ESB and City Council at war over flooding

munstercork

Count Hall is closed for the week, with only 70 of the 700 staff relocating to the Model Farm Road.

munstercork

The rest are off with full pay

items

nacl wrote: »

The Sunday Times has this on the evolving story about why no specific warning was issued to the public in the city about what was coming their way.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6927054.ece

Sharon Corcoran, the director of services at Cork county council, said the ESB had not informed them of the gravity of the situation before opening the floodgates. “They told us early on Thursday that they were releasing up to twice as much water as usual. But during a two-hour period they released about four times what would normally be anticipated. We weren’t prepared for that.”

The city council has said that if it had known what was going to happen, it would have launched its emergency plan. The ESB insists the relevant authorities, including councils and the emergency services, had been alerted to the “unprecedented build-up of water” at the dam from early on Thursday.

“The water was released in tandem with the amount flowing into the lake at the dam,” she said. “The actions of those operating the dam reduced flooding down the river and mitigated the damage. It was not something that happened over two hours; water was released over a couple of weeks.”

Accidents happen, the nature of accidents makes it very hard to prepare for them. The follow up after an accident is the most important element.

Which is worse, ESB creating an accident? or incompetence on the Governments part for not having an appropriate plan to deal with any accidents that may happen?

Sponge Bob

AA Roadwatch knew all about it at 4pm on Thursday , read this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055744976

sparklepants

According to the ESB the amount of water flowing into the catchment area was much greater than the amount of water being released through the dam on Thursday evening and Friday morning. They claim that the dam therefore prevented the flood from being even worse. I think that needs to be investigated and if there was human error involved it should be identified.

What's more remarkable is the fact that there was no warning system for most of the people directly affected. Many people living in ground-floor accommodation were awoken in their bedrooms at 2am on Friday morning by the sound of the river flowing through their windows.

Why were these people not alerted? Their lives were needlessly put at risk. For me this is the greatest failing, regardless of what happened at Inniscarra. It's a miracle that no-one was drowned.

cornbb

sparklepants wrote: »

It's a miracle that no-one was drowned.

QFT. A few people have been killed in the UK already.

If there was negligence involved on the part of the ESB, you can be sure the insurance industry will root it out.

Sponge Bob

sparklepants wrote: »

Many people living in ground-floor accommodation were awoken in their bedrooms at 2am on Friday morning by the sound of the river flowing through their windows.

Why were these people not alerted?

That was 100% the fault of Cork City Council who are the emergency planners for Cork City !!!! You will never get a straight answer from your City Manager either given what he was like in Galway .

shoegirl

cornbb wrote: »

think the only reason Cork got hit (and it didn't get hit as badly as Irish towns e.g. Clonmel and Fermoy and quite a few UK towns) is because of the actions of the ESB?

I think the problem is that these places have repeatedly been flooded, on many occasions quite seriously, yet little action takes place to prevent further flooding. A secondary question exists over rezoning in flood plains to enable large amounts of building which may exacerbate the risk of flooding - this has always been an issue in Clonmel in particular.

Look at Mallow - upgraded flood defences gave Bridge St a respite for the first time in years.

Cork city in fairness, is a joke. There isn't even a 24x7 hotline for water emergencies. You ring the Fire Brigade or Gardai if its after 5pm. That now, is a total and utter joke.

Paul91

my tupence worth - i live in a village near Midleton and drive to Mahon every day for work. I also walk my dogs every morning and evening and it's amazing how much more you see when out walking rather than driving.

Fist thing I noticed was last Mon/Tue when we had heavy rains, the stream at the entrance to my estate was actually above the level of the road as the "pipe" under the road was too narrow/blocked to allow the full flow through, causing the stream to back up, the only thing stopping it flooding the road was the ornate wall - which popped in places.

Now the main road outside our estate was resurfaced last year, with new drains put in, but because the guys who did this re-tarmacced the area around the drains higher than the surface of the road, the water actually flows round the majority of them, carrying the water straight down the road and not into the drains - ridiculous, those that are placed correctly are blocked with leaves.

In other areas where i am you see very similar occurances, new estates with drains that are blocked or at a level higher than the road surface which causes the water to "flood" instead of being drained harmlessly into the sea.

You also see this on the dual carriageway into Cork from Midleton, how there weren't fatalities on that road i don't know. The central reservation is actually at a higher level than the road, meaning any water on the road has no where to flow to, why don't they have drains along the central reservation or at least lower it to a level less than that of the road?

All of this is minor in comparsion to the fllooding in Cork, but it's many of these minor floods which come together to make major flooding, if the simple things are done such as draining water away into drains and straight out to sea then possibly the major floods will be less?

munstercork

There is a MEP in place for Cork city but on page 7 where the list of potential emergency problems, there is no listing for flooding from a result of a dam burst or controlled discharge.

SandStone

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

I agree with Seafields, that if the dam had been breached, there would have been a loss of life.

No one is saying the water should have been kept back to the point of letting the dam overflow or burst, just that maybe more of it should have been released in the days leading up to the flood.

IMO the ESB were right in holding back some water, they weren't holding back the whole lot of it - at the end of the day, that young mans parents and family don't even have a body to bury to get some closure (if is as it is thought, he went into the river and drowned - morbid thought I know). I know it will cost money to get Cork back in order and has considerable interference with people's lives (including my college degree due to the Mardyke being destroyed), 99% of it can be replaced; no one died but that young man can never be replaced.

Maybe keeping some water back to help the search for the missing student was the right thing to do, maybe not. But this factor shouldn't be swept under the carpet in any investigation.

thats my opinion on it anyway, let the investigation take place and find a scapegoat like people always seem to need to have, but spare a thought for that young mans family and friends.

There doesn't have to be someone to blame, but it should be determined whether things could have been done better. For example, is it necessary to keep the level of the reservoir high in advance of periods of expected high rainfall? I doubt there's much chance of a drought in the next few months.

items

If you folks are cold down there, burn the Irish Emergency Handbook its no use. I am sure their is a lot a people caught out having not kept large bottles in case of a flood, something should of been mentioned it the book.

rebel girl 15

shoegirl wrote: »

I think the problem is that these places have repeatedly been flooded, on many occasions quite seriously, yet little action takes place to prevent further flooding. A secondary question exists over rezoning in flood plains to enable large amounts of building which may exacerbate the risk of flooding - this has always been an issue in Clonmel in particular.

Look at Mallow - upgraded flood defences gave Bridge St a respite for the first time in years.

Cork city in fairness, is a joke. There isn't even a 24x7 hotline for water emergencies. You ring the Fire Brigade or Gardai if its after 5pm. That now, is a total and utter joke.

Flood didn't reach Bridge Street! Park Road was completely flooded, but they wasted quite a bit of money on raising a part of the road that didn't need to be raised.

Cowen was on today talking about flood defences for Cork

munstercork

Eh not going to happen, just that langer trying to win us over.

rebel girl 15

there was some expert talking about the flooding on RTE news - and he mentioned that there was 90mm of rain on Thursday, double what was forecasted, so the ESB had to release the water. As I've said before, you cannot beat Mother Nature, so despite the best forecasting, they didn't see that coming.

irobmw

The ESB are on all the national stations all day today talking about the release of water from the dam on the Shannon and potential flooding in Limerick. On the Six One news they (I'm assuming Limerick County/City councils) had a number for people in Limerick to call for the 'Flood Emergency'.

Where was all that Thursday/Friday down here?

munstercork

irobmw wrote: »

The ESB are on all the national stations all day today talking about the release of water from the dam on the Shannon and potential flooding in Limerick. On the Six One news they (I'm assuming Limerick County/City councils) had a number for people in Limerick to call for the 'Flood Emergency'.

Where was all that Thursday/Friday down here?

Yeah they know they were wrong and now trying to close the gate after the horse has bolted

nacl

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

there was some expert talking about the flooding on RTE news - and he mentioned that there was 90mm of rain on Thursday, double what was forecasted, so the ESB had to release the water. As I've said before, you cannot beat Mother Nature, so despite the best forecasting, they didn't see that coming.

There was 51.2mm in Cork on Thursday, not 90mm. The forecast was 44mm or so I was told on the previous Monday by someone in the way of knowing.

rebel girl 15

munstercork wrote: »

Yeah they know they were wrong and now trying to close the gate after the horse has bolted

I honestly don't think they knew how much water was going to fall - their forecast was wrong. We got the following email Thursday at 12.40

NOTICE – INCREASED RISK OF FLOODING

We have just been informed, by the Buildings Officer, that the Inniscarra Dam will be releasing significantly more water than usual today. As a result there is an increased risk of flooding in low lying areas adjacent to the river Lee.

All responsible persons are asked to carefully consider the implications of this for their own areas and take any necessary appropriate action.



I'm presuming the buildings officer was informed by the ESB - they also told the Glucksman Gallery (which is right in front of the river) that they could be flooded and the head person (can't think of her title) said today that they had been warned of flooding, but no one thought it would be this bad! I'm not trying to defend the ESB, but if they knew it was that bad, they would have warned the city. They knew about an increased risk - not a deluge!

TetsuoHashimoto

cornbb wrote: »

If there was negligence involved on the part of the ESB, you can be sure the insurance industry will root it out.

Cork's FF political representative has said figures showing that Cork is the Republic's compensation capital should be treated with caution. Michael McGrath and Noel O'Flynn denied people from the high grounds of mayfield and knocknaheeny said they were washed out and drowned and FF's political representatives said these people were not already claiming 'compo'

hugoline

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

there was some expert talking about the flooding on RTE news

His name was Michael McNicholas from the ESBI which confirmed that local authorities and Emergency Services were warned on the Monday and again on the Thursday morning of an increased flood risk. The quoted mail of rebel girl 15 above seems to confirm that.

munstercork wrote: »

Yeah they know they were wrong and now trying to close the gate after the horse has bolted

Do you expect the ESB to come an knock on every door warning the people personally?

I'm sure this was not the first waring released by the ESB over the past years and as there were no serious flooding previousely this one was ignored by the media and the local authority/Emergenc services. If you want a scapegoat, look for it there, although I beleive this was an "act of God", not predictable and not completly avoidable.

nacl

Met Éireann forecast 44mm rain for Thursday as far back as Monday.

Actual rainfall in Cork area on Thursday was 51.2mm.

Did that extra 7.2mm throw the ESB into a panic? Or did they not prepare adequately from Monday onwards?

SeaFields

nacl wrote: »

Met Éireann forecast 44mm rain for Thursday as far back as Monday.

Actual rainfall in Cork area on Thursday was 51.2mm.

Did that extra 7.2mm throw the ESB into a panic? Or did they not prepare adequately from Monday onwards?

The exact figure on the rainfall would not have been that relevant in the overall scheme of the event. It only serves to illustrate the significance of the event. The rain which filled the reservoirs would have fallen in Kerry/West Cork i.e. the upper reaches of the catchment. Local intense rainfall can very dramatically in amounts especially when falling on hills and mountains.

nacl

The Cork figure was the highest of the day in the Cork/Kerry area.

Valentia was 50. Sherkin was 39.

ESB blamed surprisingly heavy rain.

But Met Éireann had told them with a fair degree of accuracy on Monday about the rain that was to come.

SeaFields

Valentia Observatory was 57.4 and as that rain moved eastwards there is the possibility that it was even heavier in some areas as it crossed over mountains. That is really getting into the nitty-gritty details tho.

It will be interesting if they do commission a report to exam the whole thing. Personally I would be more interested in seeing the discharge levels from the dams for the days leading up to the event and the data from the rivers entering the Lee system below the dam. These rivers can account for a substantial amount of the streamflow within the Lee.

nacl

Agreed.

I would also like to see the levels in the dams on Wednesday and Thursday before they let loose and after.

nacl

Here is something about how the ESB is managing the dam above Limerick tonight that might have been useful to the people of Cork on Thursday.

Nicholas Tarrant from the ESB said that while flooding increased in the surrounding areas, no more water would be released tonight. Further discharges will only be made in daylight hours so that people can see the impact immediately.

Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/esb-to-confine-weir-water-discharges-to-daylight-hours-435518.html#ixzz0XjFYhmSA

moceri

I wonder where Liam Buckley was when the Order was given to "open the gates and let her Rip", Perhaps he was busy playing an auld tune on the fiddle.
http://www.esbelectricmail.com/_archives/em_archive/archives/index8d70.html?id=345&cat=2

nacl

moceri wrote: »

I wonder where Liam Buckley was when the Order was given to "open the gates and let her Rip", Perhaps he was busy playing an auld tune on the fiddle.
http://www.esbelectricmail.com/_archives/em_archive/archives/index8d70.html?id=345&cat=2

As most of my experience is in the hydro area I would like to produce a video of all our ESB hydro stations in the country. I know it would be a great way of recording technical information for future generations. It would also be a great help in training.

Comment would be superfluous...

Victor

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

IMO the ESB were right in holding back some water, they weren't holding back the whole lot of it - at the end of the day, that young mans parents and family don't even have a body to bury to get some closure (if is as it is thought, he went into the river and drowned - morbid thought I know). I know it will cost money to get Cork back in order and has considerable interference with people's lives (including my college degree due to the Mardyke being destroyed), 99% of it can be replaced; no one died but that young man can never be replaced.

Risking the living to retrieving the (presumed) dead is never a good strategy.