The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread

nerd69

Syferus wrote: »

:eek:

None of those have shown over an extended period to be even in the discussion of being better than Nicks besides DeSean Jackson, who pretty much imploded last season, and Reggie Wayne, who is clearly past his peak and staring down the slope.

if jackson gets in the top 100 for his year off il buy a hat and eat it other than one or two games he decided he wanted to play he was just in the way last year we could have put a bollard out there instead and thats from an eagles fan

Syferus

spiralism wrote: »

Wallace is around as long and has contributed at least as much. Wayne has put up stellar numbers through his career and still put up good numbers with a shower of losers at QB on an awful side. DJax is a better deep threat and return man, Harvin is better all around and is a star on a poor side, Lloyd has put up ridiculous numbers the past two years with Orton and Bradford and Cruz was his teams best WR last year in terms of yardage and TDs.

Dunno how you can talk about extended period since Nicks isnt in the game longer than any of those bar Cruz.

Wallace is a one-trick pony, everyone knows all he does is run fast as a rocket. Nicks can out-run you or beat you with crisp routes and he blocks a hell of alot better than Wallace, there isn't any debate that he's a better player. Lloyd put up decent numbers last year, not 'ridiculous' ones, to discount the fact he's been dropped or traded from plenty of team previous to his love-in with McDaniels would be tunnel vision. Harvin's career has been plagued by migraine and injury problems and he'd need a big season before anyone could honestly say he's out-performing Nicks. DeSean Jackson's faults should have been evident last season.

JaMarcus Hustle

I'd rank Nicks just outside the Big 3 + Brandon Marshall. I'd have him tied for 5th with Jennings, the latter being a more clever player and a better route runner but obviously not as physically gifted as Nicks. Depends what mood I'm in when trying to decide between them! :P

HigginsJ

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

I'd rank Nicks just outside the Big 3 + Brandon Marshall. I'd have him tied for 5th with Jennings, the latter being a more clever player and a better route runner but obviously not as physically gifted as Nicks. Depends what mood I'm in when trying to decide between them! :P

Totally forgot about Brandon Marshall. He is pretty awesome. Will be back big time with Cutler this year.

CoachTO

Edit had to change it to 11 in the main Jar how could I forget Dwanye Bowe. Thanks EE for pointing that out.

For me I could pick out 10 WR and throw them all in the same jar of awesomeness and put them in an elite group. I find it very hard then to separate that 10 guys as lets face it WR are one of those positions where you can have your own style and still be a huge impact. Nicks would easily be in that Jar.

Bowe
Nicks
Calvin Johnson
Andre Johnson
Wes Welker
White
Wallace
Colston
V Jackson
Marshall
Fitzgerald

I would then have these guys just outside due to their inexperience or lack of work lately or they are just not there yet:

DeSean Jackson
Maclin
Wayne
Lloyd
Austin
Julio Jones
Cruz
Bryant
Nelson
Green

No order specified in the 2 groups but the top group I would see the best of the best and the second group either guys that were up with the best or guys who still can be or guys that might get there but are still above the rest.

eagle eye

You forgot Bowe and Green there TO.

JaMarcus Hustle

You forgot Jennings too! Would he be in your first or second? I'm a huge Jennings fan, think he has one of the best IQ's for a wide receiver in the league. Not as physically gifted as the likes of Megatron, Dre or Nicks but he's not exactly a slouch either.

Red Crow

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

You forgot Jennings too! Would he be in your first or second? I'm a huge Jennings fan, think he has one of the best IQ's for a wide receiver in the league. Not as physically gifted as the likes of Megatron, Dre or Nicks but he's not exactly a slouch either.

Top half of TO's list IMO.

Jennings is a great football player. Good agility, hands, smart etc. But from a positional sense, when looking at the overall attributes of a WR, he can't block and his yards after the catch aren't fantastic. I wouldn't deduct him much for blocking because he'd be similar to Larry Fitz in that respect IMO.

One of the best route runners for me.

Don't get me wrong I'd rather be throwing to a Megatron, Welker, Larry Fitz, Andre Johnson, Nicks etc. but he's a great football player.

eagle eye

I often wonder just how good could Dwayne Bowe be? I think he would be up there in the talk for best in the NFL if he was with another team.

When you think of the list of QBs he has had throwing to him

Huard
Croyle
Thigpen
Cassel

I'd love to see him with Brady, Rodgers or Brees.

CoachTO

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

You forgot Jennings too! Would he be in your first or second? I'm a huge Jennings fan, think he has one of the best IQ's for a wide receiver in the league. Not as physically gifted as the likes of Megatron, Dre or Nicks but he's not exactly a slouch either.

Big Fan of Jennings but I wouldn't have him in the top half. As you said he is a smart player and reads the game very well and I would have him on any team but I don't see him Elite. He is one of these guys that he will always be the Packers go to guy and will always put in his hard days work and be the teams work horse and there is many like him but never considered elite WR.

Hazys

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/04/larry-izzo-gave-going-for-two-new-meaning-on-the-patriots-sideline/

Larry Izzo once managed to secretly take a sh1t on the sideline of a game and Bill Belichick gave him a game ball to reward him :eek::pac:;)

matthew8

For me there are 3 elite WRs. Number one is Calvin Johnson, I had him on my fantasy team last year so I certainly have seen the incredible stuff he does. Number 2 is Andre Johnson. Take him out of the Texans and it's a huge blow to the passing game. Number 3 is Fitzgerald, outstanding play despite a pretty awful QB situation.

eagle eye

matthew8 wrote: »

For me there are 3 elite WRs. Number one is Calvin Johnson, I had him on my fantasy team last year so I certainly have seen the incredible stuff he does. Number 2 is Andre Johnson. Take him out of the Texans and it's a huge blow to the passing game. Number 3 is Fitzgerald, outstanding play despite a pretty awful QB situation.

Welker is elite imo by any standard. Ok he is not the big guy that will pluck one out of the air at an incredible height but there is nobody in the league that can do what he does anywhere close to as good.

matthew8

eagle eye wrote: »

Welker is elite imo by any standard. Ok he is not the big guy that will pluck one out of the air at an incredible height but there is nobody in the league that can do what he does anywhere close to as good.

Welker is best at a lot of things, but for me if the WR is elite they should be a deep threat. Welker would be around the top of my second tier. One thing that distinguishes the Johnsons and Fitzgerald for me is that when you play against them, you know that that is the dangerman. That is the man who will tear you up is you don't cover him well.

CoachTO

matthew8 wrote: »

WR is elite they should be a deep threat.

Why? Lets look at the word Elite:

noun

1. the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.

2. persons of the highest class: Only the elitewere there.

3.a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group: the power elite of a major political party.

Basically you are saying that a non deep threat guy cant be the best of the best or in the top group because he isnt a deep threat. Even if he puts up better numbers than a deep threat guy? Once again with your gems.

you know that that is the dangerman. That is the man who will tear you up is you don't cover him well.

Guys like Welker and guys who are non Deep threats would do the same to you if you don't cover them well.

matthew8

CoachTO wrote: »

Why? Lets look at the word Elite:

noun 1. ( often used with a plural verb ) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.

2. ( used with a plural verb ) persons of the highest class: Only the elite were there.

3. a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group: the power elite of a major political party.

Basically you are saying that a non deep threat guy cant be the best of the best or in the top group because he isnt a deep threat. Even if he puts up better numbers than a deep threat guy? Once again with your gems.




Guys like Welker and guys who are non Deep threats would do the same to you if you don't cover them well.

Elite is a very, very subjective word in this sport. If you ask John Clayton the elite QBs are the top one third. I laugh at that idea. For me the elite WR should be able to do it all. With Welker he does a lot of the things to a higher quality than anyone else, but there are a lot of other things that he's not so good at. Number 4 by my rankings. Incredibly tough guy to shut down but not quite elite for me. Where would he come in on your rankings? Welker's pushing on elite but not quite there for me. To say that they should be able to go deep means that to play like Fitz and the Johnsons you should be able to go deep. Welker stats wise has the advantage of Brady throwing to him of course, which Fitz and Andre don't have.

One thing that makes a difference with me when ranking players is of course how they perform against the team I watch the most, the Ravens. Johnson typically plays very well against the Ravens, Fitz had a nice game this year against us, whereas Welker hasn't put in a good performance against us recently.

Masked Man

matthew8 wrote: »

One thing that makes a difference with me when ranking players is of course how they perform against the team I watch the most

This seems very very bad to me.

matthew8

Masked Man wrote: »

This seems very very bad to me.

Why? Of course if I see a player in front of my eyes playing well it's going to make a difference.

CoachTO

matthew8 wrote: »

One thing that makes a difference with me when ranking players is of course how they perform against the team I watch the most, the Ravens. Johnson typically plays very well against the Ravens, Fitz had a nice game this year against us, whereas Welker hasn't put in a good performance against us recently.

So wait if they don't play well against the Ravens they are basically not Elite in your book because of it? You should really watch more games before you give your opinion. What you just said kind of makes sense more now to me to where all your debates lean.

So basically the other 1000 odd yards that has had Welker in the Top 2 WR for practically 4 of the last 5 years means nothing because he didn't do them against the Ravens. For what its worth the Last 5 seasons:

Welker: 6105 31TD
Fitzy: 6480 49TD
A Johnson: 5073 35TD
C Johnson: 5872 51TD

The reason I threw up those numbers is to rubbish your idea that Deep Threats should only be elite also. The fact Welker is up there with them should stand for something and to be frank Elites only being Deep threat guys is nonsense.

matthew8

CoachTO wrote: »

So wait if they don't play well against the Ravens they are basically not Elite in your book because of it? You should really watch more games before you give your opinion. What you just said kind of makes sense more now to me to where all your debates lean.

So basically the other 1000 odd yards that has had Welker in the Top 2 WR for practically 4 of the last 5 years means nothing because he didn't do them against the Ravens. For what its worth the Last 5 seasons:

Welker: 6105 31TD
Fitzy: 6480 49TD
A Johnson: 5073 35TD
C Johnson: 5872 51TD

The reason I threw up those numbers is to rubbish your idea that Deep Threats should only be elite. The fact Welker is up there with them should stand for something and to be frank Elites only being Deep threat guys is nonsense.

You're distorting what I said completely. It makes a difference if they perform against the Ravens for me because I can't watch every game and I watch the Ravens more than any other team by an absolute mile and if they perform against the Ravens I'm watching. Tom Brady has had some trouble against the Ravens but he's still an amazing player in my book. I'm not saying only deep threat guys can be elite but if you're elite you should be able to go deep. It's hard to judge a player in the NFL solely on stats, because with Calvin Johnson for example he's facing double and triple teams every week. Fitz has put up amazing stats considering the QB play, and Andre Johnson is such a huge difference maker in that Texans offense. They are a different team without him.

I'd also really like to see your WR rankings.

Masked Man

Basically what TO said. One game is too small a sample size.

It's hard to judge a player in the NFL solely on stats, because with Calvin Johnson for example he's facing double and triple teams every week.

And in the game you watch a player could be doubled teamed or just having an off day. It should be pretty low down the list of what you use to rank them, stats are more important.

This is obviously a ridiculous example, which takes it to the extreme, but if somebody only watched Chelsea play this year then: Cissé>>>>>>>>>>>>>Messi

CoachTO

matthew8 wrote: »

You're distorting what I said completely. It makes a difference if they perform against the Ravens for me because I can't watch every game and I watch the Ravens more than any other team by an absolute mile and if they perform against the Ravens I'm watching.

If you can't watch every game and every player then we can only take your opinion on what you have watched. You say you watch the Ravens the most and implied you see these players best when they play your Ravens. Hardly a fair reflection of a players full body of work if you haven't watched a full body of work by the player.

I'm not saying only deep threat guys can be elite but if you're elite you should be able to go deep.

Oh yeah?

but for me if the WR is elite they should be a deep threat

It's hard to judge a player in the NFL solely on stats, because with Calvin Johnson for example he's facing double and triple teams every week. Fitz has put up amazing stats considering the QB play, and Andre Johnson is such a huge difference maker in that Texans offense. They are a different team without him.

Sounds like a lot of excuses. All of these guys are Elite for a reason they warrant a double team or double coverage as does Welker and other guys like him. And triple teams? Yeah I highly doubt that. Seems you are stuck in this mentality that so called big time players are the elite guys. Guys that are deep threats that make so called big time plays when guys like Welker have to make yards and plays the hard way.

You do realise also that Deep threats could catch maybe 3 or 4 passes in a game compared to the 10 or so Welker has to do to make up a 100 yard game? And its not because one is better than the other its because the play design is to draw the coverage away from the Outside guy and give him them 1v1.

Without a solid Deep Threat, Slots find it hard going and without a Slot Deep threats find it hard going. Totally different kinds of WR and to not recognise both standards is ridiculous at best. Elite is a guy who is the best or one of the best in his field and to say that a guy like Welker can't be up there is stupid.

matthew8

Masked Man wrote: »

Basically what TO said. One game is too small a sample size.



And in the game you watch a player could be doubled teamed or just having an off day. It should be pretty low down the list of what you use to rank them, stats are more important.

This is obviously a ridiculous example, which takes it to the extreme, but if somebody only watched Chelsea play this year then: Cissé>>>>>>>>>>>>>Messi

As a Newcastle fan it is clear to everyone that Papiss Cisse is a far better player than Messi. Stats are typically the most important factor, but last year it was absolutely comical how much defenses paid attention to Calvin Johnson so in the games he did poorly statistically that was typically the explanation. As for the games I've watched myself, it makes a pretty big impact on me when Andre Johnson goes over the top and beats Ed Reed deep for a 46 yard score.

matthew8

If you can't watch every game and every player then we can only take your opinion on what you have watched. You say you watch the Ravens the most and implied you see these players best when they play your Ravens. Hardly a fair reflection of a players full body of work if you haven't watched a full body of work by the player.

So I suppose you've watched every single game of every player you talk about.

Sounds like a lot of excuses. All of these guys are Elite for a reason they warrant a double team or double coverage as does Welker and other guys like him. And triple teams? Yeah I highly doubt that. Seems you are stuck in this mentality that so called big time players are the elite guys. Guys that are deep threats that make so called big time plays when guys like Welker have to make yards and plays the hard way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAkmxoWvHjc Triple coverage* on Johnson right there. The Johnsons do an awful lot of things on their own as well as Fitzgerald. Wes Welker receives quite a bit of help from his TEs. If you have 3 guys covering Welker you're leaving 2 massive holes.

*Not triple teams but it's what I meant to say.

Without a solid Deep Threat, Slots find it hard going and without a Slot Deep threats find it hard going. Totally different kinds of WR and to not recognise both standards is ridiculous at best. Elite is a guy who is the best or one of the best in his field and to say that a guy like Welker can't be up there is stupid.

I'm not saying a guy like Welker can't be up there, but he's not perfect at what he does. If I was given the choice of an excellent slot receiver like Wes Welker or a deep threat like Johnson or Fitz I'd take the deep threat every time. I consider them more useful to a teams success.

I'm still waiting on your rankings by the way.

CoachTO

matthew8 wrote: »

So I suppose you've watched every single game of every player you talk about.

In any given NFL season I watch almost every game at some point in the season. I also watch a lot of College football and High school football. Its what I do hence why I coach the game.

CoachTO

matthew8 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAkmxoWvHjc Triple coverage* on Johnson right there. The Johnsons do an awful lot of things on their own as well as Fitzgerald. Wes Welker receives quite a bit of help from his TEs. If you have 3 guys covering Welker you're leaving 2 massive holes.
.

Without seeing the full movement it looks like cover 3 zone with the other 2 Lions WR running Shallow to mid routes and Megatron going long, so of course he is going to run into 3 guys. Had the Lions sent another WR down there with Megatron it would have been 3 v 2.

To elaborate they wouldnt have run Cover 3 Zone just to take out Megatron. They would have used it to take out the long pass. With only Megatron going deep it looked like it was the Lions using 3 guys to take him out but thats not the case no mater how many guys went deep there would have been 3 DBs there in a Cover 3 Zone.

As he showed there though he is a beast and by far the best WR in the league but thats not the debate.

CoachTO

matthew8 wrote: »

If you have 3 guys covering Welker you're leaving 2 massive holes.

Same can be said for leaving a FS and Corner on a Deep guy it can open up the seam on the other side for a slot of open up short routes.

I'm still waiting on your rankings by the way.

Eh?

bruschi

Welker is elite, end of. Just because he doesnt play a deep game doesnt mean he isnt an elite receiver. Can Johnson play a short game, or make the cross routes that Welker does? they play different roles on different teams, but it doesnt mean one cant be elite. Welkers numbers and influence the last few years are proving him being one of the top receivers in the game. And I'm not saying this just as a Pats fan, I think its pretty clear he is good at what he does.

Take running backs. Peterson is a completely different player to Turner, but they could both be considered elite. Or even go back a few years, and compare Sanders and Smith say. Without doubt elite, but to a different style to each other. I dont get why a receiver has to be considered a deep threat before he can be considered elite.

I was going to say I'm surprised this is even a debate, but looking at it, I shouldnt be really.

JaMarcus Hustle

Regarding the kickoff rule and how it leads to reduced concussions (they estimate it will reduce concussions by 40% since moving it up the field). Greg Schiano had a relatively good idea for what to do once they eliminate kick offs altogether.

This is Schiano’s plan: Replace all kickoffs with a punting situation, including after the opening coin toss and to start the second half. So, as an example, when Team A scores a touchdown, it immediately gets the ball back on a fourth and 15 from its own 30-yard line.

It can punt it back to Team B — the most likely outcome and a safer play since the bigger collisions usually happen on kickoffs.

Or it can line up and go for the first down, essentially replacing an onside kick with an offensive play that would require more skill than luck.

matthew8

Welker is elite, end of. Just because he doesnt play a deep game doesnt mean he isnt an elite receiver. Can Johnson play a short game, or make the cross routes that Welker does? they play different roles on different teams, but it doesnt mean one cant be elite. Welkers numbers and influence the last few years are proving him being one of the top receivers in the game. And I'm not saying this just as a Pats fan, I think its pretty clear he is good at what he does.

I'd say Johnson can play the short game, but it would be a waste of his talent.

Take running backs. Peterson is a completely different player to Turner, but they could both be considered elite. Or even go back a few years, and compare Sanders and Smith say. Without doubt elite, but to a different style to each other. I dont get why a receiver has to be considered a deep threat before he can be considered elite.

RB is a completely different position to WR.

Sure Welker puts up the great stats, but how would he do if he was the only guy who could catch a ball on the team, which is what Fitzgerald is in Arizona and Johnson is in Houston.

The reason I'm asking for your rankings is I'm wondering where you place Welker on a list of the best WRs. He's 4 on mine.