Ufc 104 predictions? Spoiler warning!

Pride Fighter

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Cecil Peoples defends their judging: http://cagereport.net/Cecil-Peoples-I-believe-Lyoto-won-the-fight-clearly.html

Leg kicks don't finish fights. :rolleyes:

Has he ever heard of Bas Rutten or Marco Ruas?

Mellor

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Your more then likely wrong there...... when the UFC came to Dublin, you could purchase an ear piece for E10 that would tune you into the commentary, they were quite popular, i doubt very much this was in Dublin alone.... so yes, the commentary could very well have played a part

While they are available, I doubt that enough people buy them to have an impact.The majority still based their views on what they see and nothing else

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

I can understand why the judges might of edged it to Macheda as in my opinion, they could of gave him the first 3 rounds.

Two judges game the first three to Lyoto,
The other judge gave rua rounds 1 and 5 with Machida getting round 4.

calex71

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Cecil Peoples defends their judging: http://cagereport.net/Cecil-Peoples-I-believe-Lyoto-won-the-fight-clearly.html

Leg kicks don't finish fights. :rolleyes:

Cecil must have missed Forest V Rampage

pierrot

calex71 wrote: »

Cecil must have missed Forest V Rampage

Or Jardine v Meat Truck

Lord Muck

Just terrible. I've watched the fight three times now, Shogun won at least 4 rounds. A rematch is no proper compensation for him being robbed of this match. Disgusted in this result

dunkamania

http://www.mmascraps.com/2009/10/who-do-you-think-won.html

The above link has a graph of hit percentages, can someone embed it please

Professey Chin

So shogun hit him twice as much but not as effectively apparently :rolleyes:

dunkamania

More headshots by Rua too, and amazingly against Machida, a greater degree of accuracy.

Professey Chin

Sherdog interview with Machida

Following his controversial unanimous decision over Mauricio “Shogun” Rua at UFC 104, UFC light heavyweight champion Lyoto Machida discussed the fight via phone with Sherdog.com’s Marcelo Alonso.

“I thought it was a very even and tough fight,” Machida said. “I had the opportunity to see the fight again and I thought I won four rounds and Shogun took the last one. Some people say he won the fourth and fifth round, but for sure I won at least the first three rounds. The American commentators were pretty much biased. If you see the fight without audio, you will probably see a different fight.

“Shogun was a great opponent and had a nice strategy. He deserves all my respect as a fighter, but I was superior. I had three or four chances to finish the fight, and he never put me in danger. I didn’t get (dazed) at any moment of the fight, but I put him in danger three or four times. He kicked my legs a couple of times, but he wouldn’t knock me out with that.”

Machida guaranteed that his disappointed expression immediately after the fight did not stem from a belief that he had lost.

“My leg started to hurt in the fifth round, and I was very upset that I couldn’t knock him out as I had planned,” Machida said. “I had two chances where I felt him really (dazed), but I lost it and I get really upset when I leave the decision in the judges’ hands.”

After confirming that he totally agrees with a rematch, Machida also addressed UFC President Dana White’s statement that he thought Shogun was the winner.

“Anyone who has a mouth can talk. I respect his opinion and I’m ready to fight Shogun or any other challenger UFC decides, but I would like to say that this fight was not judged by myself, my father or Anderson Silva,” Machida said. “This fight was judged by professionals, so I’m pretty much comfortable with the result.”

After taking two weeks vacation in Hawaii with his family, Lyoto is planning to return to his training routine in Belém.

“It’s time to celebrate the win and relax from the hard training routine,” he said. “After that I will check what happened to my hand (it’s hurt), if it needs some surgery, then analyze my mistakes in this fight carefully with my family to restart my training routine. No matter who is my next opponent, I’ll give some rest to my mind and body and return 100 percent to the training to get ready for my next challenge. If it’s Shogun again, I’ll study his game and make a different strategy to please the fans with a better fight.”

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/machida-i-was-superior-20576

Can someone point out these 3/4 fight finishing chances
I can think of one and he got a caught hard with a hook during it that stopped him

Chewabacca

Without a doubt worst decision in a high-profile fight since Bisping vs. Hammill.

To say that the commentary influenced the fans is complete nonsense and I've lost most, if not all, respect for Machida since reading the Sherdog article. Complete robbery, Shogun fought the perfect fight. He did what most people thought would take years to do, figuring out Machida.

Nothing short of robbery.

calex71

I nearly wet my self when I read

Machida - I had three or four chances to finish the fight

He should do stand up comedy, thats pure gold

Bubs101

calex71 wrote: »

I nearly wet my self when I read He should do stand up comedy, thats pure gold

He's probably talking about throwing in the towel.

Although the decision was pathetically bad just like Lesnar vs. Mir 2 I'm confident I'll enjoy the second one more than the first because this has added a **** load of spice to it and will make the casual fan care far more about Shogun than had he won

RealJohn

Having just watched the fight, I really can't see how people can be so upset with the decision. I can see why people could give it to Shogun certainly but how anyone can claim he dominated the fight is beyond me. He simply didn't.

Personally I scored it 48-47 Machida (2, 3 and 5 to Machida, 1 and 4 to Shogun) but I wouldn't have argued a reversal on that or even 4 rounds to 1 either way as the only rounds I considered decisively won were 3 (Machida) and 4 (Shogun). All of the other rounds could have gone either way in my book.

Rogan and Goldberg were talking Shogun up from start to finish and I think this might have swayed some of you (not all by any stretch. I'm well aware that a large number of people posting are no strangers to the sport and know what they're talking about). They were very impressed by how well Shogun was countering Machida and so was I to be honest. However, a lot of the time, Shogun was countering shots that landed. He wasn't avoiding and countering every time. A lot of the time, he was taking a shot and giving one back. That doesn't put him ahead in my book.

Yes, Shogun was hitting Machida with good shots over the course of the fight but anytime there was a major exchange, Machida was the one who got the better of it. This is worth noting.

As has been pointed out, Cecil People's explanation of how he scored the fight included "leg kicks certainly don't do [end fights]". We of course know that this is not the case. However, I ask all of you, was there any stage that Shogun's leg-kicks looked like they were going to end this fight? I certainly didn't think so. Leg-kicks can end fights but that doesn't mean that because you're landing a lot of leg-kicks, you're closer to ending the fight.

Machida landed more effectively to the head in my opinion and was also more effective to the body with his clinch knees than Shogun was with his kicks. It's subjective and to be fair, if the fight was to go on for another 5 rounds, you'd probably be backing Shogun to finish it but the fact is, neither of them came close to finishing the fight inside the 5 rounds and of their respective tactics, I'd have to say that Machida's were more likely to end this fight inside 5 rounds.

I think there were a few significant incidents in rounds 2, 3 and 5 that swung the fight for Machida and while I wouldn't have complained if the decision had gone the other way (like I said), I can't call this a bad decision.

That said, I don't really want to see a rematch, however much Shogun might deserve one. I thought it was one of the dullest stand-up fights I've ever seen. I think Machida needs to outclass his opponents to be entertaining and he couldn't do that to Shogun.

I'm tired now.

Pride Fighter

RealJohn wrote: »

Having just watched the fight, I really can't see how people can be so upset with the decision. I can see why people could give it to Shogun certainly but how anyone can claim he dominated the fight is beyond me. He simply didn't.

Personally I scored it 48-47 Machida (2, 3 and 5 to Machida, 1 and 4 to Shogun) but I wouldn't have argued a reversal on that or even 4 rounds to 1 either way as the only rounds I considered decisively won were 3 (Machida) and 4 (Shogun). All of the other rounds could have gone either way in my book.

Rogan and Goldberg were talking Shogun up from start to finish and I think this might have swayed some of you (not all by any stretch. I'm well aware that a large number of people posting are no strangers to the sport and know what they're talking about). They were very impressed by how well Shogun was countering Machida and so was I to be honest. However, a lot of the time, Shogun was countering shots that landed. He wasn't avoiding and countering every time. A lot of the time, he was taking a shot and giving one back. That doesn't put him ahead in my book.

Yes, Shogun was hitting Machida with good shots over the course of the fight but anytime there was a major exchange, Machida was the one who got the better of it. This is worth noting.

As has been pointed out, Cecil People's explanation of how he scored the fight included "leg kicks certainly don't do [end fights]". We of course know that this is not the case. However, I ask all of you, was there any stage that Shogun's leg-kicks looked like they were going to end this fight? I certainly didn't think so. Leg-kicks can end fights but that doesn't mean that because you're landing a lot of leg-kicks, you're closer to ending the fight.

Machida landed more effectively to the head in my opinion and was also more effective to the body with his clinch knees than Shogun was with his kicks. It's subjective and to be fair, if the fight was to go on for another 5 rounds, you'd probably be backing Shogun to finish it but the fact is, neither of them came close to finishing the fight inside the 5 rounds and of their respective tactics, I'd have to say that Machida's were more likely to end this fight inside 5 rounds.

I think there were a few significant incidents in rounds 2, 3 and 5 that swung the fight for Machida and while I wouldn't have complained if the decision had gone the other way (like I said), I can't call this a bad decision.

That said, I don't really want to see a rematch, however much Shogun might deserve one. I thought it was one of the dullest stand-up fights I've ever seen. I think Machida needs to outclass his opponents to be entertaining and he couldn't do that to Shogun.

I'm tired now.

You are wrong in many ways, the following is the breakdown of the fight as compiled by fightmetric

round 1- Rua 19 landed strikes, machida 11 landed strikes.
Rua landed two power strikes to the head to machida's one, while landing 17 power kicks to Machidas 9.

round 2- Rua 21, Machida 7. Machida landed 2 power shots to the head, Rua landed 0. Rua landed 20 power kicks to the body and legs, Machida landed 4.

round 3- Rua 19, Machida 15. dead even at 5 power shots to the head each. 13 power kicks for Rua, 6 for Machida.

round 4- Rua 10, Machida 3 total strikes. 2 power shots to the head for Rua, 0 for Machida. 9 power kicks for Rua, 2 for Machida.


round 5- Rua 13, Machida 6 total strikes. 4 power strikes to the head for Rua, 0 for Machida. Both fighters landed 5 power kicks.


How anyone can think Machida won is mind boggling.

RealJohn

You can use statistics to prove anything. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, the fight was very close and neither fighter did anything to decisively win any round. How can any of you be so upset that Machida was given a close decision?

You can quote numbers if you like but I wasn't counting, I was watching a fight and judging it based on my understanding of the scoring system (which is a little grey, to be fair).

Alternatively, you could look at the criteria they claim the fights are scored on: striking, grappling, agression and octagon control.
Striking - Shogun was more consistent but Machida landed better combinations. Could call it either way (I can't remember enough to go into round by round right now).
Grappling - don't think it occured in every round but as People's pointed out when he was defending his decision, Shogun made a few unsucessful takedown attempts and as I said already, clinch striking went to Machida (in my opinion) so that category is Machida's if you ask me.
Agression - Shogun was coming forward for the majority of the fight but it was very methodical and he did a lot of counter-striking. Debatable whether you could call that agression or not. Machida was on the back-foot most of the time but when he was attacking, he was definitely more aggressive than Shogun was. Hard one to call. An argument could be made for either fighter in that category.
Octagon control - I don't agree with People's that Machida displayed effective octagon control by backing off and picking his spots but that is the way he usually fights (and Chuck Liddell used to fight in a similar manner). I don't think Shogun walking him down constitutes octagon control either. If he was controlling, he would have been able to trap Machida and land at will. Once again, there was no clear winner in this category.

Now I know you'd have to do that analysis round by round to really use it as an argument but I think that illustrates that it was a close enough fight that being up in arms about Shogun being robbed is a bit excessive.

I don't dispute that maybe Shogun won the fight (though personally, I scored it to Machida). I'm just saying it wasn't as clear-cut as a lot of you are making out and I'm baffled by how you can all be so upset. Comparing it to Bisping and Hamill is a joke.

chopperbyrne

RealJohn wrote: »

Grappling - don't think it occured in every round but as People's pointed out when he was defending his decision, Shogun made a few unsucessful takedown attempts and as I said already, clinch striking went to Machida (in my opinion) so that category is Machida's if you ask me.

Shogun destroyed him in the clinch. Dozens of unanswered knees to the legs which lowered his mobilty and almost always an elbow or punch when they parted.

Pride Fighter

RealJohn wrote: »

You can use statistics to prove anything. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, the fight was very close and neither fighter did anything to decisively win any round. How can any of you be so upset that Machida was given a close decision?

You can quote numbers if you like but I wasn't counting, I was watching a fight and judging it based on my understanding of the scoring system (which is a little grey, to be fair).

Alternatively, you could look at the criteria they claim the fights are scored on: striking, grappling, agression and octagon control.
Striking - Shogun was more consistent but Machida landed better combinations. Could call it either way (I can't remember enough to go into round by round right now).
Grappling - don't think it occured in every round but as People's pointed out when he was defending his decision, Shogun made a few unsucessful takedown attempts and as I said already, clinch striking went to Machida (in my opinion) so that category is Machida's if you ask me.
Agression - Shogun was coming forward for the majority of the fight but it was very methodical and he did a lot of counter-striking. Debatable whether you could call that agression or not. Machida was on the back-foot most of the time but when he was attacking, he was definitely more aggressive than Shogun was. Hard one to call. An argument could be made for either fighter in that category.
Octagon control - I don't agree with People's that Machida displayed effective octagon control by backing off and picking his spots but that is the way he usually fights (and Chuck Liddell used to fight in a similar manner). I don't think Shogun walking him down constitutes octagon control either. If he was controlling, he would have been able to trap Machida and land at will. Once again, there was no clear winner in this category.

Now I know you'd have to do that analysis round by round to really use it as an argument but I think that illustrates that it was a close enough fight that being up in arms about Shogun being robbed is a bit excessive.

I don't dispute that maybe Shogun won the fight (though personally, I scored it to Machida). I'm just saying it wasn't as clear-cut as a lot of you are making out and I'm baffled by how you can all be so upset. Comparing it to Bisping and Hamill is a joke.

I have proven you wrong with evidence. You have done nothing of the sort. Look at the following evidence. Shogun lands 84 strikes, Machida 42. Shogun lands more strikes in EVERY ROUND of the fight. Shogun pressed the fight, Shogun dominated the clinch (dont you remember Shogun elbowing at the break of every clinch?). This was robbery, plain and simple.

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

So shogun hit him twice as much but not as effectively apparently :rolleyes:

Pride Fighter wrote: »

round 1- Rua 19 landed strikes, machida 11 landed strikes.
Rua landed two power strikes to the head to machida's one, while landing 17 power kicks to Machidas 9.

round 2- Rua 21, Machida 7. Machida landed 2 power shots to the head, Rua landed 0. Rua landed 20 power kicks to the body and legs, Machida landed 4.

round 3- Rua 19, Machida 15. dead even at 5 power shots to the head each. 13 power kicks for Rua, 6 for Machida.

round 4- Rua 10, Machida 3 total strikes. 2 power shots to the head for Rua, 0 for Machida. 9 power kicks for Rua, 2 for Machida.


round 5- Rua 13, Machida 6 total strikes. 4 power strikes to the head for Rua, 0 for Machida. Both fighters landed 5 power kicks.


How anyone can think Machida won is mind boggling.

RealJohn

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I have proven you wrong with evidence.

Hold on a minute now, you've proven nothing. You've provided statistics. That's all. If you want to go with hard facts, the fact that all three judges agree with me is all the "proof" I need.

I'll repeat again, I'm not saying Machida definitely won't and that it is indisputable. Personally, based on how I understand the scoring system, I think he won. I can see why people would disagree. Fair enough if they do. I'm not proclaiming to be right and that everyone who disagrees is wrong.

Also, just on a point of interest, while Shogun landed more strikes overall, if you take out the leg-kicks (the ones least likely to end the fight directly), Machida landed more. This doesn't prove my point but it's a fact worth taking on board. (and of course if you only take headshots into account, Shogun is back on top)

You're getting very worked up about all of this. Are you related to Shogun?

cokedrinker

Before this fight, i was indifferent to the outcome - both are quality fighters, and all i was hoping for was to see glimpses of a shogun recapturing his form from pride days.
The man is only 27 and has shown that he is returning to (and will hopefully surpass) his best. I will be 100% behind him in the rematch, and i would friggin love for him to - first of all win it, and then defend it successfully vs AS.

rovert

RealJohn wrote: »

Hold on a minute now, you've proven nothing. You've provided statistics. That's all. If you want to go with hard facts, the fact that all three judges agree with me is all the "proof" I need.

I dont know if this is a troll job or not.

The judges are widely regarded as being highly incompetent so that is where your argument fails.

chopperbyrne

Anyone read the recent issue of Fighters Only?

It had a feature on how to judge properly.

Kent Brockman

Watched the fight live, thought Shogun stuck to his game plan and dominated the fight.Seemed to neutralize Machida (apart from one flurry near the end of 2nd or 3rd round?)
Although he never seemed to have the champ in any serious trouble I thought Rua was a clear winner. (I wonder how it would have been scored if it wasn't a title fight?)

As for decisions- did anyone see Ricco Rodriguez v Big Nog in Pride a few years back? Total robbery!

Tim_Murphy

The judges are widely regarded as being highly incompetent so that is where your argument fails.

By who? Is that why they have been used over and over again. (Well Cecil Peoples and Hamilton have anyway, can't remember who the third was)

I thought it was a clear win for Rua but I wasn't looking at the fight from trying to judge it as I went along. Certainly the first few rounds were quite close so maybe all the hyberbole about the decision is just that.

Oh, and lol at people getting all worked up over somebody having the cheek to think that Machida might have actually won. You'd nearly think ye were teammates of Rua. :rolleyes:

John, you do Karate right? That's probably why you think Machida won!:D;)

Rugger7

I definately think Shogun was robbed, he seemed to go out and try to win. Machida looked like he wanted to stick to his usual counter-attack strategy, but didn't even do that as good as he usually does.

rovert

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

By who?

UFC management, the MMA press and fans etc.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Is that why they have been used over and over again.

That is no real indicator of competency.

Tim_Murphy

rovert wrote: »

UFC management, the MMA press and fans etc.

Did the UFC management and the press label incompetent before or after the fight the last night?

That is no real indicator of competency.

If the UFC management regarded some of their regular judges as being incompetent then it hard to believe that they would not have something about it.

Roper

LOL at people getting worked up.

It wasn't that close a fight IMO, I thought it was a clear Shogun win and I watched it after I knew the result so was looking for what the judges might have seen from Machida. I love Machida I think he's an excellent, smart fighter but I thought he was out-thought and out-fought. That being said, if someone disagrees and thinks that Machida won, I'm not going to be insulting to them, I'm going to endeavour to discuss and enjoy debating the result with them. That's why it's a sport and not WWE- nobody is the villain here it's just a controversial sports result. They happen all the time in every game in the world and it's usually the officials who cause it.

johnny_adidas

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

If the UFC management regarded some of their regular judges as being incompetent then it hard to believe that they would not have something about it.

the UFC dont provide the judges

Kazooie

I don't think the UFC get to pick the judges though. That's up to the Athletic comissions right?

dunkamania

Correct, in this case, the California State Athelethic Commission, CSAC.

The CSAC is also responsible for the following, as well as as some sexual harrassment stuff too:


Suspending fighters for ‘faking a fight’ because one of them did a cartwheel pass.

Suspending Josh Thomson for wearing a t-shirt calling Frank Shamrock a bitch.

Allowing an HIV positive fighter to fight

Allowing an Hep C positive fighter to fight

Trying to cancel Frank Shamrock vs Phil Baroni over bogus health concerns

Hilariously inconsistent policy on cutting steroid suspensions in half

Refusing to license foreign refs who have had over 13 years worth of reffing experience

Re-licensed Mike Kyle, who assaulted another fighter with multiple illegal blows and had to be pulled off his victim by several referees

Cancelling events at the last second for bogus reasons

Delaying the Sean Sherk steroid thing forever because of complete ineptitude … not bothering to read the information Sherk’s lawyer sent them in advance

Constant delays in the Sean Sherk steroid case

Suspending Nick Diaz for weed without testing Nick Diaz for weed

Constantly cancelling fights at the literal last second

Demanding a bond covering TWICE the amount of fighter pay

Deviating from the Unified rules definition of ‘back of the head’

Cancelling Joe Riggs’ fight for a drug Riggs didn’t have in his system

Cancelling Aleks Emelianenko vs Paul Buentello seconds before Aleks was supposed to step on the scales for the weigh-in

Announcing failed steroid tests before confirmation