Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

rainbowdash

glineli wrote: »

I am not too sure what time you pass the junction, but i think you must be just missing any joining cars. I live in Crusheen, use the M18 everyday to galway, and i see quite a lot of other cars using it.

The M18 north of barefield is deserted any time I travel it, so I can't image Crusheen providing many cars for it.

bk

Yup, dug up the figures.

In 2009 Irish Rail carried 38.8 million passengers with 4679 staff, so 8,292 passengers per staff.

In 2007 Bus Eireann carried 96 million passengers with 2784 staff, so 34,482 passengers per staff.

So BE is about 4 times more efficient then IR.

And you should take into consideration, IR numbers include mass transit services like DART and commuter rail. While BE includes city services in Cork, etc.

I'd imagine private coach operators would be even more efficient.

BTW I'm shocked that the BE 2009 annual report doesn't include the number of passengers carried!!! Hello, basic important information.

D'Peoples Voice

MayoForSam wrote: »

:rolleyes: Taken from today's Mayo News: http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12956:the-western-rail-corridor-and-the-national-press&catid=81:defacto&Itemid=100038

As an Irish citizen living west of the Shannon, in this instance I have to side with common sense i.e. the "national organs of the fourth estate" and not the local mouth-piece.

The doomsayers and futile word merchants coated in Dublin 4

The Irish Times offices are in The Irish Times Building, PO BOX 74, 24-28 Tara Street,Dublin 2

For some strange reason the notion of re-opening the Western Rail Corridor from Sligo to Limerick rankles with some people

not that strange really, people from Drogheda and beyond, Leixleip and beyond, Newbridge and beyond just hate being crushed into train carriages because of lack of funding to fund additional services yet money can be squandered on under-utilised services.

some of the national organs of the fourth estate are most negative towards their ‘country cousins.’

that paper is writing about spending money on white elephants at a time when the rural transport programme is being starved of resources, when bus eireann are cutting their services to rural areas

Iarnród Éireann does not break up the line like some of the national media and concentrate on figures from Ennis to Athenry.

I would hope they did, its called making an investment decision using NPV or IRR on an incremental expenditure, in other words, how much return would we get for this investment joining up the two existing lines.

Imagine Iarnród Éireann stating that the Westport to Ballyhaunis passenger figures are not meeting expectations or Tullamore to Portalington figures are not standing up. It does not make sense to think in those terms yet some media outlets persist in doing so.

I know it would be a first for you to think in terms of economic benefits versus opportunity cost of that investment. Perhaps you should read about the thinking that is going on into the Luas link-up between Stephens Green and Abbey Street. Are we seriously not going to question the numbers of additional passengers that will yield - just take the total figures of going from Brides Glen to Tallaght.

“Bizarrely, although the services provided run from Galway to Limerick those travelling outside of the newly-constructed Ennis-Limerick section are not counted as passengers.

not that bizarre, when i drive from O'Connell street to Drumcondra via Dorset street I'm not counted as using the new M1 to Belfast, maybe thats becasue the N1 was there a long time before the M1 and the construction of the M1 didn't affect my journey.

Remember that €7,500 million has been set aside for rail projects in Dublin.

Strange, how he doesn't specify on what projects or more importantly if they are white elephants.

Phases 2 and 3 of the Western Rail Corridor can be completed for the cost of 100 metres of the Dublin underground Dart!

but would those phases pay back the money as quickly as the 100 metres of the Dublin underground?
Also, how much of the double tracking could be built between Galway city and Athenry for the cost of Phases 2 and 3?

glineli

westtip wrote: »

and will you switch to the train when you get a station?

I probably will. Mind you, i dont see monthly tickets available just yet so we will see.

And before anyone says it, i aint saying its right that Crusheen got a stop just so i can use it. I am delighted we have a stop, but does a population of 377 really merit a station?

glineli

rainbowdash wrote: »

The M18 north of barefield is deserted any time I travel it, so I can't image Crusheen providing many cars for it.

The whole M18 has got a lot quieter the last few months. I go from Crusheen to Newmarket quite a lot and the road is never too busy, bar a sunday evening.

westtip

glineli wrote: »

I probably will.

every day? as your regular commute or just an occasional user? what kind of demand do you think it will get locally? What will the travel time from crusheen to Galway be compared with car to your workplace? what will the additonal cost be? I assume you will keep your car and use the train as an additional travel expense - you see this is the crux of the matter - people won't give up their cars in the west of ireland and they say I have a car paid for - I am going to use it - using the train has to be competitive with the petrol/diesel costs and savings on wear and tear, plus the fact the service levels have to match the convenience.
so what will it be Glineli? Car most days, train a few days a month, car if its raining or need to get somewhere else after work etc. I guess its a lifestyle decision - just interested to see what you think. You see I think people campaigned for the railline and then when they get rural train service, service levels and they cannot realistically expect urban commuting services they say - its all well and good having the train but......and this is why the WRC and most attempts at providing rural train services fail - because we want our cake and want to eat it.

corktina

well thats the crux with all Public Transport. To get people out of their cars and on to buses and Trains you would need to have free or VERY cheap travel.
Even then people will still think "well Ive paid for my road tax /insurance etc, so I may as well use it" Perhaps this is an arguement for adding these costs to fuel costs, which Im not particularly in favour of.

Sad to say, at some point we will have to radically reduce our car useage.

glineli

westtip wrote: »

every day? as your regular commute or just an occasional user? what kind of demand do you think it will get locally? What will the travel time from crusheen to Galway be compared with car to your workplace? what will the additonal cost be? I assume you will keep your car and use the train as an additional travel expense - you see this is the crux of the matter - people won't give up their cars in the west of ireland and they say I have a car paid for - I am going to use it - using the train has to be competitive with the petrol/diesel costs and savings on wear and tear, plus the fact the service levels have to match the convenience.
so what will it be Glineli? Car most days, train a few days a month, car if its raining or need to get somewhere else after work etc. I guess its a lifestyle decision - just interested to see what you think. You see I think people campaigned for the railline and then when they get rural train service, service levels and they cannot realistically expect urban commuting services they say - its all well and good having the train but......and this is why the WRC and most attempts at providing rural train services fail - because we want our cake and want to eat it.

All good questions. By using public transport i can expense the majority of the costs, so happy days with the price of diesel rising.
Commute time will be probably 20 minutes longer, however i can do more work while on the train so i will get more done.

Demand locally, i would say very very low. Maybe on a saturday it might be a little higher, but i cant see it being very high.

For Oranmore station, is there a park and ride planned?

westtip

corktina wrote: »

Sad to say, at some point we will have to radically reduce our car useage.

Agree with some of your points, but Corky, how can reliance on cars be reduced in the west of Ireland - the very same people who would argue we have a right to a one off house will campaign for things like the WRC. The dispersed housing patterns are established and they are only suitable to one form of transport - one of the major issues re the WRC is this fact, people in the west have proven with the numbers they are not using the rail corridor that they really don't care about the train service.

westtip

glineli wrote: »

Demand locally, i would say very very low. Maybe on a saturday it might be a little higher, but i cant see it being very high.

Well Glineli - this is what we haver all been saying about this rather well meaning bunch of people campaigning for this thing - that to put it simply the demand just isn't there and this has been proven in the figures - only 50,000 people per annun on the through route - the corridor - connecting the wests two largest cities - picking up a few passengers along the way - and you as a local near one of the prposed new stations on the line are using phrases like demand will be "very very low" for what its worth, and I know West on Track read this thread - the arguments have failed miserably - Popping in a station in Crusheen is just going to slow the overall journey down and make the service available for a handful more people, and the uptake is going to be meaningless in the overall numbers using the through route: the promotional prices for point to point intercity travel barely compete with the much faster more frequent and probably more convenient bus service. The project has fallen flat on its face no matter which way you look at it.....At least Leo Varadkar isn't (I hope) in the pocket of the usual western mafia and will be his own man and make his own decisions for the good of the rest of the country. By the way Ginelli - let me put this to you - if the track had a greenway way running parallel with it do you think that would boost the crusheen economy more? I think they shoudl have stuck a parallel greenway in alongside the WRC, had they done this it could have significantly improved performance, of course West on Track could not or would not see the potential this addition to the resource would have made. Its all about vision you know.

Now here is todays intriguing questions - if the link established between the wests two major cities can only provide 50,000 extra passengers on the corridor per annum as through passengers from one city to the other, what kind of numbers do you think will be put in the business case to justify Tuam - Athenry and Claremorris- Tuam - Athenry (phase2 and phase 3)

The second question - Is it the consensus now of most people on this forum that WRC northern branch line is now a dead duck, and is there anyone out there who can seriously build a case for phase 2 and phase 3.

The third question is - Does west on track actually have any influence anymore?

glineli

westtip wrote: »

By the way Ginelli - let me put this to you - if the track had a greenway way running parallel with it do you think that would boost the crusheen economy more? I think they shoudl have stuck a parallel greenway in alongside the WRC, had they done this it could have significantly improved performance, of course West on Track could not or would not see the potential this addition to the resource would have made. Its all about vision you know.

When you see what it has done for north Mayo, it was a missed opportunity. I think it was you westtip that first mentioned this a long time ago. Its a shame the WonT people that read this forum didnt take it on board.

Would that work be even possible now?

Of course it only opinion on the update of the service, maybe i will be proved wrong but i just cant see a massive update on it.

westtip

glineli wrote: »

When you see what it has done for north Mayo, it was a missed opportunity. I think it was you westtip that first mentioned this a long time ago. Its a shame the WonT people that read this forum didnt take it on board.

Would that work be even possible now?

Of course it only opinion on the update of the service, maybe i will be proved wrong but i just cant see a massive update on it.

Thanks for your comments - lets just put it this way, West on Track have little grasp of the real world and very little imagination when it comes to what is actually needed in the west of ireland.

I just had a trawl of their website this lunchtime looking at one or two of their highly entertaining press releases I picked out this little gem from july 20th 2009:

The Western Rail Corridor has already created 400 jobs in the construction phase and will deliver many thousands of jobs in private sector companies, once operational.

http://www.westontrack.com/news207.htm this particular one was the usual tirade against Dublin 4 economists like colm mcarthy.

Yes of course there were jobs in the construction phases - perhaps a few private sector companies could come on this forum and tell us about the "thousands of jobs" it has delivered. One thing we do know it hasn't delivered thousands of passengers (well at least not 100,000 as predicted).

CrowdedHouse

They might get more passengers if they ran a steam train or some other old locos(and a greenway) between Ennis and Athenry and promoted it as a tourist attraction

westtip

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

They might get more passengers if they ran a steam train or some other old locos(and a greenway) between Ennis and Athenry and promoted it as a tourist attraction

Yes there are opportunities to do this but you don't go building new infrastructure as a theme park for steam enthusiasts.

corktina

westtip wrote: »

Agree with some of your points, but Corky, how can reliance on cars be reduced in the west of Ireland - the very same people who would argue we have a right to a one off house will campaign for things like the WRC. The dispersed housing patterns are established and they are only suitable to one form of transport - one of the major issues re the WRC is this fact, people in the west have proven with the numbers they are not using the rail corridor that they really don't care about the train service.

ah sure cant all the ones not living by the WRC move easht of the Shannon and that will solve that one. I wasnt advocating less car use but its a fact we waste a lot of resources on unnecessary journies.SO I profisise (?) more punitive taxes on fuel and lower spedd limits.

corktina

I think WoT are missing a trick in opposing a Greenway. Were this to be built in paralell with the railway alignment it actually would make the railway more viable to construct.

And Steam trains? well Im all for that but there is a lack of actual locos (they are mostly "up north") and a lack of volunteers to run it. So what you are actually proposing is a non-accurate line run on a commercial basis using probably UK Industrial or continental locos and probably foreign rolling stock which will need to converting to our ludicrous gauge (or the line laid as Standard Guage or possibly narrow guage á lá welsh Highland Rly)).

westtip

corktina wrote: »

I think WoT are missing a trick in opposing a Greenway. Were this to be built in paralell with the railway alignment it actually would make the railway more viable to construct.
)).

I said this ages ago to them but they are so bloody fixated on delivering the vital piece of infrastructure for the west (ha bloody ha), they cannot see beyond anything with their tunnel vision, anyway they are going to get a rude awakening in the revised spending plans their chums in FF throwing good money after bad are long gone. Of course out of pure bloody spite they will do everything to block a greenway even on the northern section to keep hold of their lifelong dream. Thats wot we are dealing with.

corktina

their reason for opposing the Greenway in that clearances at certain places would be too tight are bankrupt in that the Greenway can easily deviate from the original route to around tight bridges etc at the cost of a cyclist have to pedal a little harder, which I doubt they would mind. The greenway could also go around encroaching properties, car showrooms et al which the Railway cannot easily do!

westtip

corktina wrote: »

their reason for opposing the Greenway in that clearances at certain places would be too tight are bankrupt in that the Greenway can easily deviate from the original route to around tight bridges etc at the cost of a cyclist have to pedal a little harder, which I doubt they would mind. The greenway could also go around encroaching properties, car showrooms et al which the Railway cannot easily do!

You mean like Sustrans suggest in this document, IE should look at this document if they read this thread - which I understand they do and look at the massive opportunities there are to create more usage of railway lands by putting in greenways that people cycle one way and train the other:

By the way as a matter of observation, Sustrans is an organisation people welcome in the UK they get involved in Sustrans projects and they fund raise to help build greenways, why is this I wonder - because the great latent majority of people actually want these kind of facilities - and this is why my sligomayogreenway will happen - because the people of sligo want it to happen.

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/assets/files/connect2/guidelines%206.pdf

have put this link up before but as ever on these boards a lot of the information repeated is to make sure West on Track are still aware of the knawing annoyance that this information is continuing to be put in the public domain.

shamwari

Westtip, how much cycling do you do?

corktina

sustrans have had run in with a few steam railways in the UK but an accomodation seems always rto be made to facilate both rival uses of the old railway line. No reason why that cant happen here. (except the big WoT reason of course)

dowlingm

bk wrote: »

Yup, dug up the figures.

In 2009 Irish Rail carried 38.8 million passengers with 4679 staff, so 8,292 passengers per staff.

In 2007 Bus Eireann carried 96 million passengers with 2784 staff, so 34,482 passengers per staff.

So BE is about 4 times more efficient then IR.

How many BE staff work on roads and bridges? Also: 2009 was Malahide Viaduct year so they probably took a big hit then, as well as the recession biting.

As a result of the economic recession, passenger journeys fell by 5.9m from 44.7m in 2008 to 38.8m in 2009 representing a 13% reduction in passenger volume over the year

The 2007 figure was 45.5m, per that year's Report.

Additionally, if you want to compare journey lengths you need to use passenger-km as the measure, but I realise that a) CIE don't publish that and b) would you trust their counts if they did?

corktina

shamwari wrote: »

Westtip, how much cycling do you do?

Is that relevant? I dont do any but can still see the economics of the matter.

shamwari

corktina wrote: »

Is that relevant? I dont do any but can still see the economics of the matter.

My question is not a loaded one, and with the greatest of respect, was not asked of you.

I do a lot of cycling, taking part in several charity and sportif events every year. I clock up around 3000km annually between training and these events. I'm very keen to get a cyclists perspective of the greenway that is being advocated, not somebody that is anti-WRC.

corktina

im not a cyclist and nor am I anti-WRC or anything else except waste of my tax euro.

shamwari

corktina wrote: »

im not a cyclist and nor am I anti-WRC or anything else except waste of my tax euro.

That's fine and thanks for that. But it's a cyclists perspective I'm after

corktina

ah right...im off to buy a bike then...:D

westtip

shamwari wrote: »

Westtip, how much cycling do you do?

well I'm not sure of the relevance of this question however yes I do cycle, not as much as I would like to and I am not an avid road racer, I don't like cycling on irish roads (nor indeed roads in the UK) because its too bloody dangerous, I like "leisure" cycling and I have two small boys aged 6 and 8 who unfornately cannot enjoy the freedom of cycling along country lanes like I did in the 1960s growing up. I am an avid believer in the provision of greenways for leisure cycling because its just a nice way to get around - and in the case of the WRC northern section, for me anyway is a blindingly obvious good use of a publicilly owned facility, and using these old rural rail routes for greenways was something I saw make a huge difference to the leisure and activity tourism sector in the uk with the growth of greenways following the estalishment of Sustrans, although even as a child I was cycling with my parents along the Tissington Trail in Derbyshire before the phrase Greenway had been invented. take a look to see what I mean, this trail has been in place since 1971 and was one of the forerunnes of the whole greenway movement - we just happened to live near it when I was growing up.

http://www.derbyshire-peakdistrict.co.uk/tissingtontrail.htm

My passion for the Sligo mayo greenway is driven out of the need to have somewhere safe for my children to enjoy long distance tour cycling - and because like Corky and other I seriously do believe the western rail corridor arguments are seriously flawed, in terms of both economics and sociology, the WRC is not going to deliver a facility that will do the greatest good for the greatest number and certainly will not improve anything in the west of ireland, to any major degree - in fact I think the campaign is doing the west a great disservice because its driven out of arguments based on envy and does not address the real issues economically for the west - to drive our tourism and leisure industry forward we need to provide facilities our tourists actually want. A poor quality rural train service is not a priority.

does this answer your question: How much cycling do I do?

bk

dowlingm wrote: »

How many BE staff work on roads and bridges?

I knew someone would raise that point.

But as we would still have roads and need them to be maintained even if a single coach bus didn't exist, for road haulage and private car usage. This makes it an irrelevant point from the larger point of view of getting best value for our tax money.

The question is, if all intercity rail was closed down tomorrow, could we still do much the same without it and IMO the answer is yes.

On the other hand, if all roads were closed, could we still do the same with intercity rail? IMO the answer is no. There simply isn't the capacity to carry all the passengers and freight that our roads now carry.

So we will always need roads and their maintenance costs. So from a purely economic point of view you are getting economies of scale from roads that you just don't get from rail (in the context of intercity rail in Ireland, bigger distances abroad make it more feasible).

This actually strengthens the argument that we should be focusing on intercity coach services and reduce or even close intercity rail and redirect the money to commuter rail.

dowlingm wrote: »

Also: 2009 was Malahide Viaduct year so they probably took a big hit then, as well as the recession biting.
The 2007 figure was 45.5m, per that year's Report.

Only makes a fractional difference (less then 1%) to my figures so largely irrelevant.

As for the per km argument, aren't they much the same? intercity rail and BE intercity travel much the same distance. Yes BE would also include city services in cork, etc., but then the IR numbers include DART and commuter services. As you say the figures aren't available to us, but I'd imagine that they would more or less even out.

dowlingm

bk

I don't think it's greatly productive to contemplate the closure of the intercity network purely on the basis of employee/passenger or psgr-km ratios.

For instance, does Rosslare Europort count in IE total headcount? If so, these employees contribute nothing to incremental psgr/psgr-km numbers.

Limerick Junction-Waterford probably has a massive difference in psgr/employee numbers on the basis of both manned level crossings and the line closure on Sundays, one of the busiest days on the network elsewhere. (Incidentally despite adding service for the Tall Ships between Clonmel and Waterford, IE STILL intend to leave the line closed on the Sunday rather than find a few people to operate the crossings - can't be setting precedents, oh no)

As for buses - on most roads you're right that they would exist but the reality is that in cities, QBCs and bus lanes are semi-dedicated infrastructure and in Dublin buses are a very large proportion of vehicle movements on some mixed traffic streets.

Where I hope we would have common ground is that where true mass transit is justifiable - long trains, few stops, park and ride and feeder buses intensifying the catchment - we double down, improving signalling and tracks to allow more services with the same number of trains, drivers and signallers, adding halts where demand centres exist.

In the case of the WRC, there should have been Iarnrod Eireann buses operating between Ennis and Athenry timetabled to connect to Athlone-Galway or Athenry-Galway and Ennis-Limerick trains, with tickets. The boarding counts should have determined where stations were located and how soon the line needed to be commissioned or if feeder service was the medium/long term appropriate mode (this should be happening on Tuam-Athenry, Dunboyne-Navan and Midleton-Youghal as we speak).

But that would have caused problems because The Sister Company wouldn't have liked IE operating buses under its own banner and the West On Trackers wouldn't have liked pictures of bus stops with no-one beside them when they were trying to persuade government to drop 106m on, among other things, slathering tarmac on the ground in Ardrahan.