Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

CIE

tech2 wrote: »

The X51 bus service will now be going directly from Galway-Limerick. Cant wait to see what time it will take on the bus now.

Funny how the bus can run a direct service but they won't do it for the train. How much tax revenue do the roads get again?

westtip

CIE wrote: »

Funny how the bus can run a direct service but they won't do it for the train. How much tax revenue do the roads get again?

And how much tax is paid by road users: Vehicle tax, fuel excise, tolls, not to mention the motor industry equivalent of stamp duty - vehicle registration tax. Lets compare this with fare revenues and subvention of IE in total

Anyway you can't run a non stop service for the train: one word: Athenry Mind you how about non stop services Dublin Galway, the same argument versus express bus services is probably more important on this route

Had the Athenry bypass loop been built to make the southern branch line more reasible then yes you could have had an intercity express.

But you have a point - an express service, Limerick, Ennis, Athenry, should really form part of the mix.

BTW interesting to hear Eamon Gilmore on the Late late show saying he will have to accept the cuts that have/are going to be made by FF- and he specifically referred to the fact its no good having something cut back and then coming back saying we are going to build a railway line here or a hospital there just based on local issues

---

ahem I wonder what he was referring to.

dynamick

Labour's Manifesto for GE 2007
"Restore rail links between Ennis and Athenry as part of the Western Rail Corridor."

Labour never opposed the WRC or one-off housing.

westtip

dynamick wrote: »

Labour's Manifesto for GE 2007
"Restore rail links between Ennis and Athenry as part of the Western Rail Corridor."

Labour never opposed the WRC or one-off housing.

I don't acually see your point here? Anything said in the GE 2007 manifestos is now only good for shredding and baling up as bulk scrap to send to china. In any event the part you have highlighted has happened. I am not suggesting Labour FF or FG ever opposed the WRC they were all like muppets in this regard. My point was this - in a throw away line on a chat show - Gilmore was saying we will have to stick to the cuts made this December (actually he has no choice in this matter, because we won't have the money to go back to the crazy days of spending German money like water), and he was inferring in his reference to Railway lines and hospitals that we can't address the local issues of every TD backbencher or independent holding the balance of power. I only picked up on his comment about Railway lines and thought hello what was he thinking about in that reference- take your pick, WRC, Navan, Metro North, Rosslare port etc,

The WRC northern branch line is now a dead rubber. The financial position will not allow this kind of way down the list of national priority infrastructure projects to happen, it will need to much subvention to run and will therefore be a continuing drain - and the somewhat surprising beat on the street that the Tuam Gort road is actually going to go ahead. These three facts are what are known in politics as events - and events change the course of history.

invinciblePRSTV

dynamick wrote: »

Labour's Manifesto for GE 2007
"Restore rail links between Ennis and Athenry as part of the Western Rail Corridor."

Labour never opposed the WRC or one-off housing.

And neither did FG, in fact if you dig into either this thread or other WRC threads you'll find statements from Enda confirming his support for the entirety of the WRC to be opened.

westtip

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

And neither did FG, in fact if you dig into either this thread or other WRC threads you'll find statements from Enda confirming his support for the entirety of the WRC to be opened.

you'll find lots of statements in the past supporting the WRC from all the political parties I have no doubt about that - we live in a totally new world. I don't think the WRC northern section will be built for the reasons outlined two posts up. Gilmores off the cuff comment applied to the new future in which we are about to enter - about projects hither and tither that are local parish pump politics projects, the WRC is one of those. It won't happen now. We are broke and the Germans won't lend us the money for fanciful projects.

corktina

doubtful if the EU will allow us to waste any more money we dont have.

Transportuser09

westtip wrote: »

Mind you how about non stop services Dublin Galway, the same argument versus express bus services is probably more important on this route

Nice idea but would there be enough passengers from Galway alone to fill a three-car train? Maybe, just maybe it could be done in the morning into Dublin and likewise out of Dublin in the evening. But you would still need to keep the stopping trains to cater for other towns. In my opinion non/limited stop trains should be in addition to rather than replacing stopping services.

westtip

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Nice idea but would there be enough passengers from Galway alone to fill a three-car train? Maybe, just maybe it could be done in the morning into Dublin and likewise out of Dublin in the evening. But you would still need to keep the stopping trains to cater for other towns. In my opinion non/limited stop trains should be in addition to rather than replacing stopping services.

I think one stop at Athlone and express into dublin has merit on this line, there real needs to be a radical overhaul of the way IE operates - for eg on the Sligo line - could one train a day be an express stopping at say only three stops. There is the potential to have trains from the outer regions of the west that take only two and half hours into Dublin from terminal start. One thing is for sure they need to radically think things through to compete with inter-urban motorway coach speeds.

dynamick

The 0635 Galway-Dublin train stops just twice in Athenry and Athlone.

Scheduled time 2:15

KC61

There will have to be a recast of the Intercity timetable but that won't happen until the four-tracking from Hazelhatch to Inchicore is complete early in 2011.

That should then finally see expresses to Dublin in the morning complemented with evening expresses from Dublin.

The four track section will I understand be capable of 100mph running.

westtip

KC61 wrote: »

There will have to be a recast of the Intercity timetable but that won't happen until the four-tracking from Hazelhatch to Inchicore is complete early in 2011.

That should then finally see expresses to Dublin in the morning complemented with evening expresses from Dublin.

The four track section will I understand be capable of 100mph running.

Thats all good - and with reference to this thread the infamous WRC - this kind of rail investment is what the West needs fast speed services into Dublin not local branch lines trundling through the west at 25 mph. Wasn't aware of those express trains from Galway to Dublin.

CIE

Transportuser09 wrote: »

westtip wrote: »

Mind you how about non stop services Dublin Galway, the same argument versus express bus services is probably more important on this route

Nice idea but would there be enough passengers from Galway alone to fill a three-car train? Maybe, just maybe it could be done in the morning into Dublin and likewise out of Dublin in the evening. But you would still need to keep the stopping trains to cater for other towns. In my opinion non/limited stop trains should be in addition to rather than replacing stopping services.

GoBus seems to think that there are enough passengers to fill thirteen daily trips in each direction, non-stop (sixteen on FSS). Works out to about four trips of three-car sets, each way. The GoBus departures are in addition to the five Expressway buses each way daily, but those stop in Athlone, Ballinasloe and Loughrea; but if you add those, that's another full three-car set or so. Is the point to compete with the buses, though, or to take their patronage away? because even for the number of buses operating, you still have maybe twenty times or more of the bus' capacity behind the wheel of a car making the same journey.

As for the trains, how many passengers use intermediate stops between Galway and Heuston right now? Now if the railway between Mullingar and Athlone were still open, stopping trains between Dublin and Galway could run that way...or maybe even the odd express.

Nobody ever advocates dumping stopping trains so you can have expresses; only in the case of certain stopping journeys being used lightly at the intermediate stops would that make sense.

Godge

KC61 wrote: »

There will have to be a recast of the Intercity timetable but that won't happen until the four-tracking from Hazelhatch to Inchicore is complete early in 2011.

That should then finally see expresses to Dublin in the morning complemented with evening expresses from Dublin.

The four track section will I understand be capable of 100mph running.

As opposed to 120 mph on the motorway. Other than people in either city centre travelling at peak traffic times which have congestion delays, the road makes more sense than rail.

mgmt

Godge wrote: »

As opposed to 120 mph on the motorway. Other than people in either city centre travelling at peak traffic times which have congestion delays, the road makes more sense than rail.

I like driving at 200kph too.

CIE

godge wrote: »

As opposed to 120 mph on the motorway

What motorway?! Ireland has no autobahn network. 120 mph is not legal.

mgmt wrote: »

I like driving at 200kph too.

Don't we all. Not fun hitting a red deer at that speed though.

corktina

KC61 wrote: »

There will have to be a recast of the Intercity timetable but that won't happen until the four-tracking from Hazelhatch to Inchicore is complete early in 2011.

That should then finally see expresses to Dublin in the morning complemented with evening expresses from Dublin.

The four track section will I understand be capable of 100mph running.

under investment if ever I saw it...As the rest of europe moves ever up in max speed, this line is limited to 100 mph for the next few decades.

KC61

Godge wrote: »

As opposed to 120 mph on the motorway. Other than people in either city centre travelling at peak traffic times which have congestion delays, the road makes more sense than rail.

Eh a 100mph railway and a 120kph motorway!!

KC61

Back on topic - the competition from Bus Eireann is increasing....

http://www.buseireann.ie/news.php?id=918&month=Nov

Travel Limerick-Galway in Just 80 Minutes with High Frequency X51 Express Service from Bus Éireann

Bus Éireann’s high frequency X51 Express service between Limerick and Galway has just got even quicker with the opening of the Crusheen to Gort Motorway. From Monday 22nd November 2010, X51 services will use the Motorway and Gort by-pass to further cut journey times between the two cities to only 80 minutes each way.


The X51 Limerick-Galway provides the fastest coach connection between Limerick and Galway and some services will also operate to and from UL.

“There has already been great customer reaction to the X51 and the further cut in travelling time makes the X51 the ideal way to travel between Limerick and Galway. We would hope that these new services will help promote Limerick as a great destination to visit for business, shopping, days out or study,” said Miriam Flynn, Regional Manager, South West, Bus Éireann.

From Limerick Bus Station, the X51 operates up to 9 times daily departing Limerick at 9.15, 10.15, 11.15, 12.15, 13.15, 14.15, 15.15, 16.15, 17.15.

From Galway Bus Station, the X51 operates up to 10 times daily at 09.00, 10.00, 11.00 (Except Saturday & Sunday), 12.00, 13.00, 14.00, 15.00, 16.00, 17.00 and 18.00.

All X51 services pick-up and set down on request at GMIT. There will also be X51 services from UL on Fridays only during college terms. These will operate from UL at 12.50, 14.50, and 16.50. X51 services will operate from Galway to UL on Sundays only during college terms at 16.00, 17.00, and 18.00. All services to and from UL will pick-up and set down on request at LIT.

The X51 services are in addition to Bus Éireann’s existing 14 services a day each way between Galway and Limerick on Route 51.


17 November 2010

CIE

KC61 wrote: »

Back on topic - the competition from Bus Eireann is increasing....

http://www.buseireann.ie/news.php?id=918&month=Nov

WADR, the word "competition" is an oxymoron in this context. The state runs both the trains and the buses; it cannot "compete" against itself. We're back to the 1960s and the excuses to close Cork suburban rail (road "competition" cited).

KC61

Two companies run separate services - one by road, one by rail. They can compete.

CIE

KC61 wrote: »

Two companies run separate services - one by road, one by rail. They can compete.

They're not two companies. (Why must I state the obvious?) And (for the second time), on top of that, it's the state.

KC61

CIE wrote: »

They're not two companies. (Why must I state the obvious?) And (for the second time), on top of that, it's the state.

They are two companies run independently. They may co-operate from time to time, but by and large they run independently of one another.

CIE is purely a holding company - that is all.

Just because they the same holding company does not mean that they cannot compete.

Please stop trying to insult my intelligence - I have been observing Irish transport for over 30 years and I think I have some idea of what I'm talking about by now.

westtip

KC I think waht CIE is saying they are both State agencies - in a way they are not "real" companies - - not quoted on the markets and not privately owned and they don't have to show an economic return to their shareholders -in fact their shareholders subvent their business operations - the truth is the state owned Bus company/agency/service provider is competing in an internal market with the state owned Rail/company/services provider - they are indeed run separately - which in a way is part of the problem. They should in fact be forced to integrate services - so that buses meet trains and train and bus timetables become "Public transport timetables", tickets should be integrated etc.

Re the dear old WRC, the job of the state transport providers is to provide a service whereby people can travel between the two cities Limerick and Galway as quickly and cost effectively as possible. The state has provided two separate pieces of infrastructure to do this. One performs much better than the other (the road), the other has its merits but in reality is not going to be able to compete with the road.

It seems now with todays news both the WRC and the far more important M17/18 Gort Tuam road will be hit by the cuts we will witness from our German masters.

Judgement Day

As long as the IMF don't interfere with the urgently needed Burma Road section reopening I don't care.

PS I hear that Olli Rehn is NOT a cycling fan!

CIE

KC61 wrote: »

They are two companies run independently. They may co-operate from time to time, but by and large they run independently of one another.

CIE is purely a holding company - that is all.

Just because they the same holding company does not mean that they cannot compete.

Please stop trying to insult my intelligence - I have been observing Irish transport for over 30 years and I think I have some idea of what I'm talking about by now.

Westtip explained it. If you disagree, then you're insulting your own intelligence and insulting people here. Unless they're private companies, they are not competing.

BTW, "WADR" means "with all due respect". Therefore I was not trying to insult. Your suddenness at taking offence bespeaks lack of confidence in your position on your part.

westtip wrote: »

Re the dear old WRC, the job of the state transport providers is to provide a service whereby people can travel between the two cities Limerick and Galway as quickly and cost effectively as possible. The state has provided two separate pieces of infrastructure to do this. One performs much better than the other (the road), the other has its merits but in reality is not going to be able to compete with the road

You're entitled to your opinion, but frankly my long personal experience with motorways has me seeing things quite opposite to that. Motorways have a tendency to fill to capacity quite rapidly, with average driving speed dropping like a rock after less than a month. Even a seemingly slow DMU running at a 36-mph (58-km/h) average speed would sail past such slow traffic.

westtip wrote: »

It seems now with todays news both the WRC and the far more important M17/18 Gort Tuam road will be hit by the cuts we will witness from our German masters.

Well noted re: "German masters". Don't get me started about the new empire. And with the far greater maintenance requirements of motorways versus railways, expect the road artery to become troublesome, or subsequently tolled to pay for upkeep.

KC61

CIE wrote: »

Westtip explained it. If you disagree, then you're insulting your own intelligence and insulting people here. Unless they're private companies, they are not competing.

BTW, "WADR" means "with all due respect". Therefore I was not trying to insult. Your suddenness at taking offence bespeaks lack of confidence in your position on your part.

I have no lack of confidence. We are talking about a service (the X51) that does not get state support and is not subsidised. None of Bus Eireann's Expressway services receive a subsidy.

If you're suggesting that BE should not, as a commercially run company, albeit semi-state, take advantage of the new business opportunity presented by the motorway, then really is not much hope for you.

For two companies to use state subsidies to compete with each other would be another thing altogether. That is an area where the two ought to be complementary, but I see absolutely nothing wrong in BE going for a commercial opportunity.

Can I ask how often do you use public transport in Ireland?

westtip

CIE wrote: »

W Motorways have a tendency to fill to capacity quite rapidly, with average driving speed dropping like a rock after less than a month. Even a seemingly slow DMU running at a 36-mph (58-km/h) average speed would sail past such slow traffic.Well noted re: "German masters". Don't get me started about the new empire. And with the far greater maintenance requirements of motorways versus railways, expect the road artery to become troublesome, or subsequently tolled to pay for upkeep.

The Motorways in Ireland will not fill to capacity as we simply don't have the capacity to fill them - certainly the M17/18 as a full motrowaay quality dc planned between Tuam and Gort - and on to Limerick on the completed part at least, will probably never fill to capacity - there simply isn't enough traffic on the route, just go to the traffic counts on the NRA website to see what I mean, driving on motorways in Ireland (compared to say UK or continental Europe) is a joy - there is so little traffic on the road (vis a vis the capacity the road has to carry); Of course nearer Dublin the Motorways do carry more vehicles, but really outside the absolute peak hours, the inbound motorways like the M4 do not fill to capacity and the M50 for all its critics - now it is freeflow, does the job. regarding your vision of a seemingly slow DMU sailing past static traffic, You have really described a situation - that is not comparable with anything in Ireland - and certainly not with any situation you will probably ever see in the West of Ireland, whcih brings us back to this whole critical mass thing re the WRC, and BTW before you say why build motorways of overcapacity in the West of Ireland - Well - Saving lives is probably the most important social reason, plus like it or not, the Atltantic Road Corridor will revolutionise doing business in the West of Ireland, as I have often said just go and talk to businesses here, retailers, bus companies etc, people who need to get to hospital and BTW talk to Tourists as well who want to get to their destination and enjoy their holiday without the trauma of driving on our old National road network.

Re our German masters, with the talent deficit we have in our political classes I am personally delighted at the possibility of some efficient governance.

corktina

westtip wrote: »

The Motorways in Ireland will not fill to capacity as we simply don't have the capacity to fill them -

The truth iof that is self-evident by looking at the M7/8/9, all of which funnel into 2 lanes near to Dublin and are obvious over-provision of capacity

serfboard

IMF + ARC = RIP for WRC

So, the IMF will say "ye spent 100plus million on what?!" "And it costs ye how much to run?" "What is the subsidy per (paying) passenger?" "Aye caramba!" (or whatever language Mr. Chopper speaks).

The opening of Gort to Crusheen allowing Bus Eireann's X51 service to travel to Limerick from Galway quicker, more frequently and cheaper than the train represents the final nail in the coffin. Well that plus the public finances.