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ESB and City Council at war over flooding

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    #62
    rebel girl 15
    Registered Users, Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 15,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    Victor wrote: »
    Risking the living to retrieving the dead is never a good strategy.

    I know that - but I'm of the opinion that they didn't realise how bad this was going to get, and didn't intentionally set out to risk lives


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    #63
    outsourced_ire
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭outsourced_ire


    Victor wrote: »
    Risking the living to retrieving the (presumed) dead is never a good strategy.


    Just a bit insensitive imo...it was the right thing to do at the time. While releasing the water from the dam played it's part in the flooding, it was a combination of factors that ultimately caused it. Everyone needs to stop pointing the finger and pull together to get on with it.


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    #64
    Owen
    Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    He's not being insensitive, he's pointing out the very obvious, unfortunately political correctness has everyone saying that the ESB did the right thing, when clearly they didn't.

    It's all well and good for us young, techy, able bodied people to sit here on our pedestals and say "Sure we'll get over it, god bless the old ESB for making a silly mistake", but there are elderly people in hotels at the moment, with no homes to return to worth living in - and other vunerable members of society without water and sanitation. Put yourselves in their shoes and tell me the ESB did the right thing.


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    #65
    outsourced_ire
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭outsourced_ire


    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    He's not being insensitive, he's pointing out the very obvious, unfortunately political correctness has everyone saying that the ESB did the right thing, when clearly they didn't.

    It's all well and good for us young, techy, able bodied people to sit here on our pedestals and say "Sure we'll get over it, god bless the old ESB for making a silly mistake", but there are elderly people in hotels at the moment, with no homes to return to worth living in - and other vunerable members of society without water and sanitation. Put yourselves in their shoes and tell me the ESB did the right thing.

    Put yourselves in the shoes of the parents of that poor student and tell me they didn't do the right thing?

    There was unprecedented amounts of rainfall and nobody could've predicted how bad it was going to be. As I said before, it was a combination of SEVERAL factors that lead to the flooding, not just the ESB.


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    #66
    rebel girl 15
    Registered Users, Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 15,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    outsourced_ire wrote: »
    Put yourselves in the shoes of the parents of that poor student and tell me they didn't do the right thing?

    There was unprecedented amounts of rainfall and nobody could've predicted how bad it was going to be. As I said before, it was a combination of SEVERAL factors that lead to the flooding, not just the ESB.


    I was just about to post the same thing - and it was a combination of factors that lead to the worst floods in living memory. Surprised people haven't started b*tching about the Council, their response to the floods was affected by not having enough staff because they had to lay off staff, when I find the figures I'll post them.


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    #67
    Owen
    Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    outsourced_ire wrote: »
    Put yourselves in the shoes of the parents of that poor student and tell me they didn't do the right thing?

    They didnt do the right thing. It's irresponsible of the ESB to risk the lives of the people of Cork for the sake of a hunt for a body which may not have even been in the river in the first place (Even though it was eventually). And yes it is that simple. Now, we have businesses closed in the city, in a time of economic crises. People forced from their homes, and people without the basic requirements for living in a safe and healthy home.

    If it was any other country or city, take New York for example - they would have their priorities on averting the severity of the flood, take any precaution necessary to make sure the impending damage was minimal, and after it had been averted, resume the search for the missing body.
    outsourced_ire wrote: »
    There was unprecedented amounts of rainfall and nobody could've predicted how bad it was going to be. As I said before, it was a combination of SEVERAL factors that lead to the flooding, not just the ESB.

    Argh, this stupid stupid argument again. The rainfall was predicted. Met Eireann said it would be 44/47 mm (Can't remember which), and it was 7mm over that. Not exactly another 40mm of rain like people are suggesting. And yes, it is a combination of factors, but let say the flooding happened anyway, it would have been the usual south terrace flooded a little bit, gate cinema a little bit. With the ESB's help, a few extra million litres were added to the carnage, if they hadn't screwed up, we'd still have drinking and sanitation water too, and a lot of people would still be able to live in their homes.

    The bill for this is going to be in the millions. And everyone's car/home/business insurance next year is going to be sky high, and on top of that, some businesses damaged as a result of the flood may not open again.


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    #68
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,327 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    outsourced_ire wrote: »
    Put yourselves in the shoes of the parents of that poor student and tell me they didn't do the right thing?
    Tell that to the likes of the family of Billy O'Connor. http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0726/risingsun.html?rss


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    #69
    rebel girl 15
    Registered Users, Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 15,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    They didnt do the right thing. It's irresponsible of the ESB to risk the lives of the people of Cork for the sake of a hunt for a body which may not have even been in the river in the first place (Even though it was eventually). And yes it is that simple. Now, we have businesses closed in the city, in a time of economic crises. People forced from their homes, and people without the basic requirements for living in a safe and healthy home.

    The boys phone was found down the Marina, they were pretty certain he was in there.

    I can't understand - do you honestly believe that the ESB would put peoples lives in jeopardy? FFS! Its not that simple - you have not accepted the fact that Mother Nature is a force that you simply cannot underestimate. ESB underestimated it, not on purpose. I got an email that originated from the ESB saying that there was going to be an increased risk of flooding - do you honestly believe that if they thought it was going to be worse they'd keeo stum about it?

    You sound as if you would prefer that the water wasn't left go at all?? They had to leave the water go, there is a catchment area of 370 miles, the water was simply running off into the river as there was no soakage. there was going to be a flood no matter what the ESB did - they choose to leave the water off and prevent the dam bursting, I was told that the river was in flood anyway downstream.

    Economic crisis - yet we have posters here calling for a commission to investigate the incident, money which could be spent on flood defences. No one saw this coming to the extent that it did - otherwise they would have been prepared. As well as that, the Gov limited the army numbers being out, as they were being paid overtime. There are so many factors to consider, not just the one you seem to be fixated on! There is so many if's - and there was a second man who had gone missing on Thursday, not to mention the three other bodies they pulled from the river after the flood


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    #70
    outsourced_ire
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭outsourced_ire


    Victor wrote: »
    Tell that to the likes of the family of Billy O'Connor. http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0726/risingsun.html?rss

    That's quite unfortunate but I'm not quite sure what exactly it has to do with this?

    I honestly don't believe the decision for holding back the water so as not to hamper the search was a pure black and white decision, and I don't think you can just come out and say it was the wrong one. I would hope that you should never go through the pain of having someone belong to you go missing.


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    #71
    Owen
    Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    rebel girl 15 wrote: »
    I can't understand - do you honestly believe that the ESB would put peoples lives in jeopardy? FFS! Its not that simple - you have not accepted the fact that Mother Nature is a force that you simply cannot underestimate. ESB underestimated it, not on purpose. I got an email that originated from the ESB saying that there was going to be an increased risk of flooding - do you honestly believe that if they thought it was going to be worse they'd keeo stum about it?

    Look, you can use the Mother Nature argument all you want. The whole country knew there was a storm coming this weekend, and the ESB kept water building up behind a dam no matter how noble the cause. That's stupidity at it's best. The water should have been release in sequential batches large enough to deplete it to a safe level during the course of the week at low tidal times.

    Of course I know the ESB didn't deliberately put peoples lives in danger.

    Now calm down, posting things like 'FFS', and attacking the poster not the post is against the general boards.ie charter. You're clearly not going to agree with anyone on the otherside of this debate, and most of the anti-esb having foresight party probably won't agree with you either. How about you just agree to disagree and chill?


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    #72
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    I think this discussion just proves the PC point Victor and PaintDoctor are making, really.

    By doing what they did they have annoyed people such as Victor, who are taking a calm and frank approach to the topic.

    If they had opened the gates last week the people they annoyed would be far more likely to raise the roof in condemnation and protest, as seen by rebel girl 15.

    I'm not trying to personalize but what I am saying is that the group advocating keeping the gates closed are clearly more passionate than those advocating letting them open. To avoid controversy the general rule is to appease the passionate.


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    #73
    rebel girl 15
    Registered Users, Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 15,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    Look I apologise for going over the top a bit in asking those questions, but I've had the experience of waiting to see if a relation was found after going into the river. It is a horrible experience. Which made me feel a bit closer to the situation with the missing UCC student, as well as that he was in my year; he walked in the gates of UCC for the same first day that I did. None of us can say for definate how much water was built up, its a strong rumour that may or may not be based in fact IMO so until we get the full facts of the matter, I'll agree to disagree.

    I'm in now way defending the ESB, I'm quite annoyed about the whole thing as it interferes with my college course and a lot of other things, but no one died because of it. After the internal investigation, if there were mistakes made, they'll learn from them.


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    #74
    Owen
    Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    rebel girl 15 wrote: »
    Look I apologise for going over the top a bit in asking those questions, but I've had the experience of waiting to see if a relation was found after going into the river.

    And that's a problem, for someone who has been through trauma like yours, it affects the ability of a person to separate emotional responses from logical responses. It's akin to a Mother who's child died on the road claiming speed is the root of all road fatalities when in truth it's only a contributing factor in less than 5% of road deaths. And I'm genuinely sorry for your loss.
    rebel girl 15 wrote: »
    None of us can say for definate how much water was built up, so until we get the full facts of the matter, I'll agree to disagree.

    Well said, I'm not really pro having a large expensive inquest into this, I'd just rather the Government promise to stablise insurance cost for the coming year, help out those who need it most now in rebuilding their homes, lives and businesses, and the various Councils around the country discuss how best to avoid such catastrophies in the future.


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    #75
    items
    Closed Accounts Posts: 672 ✭✭✭items


    rebel girl 15 wrote: »
    Look I apologise for going over the top a bit in asking those questions, but I've had the experience of waiting to see if a relation was found after going into the river. It is a horrible experience. Which made me feel a bit closer to the situation with the missing UCC student, as well as that he was in my year; he walked in the gates of UCC for the same first day that I did. None of us can say for definate how much water was built up, its a strong rumour that may or may not be based in fact IMO so until we get the full facts of the matter, I'll agree to disagree.

    I'm in now way defending the ESB, I'm quite annoyed about the whole thing as it interferes with my college course and a lot of other things, but no one died because of it. After the internal investigation, if there were mistakes made, they'll learn from them.

    Sorry to hear about the news, I am looking at this from an outsider and I believe the response to the situation is not the best. Accidents always happen the most important thing is what you do after an accident. I don't believe its fair to cast blame towards the ESB, they might or might not have created an accident but when it boils down to it, our Government have a job, its primary role is to look after its citizens and having the Government use the ESB as an excuse for their delayed response doesn't cut it with me.

    Hope you guys return to normality long before Christmas, my heart goes out to you all.


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    #76
    Stargate
    Registered Users Posts: 2,680 ✭✭✭Stargate


    outsourced_ire wrote: »
    Put yourselves in the shoes of the parents of that poor student and tell me they didn't do the right thing?

    There was unprecedented amounts of rainfall and nobody could've predicted how bad it was going to be. As I said before, it was a combination of SEVERAL factors that lead to the flooding, not just the ESB.

    Its easy for some people to say blah blah and it was wrong to hold back the water at the damn , i wonder how different it would be for these people if it was THEIR bother , sister , mother , father , son etc , huh , i for one would not put anything above the value of recovering any of my family had it been any of mine in the river , imagine that poor familys ordeal , jez some people are just ice , money and everything esle before compassion , i know where i stand anyways , we are all entitled to an opinion ,not to prolong this pain over and over re the flooding of the city and bodies missing etc, its all very very sad all round for everyone ,

    Hope we all will get what we want and the people in this city can return to some normality very soon !

    EDIT : Just read they found a body .... how sad ! Terrible news !


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    #77
    indough
    Registered Users Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭indough


    thats all very good and well but youre not supposed to make public policy based on emotional reasons

    RIP to the poor lad though


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    #78
    corkcomp
    Registered Users Posts: 5,114 ✭✭✭corkcomp


    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    Look, you can use the Mother Nature argument all you want. The whole country knew there was a storm coming this weekend, and the ESB kept water building up behind a dam no matter how noble the cause. That's stupidity at it's best. The water should have been release in sequential batches large enough to deplete it to a safe level during the course of the week at low tidal times.

    Of course I know the ESB didn't deliberately put peoples lives in danger.

    Now calm down, posting things like 'FFS', and attacking the poster not the post is against the general boards.ie charter. You're clearly not going to agree with anyone on the otherside of this debate, and most of the anti-esb having foresight party probably won't agree with you either. How about you just agree to disagree and chill?

    there is a lot of mis information being posted here IMO, as somebody who lives a little down stream from the dam, I can tell you that the entire lee valley was flooded for around a week before last Thursday (due to very high rainfall the previous two weeks) so the ESB were not holding back as much water as people think. Considering the river was already flowing well over its banks, even the lsightest increase in release would have caused more wide spread flooding. Also, from speaking with older generations, apparently it was common for Cork city to be under water due to flooding, before the dam was even constructed.


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    #79
    moceri
    Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭moceri


    Yes flooding was common but never on the scale of last Friday. Most of the worst flooding historically occured during Spring Tides and flooding was confined to the low lying Parts of the City: Grand Parade, The South Mall and Oliver Plunkett Street. On this occasion the Western end of the city was the worst affected.

    I still think the ESB have some questions to answer. Although there is severe flooding on the River Shannon at the moment, the ESB are being very cautious about the release at Parteen Weir, as they do not want a repeat of what happenend to Cork occuring in Limerick city.

    I really would like to challenge the excuse that "the Inniscarra Dam was close to bursting" on the basis of "'cos an ESB spokesman said so". Let's have the data evaluated by an independent third party.

    The EU water framwork directive was passed in 2000. In the meantime the South Western River Basin District Management Plan is still only at draft and consultation stage. I dread to think of how much has been spent to date on "Consultancy Fees".

    Someone needs to get off their ass and drive this forward. Management of our Public Rivers needs to be restored to a competent Public body. It seems the ESB are running the show at the moment and Nero (Cowan) fiddles whilst Rome burns.

    http://www.swrbd.ie/index.htm


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    #80
    SandStone
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭SandStone


    Stargate wrote: »
    Its easy for some people to say blah blah and it was wrong to hold back the water at the damn , i wonder how different it would be for these people if it was THEIR bother , sister , mother , father , son etc , huh , i for one would not put anything above the value of recovering any of my family had it been any of mine in the river

    Really, anything? That's the problem. Everyone's welfare has to be considered, not just that of the missing student's family, so it's unfair to portray anyone who disagrees that they got the balance right as heartless. Someone could have died as a result of the flooding.


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    #81
    rebel girl 15
    Registered Users, Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 15,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    Reading the UCC report, ESB started leaving out water Thursday evening (I'm presuming somewhere between 5-6pm) which resulted in catastrophic flooding of the city. The high tide at 9pm passed without incident but was quickly followed by rising river levels which caused the river to burst its banks and flood a large part of the city. The event has been described as a 1:100 or 1:800‐year flood event.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63171861&postcount=6


    Even though they knew there was going to be some flooding, there wasn't enough personnal available to the council, Gov were also being stingy on numbers of army officers available because they were being paid overtime. Quote from Monday's Examiner regarding the council staff cuts "Among those who have not bee replaced when staff have retired or were let go are the outdoor staff attached to the area engineer's office who would have directly dealt with the floods. You also have young planners and engineers who would have been on temporary contracts - they have also not been replaced"

    Sept 08 - 106 non permanent City council staff, Sept 09 41

    Sept 08 - 428 non permanent Cork County council staff, Sept 09 89.


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    #82
    Owen
    Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    rebel girl 15 wrote: »
    Reading the UCC report, ESB started leaving out water Thursday evening (I'm presuming somewhere between 5-6pm) which resulted in catastrophic flooding of the city.

    Thanks RebelGirl, I came to post the same bulletin.


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    #83
    cornbb
    Registered Users Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭cornbb


    rebel girl 15 wrote: »
    Reading the UCC report, ESB started leaving out water Thursday evening (I'm presuming somewhere between 5-6pm) which resulted in catastrophic flooding of the city

    This can't be taken as fact - correlation does not imply causation - therefore it can't be taken for granted that the actions of the ESB were wholly responsible for the extent of the flooding. I'm sure it certainly didn't help matters, but bear in mind that many parts of the country experienced unprecedented severe flooding where there were no dams involved. Therefore we can't say that the same thing wouldn't have happened in Cork if the dam wasn't taken into account.

    Just watching pictures of Cork flooding on Prime Time, it really is shocking what happened, but I hope once the dust has settled the matter is investigated in a sensible and impartial manner and that we don't simply go looking for a scapegoat. Preventing this from happening again is the important thing.


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    #84
    rebel.ranter
    Registered Users Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭rebel.ranter


    moceri wrote: »
    .... to a competent Public body.....

    There's an oxymoron if I ever heard one! Do you really think a "public body" would have done any better?


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    #85
    Outkast_IRE
    Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    a 1:100 or 1:800 year flood come off it those figures are off the top of someones head .
    There has been flooding a few times in the last decade not to the same extent i know but its not goin to be 100 years before a repeat , i would be surprised if we went over a decade or two without seeing somethin as bad or worse.
    All it takes is a few factors to work against us and it will burst the banks , imagine if the tide had been coming in this time it would be so much worse then


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    #86
    rebel girl 15
    Registered Users, Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 15,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    cornbb wrote: »
    This can't be taken as fact - correlation does not imply causation - therefore it can't be taken for granted that the actions of the ESB were wholly responsible for the extent of the flooding. I'm sure it certainly didn't help matters, but bear in mind that many parts of the country experienced unprecedented severe flooding where there were no dams involved. Therefore we can't say that the same thing wouldn't have happened in Cork if the dam wasn't taken into account.

    Just watching pictures of Cork flooding on Prime Time, it really is shocking what happened, but I hope once the dust has settled the matter is investigated in a sensible and impartial manner and that we don't simply go looking for a scapegoat. Preventing this from happening again is the important thing.

    Yeah, preventation better than cure!

    the first three words were my own words, rest except for the part in brackets was from the report.

    Look at Mallow, millions spent on flood relief, and yes it did prevent Bridge Street from flooding, but the Park Road was still a washout! I think they're not gonna do any more, and just leave the Park flood anyway - still quite a bit of water there, started to come out onto the road last night! I've never seen it that high for a while!! The river was only a foot and a half from the mark on the bridge placed during the height of the 1980 flood, one of the worst to hit Mallow.


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    #87
    rebel girl 15
    Registered Users, Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 15,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    Outkast_IRE wrote: »
    a 1:100 or 1:800 year flood come off it those figures are off the top of someones head .
    There has been flooding a few times in the last decade not to the same extent i know but its not goin to be 100 years before a repeat , i would be surprised if we went over a decade or two without seeing somethin as bad or worse.
    All it takes is a few factors to work against us and it will burst the banks , imagine if the tide had been coming in this time it would be so much worse then

    It won't be 100 years before another one, climate change experts have warned!

    Tide was in at 9pm, yet it was only after that the worst of the flooding occurred?? What time did the wall of the Mercy collapse? Think it was when the tide was coming in??


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    #88
    sean_84
    Registered Users Posts: 116 ✭✭sean_84


    rebel girl 15 wrote: »
    It won't be 100 years before another one, climate change experts have warned!

    Tide was in at 9pm, yet it was only after that the worst of the flooding occurred?? What time did the wall of the Mercy collapse? Think it was when the tide was coming in??

    I really don't think the collapse of the wall at the Mercy was of much importance to the level of flooding. Water was coming from the western road, and the mardyke parade anyway. The collapse of this small section of wall has been mentioned lots in the media, but when you look at it, it was quite a small section, and anyway, it's not a flood protection wall, it's full of holes for draining rain water from the road.

    I don't think it is a 1:800 or 1:100 years event. There are maps showing predicted flood areas in cork. The area that was flooded looks to be in an area that currently has a 1 in 10 chance flooding in any given year. See here: http://www.leecframs.ie/


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    #89
    sean_84
    Registered Users Posts: 116 ✭✭sean_84


    About the topic:

    Without looking at data such as rainfall, level of water in the dam, level of the river in the city, forecast over the last few weeks etc., it's impossible to say who was at fault. The Inniscarra and Carrigadrohid dams have been mentioned in previous reports as being incapable of stopping some floods, as they're just not big enough. So perhaps it didn't matter when the ESB opened up the flood gates, it would have flooded anyway.


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    #90
    corkcomp
    Registered Users Posts: 5,114 ✭✭✭corkcomp


    cornbb wrote: »
    This can't be taken as fact - correlation does not imply causation - therefore it can't be taken for granted that the actions of the ESB were wholly responsible for the extent of the flooding. I'm sure it certainly didn't help matters, but bear in mind that many parts of the country experienced unprecedented severe flooding where there were no dams involved. Therefore we can't say that the same thing wouldn't have happened in Cork if the dam wasn't taken into account.

    Just watching pictures of Cork flooding on Prime Time, it really is shocking what happened, but I hope once the dust has settled the matter is investigated in a sensible and impartial manner and that we don't simply go looking for a scapegoat. Preventing this from happening again is the important thing.

    very true

    keep in mind that the river was flooded down stream from the dam for almost a week before Thursday so it was not like the ESB were not releasing water all the time .. on Thursday around 3pm they had to increase the flow, there was no other option .. what about all the properties and peoples homes upstream from the dam, should they have been submerged just to protect the city? Even if the dam was not present, I doubt there would have been much difference to the level of water, i.e. it has to go somewhere!


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    #91
    themonboys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 269 ✭✭themonboys


    ESB spokesperson on the radio said that they were releasing water from the dam since the Monday before the flooding.


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