Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

steamengine

Layzehfoo wrote: »

Well, I'm not sure about your theories guys, but I know of at least 30-odd families in my locality that use the train for getting to Limerick, Galway and Dublin. I'd get into the debate, but on corktina's suggetstion I went and read the backlog. I've read again and again and again and again and again and again times 1000+ how you small group of posters have completely drowned out any voices that might not be critical of the railwayline. You have a serious, serious chip on your shoulders regarding this railway line, Irish Rail in general, and the way western development is promoted. You've argued, and sniped, and you've made yourselves clear again and again and again until any dissenters either break rules or give up.

I've seen what you guys have done before, and I'll have no part in it. This place is yours and yours alone.

As a Loughrea resident, I thought I'd be able to provide some balance on this thread. After the mildly abusive posts from corktina, and especially after reading how bad this actually got at one stage, I do not feel comfortable or welcome here.

I'd be better off trying to talk to Atheists about Christianity, or Christians about Atheism.

Great post and in case no one else has said it already, - Welcome to boards !

dermo88

You mean he managed to do that after 19 posts, and only registered in August 2010. How did he do that I wonder? How did he hear of boards.ie commuting and transport?

I'd be interested to find out.

"You've argued, and sniped, and you've made yourselves clear again and again and again until any dissenters either break rules or give up"

Since the same strategies were adopted against dissenters on West on Track's website, it is fair to fight fire with fire. Lets face it, for quite a few here, boards.ie is the last stand, and its a gunfight at the OK Corral....

Lets face it:

No Clonsilla to Navan rail-link. Promised 1994, 1997, 2002, 2007, should be open by 2010, still not there yet.

No DART Underground.....Promised 1974, 1978, 1984, Cancelled 1987, Revived on the cheap 1994.....still not there yet.

Cork to Midleton.....Promised 1978, 1984, Cancelled 1987.....Promised 1997, 1999, 2002, eventually opened 2009.

Limerick Junction to Rosslare Harbour. Under threat of closure since 1974. Closure notices made in 1977, 1983, 2002....finally partially closed 2010.

Limerick to Ballybrophy. Under threat of closure since 1974.

Knockcroghery derailment, Arklow derailment, to name two near misses....on a defective and decrepit network.

Flooding near Ennis, showing the inadequate rebuild of Limerick to Ennis.

Stating the above as examples. May I ask?

Is it appropriate to reopen a line badly, when the remainder of the network requires upgrading, improvement and expansion in areas where the need is much greater?

I do accept that Limerick to Athenry should never have closed in the first place, and that Limerick to Ballina once daily should have become Limerick to Galway back in 1976....when the original service was cut.

steamengine

The 'welcome' is more important IMO - that certain posts don't suit some is evident, but that is what balance is all about.

dermo88

Well steamengine, you have proven youself to be a greater gentleman than myself, but after 6 years on boards, I have observed more then enough to be cynical.

Welcome aboard the train of cynicism Layzehfoo. Hang in there, because I assure you, with the cynics on this board, it makes the Calcutta express look like the Orient express.

The problem is, if you stay long enough, and tolerate the constant mockery, the sarcasm, the risk of being banned is that.....it takes roughly 3 years (at best), from planning to full implementation of service in the best countries. In Ireland, as I have shown......

around 30.....30 years. By the time the DART underground opens, it will be 42 years.

And to think I played with my nice Lima choo choo train at 5 years of age, thinking the real thing would appear in Tallaght, and I'd be able to land in Dublin Airport, pay 5 Euro 90 cent and get home.

Like the Netherlands at Amsterdam Schipol.

How naive I was.

If 30 odd families are using the Limerick to Galway service, and I hope they are, then that should be generating revenue of the order of (say) 30,000 Euro per annum.

I hope Limerick to Galway succeeds, and unfortunately, sacrificing Rosslare to Waterford might mean the success of Limerick to Waterford. Maybe that was the lesson needed in 1976, that the dodgier 'Siamese twin' has to be sacrificed for the survivor to live. The dodgier twin then being Athenry to Claremorris.

steamengine

Dermo88, you are pushing an open door with the points you are making re IE. I wonder if Wexford had a government Minister and Galway had not, which of the two railway lines would be running now ? The answer is most likely Rosslare Waterford IMO.

Any way there is a more fundamental problem also mentioned by Westtip and that is population. Our part of the island with a pop of circa 4.5 million and largely urbanised doesn't provide the backdrop for high utilisation of rural railway lines. However there is some hope for the WRC as urbanisation could take possibly take place along its length as a result of the line being in existence, and, the fact that it links two cities. Now that the tiger has gone a rain check is obviously in place, but look at the M50 over here - all sorts of businesses and new housing are now located off it, just because it was there.

The big threat to the railway sytem is motorways, but will that be the case in 50 years time. Oil prices are expected to increase over the coming years due to increasing global demand, and that is where rail electrification could come into its own to reduce travel costs. In the UK rail travel fuel cost ratio of diesel to electric is approx 2:1. They are 30% electrified with some trains running at 125 mph. In effect this means that we are way behind the curve, but while we may be in motorway mode now, it is worth noting that other EU countries are backing the two horses.

foggy_lad

There are plenty of empty units along the m50 and other placads too and several useless "nama" hotels.

dowlingm

steamengine wrote: »

there is some hope for the WRC as urbanisation could take possibly take place along its length as a result of the line being in existence, and, the fact that it links two cities.

I have to agree with foggy_lad - what Ireland needs for the present is consolidation, not development.

Short of going into the business of touting for immigrants-for-cash to balance the current outflow (and Ireland's record of dealing with immigrants to date certainly won't cause a huge rush for the entrance by those who have a quarter-mil or more in their pocket), seeking expansion of the towns (and villages) of the WRC is less important than dealing with issues like Limerick's regeneration.

shamwari

There is one thing here which I feel has been missed in the WRC debate. Before it opened, I shared the sceptisism of some here about the merits or otherwise of the reopening.

However, now that it is opened, I feel that it is important that it is a success going forward. My reasons for this are simple: if patronage falls below sustainable levels, then services will be cut a lá Rosslare-Waterford and perhaps the Ballybrophy branch. The excuse used will be to be to blame the downturn and the recession as a means of avoiding (political) embarassment over spending all that money and not getting full advantage from it. The wider implications for this will be that the railways nationally will
(a) get no significant capital spend going forward, with significant implications for headline projects like the interconnector, and
(b) we will face further cuts and rationalisation across all routes

I'm sure that a few would like to see the WRC get a kicking so that they can win the "I told you so" battle, but the reality is chaps that if the WRC looses, Rail nationally will be the much bigger looser in the long term.

corktina

thats all very well but how do you ensure it is a success going forward?

It has received massive publicity through the good offices of WoT and after that, if it isn't sucessful it's hard to see what could be done to improve patronage.

Whatever IS done , needs to be done for all the other provincial lines as well as they are largely struggling to survive too.

dermo88

Please, in the name of all that is sane, do not use that failed management phrase "going forward".

Its reminiscent of a Singapore chinese David Brent wannabee. You know.....fake Rolex, 4 mobile phones, Proton Saga, souped up with fake Mercedes logos, and rear mounted spoiler stolen from an A380, clueless about management, but muddling through somehow.

I hope it succeeds now that its built. In fact, its bloody crucial that it does now, because its failure will have a catastrophic chain reaction down the line affecting Navan, the Interconnector, and other projects.

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

thats all very well but how do you ensure it is a success going forward?

It has received massive publicity through the good offices of WoT and after that, if it isn't sucessful it's hard to see what could be done to improve patronage.

Whatever IS done , needs to be done for all the other provincial lines as well as they are largely struggling to survive too.

Well for a start they need to be more cost competitive. Sixmilebridge - Limerick or Ennis is €11 rtn or €14 monthly return. Thats just too expensive to get people using the train to go to town shopping or go in to Limerick or Ennis for a night out and get the train back the next morning.

Then they need to promote the lines tourist potential. Galway is an excellent destination for family days out during the summer but they need to pitch it and promote correctly to generate customers.

Of course Shannon airport has lost most of its flights so not much point in having shuttle buses connecting the train to the airport anymore.:(

Irish rail need to compete across the board more agressively due to A/ the new road network and B/ the recession

wild handlin

/\

Absolutely. There should be a shuttle=bus from Sixmilebridge to Shannon Airport for starters.

Secondly there should be a total abolishment of car parking charges, what a greedy way of so called "encouraging customers".

Sure look at that M3 Park-way station! Who in the right mind would pay €1.80 thru the toll to pay an additional €2.00 to enter the car-park to then pay €5+ to get the train into town, while all the more they could be into town and into work saving money by using their car.

If IE/the Govt. are serious about people using public transport they need to start looking at ways of enticing the public to use their services. Number 1 is not charge for their car-parks... Instead they should have a barrier on the way out which reads rail tickets, and thus they get out for free. Those who have used the car-park for shopping etc or who have lost their ticket pay a flat fare of €2 on the way out.

dowlingm

Steamengine - Wexford has had a minister for a few months. I guess his electoral catchment is on the north side of it?

dermo88

It is at this stage, that I am forced to point out a contradiction in terms.

We are told to "attack the post, but not the poster". However, we have a poster who is employed by this organisation called CIE. The poster then comes in here to defend the undefenceable, and justify what cannot be justified. The poster then states:

"You've argued, and sniped, and you've made yourselves clear again and again and again until any dissenters either break rules or give up"

Some of us are here because we care.
Some of us are here because we are interested.

And some of us are here because they are part of the self preservation society.........

I now ask, with all due respect, where do you stand as an employee of the CIE Group? If I were in your position, I would suggest that you are part of the self preservation society. Now, its been a very long time since I produced one of these satirical beauties.

Courtesy of the Film, the Italian Job

They are the self preservation society.
They are the self preservation society.
Don't care about trains or customers.
Waiting out their worklife on the line.
Gold plated pensions they'll be fine.

Get your checks out mate, its soon checkmate.

Otherwise......please, unless you are prepared to admit the sins of that organisation on this forum, today, you are welcome to create another username, and pretend to be neutral and partisan.

I do look forward to your reply. So will the other posters, the so called 'detractors'. Unless you are capable of showing to the best of your ability that CIE has followed best International practice over the past 15 years, has given value for money to the customer and taxpayer. That it has developed its business. That it is well managed.

Because the evidence is there. And proving a case does state.

'beyond all reasonable doubt'

Thank you.

steamengine

dowlingm wrote: »

Steamengine - Wexford has had a minister for a few months. I guess his electoral catchment is on the north side of it?

Here's the rail enthusiastic minister you need - 20 secs in !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KOQVByxmMs

shamwari

corktina wrote: »

thats all very well but how do you ensure it is a success going forward?

It has received massive publicity through the good offices of WoT and after that, if it isn't sucessful it's hard to see what could be done to improve patronage.

Whatever IS done , needs to be done for all the other provincial lines as well as they are largely struggling to survive too.

You've largely answered your own question there! Publicty / promotion / patronage for a start. And I think an end to the general negativity which swirls around here from time to time wouldn't do any harm either. In fact, I'd wager that this forum is the only one "articulating" counter views, but some of the arguments seem to be for arguments sake.

As regards other struggling lines, would you not agree with me that as the WoT model has been proved as effective, is it not time for others to adopt their same strategy? Granted they lobbied for opening whereas others will be arguing to prevent closure, but surely some of the WoT strategy could be usefully employed elsewhere on other lines under threat?

corktina

In my view WoT have been suicessful in opening Part of the line (not the bit they really want though...) but the Jury is out as to whether they have put bums on seats. I've a feeling October will produce some real statistics...

shamwari

dermo88 wrote: »

I hope it succeeds now that its built. In fact, its bloody crucial that it does now, because its failure will have a catastrophic chain reaction down the line affecting Navan, the Interconnector, and other projects.

Yep, I totally agree. Whatever the WRC cost to reopen, it's small change compared to the cost of the grandee projects you mentioned above. And failure of the WRC will, I suspect, have implications for these. In the current economic climate, rail has to justify itself, and more to the point, be seing to be justifying itself. Which is helped no end by a growing quality motorway network, and a rail management which don't want to run their business to the best of its - or their - abilities.
:mad:

Victor

dowlingm wrote: »

Job 4: hopefully enough cash can be scraped together to add a Longpavement station for LIT/Thomond Park, and maybe a Renmore station too - but with LIT and GMIT fronting for a bus shuttle and in Limerick's case the local regeneration agency too (for CCTV and the Army Ranger Wing :eek:).

Not needed for Renmore

maninasia

dowlingm wrote: »

Given the need for gentle gradients, former rail lines are ideal candidates for greenways. I read a very positive article on the Otago Trail in New Zealand over the weekend that made that very point - it even includes a tunnel section!

They are common in some Asian countries too and yes they can be spectacular with tunnels and bridges, really big tourist attractions and good for families too.

dowlingm

Appropriate for the day that's in it - Jack Lynch said the only people that could carry passengers on All Ireland Final day was CIE.

Well, CIE have been passengers on the taxpayer's back for years. The government has destroyed the finances of the country by failing to terminate Anglo Irish Bank with extreme prejudice and this mistake is going to cannibalise every public work including Irish Rail.

Both the board and their servants are going to have to come to a common view on how to run their show better and cheaper or some very regressive steps are going to be taken for them by Dept of Finance. If there are train hosts hiding in First Class, their colleagues have to get them to cop on lest they be all fired. If there are HR drones heading down the road to a walkout, their managers are going to have to be listening for wardrums and step in promptly. There is no alternative. ESB is critical. The health service is critical. Schools are critical. If the railways close - an alternative will be found.

westtip

maninasia wrote: »

They are common in some Asian countries too and yes they can be spectacular with tunnels and bridges, really big tourist attractions and good for families too.

oh yes my little old chestnut comes back into the debate - realistically this is now the only option for Athenry - Tuam - claremorris - Collooney - whats more this is now how the DOT is thinking - with the plans for the national cycle network, in the recent paper from DOT this route is clearly identified for this treatment, they haven't of course announced it as they are continuing to fudge T21 and give the codology that Athenry Tuam is about to happen any moment now - it ain't BTW and last weeks news about the N17/18 has killed it off.

Mayo CC have just been given a grant to extend the Newport Mulranny greenway from Mulranny to Achill at one end and from Westport to Newport at the other end - the current greenway was used by 300 people a day in the summer and has totally changed tourism in Newport. This too will be the future for WRC northern branchline. Believe me.

The southern branch line will struggle on it will not be closed because would leave too much egg on face but it won't succeed until it is managed by a company that want it to succeed.

Hope you all had a good weekend I was thankfully off line walking in the hills.

Transportuser09

westtip wrote: »

oh yes my little old chestnut comes back into the debate - realistically this is now the only option for Athenry - Tuam - claremorris - Collooney - whats more this is now how the DOT is thinking - with the plans for the national cycle network, in the recent paper from DOT this route is clearly identified for this treatment, they haven't of course announced it as they are continuing to fudge T21 and give the codology that Athenry Tuam is about to happen any moment now - it ain't BTW and last weeks news about the N17/18 has killed it off.

Mayo CC have just been given a grant to extend the Newport Mulranny greenway from Mulranny to Achill at one end and from Westport to Newport at the other end - the current greenway was used by 300 people a day in the summer and has totally changed tourism in Newport. This too will be the future for WRC northern branchline. Believe me.

The southern branch line will struggle on it will not be closed because would leave too much egg on face but it won't succeed until it is managed by a company that want it to succeed.

Hope you all had a good weekend I was thankfully off line walking in the hills.

I agree with you on north of Claremorris (although another poster pointed out Coolooney is in the middle of no where a while back). But Tuam-Athenry should be kept for rail use. Not 100% sure of Tuam-Claremorris but Tuam-Athenry undoubtedly has value as a commuter link to Galway.

westtip

Then why not go for this option along the entire lenght of the northern branch line and indeed the southern branch line. Just opent he pic to see what I mean - of course this can be achieved elsewhere however 101 reasons will be found to show why it can't be done here - the difference is we're irish. It would fulfil the targets for the national cycle network and T21 for the WRC northern branch line.

BTW Collooney is more or less a commuting surburb of Sligo.

glineli

westtip wrote: »

Then why not go for this option along the entire lenght of the northern branch line and indeed the southern branch line. Just opent he pic to see what I mean - of course this can be achieved elsewhere however 101 reasons will be found to show why it can't be done here - the difference is we're irish. It would fulfil the targets for the national cycle network and T21 for the WRC northern branch line.

BTW Collooney is more or less a commuting surburb of Sligo.

Where is that picture from? that looks very impressive. Awful waste that they didnt do that from Ennis to Athenry.

westtip

glineli wrote: »

Where is that picture from? that looks very impressive. Awful waste that they didnt do that from Ennis to Athenry.

Thanks - indeed I got the pic from the sustrans website - indeed they missed an opportunity. It could be retro fitted there is plenty of room on the alignment and it would increase usage of the line in particular by tourists - bike one way train the other. Of course it wasn't done - the difference is we're irish.

Eiretrains

Think its ludicrous and short sighted idea to convert Athenry-Claremorris to a green walkway, the section of line concerned could create a useful link to the freight artery to Ballina, which once (and could again considering the newer block freight trains which have appeared in recent years) which frequently traversed the WRC a little over ten years ago.

Also the line isn't as badly constructed as the northern section from Claremorris. Don't know why there are concerns about the crossing for example at Ballindine, more or less identical to those found at Kiltartan and Craughwell on the reopened section.
The Claremorris-Collooney line I think is the ideal walkway as it high number of crossings on both minor and major roads, as well as the gradients would make it an costly enterprise, for possibly very little in return in railway revenue.

westtip

Eiretrains wrote: »

Think its ludicrous and short sighted idea to convert Athenry-Claremorris to a green walkway, the section of line concerned could create a useful link to the freight artery to Ballina, which once (and could again considering the newer block freight trains which have appeared in recent years) which frequently traversed the WRC a little over ten years ago.

.

Did you look at the pic to see what I am suggesting and in fact have been suggesting for nearly two years on these very pages. Please do look at the pic you may not find this such a "ludicrous" suggestion. This could be achieved the whole length of the WRC northern branch line and southern branch line, and it would meet objectives of the National Cycle Network, add value to the line as tourist/leisure facility. etc To run the parallel greenway is far from short sighted - in fact not having done so parallel to the southern branch line was IMO short sighted. providing the parallel greenway along the entire southern and northern branchline would in fact be long sighted ney visionary.

Eiretrains

Should have made myself clearer, as in removing the line entirely.
Indeed Westtip that would be more ideal to have both, just we don't have much example to look to other than those that are successfully installed in Britain.
It would have to be done carefully as not to interfere with the right of way, as often too many disused lines in this country have been compromised by nearby lineside alterations.

dowlingm

That picture or one like it was posted before. My comment at the time was that the excuse will be that safety rules don't permit it unless a massive concrete/steel construction separates the footpath from the right of way. I suspect a lot of the neighbouring farmers (some of whom inching to "accidentally" assume the trackbed as noted in the NTA decision) won't love the idea of ramblers along their farms as they might have notions of straying off the path!