ESB and City Council at war over flooding

nacl

The Sunday Times has this on the evolving story about why no specific warning was issued to the public in the city about what was coming their way.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6927054.ece

Sharon Corcoran, the director of services at Cork county council, said the ESB had not informed them of the gravity of the situation before opening the floodgates. “They told us early on Thursday that they were releasing up to twice as much water as usual. But during a two-hour period they released about four times what would normally be anticipated. We weren’t prepared for that.”

The city council has said that if it had known what was going to happen, it would have launched its emergency plan. The ESB insists the relevant authorities, including councils and the emergency services, had been alerted to the “unprecedented build-up of water” at the dam from early on Thursday.

“The water was released in tandem with the amount flowing into the lake at the dam,” she said. “The actions of those operating the dam reduced flooding down the river and mitigated the damage. It was not something that happened over two hours; water was released over a couple of weeks.”

munstercork

It is a joke, why they did not release the water on Wednesday knowing what was going to happen on Thursday is crazy

Hogzy

Apparently they thought they would be able to cope with the water from the rain, the reason the water was not released before hand was because of the search for the missing UCC student!

parsi

Hogzy wrote: »

because of the search for the missing UCC student!

The Coastguard choppers are over the South Channel and the Marina at the moment.

Solair

There were large numbers of people searching the North Channel and the Marina and there's a serious search and rescue helicopter flying almost on level with the houses on the Montenotte ridge over the last few minutes.

hugoline

munstercork wrote: »

It is a joke, why they did not release the water on Wednesday knowing what was going to happen on Thursday is crazy

AFAIK an investigation has been launched to look into this.

I have experienced flooding myself after heavy rainfalls where dams were involved and accusations 'thrown' against the people controlling the water flow through these dams.
Subsequent calculations showed that would the whole dam have been completly empty, this would have resulted in a lowering of the flooding of less than half an inch....

I think the outcome of the current investigation will be very similar.

In my opinion the ESB is not to blame here. If they would have kept the water back, the dam could have burst which would result in far greater destruction and definate loss of life.

Owen

hugoline wrote: »

In my opinion the ESB is not to blame here. If they would have kept the water back, the dam could have burst which would result in far greater destruction and definate loss of life.

They're most definitely at fault. They release 8.5 tonnes of water a second, with weather forecasts and tidal charts showing them the carnage it would cause, and still went ahead and did it. They should have been releasing steady lower volume streams of water at low tidal periods knowing a heavy rainfall storm was on the way. A friend's father works for the ESB, and the word internally is that they screwed up.

rotinaj

PaintDoctor wrote: »

They're most definitely at fault. They release 8.5 tonnes of water a second, with weather forecasts and tidal charts showing them the carnage it would cause, and still went ahead and did it. They should have been releasing steady lower volume streams of water at low tidal periods knowing a heavy rainfall storm was on the way. A friend's father works for the ESB, and the word internally is that they screwed up.

It was actually 850 t/ps. I dont know who to blame. Im sure there will be some class of investigation.

rotinaj

nacl wrote: »

The Sunday Times has this on the evolving story about why no specific warning was issued to the public in the city about what was coming their way.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6927054.ece

Sharon Corcoran, the director of services at Cork county council, said the ESB had not informed them of the gravity of the situation before opening the floodgates. “They told us early on Thursday that they were releasing up to twice as much water as usual. But during a two-hour period they released about four times what would normally be anticipated. We weren’t prepared for that.”

The city council has said that if it had known what was going to happen, it would have launched its emergency plan. The ESB insists the relevant authorities, including councils and the emergency services, had been alerted to the “unprecedented build-up of water” at the dam from early on Thursday.

“The water was released in tandem with the amount flowing into the lake at the dam,” she said. “The actions of those operating the dam reduced flooding down the river and mitigated the damage. It was not something that happened over two hours; water was released over a couple of weeks.”

Should of been launched anyway. The dogs on the road knew there was gonna be floods

hugoline

PaintDoctor wrote: »

They release 8.5 tonnes of water a second...

Would you have a source for that? That is the equivalent of 8.5 m3/sec

As a comparison of recent floods, I found the document here (bottom half of page 20), showing that the the Inniscarra dam had a peak flow of 274 m3/sec during the last flood of 2000, and 331 m3/sec during 1996.

I can't find it online at the moment, but thought I read somewhere the ESB released 250 m3/sec this time...

Again, and all this with an estimated inflow of the dam of 380 or 540 m3/sec respectively...

Although an additional 8.5 tones per second... with probably over 250 tonnes per second coming already... that is the half inch I was talking about...

I have to admit, I do not have access to the current numbers and would be grateful if somebody could post them here (like regular flow rate of the Lee and what was measured over the past 72 hours...)

hugoline

Sorry, just saw that now

JimBob85 wrote: »

It was actually 850 t/ps. I dont know who to blame. Im sure there will be some class of investigation.

That makes more sense.. and if that is realy the case, then the ESB would probably have to take some blame.

Any sources for the 850 m3/sec?

Owen

There's a report here from a city council meeting :
http://lauramcgonigle.ie/2009/11/21/cork-city-water-supply-update-2/

800 tonnes per second. My bad!

brandon_flowers

Also the water was being held back earlier in the week while the river was being searched for the missing student, it is really unfortunate set of circumstances. The ESB can not be blamed for releasing the water, maybe it can be blamed for poor PR but no emergency plan is going to stop nature taking its course.

JimBob thanks for the flowrate figure, I was guessing it on another thread.

Owen

brandon_flowers wrote: »

The ESB can not be blamed for releasing the water

Yes they can. They should have been trickling it out before the storm hit, instead of holding back a ridiculous quantity of water. All the information was available to them, forecasts, tidal charts. I know there was a search for the body of the student, but they should have prioritised, and because of their ineptness, there is literally millions of damages after occuring, and all of our house insurance and car insurance renewals will go sky high next year.

brandon_flowers

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Yes they can. They should have been trickling it out before the storm hit, instead of holding back a ridiculous quantity of water. All the information was available to them, forecasts, tidal charts. I know there was a search for the body of the student, but they should have prioritised, and because of their ineptness, there is literally millions of damages after occuring, and all of our house insurance and car insurance renewals will go sky high next year.

I completely understand, we have a house that gets flooded every few years and it is a painful dose. I see an estimate of 300 million in damage, imagine the figure for loss of business.
They cant just let it trickle out, the river was in flood on the City side of the dam before they released it. I am only assuming but I would think the dam level was critical when they had to release the water. I know there will be investigations and the whole lot but really nature will always win no matter what type of prevention measures are put in place.

munstercork

The esb must have know about the storm the high rate of rain that was forecasted, the high tides which everyone knew was going to happen, they ****ed up and MUST be held accountable.

rotinaj

brandon_flowers wrote: »

I completely understand, we have a house that gets flooded every few years and it is a painful dose. I see an estimate of 300 million in damage, imagine the figure for loss of business.
They cant just let it trickle out, the river was in flood on the City side of the dam before they released it. I am only assuming but I would think the dam level was critical when they had to release the water. I know there will be investigations and the whole lot but really nature will always win no matter what type of prevention measures are put in place.

Great post. There is no use blaming anyone. No mater what happened during the week there would of been floods

There has been worse rainfall over shorter periods with high tides in the past and flooding like this was not seen. The holding back of water and subsequent essential release at the dam is the primary cause for the extreme floods in the City. If the ESB cannot acknowledge that they should form a political party and run in the next elections, they clearly have the neck for it.

cornbb

RoverJames wrote: »

There has been worse rainfall over shorter periods with high tides in the past and flooding like this was not seen. The holding back of water and subsequent essential release at the dam is the primary cause for the extreme floods in the City. If the ESB cannot acknowledge that they should form a political party and run in the next elections, they clearly have the neck for it.

They had little choice but to release it, as you say yourself it was essential. What else are they supposed to do?

The rest of the country has experienced worse-than-ever flooding too, the floods in Cork therefore can't solely be the ESB's fault.

Owen

cornbb wrote: »

They had little choice but to release it, as you say yourself it was essential. What else are they supposed to do?

Missing the point! They let the situation get to the point where they had to release a ridiculous quantity of water in one go. What they should have done instead was to release the water a bit at a time - they knew damn well there'd be a storm, and flood warnings, they f*cked up, and ruined peoples businesses, homes, and cars.

SeaFields

I know there is a lot of bitterness and anger out there at the moment and a view that somebody needs to be held accountable. However, I would like to make the following points...

There was unprecedented rainfall last week. Nearly 60mm at Valentia observatory in 24 hours and just over 50mm at Cork airport. These figures are on top of a month up to last week which was already well above average and thus the landscapes ability to retain some of this rainfall was greatly diminished. The rain that was falling was going straight into streams and subsequently straight into the Lee system. Met Eireann have summarized the rainfall events here http://www.met.ie/news/display.asp?ID=38

The city of Cork is built on a flood plain. It is the area of the river system where excess streamflow will occupy during periods of flooding. There has to be an awareness of the risk which come with living in such an environment. Furthermore the boom years saw much development within the Lee valley. This resulted in concrete, impervious surfaces replacing surfaces which in the past would have had an ability to absorb water and release it slowly, during and after the flood event. Instead there is water being channeled directly into the river system. This concept becomes more exaggerated with the more intense the rainfall.

The two dams and reservoirs do a great service to the city in terms of flood management and control. This articles gives a great insight into how the flooding of the Lee system is managed. http://www.opw.ie/hydrology/data/speeches/National%20Hydrology%20Seminar%202001%20No%209%20-%20FLOOD%20RISK%20MANAGEMENT%20-%20STORAGE.pdf One should also note that 30% of the Lee catchment is not flood controlled by the hydroelectric system and there is no control over this streamflow.

Life goes on lads. The losses this time around can be replaced. The loss of life, had the dam breached, would have been been enormous.

grangeglens

SeaFields wrote: »

One should also note that 30% of the Lee catchment is not flood controlled by the hydroelectric system and there is no control over this streamflow.
quote]

so true i'm living in the bride valley, where in some places the flood was over 1 mile wide, worst ever seen, and there are at least 2 or more rivers futher down from the dam

shoegirl

In fairness to ESB late on Thursday night I heard a racket outside that sounded like somebody had turned on a hose. I looked up to see that the gutter on the extension to the place where I live just above the back of my flat was pouring huge volumes of water out over the edge of the gutter straight onto the downstairs paved yard, which had almost 2 inches of water in it by then.

Bear in mind also that the Indian summer meant that leavs fell off trees very suddenly a week or two ago which would have blocked a lot of drains. IMO it remains to be seen how much of a difference ESB could have made by managing the flow more carefully, I think we were heading for some level of flooding anyway.

rebel girl 15

shoegirl wrote: »

Bear in mind also that the Indian summer meant that leavs fell off trees very suddenly a week or two ago which would have blocked a lot of drains. IMO it remains to be seen how much of a difference ESB could have made by managing the flow more carefully, I think we were heading for some level of flooding anyway.

there was a huge amount of rain - there was definately going to be flooding no matter what the ESB did. From my own perspective living near Mallow, it was flooded on Monday, and subsided a bit by Tuesday evening, but there was still quite an amount of water left on the fields, so by the time the rain fell again Thursday, it flooded quite badly again. All over Ireland, there was flooding, not caused by the ESB!

The ground downstream of the dam, and above the dam was just saturated with water anyway. So when the rain fell Thursday, the water didn't go into the ground, it ran off which was going to cause flooding, whereas in other times, the ground would be able to hold it. I agree with Seafields, that if the dam had been breached, there would have been a loss of life.

IMO the ESB were right in holding back some water, they weren't holding back the whole lot of it - at the end of the day, that young mans parents and family don't even have a body to bury to get some closure (if is as it is thought, he went into the river and drowned - morbid thought I know). I know it will cost money to get Cork back in order and has considerable interference with people's lives (including my college degree due to the Mardyke being destroyed), 99% of it can be replaced; no one died but that young man can never be replaced.

thats my opinion on it anyway, let the investigation take place and find a scapegoat like people always seem to need to have, but spare a thought for that young mans family and friends.

You cannot ever ever beat Mother Nature, and the sooner people realise that the better

fastrac

Bandon was flooded worse than Cork and there was no dam involved.I dont know who decides water levels at Inniscarra but it would have been hard to hold back that flood for more than a few hours considering the huge catchment of the Lee and all the smaller rivers that join it above the dam

cornbb

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Missing the point! They let the situation get to the point where they had to release a ridiculous quantity of water in one go. What they should have done instead was to release the water a bit at a time - they knew damn well there'd be a storm, and flood warnings, they f*cked up, and ruined peoples businesses, homes, and cars.

How do you know all the ins and outs of hydroelectric engineering? There have been massive unprecedented floods all over Britain and Ireland, yet you think the only reason Cork got hit (and it didn't get hit as badly as Irish towns e.g. Clonmel and Fermoy and quite a few UK towns) is because of the actions of the ESB?

Looking for a scapegoat is missing the point. We need to deal with the situation, and help out where we can. Pointing the finger can wait.

rebel girl 15

cornbb wrote: »

Looking for a scapegoat is missing the point. We need to deal with the situation, and help out where we can. Pointing the finger can wait.

+1

nacl

It's not either/or. Let's multitask.

buckrodgers

Why isnt there a warning system? I would have assumed that a dam that is so close to the city would have a siren alert at the time of release or at the very least a newspaper alert a few days before. If the dam ever does burst what happens, is there a warning system?

tommmy1979

buckrodgers wrote: »

If the dam ever does burst what happens, is there a warning system?

There's no warning system... i was wondering myself what exactly would happen if the dam burst. It's a good few miles up the lee valley like, would it be a wave of water ?? i don't think so.. more a steady rise in water level i think.

maglite

If the dam does burst dont worry about it. There is a siren on he Dam for when it releases water, but it will not travel for 7-10 miles. Thats one loud noise. Its for the area arround the dam.

There were meia alerts. But in a news paper days before??

munstercork

Count Hall is closed for the week, with only 70 of the 700 staff relocating to the Model Farm Road.

munstercork

The rest are off with full pay

items

nacl wrote: »

The Sunday Times has this on the evolving story about why no specific warning was issued to the public in the city about what was coming their way.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6927054.ece

Sharon Corcoran, the director of services at Cork county council, said the ESB had not informed them of the gravity of the situation before opening the floodgates. “They told us early on Thursday that they were releasing up to twice as much water as usual. But during a two-hour period they released about four times what would normally be anticipated. We weren’t prepared for that.”

The city council has said that if it had known what was going to happen, it would have launched its emergency plan. The ESB insists the relevant authorities, including councils and the emergency services, had been alerted to the “unprecedented build-up of water” at the dam from early on Thursday.

“The water was released in tandem with the amount flowing into the lake at the dam,” she said. “The actions of those operating the dam reduced flooding down the river and mitigated the damage. It was not something that happened over two hours; water was released over a couple of weeks.”

Accidents happen, the nature of accidents makes it very hard to prepare for them. The follow up after an accident is the most important element.

Which is worse, ESB creating an accident? or incompetence on the Governments part for not having an appropriate plan to deal with any accidents that may happen?

Sponge Bob

AA Roadwatch knew all about it at 4pm on Thursday , read this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055744976

sparklepants

According to the ESB the amount of water flowing into the catchment area was much greater than the amount of water being released through the dam on Thursday evening and Friday morning. They claim that the dam therefore prevented the flood from being even worse. I think that needs to be investigated and if there was human error involved it should be identified.

What's more remarkable is the fact that there was no warning system for most of the people directly affected. Many people living in ground-floor accommodation were awoken in their bedrooms at 2am on Friday morning by the sound of the river flowing through their windows.

Why were these people not alerted? Their lives were needlessly put at risk. For me this is the greatest failing, regardless of what happened at Inniscarra. It's a miracle that no-one was drowned.

cornbb

sparklepants wrote: »

It's a miracle that no-one was drowned.

QFT. A few people have been killed in the UK already.

If there was negligence involved on the part of the ESB, you can be sure the insurance industry will root it out.

Sponge Bob

sparklepants wrote: »

Many people living in ground-floor accommodation were awoken in their bedrooms at 2am on Friday morning by the sound of the river flowing through their windows.

Why were these people not alerted?

That was 100% the fault of Cork City Council who are the emergency planners for Cork City !!!! You will never get a straight answer from your City Manager either given what he was like in Galway .

shoegirl

cornbb wrote: »

think the only reason Cork got hit (and it didn't get hit as badly as Irish towns e.g. Clonmel and Fermoy and quite a few UK towns) is because of the actions of the ESB?

I think the problem is that these places have repeatedly been flooded, on many occasions quite seriously, yet little action takes place to prevent further flooding. A secondary question exists over rezoning in flood plains to enable large amounts of building which may exacerbate the risk of flooding - this has always been an issue in Clonmel in particular.

Look at Mallow - upgraded flood defences gave Bridge St a respite for the first time in years.

Cork city in fairness, is a joke. There isn't even a 24x7 hotline for water emergencies. You ring the Fire Brigade or Gardai if its after 5pm. That now, is a total and utter joke.

Paul91

my tupence worth - i live in a village near Midleton and drive to Mahon every day for work. I also walk my dogs every morning and evening and it's amazing how much more you see when out walking rather than driving.

Fist thing I noticed was last Mon/Tue when we had heavy rains, the stream at the entrance to my estate was actually above the level of the road as the "pipe" under the road was too narrow/blocked to allow the full flow through, causing the stream to back up, the only thing stopping it flooding the road was the ornate wall - which popped in places.

Now the main road outside our estate was resurfaced last year, with new drains put in, but because the guys who did this re-tarmacced the area around the drains higher than the surface of the road, the water actually flows round the majority of them, carrying the water straight down the road and not into the drains - ridiculous, those that are placed correctly are blocked with leaves.

In other areas where i am you see very similar occurances, new estates with drains that are blocked or at a level higher than the road surface which causes the water to "flood" instead of being drained harmlessly into the sea.

You also see this on the dual carriageway into Cork from Midleton, how there weren't fatalities on that road i don't know. The central reservation is actually at a higher level than the road, meaning any water on the road has no where to flow to, why don't they have drains along the central reservation or at least lower it to a level less than that of the road?

All of this is minor in comparsion to the fllooding in Cork, but it's many of these minor floods which come together to make major flooding, if the simple things are done such as draining water away into drains and straight out to sea then possibly the major floods will be less?

munstercork

There is a MEP in place for Cork city but on page 7 where the list of potential emergency problems, there is no listing for flooding from a result of a dam burst or controlled discharge.

SandStone

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

I agree with Seafields, that if the dam had been breached, there would have been a loss of life.

No one is saying the water should have been kept back to the point of letting the dam overflow or burst, just that maybe more of it should have been released in the days leading up to the flood.

IMO the ESB were right in holding back some water, they weren't holding back the whole lot of it - at the end of the day, that young mans parents and family don't even have a body to bury to get some closure (if is as it is thought, he went into the river and drowned - morbid thought I know). I know it will cost money to get Cork back in order and has considerable interference with people's lives (including my college degree due to the Mardyke being destroyed), 99% of it can be replaced; no one died but that young man can never be replaced.

Maybe keeping some water back to help the search for the missing student was the right thing to do, maybe not. But this factor shouldn't be swept under the carpet in any investigation.

thats my opinion on it anyway, let the investigation take place and find a scapegoat like people always seem to need to have, but spare a thought for that young mans family and friends.

There doesn't have to be someone to blame, but it should be determined whether things could have been done better. For example, is it necessary to keep the level of the reservoir high in advance of periods of expected high rainfall? I doubt there's much chance of a drought in the next few months.

items

If you folks are cold down there, burn the Irish Emergency Handbook its no use. I am sure their is a lot a people caught out having not kept large bottles in case of a flood, something should of been mentioned it the book.

rebel girl 15

shoegirl wrote: »

I think the problem is that these places have repeatedly been flooded, on many occasions quite seriously, yet little action takes place to prevent further flooding. A secondary question exists over rezoning in flood plains to enable large amounts of building which may exacerbate the risk of flooding - this has always been an issue in Clonmel in particular.

Look at Mallow - upgraded flood defences gave Bridge St a respite for the first time in years.

Cork city in fairness, is a joke. There isn't even a 24x7 hotline for water emergencies. You ring the Fire Brigade or Gardai if its after 5pm. That now, is a total and utter joke.

Flood didn't reach Bridge Street! Park Road was completely flooded, but they wasted quite a bit of money on raising a part of the road that didn't need to be raised.

Cowen was on today talking about flood defences for Cork

munstercork

Eh not going to happen, just that langer trying to win us over.

rebel girl 15

there was some expert talking about the flooding on RTE news - and he mentioned that there was 90mm of rain on Thursday, double what was forecasted, so the ESB had to release the water. As I've said before, you cannot beat Mother Nature, so despite the best forecasting, they didn't see that coming.

irobmw

The ESB are on all the national stations all day today talking about the release of water from the dam on the Shannon and potential flooding in Limerick. On the Six One news they (I'm assuming Limerick County/City councils) had a number for people in Limerick to call for the 'Flood Emergency'.

Where was all that Thursday/Friday down here?

munstercork

irobmw wrote: »

The ESB are on all the national stations all day today talking about the release of water from the dam on the Shannon and potential flooding in Limerick. On the Six One news they (I'm assuming Limerick County/City councils) had a number for people in Limerick to call for the 'Flood Emergency'.

Where was all that Thursday/Friday down here?

Yeah they know they were wrong and now trying to close the gate after the horse has bolted

nacl

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

there was some expert talking about the flooding on RTE news - and he mentioned that there was 90mm of rain on Thursday, double what was forecasted, so the ESB had to release the water. As I've said before, you cannot beat Mother Nature, so despite the best forecasting, they didn't see that coming.

There was 51.2mm in Cork on Thursday, not 90mm. The forecast was 44mm or so I was told on the previous Monday by someone in the way of knowing.

rebel girl 15

munstercork wrote: »

Yeah they know they were wrong and now trying to close the gate after the horse has bolted

I honestly don't think they knew how much water was going to fall - their forecast was wrong. We got the following email Thursday at 12.40

NOTICE – INCREASED RISK OF FLOODING

We have just been informed, by the Buildings Officer, that the Inniscarra Dam will be releasing significantly more water than usual today. As a result there is an increased risk of flooding in low lying areas adjacent to the river Lee.

All responsible persons are asked to carefully consider the implications of this for their own areas and take any necessary appropriate action.



I'm presuming the buildings officer was informed by the ESB - they also told the Glucksman Gallery (which is right in front of the river) that they could be flooded and the head person (can't think of her title) said today that they had been warned of flooding, but no one thought it would be this bad! I'm not trying to defend the ESB, but if they knew it was that bad, they would have warned the city. They knew about an increased risk - not a deluge!

TetsuoHashimoto

cornbb wrote: »

If there was negligence involved on the part of the ESB, you can be sure the insurance industry will root it out.

Cork's FF political representative has said figures showing that Cork is the Republic's compensation capital should be treated with caution. Michael McGrath and Noel O'Flynn denied people from the high grounds of mayfield and knocknaheeny said they were washed out and drowned and FF's political representatives said these people were not already claiming 'compo'