Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip

What about the dining car? I hear they serve a good chablis.

DWCommuter

The WRC, MN and DU are now the most volatile rail subjects in Ireland. For nigh on 7 years they have been debated to death. However we must face the reality of the following (which was well documented).

1. The WRC is a failure except in the eyes of WOT and the subservient whores that are CIE. (Despite their own paymaster not giving a flying fiddlers about it) The CIE defense is based on the age old practice of being nothing more that a colloquial mindset of regional managers that would die to save or reopen some antiquated piece of crap. Like Irish politics, its not about the national interest, it about the local interest. The WRC debacle afforded West of Ireland CIE heads the opportunity to throw shapes locally. They band wagoned the WOT campaign pure and simple. It was like a throwback to the closures of the 60s and a subsequent revolt when they tasted the blood of a potential reopening. Common sense went out the window. Thank feck the West Cork lines weren't in the frame, because we may have seen blood on the streets of Cork.:D

2. MN and DU are dead. The Rosslare - Waterford route is dead. Not necessarily because of the WRC, but there is no doubt that the WRC has played a role. In relation to the Rosslare - Waterford route it was down to basic economics. WRC requires a subsidy, so close a loss maker to cover it.
MN and DU were beyond the comprehension of a predominantly rural political make up. Urban dwellers have lots more to worry about so don't shout loudly enough and they don't count as nearly as important to a rural politician or wannabe politician. Therefore the emphasis is on the wildly publicised WRC and it soaks up and saps the life out of more important projects via a very well established west of Ireland political begging bowl. It may have only cost 100 odd million, but it sucked the life and focus out of the real rail need that the country had. That's the PR political system for you. Now we are broke and all the thought and focus has been drained away for a line that was cheap to do and cheaper than what was more important.

In closing, I would strongly recommend that anyone opposed to the WRC, let your anger go and move on. I have experienced that path to freedom, no matter what happens. I don't need to post WOT press releases, because reading them is a personal funny moment. They are as they have always been and will never change. I'm confidant enough to appreciate that somewhere this Summer, someone who made their Holy Communion will take up this bonkers fight in the future. **** is always hard to get off your shoe, but we have to accept it.

westtip

Jaysus Derek Ihave just come in from the pub too!! but agree with it all.

corktina

westtip wrote: »

What about the dining car? I hear they serve a good chablis.

Chablis with poultry? :cool:

Nicely written DeeDubyah

Zoney

DWCommuter, I regard bringing the subject of MN and DU into discussion on WRC to be absolutely nonsensical, despite it seeming to be virtually a C&T meme at this stage. Both projects were an order of magnitude (at least) more than Ennis-Athenry, a relatively minor project. There is only one group of people you need to blame for MN and DU not happening (the country not being in a state to undertake practically anything) and fortunately only 19 of them remain in Dáil Éireann.

I'm sure the reports of almost empty trains are quite amusing for some commentators here, but the sad state of affairs is that this is not unusual right now across public transport (especially rail), including major routes at some times of day.

I personally have been on Limerick-Galway trains that were more than half-full outside peak times (can only presume peak services are more full). I can unfortunately report that I have been on less full direct services between Limerick and Dublin outside peak hours. Now I will certainly agree that some of the traffic on Limerick-Galway at the moment is seasonal, but I think that a lot of posters here have limited experience in actually using the service.

To balance my positive views, I'll have to relate an incident that wasn't so great, where travelling back not very late (after 6pm) from Galway to Limerick, some other passengers and I were less than impressed with a scheduled stop-over of more than an hour in Ennis! (actually ended up being a bit less as the train stopped in Gort for some time without any explanatory announcement until the train was moving - held up by a Limerick-Galway train ahead).

It still beats travelling by bus - I cannot understand why anyone would want to be crammed onto a bus.

westtip

Zoney wrote: »

It still beats travelling by bus - I cannot understand why anyone would want to be crammed onto a bus.

But Zoney .... this is no apparent reason to rebuild our rural rail network and will hardly be the saving grace of the rest of the WRC.

It will be much nicer to travel by train from Tuam to Galway ergo we will re-open the rail line?

I agree, anecdotal reports are not fact, however the passenger figures released by IR were we presume factually correct, and the average number of people taking the through route from Galway/Limerick and using the corridor are hardly a ringing endorsement for the project; and the success and proof of usage of phase one - will form part of the thinking about phase 2.

Re the pleasantness of travelling by train ah yes it is somewhat more comfortable - but it takes almost twice the time of the bus, and the bus service is more regular and cheaper. And its not as if you are "crammed" into a bus these days which are much more comfortable than they ever used to be.

DWCommuter

Zoney wrote: »

DWCommuter, I regard bringing the subject of MN and DU into discussion on WRC to be absolutely nonsensical, despite it seeming to be virtually a C&T meme at this stage. Both projects were an order of magnitude (at least) more than Ennis-Athenry, a relatively minor project. There is only one group of people you need to blame for MN and DU not happening (the country not being in a state to undertake practically anything) and fortunately only 19 of them remain in Dáil Éireann.

I'm sure the reports of almost empty trains are quite amusing for some commentators here, but the sad state of affairs is that this is not unusual right now across public transport (especially rail), including major routes at some times of day.

I personally have been on Limerick-Galway trains that were more than half-full outside peak times (can only presume peak services are more full). I can unfortunately report that I have been on less full direct services between Limerick and Dublin outside peak hours. Now I will certainly agree that some of the traffic on Limerick-Galway at the moment is seasonal, but I think that a lot of posters here have limited experience in actually using the service.

To balance my positive views, I'll have to relate an incident that wasn't so great, where travelling back not very late (after 6pm) from Galway to Limerick, some other passengers and I were less than impressed with a scheduled stop-over of more than an hour in Ennis! (actually ended up being a bit less as the train stopped in Gort for some time without any explanatory announcement until the train was moving - held up by a Limerick-Galway train ahead).

It still beats travelling by bus - I cannot understand why anyone would want to be crammed onto a bus.

Zoney

I have no wish to get embroiled in any long winded debate with you. However, I stand over my comments. The supposed minor project that became Ennis - Athenry, was part and parcel a WRC campaign thing. There is no doubt that the WRC became a media/political dead weight that drew focus away from what the Government should have been doing. It is certainly not nonsensical and only remains nonsensical in the world of the enthusiast.

Unfortunately, placing blame for the lack of DU or MN at the feet of the "remaining" 19, is only half the story. All political parties supported the reopening of the WRC and herein lies the problem. When you have a political establishment committed to it, you must ask the question, "what is the agenda?" We all should know that the agenda was votes and nothing more. The concept of prioritised expenditure on public transport infrastructure went out the window, once the WRC campaign was ignited. Due to the well established begging bowl insecurity complex that exists in the west of Ireland, the WRC was able to feed off the media via western born journalists in western printed media and western born people in the national media. RTE ran more stories about the WRC than they ever did about MN or DU. This is so very wrong for so many reasons.

Once a media campaign has been established, the thrust of a project can be assisted. We must wake up to the fact that cheap little projects that appease the rural electorate, (and are promoted by the media ad nauseum) can damage the bigger, more urge projects.

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

Zoney

All political parties supported the reopening of the WRC and herein lies the problem. When you have a political establishment committed to it, you must ask the question, "what is the agenda?" We all should know that the agenda was votes and nothing more. .

Indeed Derek the problem is systematic, and it's a problem of our parish pump attitude. No politican in the west, of any persuasion, was ever going to stand up and say I don't think this is a good idea (the WRC) - because actually we don't need it. Because he would get accused of not doing his best for the west, of course talk to many of them in private and they would say - in reality its a bit of a non runner but they never stick their head above the parapet and say no its not needed but something else is needed, and give an alternative view. Its just the way we are.

mgmt

Western Rail Corridor completion essential- O’Brien dismisses greenway claim

MAYO ADVERTISER, JULY 15, 2011.

Fine Gael Cllr Patsy O’Brien this week has dismissed claims that rather than opening up the Claremorris to Colloney section of the Western Rail Corridor it should be opened as a greenway walk and cycle route.

“There has recently been some talk of taking over the section from Claremorris to Colloney and converting it into a greenway and suggestions that this would represent a better option than bringing it back into use as a major piece of national infrastructure, but I believe it would be a major mistake”, said the councillor.

While he recognises that the Newport to Achill greenway has been an outstanding success, O’Brien believes that it it’s a completely different proposition to the Claremorris to Colloney line. “We all welcome the success of the new greenway from Newport to Achill where the route of the former railway, which was closed and taken up in the 1930s, has become a popular walking and cycling path. However, there is one major difference between that project and the northern section of the Western Rail Corridor from Claremorris to Colloney, and that is the fact that this particular railway still exists, and offers the possibility of being reopened as a rail route in the medium term.”

O’Brien also dismissed the suggestion that a greenway could be opened along the route and keep the rail line protected alongside it. He said, “It has been suggested that the railway could be protected and a greenway run alongside it, but speaking of as a railway man, with long years of experience in such matters, I can tell you the alignment from Claremorris to Colloney is very different and that large sections of it would be completely unsuitable for such a scheme. The truth of the matter is that the only viable way of establishing a greenway on that route would be to lift the railway and run it along the actual permanent way.”

The Claremorris area councillor went on to call for people to look at the medium to long tern rather than the short term. “While the re-opening of the Claremorris-Colloney section of the Western Rail Corridor may not appear imminent, we must not allow a sense of short tern gain and ‘ad-hocery’ to take from the fact that the circumstances could change very rapidly.”

Patsy O'Brien:

corktina

He's a fairly ignorant "railway man" if he thinks you can "lift the railway and run it along the actual permanent way.”

The track itself IS the Permanent Way as opposed to temporary tracks laid whilst building the line. He means the Trackbed.

May it please God that circumstances DO change very quickly, however I dont think that we will have finance for projects of such little use as this (and at such huge cost both in construction and subsidy of losses) for many generations.

Smell the coffee, as a vote-gaining exercise, this is a loser. Most People of the West are not stupid, and can see for themselves how much of our money has already been wasted on the WRC.

DWCommuter

Its unfortunate that the likes of Patsy O'Brien is content to leave the rusted rail symbolism in the ground rather than be realistic about the engineering, viability and economic issues associated with this stretch of line.

He is a blatant example of what I referred to in my earlier post.

The CIE defense is based on the age old practice of being nothing more that a colloquial mindset of regional managers that would die to save or reopen some antiquated piece of crap.

The WRC debacle afforded West of Ireland CIE heads the opportunity to throw shapes locally. They band wagoned the WOT campaign pure and simple.

foggy_lad

DWCommuter wrote: »

Its unfortunate that the likes of Patsy O'Brien is content to leave the rusted rail symbolism in the ground rather than be realistic about the engineering, viability and economic issues associated with this stretch of line.

He is a blatant example of what I referred to in my earlier post.

Ooooh i'm a railway man and so was my father before me and his father and grandfathers before him........and we will fight forever to preserve the railway just as it was way back then!

The major issue is that such people actually believe that lines that were around in 1900 will be viable today with just a little modernisation even though the centres of population have shifted as have the people's travel habits, also the lords and ladies for whom many of these lines were built have long since died or switched to the bently.

corktina

that line wasnt viable in 1900 either!

westtip

http://www.advertiser.ie/mayo/article/41907/western-rail-corridor-completion-essential-obrien-dismisses-greenway-claim


I am delighted to see this piece in the Mayo Advertiser, it shows the opposition to the Greenway (ie WOT) is having to do something they have never done - enter the airways and published media for debate, the FACT that sligo mayo greenway campaign on facebook has so many government TDs on board as friends of the campaign and dozens of councillors from around the country has woken them up. They describe the campaign as "ad hocery" and try to dismiss it with flippancy, but it is growing in support in the area - many many community groups have joined the campaign and I personally have written endorsements for the idea from businesses along the line, as said before - the line was never part of Transport 21 and the likes fo Patsy O'Brien would rather out of spite see it lie idle for the next 50 years than do something useful with it now. The idea has gathered in momentum and the likes of Patsy O'Brien and his cohorts have been surprised by the level of support it has got. It is now wonderful to see them making these statements in the press because people will weigh up the two ideas and I am confident which side they will come down on!

DWCommuter

corktina wrote: »

that line was wasn't viable in 1900 either!

Fixed that for you.;)

serfboard

Couple of interesting things from that Mayo Advertiser article.

Patsy O'Brien wrote:

We all welcome the success of the new greenway from Newport to Achill

Good man.

Patsy O'Brien wrote:

speaking of as a railway man

And therefore someone with absolutely no vested interest at all at all.

Patsy O'Brien wrote:

with long years of experience in such matters

Now, since passenger services on the route from Claremorris to Collooney came to an end in 1963, you can have absolutely no experience of running passenger services on this section of the line (unless you're at least 66 years old, and worked on it). Therefore, your experience doesn't count for jack.

Patsy O'Brien wrote:

I can tell you the alignment from Claremorris to Colloney is very different and that large sections of it would be completely unsuitable for such a scheme

The problem is Patsy, large sections of it (in fact, probably the whole line) are completely unsuitable as a train line either. At least, one that wants to go faster than a horse and cart.

westtip

Perhaps Patsy O'Brien the "Railway Man" never got to read the McCann report either:

Firstly when it was built in 1891-1892 the section was constructed as a light railway. If it were to be brought into the Irish Rail network the formation would have to be rebuilt to the national heavy rail standard. The second relates to the cost of necessary alterations to level crossings, of which there are a total of 290 along the section, two of which alone would cost €24m to create grade separations”

He also conveniently forgot to mention in his article that - no government has ever made a committment to Claremorris/Collooney not even the last shower....and I don't see his party in Government colleague Leo Varadkar clamouring to sign up to the idea.

I just cannot understand how the Western media swallow this kind of stuff. Nevertheless Mr. O'Brien has once again added grist to the mill and opened up the debate in local media - and the message is getting out there - they clearly see this now as an issue they have to fight, which means one thing and one thing only they are on the defensive. Which is good, the more West on Track and its cohorts knock the Greenway idea the more the idea gets debated and the more the idea of the railway gets questioned. Its all good stuff to be welcomed.

OurLadyofKnock

Never have I seen the CIE psychosis so entrenched in one individual in all my life.

In the following order:

1) A Dead Railway Will Can Look At the Weeds Growing on is Normal

2) Railways are an inter-generational welfare scheme and nothing else - any viability in terms of delivering public transport is an unfortunante side effect

3) Full of or more ****e than Mary O'Rourke's septic tank.

westtip

OLK it really is like something out of Thomas the Tank engine isn't it?

eastwest

I read the article by Colm Gannon regarding his interview (?) with Councillor Pasty O'Brien. I was still laughing this afternoon until I logged on here and realised that the bould Pasty wasn't actually joking!
Where on earth did Colm interview this guy? In the Dinosaur Petting zoo? Surely there is nobody left in the west who actually believes that this route is going to be put back as a railway line? Surely the councillor, being part of the party of government, is aware that the days of building railways to serve a few dozen people, and staffing them with a load of "are you right there, Michael" types who lean on gates all day and congratulate themselves on having achieved the holy grail of landing the proverbial "handy number" are over?
It won't happen, a mhac; take your head out of the sand and smell the coffee. There are just two options open with regards to the western rail corridor, and neither of them involve trains on tracks. One option is to let the weeds and brambles grow, and the other option is to make the asset work for its owners, the people of Ireland.
The greenway is an absolute no-brainer, as they say. Maybe that's the problem with Councillor O'Brien too.

westtip

Eastwest brilliant post!

dowlingm

westtip wrote: »

I just cannot understand how the Western media swallow this kind of stuff.

This is the base of it. West of the Shannon there seems to be no end of enthusiasm for B***n G*****ns press releases and Lewis Lesley's toy trains. It's a classic example of how paper never refused ink.

Neworder79

I've said it again and again on this thread, no one I know living in the West think it's a runner, even back in the boom days most said it was fantasy. The local reps have to know this, they seem to be scared that challenging this lobby, think it's time Kenny put it to bed.

OurLadyofKnock

Neworder79 wrote: »

I've said it again and again on this thread, no one I know living in the West think it's a runner, even back in the boom days most said it was fantasy. The local reps have to know this, they seem to be scared that challenging this lobby, think it's time Kenny put it to bed.

The track is literally at the end of my garden. Nobody I know care one iota about it. They have been building driveways and tarmacing over it for years and this even got ramped up AFTER the formation of West-on-Track.

The answer is simple like in every country journalist scum and the goverment scum are the same thing. Both work for each other to socially engineer us towards certain agendas. Neither represents the view of the population. But this does not matter - the agenda even when it flies in the face of reality will be the culture which is created from the malignant coagulation of newspapers and gombeens.

Judgement Day

Could the Burma Road be rebuilt to the Narra gauge? That way all westtip's ginger beer loving, bearded Woodstock hippies could walk alongside the railway and I could get my northbound trip in before the inevitable closure. Oh, oh here comes nursey with my medication.

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

Could the Burma Road be rebuilt to the Narra gauge? That way all westtip's ginger beer loving, bearded Woodstock hippies could walk alongside the railway and I could get my northbound trip in before the inevitable closure. Oh, oh here comes nursey with my medication.

LOL:D:D:D

Neworder79

Gov should suggest a WRC PPP stimulus plan with much fanfare. Win Win strategy... look like your backing the project, then knife it with Midwest Radio coverage of investors rolling round the DOT floor choking up their lattes.

westtip

The more influential Western People has entered the "debate" about Railway versus Greenway again with verbatim extract of Cllr Patsy O'Briens comments last week posing as an article in the Western today. The Western is subscription only on its website so you can't lift and paste articles so I have transcribed it for folks here, it would have a more widespread and my guess is more influential readership than the Mayo Advertiser, it is pretty much a repeat of the article in the Mayo Advertiser last week - which surprised me as the Western is following the free advertiser with an article so in some respect it is old news, however as said below it does show that WOT have come out of their shell holes to make a case and try and stop the Greenway at all costs - as we all know this section of line has never been on the agenda and stop the Greenway now seems more important to some than giving Sligo and Mayo a facility that will create jobs, improve the environments and generally add to the peoples well being.

Article in the Western People

July 26th 2011-07-26
Converting track to a greenway would be a “major mistake”
BY CRONA ESLER

Attempts to convert the Claremorris to Collooney railway line into a greenway should be vehemently resisted, according to a south Mayo councillor. In recent months, there has been some talk and debate about the development of a greenway along the track, but Fine Gael Cllr Patsy O’Brien believes this would be “a major mistake”

The first phase of the Western Rail Corridor opened in March 2010, linking Galway and Limerick for the first time in three decades. Since then the performance of this line has been lauded. In June, Iarnrod Eireann announced that 252,000 passengers had travelled on the services along the line over the previous 12 months; additional services had been added, and that two new stations are to be opened – one a major commuter station at Oranmore.

Cllr O’Brien has many years experience working with Iarnrod Eireann and one would have to assume he is best placed to know what will work and what won’t. “We all welcome the success of the greenway from Newport to Achill, where the route of the former railway has become a popular walking and cycling path. However there is one major difference between that line and the northern section of the Western Rail Corridor from Claremorris to Collooney – the fact that this particular railway still exists and offers the possibility of being reopened as a rail route” he reasoned.

Speaking to the Western People, Cllr O’Brien said there has been the suggestion that converting this section to a greenway would represent a better option than bringing it back into use as a major piece of national infrastructure. In addition, he noted it had also been suggested that the railway could be protected and a greenway run alongside it.
“Speaking as a railway man, with many years of experience in such matters, let me tell you that the alignment from Claremorris to Collooney is very different. Large sections of it would be completely unsuitable for such a scheme. The truth is that the only way of establishing a greenway on that route would be to lift the railway. This would be a grave mistake because the inevitable result of such a short sighted move would be that the line would never be reopened” warned Cllr O’Brien.

Continuing, he argued, that walk and cycle roads can be developed anywhere, whether through woods owned by Coillte or as a project next to a new road.
“There are plenty opportunities to develop such routes without destroying a railway line”
The Western Inter-County Railway committee has also rejected the attempt to jeopardise the future potential of the railway.
“While opening of this section may not appear imminent, we must not lose sight of the importance of this line. The recovery of this country, and in particular the west, will hinge on infrastructure and tourism, among other things. Clearly, the development of good road and rail links throughout out region will be essential to that recovery” concluded Cllr O’Brien”

It is the usual hilarious stuff, again referencing the quarter of a million users between Limerick and Galway (when the actual figure making the through journey is abou 50,000.) and all the usual WOT propaganda. There are pluses and minuses on this article - the plus side is the fact the Western has printed it means the idea of the Greenway is going to be thought about by a lot more people - and they may through reasoned thinking respond to this councillor and say ...well actually we think its quite a good idea. The debate for the first time is being debated - something that has been avoided till now. The downside is the fact the western would publish these views seemingly withour questioning anythign the councillor has said, this is what needs to be challenged at editorial level. It is in essence a report of what a councillor said at some meeting- but now we want to see a public reaction.

corktina

no publicity is bad publicity...the more they dig, the deeper the WRC hole gets.

westtip

corky I asm inclined to agree with you - Leo V will be listening to Irish Rail when it comes to passenger numbers (ie the broken down numbers which IR released), he will listen to the cost benefit analysis they will do, and he will read the McCann report.

Putting the choice in front of people in the main western media does open up peoples minds and there are a lot of people in the west now saying hold on a minute - whats more likely to happen - the greenway or the railway - also having Enda Kenny on side as having publically backed the greenway is a bit of a trump card...:D