ESB and City Council at war over flooding

akaredtop

The floods have exposed yet again the incompetence of Government and the Public Service.

sean_84

themonboys wrote: »

ESB spokesperson on the radio said that they were releasing water from the dam since the Monday before the flooding.

That could be true. Have a look at this site:
http://89.124.67.3/dotnetnuke/DEPLOYStations/LeeMaltings/tabid/85/Default.aspx

It shows the water depth of the river measured very near the Mercy. You can see that the water levels were very high last week compared to the previous month.

hugoline

Thanks for that link sean_84!

Quite a few things can actually be read out of these graphs...

- The water levels were high since at least the 14th of November

- ESB have possibly reduced flow on only the 16th, probably to help in the search for the missing student. On the 17th the levels were back to the previous days

- The water levels are significantly lower since the 22nd/23rd than a week before the flooding (and keep in mind, it has been raining in the catchment area since last Friday) also indicating to me that the ESB has been trying to release water from the dam previous to the flooding.

moceri

51.2mm of Rain was measured at Cork Airport on the 19th Nov.

Low Tide was 1.05 a.m. on the 20th November
High Tide was 7.03 a.m. on the 20th November

At 20.07 p.m on the 19th Nov., the River Lee level had peaked at 4.91m as measured at the Tyndall National Institute at the Lee maltings (opposite the Mercy Hospital) and the ebbing tide was allowing the river level to fall.

At 11 p.m. The river flow abruptly changed, and the level surged, indicating a large quantity of water has been dumped into the river (up stream). The River level started to rise dramatically, peaking at 5.28m until 4.25 a.m. when the Quay wall opposite the Mercy collapsed and power was lost to the measuring equipment.

Power was not restored to the measuring equipment until 2.31p.m. on the 20th Nov., and the River level was then recorded at 4.38m (falling slowly).

I really think there is a case to answer by the EBS for wreckless endangerment for the unmanaged way in which the water was released.

The weather forecast for the 20th November was low rainfall and only .1 mm of rain was recorded at Cork Airport. They could have better managed the release.

mik_da_man

Very Interesting

shoegirl

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Look at Mallow, millions spent on flood relief, and yes it did prevent Bridge Street from flooding, but the Park Road was still a washout! I think they're not gonna do any more, and just leave the Park flood anyway.

Thats because of disputes relating to the lease of the lands around the Park and also its usage - there isn't a lot there to flood compared to around Bridge St. Bridge St HAD to be a priority because of the number of small business, houses and apartment blocks there. Apparently those greedy brothers hoped to look for rezoning and planning permissions to "develop" the area - something that they most definitely will NEVER be allowed do by a council which itself to have been royally screwed by them. I am not sure what the currently status is, but the GAA vacated and built a very nice facility in Carrigoon. I suspect that the knowledge of the lease expiry probably contibuted to the delay in putting together reliable plans for flood protections in the area.

However, whoever permitted a newish block of apartments to be built smack bang in the middle of it should be never, ever allowed near a plan or zoning decision ever again.

shnaek

shoegirl wrote: »

However, whoever permitted a newish block of apartments to be built smack bang in the middle of it should be never, ever allowed near a plan or zoning decision ever again.

On the contrary they'll get a golden handshake and a big pension :rolleyes:

parsi

As UCC was a "victim" it should be borne in mind that their report will be leaning towards enhancing their victimhood whilst subtly deflecting blame for any of their own decisions in respect of the usage of basements.

munstercork

It was MET Eireann's Fault.... according to ESB boss...

extracted from IT article....

ESB executive director of power generation Michael McNicholas told The Irish Times the company had been aware of the reduced absorptive capacity of the land and had been monitoring weather forecasts closely prior to the emergency situation.

“What happened was that on Monday 16th, our staff at Inniscarra looked at the Met Éireann forecasts and saw that there were significant volumes of rainfall forecast for the week and they recognised that they would have to have a significant level of spillage and issued a flood alert.

“We were spilling water at a rate of 150 cubic metres per second and we continued at that level right through until Wednesday 18th.

“Met Éireann was forecasting rainfall of 46 millimetres on Thursday but our records show that almost double that amount, 90 millimetres, fell in the Lee catchment. We were monitoring this throughout and at 11am on Thursday, we issued a serious flood warning to all emergency services.

“We began increasing our spilllage incrementally from 150 cubic metres per second at 11am up until 535 cubic metres per second which we reached at 11pm and we issued further flood warnings at 4pm to the emergency services and local radio stations.

By 6pm the company had issued a public service warning to the RTÉ newsroom, he said.

“By then, our staff had serious concerns for the overall integrity of the dam so we increased our spillage to 535 cubic metres per second to prevent a catastrophe which would have led to uncontrollable flooding given 800 cubic metres a second was entering the system. It was the sudden increase in rain on Thursday – double the amount that Met Éireann had forecast – that forced us to take the action,” Mr McNicholas added.



Note also that ESB issued 2 flood warnings during Thursday, and at 6pm issued a public service warning to RTE.

rebel girl 15

shoegirl wrote: »

Thats because of disputes relating to the lease of the lands around the Park and also its usage - there isn't a lot there to flood compared to around Bridge St. Bridge St HAD to be a priority because of the number of small business, houses and apartment blocks there. Apparently those greedy brothers hoped to look for rezoning and planning permissions to "develop" the area - something that they most definitely will NEVER be allowed do by a council which itself to have been royally screwed by them. I am not sure what the currently status is, but the GAA vacated and built a very nice facility in Carrigoon. I suspect that the knowledge of the lease expiry probably contibuted to the delay in putting together reliable plans for flood protections in the area.

However, whoever permitted a newish block of apartments to be built smack bang in the middle of it should be never, ever allowed near a plan or zoning decision ever again.

I'm completely aware of the lease and the expiring of it, the problem began a couple of years ago - the reason I asked was that because there had been work done to the entrances, they closed up a number of them and raised the main entrance to the pitch. They had done significant work along the bank as well, rock walls that had not been seen in years were exposed as they pulled bank the bank.

The reason Carrigoon was built was because the GAA were paid for their ground at Carrokeel, not because of the town park pitch. As well as being paid for the ground, Carrigoon was built for them, didn't have to spend a cent. Last year, the town park was still being used for training by Mallow GAA.

shoegirl

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

I'm completely aware of the lease and the expiring of it, the problem began a couple of years ago - the reason I asked was that because there had been work done to the entrances, they closed up a number of them and raised the main entrance to the pitch. They had done significant work along the bank as well, rock walls that had not been seen in years were exposed as they pulled bank the bank.

You are right, but the point I'm trying to make is that you can't really blame the council for doing limited works in that area given the legal situation back in 2006 when this transpired. I certainly wouldn't carry out works on a building at the end of a lease if there was not something definite in place at that point. There was even talk, if I recall correctly, that the road area could end up going back to private ownership and would have to be closed off or else subjected to a CPO.

No idea what happened afterwards in terms of the legalities, I'm fairly surely that the brothers realistically must have realised that they could never zone or develop that land for several reasons and therefore it was of limited commercial value to them. Its still difficult, I am sure, to get permission to carry out any kind of works on lands you don't own so I think the councils hands would be tied in that area.

moceri

munstercork wrote: »

It was MET Eireann's Fault.... according to ESB boss...

extracted from IT article....

ESB executive director of power generation Michael McNicholas told The Irish Times the company had been aware of the reduced absorptive capacity of the land and had been monitoring weather forecasts closely prior to the emergency situation.

“What happened was that on Monday 16th, our staff at Inniscarra looked at the Met Éireann forecasts and saw that there were significant volumes of rainfall forecast for the week and they recognised that they would have to have a significant level of spillage and issued a flood alert.

“We were spilling water at a rate of 150 cubic metres per second and we continued at that level right through until Wednesday 18th.

“Met Éireann was forecasting rainfall of 46 millimetres on Thursday but our records show that almost double that amount, 90 millimetres, fell in the Lee catchment. We were monitoring this throughout and at 11am on Thursday, we issued a serious flood warning to all emergency services.

“We began increasing our spilllage incrementally from 150 cubic metres per second at 11am up until 535 cubic metres per second which we reached at 11pm and we issued further flood warnings at 4pm to the emergency services and local radio stations.

By 6pm the company had issued a public service warning to the RTÉ newsroom, he said.

“By then, our staff had serious concerns for the overall integrity of the dam so we increased our spillage to 535 cubic metres per second to prevent a catastrophe which would have led to uncontrollable flooding given 800 cubic metres a second was entering the system. It was the sudden increase in rain on Thursday – double the amount that Met Éireann had forecast – that forced us to take the action,” Mr McNicholas added.



Note also that ESB issued 2 flood warnings during Thursday, and at 6pm issued a public service warning to RTE.

I have today checked with Met Eireann who confirmed that nowhere in Ireland did they record 90mm of rain. The Highest recorded was 51.2mm at Cork airport - so I say ME got it fairly right. Who else can corroberate the ESB readings?


I have also checked RTE News Broadcasts for the 119th Nov. No specific Flood warning for the Lee Valley was issued. Did anyone else see/hear a warning?

I also noted that the Evening News Weather forcast predicts that the Following day will be "much brighter".

rebel girl 15

moceri wrote: »

I have also checked RTE News Broadcasts for the 119th Nov. No specific Flood warning for the Lee Valley was issued. Did anyone else see/hear a warning?

Yeah, we got a warning of increased flooding http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63152236&postcount=50

hugoline

moceri wrote: »

I have today checked with Met Eireann who confirmed that nowhere in Ireland did they record 90mm of rain. The Highest recorded was 51.2mm at Cork airport - so I say ME got it fairly right. Who else can corroberate the ESB readings?

Valentia Observatory got 57.4 mm and as outlied in post 54 it was possibly higher in the hills (and the catchment area of the Lee).
Also keep in mind, Met Eireann have no station within the catchment area of the Lee (which extends quite a bit westward of the Airport....)

AFAIK the ESB have not published any of their primary data (rainfall or water-flow measurements pre- or post- Inniscarra dam) and probably won't in the near future. Their 90mm seem on the high side (if it is for a 24 hour period)

dewdrop

As far as i know nobody as mentioned the "B" word...i mean what would likely happen if water came spilling over the dam. Was there a danger it could Burst and what then God forbid.

nacl

The ESB will be digging out their old press cuttings. But they might wish they had not called the flood of August 1986 a once in 500 year event.

Ireland's second city has been without water for tens of thousands of people for over a week because of a flooded waterworks. Has anyone ever seen such a thing anywhere else in the 'developed' world?

This problem at the waterworks was expected and entirely predictable. The ESB plant manager suggested flood gates for the Lee Rd waterworks fully 23 years ago.

http://floodmaps.ie/View/FloodPressArchives.aspx?Type=PressArchive&FloodId=492

Examiner August 7 1986
... 'if there were problems at the Waterworks on the Lee Rd then perhaps it was time that a flood gate was built there.'

rebel girl 15

From the UCC site

Will policy on basement usage now be reviewed and will new contingency plans be prepared?
The recent flood event changes everything. It is difficult at this stage to draw conclusions with regard to the cause of the flood. The Office of Public Works are finalising a new a River Lee CFRAMS (Catchment Flood Risk Assessment and Management Study) which will establish the likely impacts of global warming, changes in land use etc, and will recommend long term strategies for the management of flood risk in Cork City. This report and an analysis of the event in the last week will inform future UCC strategy.

Seems like there will be management of flood risk in Cork after all

It was 18 Audi's in the basement of the Kingsley, including a number of their newest model, cost a nice bit to replace!

Dob74

moceri wrote: »

51.2mm of Rain was measured at Cork Airport on the 19th Nov.

Low Tide was 1.05 a.m. on the 20th November
High Tide was 7.03 a.m. on the 20th November

At 20.07 p.m on the 19th Nov., the River Lee level had peaked at 4.91m as measured at the Tyndall National Institute at the Lee maltings (opposite the Mercy Hospital) and the ebbing tide was allowing the river level to fall.

At 11 p.m. The river flow abruptly changed, and the level surged, indicating a large quantity of water has been dumped into the river (up stream). The River level started to rise dramatically, peaking at 5.28m until 4.25 a.m. when the Quay wall opposite the Mercy collapsed and power was lost to the measuring equipment.

Power was not restored to the measuring equipment until 2.31p.m. on the 20th Nov., and the River level was then recorded at 4.38m (falling slowly).

I really think there is a case to answer by the EBS for wreckless endangerment for the unmanaged way in which the water was released.

The weather forecast for the 20th November was low rainfall and only .1 mm of rain was recorded at Cork Airport. They could have better managed the release.

One question that isnt being asked is why there was so much water being held behind the dam before nov 19.
1. Was it to do with a missing body?
2. Or was to do with the ESB trying to maximise the amount of power it could produce from the dam? (Hydo complaints wind power well as it can be switiched on almost immeditately)

With plans privatise the ESB in the near future the government and nearly all media dont appear to want to ask the tough question.

hugoline

This has been discussed in this and other threads and has been shown to be almost certainly not the case for both questions.

Dob74 wrote: »

One question that isnt being asked is why there was so much water being held behind the dam before nov 19.
1. Was it to do with a missing body?

Water-level data linked in this post clearly shows that the ESB possibly reduced the water release from Inniscarra damm for MAXIMUM half a day on the 16th of November

Dob74 wrote: »

2. Or was to do with the ESB trying to maximise the amount of power it could produce from the dam? (Hydo complaints wind power well as it can be switiched on almost immeditately)

According to the same data as linked above, the ESB released water from the Inniscarra dam possibly since Monday the 14th but defenately since the 16th according to an article in the Irish Times.
According to the same article, the ESB also lowered the level in the Inniscarra dam by over 2.5 meter previous to the flooding.

As said before: the dam reduced the peak water flow from an estimated 800 m3/sec to 535 m3/sec thus preventing quite a bit more damage.

The ESB will probably publish their report with a complete data-set in 4-6 Months (similar time it took them for the 2000 flood), and then we'll see exactly what descisions were taken at what time.

nacl

Dr Gerald Fleming of Met Éireann says their forecast for November 19 in Cork was proven to be correct and adds interesting colour.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1201/weather_av.html?2659135,null,209

craichoe

nacl wrote: »

The ESB will be digging out their old press cuttings. But they might wish they had not called the flood of August 1986 a once in 500 year event.

Ireland's second city has been without water for tens of thousands of people for over a week because of a flooded waterworks. Has anyone ever seen such a thing anywhere else in the 'developed' world?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gmmmWGFRjW5ZBRA6qXqnMuz56Zfg

Floods in 1953 killed 1,835 people and left 72,000 homeless when a total 200,000 hectares of land in the southern provinces of Zeeland, Noord Brabant and Zuid-Holland were inundated.

moceri

Here is the link to the 1986 Report. It looks like few of the recommendations were implemented. I suspect many of the same errors were repeated.

nesf

moceri wrote: »

Here is the link to the 1986 Report. It looks like few of the recommendations were implemented. I suspect many of the same errors were repeated.

The most interesting thing about that was that the peak inflow was a mere 504m3/s versus ESB's reports of over 800+ peak inflow. If this is true then it's a crazy increase!

nesf

dewdrop wrote: »

As far as i know nobody as mentioned the "B" word...i mean what would likely happen if water came spilling over the dam. Was there a danger it could Burst and what then God forbid.

The ESB were worried about the dam bursting, they wouldn't release 500+ tons of water a second if they weren't. If the dam had burst, you'd be looking at tens of thousands of deaths unless a major evacuation of the city could happen (i.e. get everyone out of the islands and low lying areas and up into the hills). If the dam had burst at night with no warning, then it'd be a death sentence for many people.

The ESB's first priority has to be the dam, including flooding the city to prevent it from happening.

nacl

nacl wrote: »

The ESB will be digging out their old press cuttings. But they might wish they had not called the flood of August 1986 a once in 500 year event.

Ireland's second city has been without water for tens of thousands of people for over a week because of a flooded waterworks. Has anyone ever seen such a thing anywhere else in the 'developed' world?

This problem at the waterworks was expected and entirely predictable. The ESB plant manager suggested flood gates for the Lee Rd waterworks fully 23 years ago.

http://floodmaps.ie/View/FloodPressArchives.aspx?Type=PressArchive&FloodId=492

Examiner August 7 1986
... 'if there were problems at the Waterworks on the Lee Rd then perhaps it was time that a flood gate was built there.'

craichoe wrote: »

nacl wrote:

Ireland's second city has been without water for tens of thousands of people for over a week because of a flooded waterworks. Has anyone ever seen such a thing anywhere else in the 'developed' world?

Floods in 1953 killed 1,835 people and left 72,000 homeless when a total 200,000 hectares of land in the southern provinces of Zeeland, Noord Brabant and Zuid-Holland were inundated.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gmmmWGFRjW5ZBRA6qXqnMuz56Zfg

That was a dreadful event of course. Living in a coastal area under sea level is dangerous. But did it lead to the inhabitants of Rotterdam - tne Netherlands' second city - being left without piped water for ten days?

nesf

nacl wrote: »

That was a dreadful event of course. Living in a coastal area under sea level is dangerous. But did it lead to the inhabitants of Rotterdam - tne Netherlands' second city - being left without piped water for ten days?

Eh, those floods destroyed 70,000 homes, I doubt water supply in the area was a major concern. Plus, 1950s so not really comparable to today.

nacl

So back to my question.

Is there anything comparable?

nacl

Today's Examiner has an story about three numbers.

150

300

535

The first number is the rate of water (in m3/sec) the ESB first warned it would release on Thursday.

The second number is the rate it said in its afternoon warning would be released.

The third number is the rate it told us it had released at when we asked what the hell had happened while we slept.

CantGetNoSleep

How high would water have gotten if the dam had burst? Eg would first / second / third floors along Western Road / Victoria Cross etc also be underwater?

nacl

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

How high would water have gotten if the dam had burst? Eg would first / second / third floors along Western Road / Victoria Cross etc also be underwater?

Maybe the ESB would answer that.

They insist there was never any danger to the integrity of the dam structure though.