wrote: »

You're looking at the 51 which stops in all the towns.

The 51X is the nonstop which takes 80 mins, it has very high patronage. 40 minutes faster than the train. It's 16 ish euros return, the train is 20 return

Even the Citylink which runs Limk-Galway is faster than the train at 90 mins, even that picks up in Gort and Oranmore etc. I got a return ticket online for a tenner! Why, oh why, would you use the train when you have 2 potential buses which would take you there far faster and a few euros cheaper?

Because I don't like buses and in this instance it wouldn't have saved me any time except more time to hang around in Galway where I didn't want to be at all, even when I'm in England I almost never use the bus and the trains there are a complete rip off.

but what I want to know is why can't the train go faster, its a brand new line so why all this time stopped at random stations, you'd think that if they got their act together they could provide a better service on that line

Jehuty42

eth0 wrote: »

its a brand new line

It's not though, it was a rebuild of an old alignment with second hand track and sleepers, with hundreds of level crossings. Nobody wanted to waste money CPOing more land to realign the line into a useful direction, or earthworks and road realignment to eliminate level crossings. There just wasn't(and isn't) any point spending all that when the patronage will always be low. The population density just isn't there, regardless of the speed of the line. It was built as a vote grabber by the old FF government during boom times, and the quickest and cheapest job that could be done to satisfy WoT was done.

eth0 wrote: »

so why all this time stopped at random stations

Because there aren't enough passing loops to avoid waiting around at the few that there are. The stations themselves are random and in the middle of nowhere because that's where they were 100 years ago and WoT wasn't interested in rebuilding the line as an express line that doesn't stop at every gombeen town along the way. They wanted the old inefficient line that was closed decades ago for being unprofitable back, with no changes to make it more sustainable. Again, they were given that for votes and to shut them up.

eth0 wrote: »

you'd think that if they got their act together they could provide a better service on that line

What would be the point? No one is going to use it because there is a faster and cheaper bus for the low number of people who make that journey. For the people served by the intermediate stations, they are already some of the most car-dependent people in Europe.

The line is a folly, a white elephant of the highest order.

corktina

just to add to jehutys excellent summing up, if this line is a huge white elephant after spending 100s of millions on it and being saddled with huge costs to subsidise it what chance does the rest of the WRC stand which doesnt run between too major cities?

Oh and the Greenway is perfectly capable of sharing the trackbed with a railway, they do this in the UK and elswhere. Builldiong this will in no way preclude the later re-instatment of the railway in changed times.

I used to think like you etho....at a superfiicial glance it seems an excellent idea to re-open the all the old railways, but when i analised it properly with my trainspotting head firmly in the cupboard, i could see that it wasn't a good idea and changed my opinion.

westtip

Well put Corky, and the summary is the essence of the whole thing. The whole thing was a compromise and vote catcher - really no more than a publicity stunt for FF election campaigns paid for by the Germans, whose money keeps this state going and paid for a lot of the Celtic Tiger Follies and vanity projects. Railways of course have their place in the transport mix, rural rail lines in the west of ireland linking small centres of population are just that - a Folly...There is now no chance of phases 2 and 3 north of Athenry happening. The announcement will be made soon., mind you in Ireland - you just never know.....

dowlingm

The alignment at Athenry (rather than toward Galway) is a problem but a new alignment is megashekels to build and isn't the end of the world. A lot of the catchment would probably prefer to catch PaleRail than an out of the way train anyway.

The first thing is the WRC was not rated against other national rail priorities. All of the WoT promotional material treated it as a standalone, parity of esteem project which the West (for whom they deemed they spoke) demanded.

The second thing is the WRC was not rated against other WESTERN rail priorities. That the line was built with no additional Athenry-Galway capacity and no station at Oranmore is an indictment. Even now while Oranmore is promised there is no passing track in the planning docs.

The third thing is that the WRC was built as a local service, not a regional one. Land speculators around Craughwell and Ardrahan thought they would throw up shoeboxes in a rural area and Irish Rail would deliver them customers. Instead the money that went to tarring land for empty car parks should have gone to fixing the 5mph bridge near Ennis, the level crossings for which the line was closed to sort soon after it finally went into service, and let's not EVER forget flood prevention at Kiltartan.

The fourth thing is that the WRC was joined to a line which was doing reasonably well (Ennis-Limerick) while substantially compromised by flood risk, by manual level crossings, by antiquated signalling, by no passing loop at Sixmilebridge (see Oranmore above), by low speed limits and no station near CIT/Thomond Park.

The fifth thing is that Irish Rail continue to refuse to through-timetable service in the Limerick area. Not only can you not get a through train from Galway-Cork or Galway-Waterford, you can't even get Ennis-Limerick Junction or Ennis-Nenagh. Even if by chance the Ennis train you're on will continue to Nenagh or LJ, the timetable says disembark.

The sixth thing is Irish Rail will not restore Claremorris-Athenry as a freight only line (like Navan-Drogheda) which might provide revenue for Limerick Junction to Waterford and keep some freight off Claremorris-Cherryville-Waterford because in part they put in so little passing capacity from Athenry-Limerick there are no decent paths that way anyway, and they are busily lifting loops Limerick Junction-Waterford now they have squeezed the timetable down to 1 service set.

westtip

dowlingm wrote: »

The first thing is the WRC was not rated against other national rail priorities. All of the WoT promotional material treated it as a standalone, parity of esteem project which the West (for whom they deemed they spoke) demanded.

.

Indeed this is the real problem - a small group claiming they speak for the west - its a few councillors with entrenched views on the Western Inter County railway committee.

This is a bit of a closed organisation - although a Inter county council committee try and get hold of the minutes of their meetings or a copy of a report they "commissioned" and presented in May to the committee which effectively has tried to kill off the greenway. Requests for information to the councils about this committee are met with stony silence and stonewall tactics. If perhaps a few more people made the requests for such information they might wake up.

islanddoc

Donegal has no commuter railway lines. It never will because of its population and geography. There are some beautifully located old lines well suited for tourism development as greenways and probably little else. The solution to the west's public transport deficit is an efficient and subsidised rural bus service linking to inter-city ( sic) services bearing in mind there is barely a city on the west coast until you reach galway.
As much as we love trains they are best used for linking large urban centres and transporing large numbers within them. WOT f you could put as much energy into viable transport solutions we might just get one.

dowlingm

westtip - I don't believe that committee is actually official in nature - more of a self-appointed thing. Happy to be proved wrong.

dermo88

Personally, over the years, my rather extreme language on this is now justified, purely by proof in the delivery of the product. This must now be tempered by engaging in a more moderate tone.

The railway is now there, for richer, for poorer. The question is, how can it be made more efficient, more competitive with road?

My views years ago, against its reconstruction and development were based on the fact that it could be abused as a means to prevent the further development of the rail network in areas truly of use.

Such as:

Dublin to Navan
The Interconnector
Luas expansion
Metro North

And more besides. But lets be polite and courteous, reasoned, moderate, logical.

Where appropriate.

NO.....its not appropriate NOW.

And sadly, it is at this point, that polite reasoned language has to go out the window, and that serious questions need to be asked?

Will those few on Irishrailwaynews , their names, "Father unknown" who banned me, and many others behave like men, hold their hands up, and admit that they were wrong?

Will those few on Irishrailwaynews allow an amnesty and allow us to debate freely on their site about this travesty?

Will they openly admit that their single track agenda for one railway in one region has been to the detriment of a nation?

My simple answer to that, my simple demand is:

Answers on a postcard please.

Even a private message will do.

Just that simple courtesy.

But......they do not have the balls to do so. They should stay away in the home counties, with their railway preservation societies, and get Lottery grants. Stay away, while the subsidies mount and add Euro upon mounting Euro to national debt in operational subsidies that remove barely a carbon fingernail from a carbon footprint. Stay away and consult with the Greeks on their screwed up rail network perhaps......(refer to countrywide mockery from years back). Stay away......

For they know nothing and less on how to get a railway.

My condemnation of CIE is equally vile. It is......that this was a railway designed, developed and built, with the intention to FAIL from day one.

*Note to moderators. I am quite happy to change any content you dislike here.

OurLadyofKnock

When I was in Platform11 one of the dears gleefully forwarded to me (from a UK IP no less) an email from the DoT saying that the WRC was to be opened. It was done in such a way as to show me who is boss.

They will never say they were wrong. It takes a man to do this.

Victor

dermo88 wrote: »

*Note to moderators. I am quite happy to change any content you dislike here.

I'm not enthusiastic about the discussion of other websites here.

DWCommuter

Victor wrote: »

I'm not enthusiastic about the discussion of other websites here.

In fairness, its only IRN and surely in the very real grand scheme of things, they are irrelevant in terms of being representative of whats actually happening. One could also say something similar about RUI. Of course I digress, but both sites have a completely bewildering viewpoint on the WRC. One still harbors a very romantic view of the ultimate realisation, while the other doesn't seem to know if the WRC actually exists or not. Overall, its very funny and hardly worth worrying about or even taking seriously. Life can continue. Its only a railway.

corktina

In my view, some of us should forget IRN and set up a new forum to do the things that Boards cannot do for us and do them better than IRN. Fttb I'm quite happy with boards train and rail systems, even if the name of it is very poor.

westtip

dowlingm wrote: »

westtip - I don't believe that committee is actually official in nature - more of a self-appointed thing. Happy to be proved wrong.

It is official all right and they claim expenses for meeting up every six weeks or so you can be dam sure of that, but they won't release their minutes and won't let you know if non elected self interest groups are allowed on the committee. Its all part of the cosy cartel that has made the WRC part of the career portfolio on the council. I am not sure what they talk about - I think the main focus of the committee now is to "stop the greenway" at all costs. They would rather see futher encroachment, more weeds and northing done to the alignment than see anything useful done that will actually help the communities along the line - its called spite.

dowlingm

westtip wrote: »

It is official all right and they claim expenses for meeting up every six weeks or so you can be dam sure of that, but they won't release their minutes and won't let you know if non elected self interest groups are allowed on the committee.

Interesting. Maybe it could be FOIable after all...

westtip

dowlingm wrote: »

Interesting. Maybe it could be FOIable after all...

I think it probably is.

trail man

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqDzGXTYXyc>


an interesting clip of footage of the north kerrry line before liifting 3yrs later..now see www.southerntrail.net for todays view..
could it be like this for the western rail corridor in years to come..???..

westtip

trail man wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqDzGXTYXyc>


an interesting clip of footage of the north kerrry line before liifting 3yrs later..now see www.southerntrail.net for todays view..
could it be like this for the western rail corridor in years to come..???..

Well at least we know more people would use it than are currently using the ennis athenry section - this is pretty much the only option the country can now afford, but we all know we have to wait for an Octogenerian priest to take the last train before anything will happen.

DWCommuter

End of thread.

westtip

westtip wrote: »

Indeedie, thinking about it, settling at about 35,000 passenger journies per annum on the ennis athenry route - which covers the "intercity" through passengers, to get to the desired business case numbers, the volome of passengers has to grow by just under 200%....ahem in an economy that is shrinking, losing population through emigration, and in an area of the country in which car dependency is increasing. Of course what we haven't seen is just what proportion of the passenger numbers are freebie social welfare tickets, if we say 20% we are down to under 30,000 fare paying passenger journies per annum. The FG/Labour programme for Govt had the extension north of Athenry down as one to undergo cost/benefit analysis.

Isn't it about time Government got off the pot on this one? and tell WOT the unsavoury truth. I reckon what we might see in the new NDP is the foreever painful holding operation on this one, sure it will happen but we just can't say when. WOT will accept their medicine in the "national interest" and make a press release along the lines of "whilst we are disappointed we are delighted that the WRC remains on the long term strategic objective and we will continue to campaign for this vital piece of infrastucture which now we have assurances from Government that it will happen eventually we are pleased to secure this committment etc etc"

The members of various councils and WOT hangers on will continue to attend western intercounty railway development committees - with the main item on the agenda always being spite: The greenway must be stopped at all costs even though we know the railway will never happen....and the second item being expenses payable to the Western intercounty railway committee.

Nothing will happen because doing nothing allows the government to promise everything - but actually deliver on nothing. Such is the nature of our democratic system.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1110/infrastructure.pdf

FROM PAGE 19 Funding is provided for Kishogue and Hansfield Stations and both Crusheen and Oranmore Stations on the Western Rail Corridor, the next phase of which is also deferred for consideration in 2015 in advance of the next Public Capital Programme.

As I confidently predicted the fudge remains the solution. No doubt the WOT PR machine will be sending out the bleating message of accepting the decision but delighted it remains on the agenda. 2015 before a decision. Only in Ireland do we have such weak minded polticians

foggy_lad

DWCommuter wrote: »

End of thread the line.

FYP:D

Judgement Day

As long as Claremorris/Collooney goes ahead and not forgetting the new line to Donegal.

corktina

westtip wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1110/infrastructure.pdf



As I confidently predicted the fudge remains the solution. No doubt the WOT PR machine will be sending out the bleating message of accepting the decision but delighted it remains on the agenda. 2015 before a decision. Only in Ireland do we have such weak minded polticians

After the next election perhaps? SEP...:D

headmaster

Well that's that then so, the west's fcuked now and so is Kenny and c/o.