Should I tell the Gardai?

oflahero

hivemindx wrote: »

Registered to post this...

6 or 7 years ago I was cycling south on the N11 (Stillorgan Road) on the off road cycle path. I wanted to turn right on to Brewery Road so I dismount from the cycle path in to the bus land about 200m from the lights.

I know the very spot, and there is a very prominent 'YIELD TO WEAVING CYCLISTS' sign with helpful pointy arrows there at the approach to the lights. Couldn't get much clearer. It's well obvious cyclists have to cross lanes to get where they want to go - your bus driver is quite the twunt.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Go to the guards, but don't expect much action from them.

This is a regular occurance on the Malahide Rd heading into town, between the Oscar Traynor Rd Junction and the Artane Roundabout and again in Drumcondra - places where the cycle lanes are run over footpaths so cyclists prefer to stay on the road where it 'should' be safer - except then we've got bus driver's trying to intimidate us back onto the pavements!.

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Hungrycol

Beginning to think that my commute from Swords to town is pretty good after all. Only had one very close call from a private coach driver through Drumcondra. The attitude of a driver operating a 4 or 5 tonne bus thinks scaring cyclists to "teach them a lesson" is frighteningly irresponsible.

The_Claw

I had a similar thing a couple of weeks ago in D7. I was cycling down Blackhall Place towards quays - a bus was stopped in front of me so I checked behind me, saw another bus a good way back, signalled right to overtake the stationary bus. The second bus blew his horn and flew past me right through a red light. I was astonished - caight up with him at the next red light at the quays (which is as far as his aggressive driving and light-breaking had got him) where he was waiting at his door to give out to me for "pulling out in front of him". I told him I'd checked to see how far back he was and I was perfectly within my rights to overtake the stopped bus. The rage in this guy's face was really frightening. So angry, like a little gargoyle. When we turned onto the quays he swerved the bus in right in front of me - no doubt to "teach me a lesson". I couldn't believe it. Someone above says most bus drivers are sound - I don't know about that. Dublin Bus are a law unto themselves and the fact that there appear to be several drivers who are willing to risk actually killing someone speaks volumes about the culture of impunity and incompetence that permeates the company. Convict, I hope you get somewhere with this. IMHO they're the single most dangerous thing about driving in Dublin.

tomasrojo

Micheal Rapping Elf wrote: »

Go to the guards, but don't expect much action from them.

This is a regular occurance on the Malahide Rd heading into town, between the Oscar Traynor Rd Junction and the Artane Roundabout and again in Drumcondra - places where the cycle lanes are run over footpaths so cyclists prefer to stay on the road where it 'should' be safer - except then we've got bus driver's trying to intimidate us back onto the pavements!.

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I've seen the intimidation in Drumcondra, just outside the Bishop's Palace.

Oddly enough, those ones in Drumcondra aren't mandatory. They don't have the Cycle Track sign, just the "parent and child standing beside a bike" sign, which has no legal meaning.

The northbound cycle track is particulary daft: it raises you high in the air relative to the road and then makes you yield at every side road. So it's both exhausting for the unfit, and pointlessly slow. Somewhat hazardous too. Why wouldn't you use the road instead, absent intimidation?

tomasrojo

I have to say that bar one or two incidents, I find Dublin Bus drivers are at least ok, and sometimes very courteous. I often get an appreciative wave when I've obviously stopped to let them through a junction or narrow road. The intimidation I saw in Drumcondra that I mention above was by private coaches.

Gavin

That particular northbound route is quite dangerous on the road as there is no bail out option with the railings on the left. When cycling that route, I would nearly always go onto the cycle path

tomasrojo

Gavin wrote: »

That particular northbound route is quite dangerous on the road as there is no bail out option with the railings on the left. When cycling that route, I would nearly always go onto the cycle path

It's funny though, I used it for years without a problem. Then they add that very poor facility, and non-mandatory facility at that, and it becomes much harder to use. I don't go north along that route much any more, so it doesn't affect me directly, but what a gip, honestly.

Taltos

+1 in reporting it to the Gardai.
Definitely have something on file for that area and that driver just in case anything happens later to someone else.

In terms of Dublin Bus though - I have not had any issues with them and indeed find them on my route really sensitive to passing me out. Talking about along the Kylemore road and around Blanch coming to the business park.
Sometimes I use the cycle lane - sometimes not on the return journey from the park to the hospital - and while I feel guilty for not using it - after going on it today to see it littered in glass and again having to stop at junctions where if I was on the road I would have right of way I think I will be using the road in future.

I am hoping that the guy who you met was a rarity - just hope that they do not move him onto either of my routes to teach the rest of us a lesson instead of him.

Let us know how you get on though.

CheGuedara

The_Claw wrote: »

Convict, I hope you get somewhere with this. IMHO they're the single most dangerous thing about driving in Dublin.

Absolutely, a massive +1 on both of these. Definitely more reckless or situationally unaware then many motorists, apparently answerable to no one, and unpursued by the Gardai for the age old 'your word against blah blah..' argument. We'll have to start cycling around with helmet cams like TA...

L'Enfer du Nord

p15574 wrote: »

"Teaching a lesson" could well have fatal consequences for any of us, whatever about the rights or wrongs of where or how you're cycling. Judging from the above posts, there seems to be a lot of similar incidents. Perhaps we should all make a point of reporting each and every one from now on, with the reg no.? Surely if one or two drivers start getting a lot of complaints then the management will have to come down on them? We would be doing it to save lives, they'd probably do it to avoid a possible compo claim - either way, works.

To finish cheesily: "if it helps save even one life..."

Agree, I've never been cut-off or anything, but on a number of occassions I've got abuse from Bus drivers on the Stillorgan Dualer for not using the so-called cycle lane. Problem is they're right by law I should be using it AFAIK. In this case the law is an ass. If only the Green Party were in power I'm sure they'd do some thing about this nonsense:rolleyes:.

I fear there's a few Bus drivers whose blood boils every time they see a cyclist in the Bus lane when there's a cycle lane available.

The joke of it is when you think of the width of the Stillorgan road, including footpath etc. There's absolutly no reason why there can't be a wide well surfaced, well integrated cycle lane off the road on both sides the whole length of the road. preferably one that is dug up by cable companies every 2 months.

Reesy

Nowadays I carry my mobile to hand unless it's raining, so I can take pictures of the people who try to kill me. Maybe a picture would scare the driver into manners?

I'm lucky, my cycle commute is mostly on back roads & I've had no trouble on them yet, touch wood.

tomasrojo

One thing you can do if you're using the bus lane in one of this situations is to pull over when you hear a bus approaching. It's very hard for them to do the intimidating close pass when you're over at the side of the road. Obviously not ideal if there are buses passing you all the time, but sometimes I do that.

tomasrojo

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

Agree, I've never been cut-off or anything, but on a number of occassions I've got abuse from Bus drivers on the Stillorgan Dualer for not using the so-called cycle lane. Problem is they're right by law I should be using it AFAIK. In this case the law is an ass. If only the Green Party were in power I'm sure they'd do some thing about this nonsense:rolleyes:.

I fear there's a few Bus drivers whose blood boils every time they see a cyclist in the Bus lane when there's a cycle lane available.

The joke of it is when you think of the width of the Stillorgan road, including footpath etc. There's absolutly no reason why there can't be a wide well surfaced, well integrated cycle lane off the road on both sides the whole length of the road. preferably one that is dug up by cable companies every 2 months.

Better still would be no cycle facilities on that road, but an extra wide bus lane so that cyclists can ovetake the bus without chaning lane, and vice versa.

I stopped using the Stillorgan Dual Carriageway when they put in the lanes. It was fine until then, but it became non-stop intimidation after that -- and that was before the 1998 Statutory Instrument that made farce-ilities mandatory.

Doctor Bob

The_Claw wrote: »

Dublin Bus are a law unto themselves and the fact that there appear to be several drivers who are willing to risk actually killing someone speaks volumes about the culture of impunity and incompetence that permeates the company.

If you think it's bad now, wait for deregulation.

***

I thought this might add something to the debate. It's from the Roads Act (1993), Part VI (Miscellaneous), S.67 (Road users' duty of care):

67.—(1) It shall be the duty of a person using a public road to take reasonable care for his own safety and for that of any other person using the public road.

(2) It shall be the duty of a person using a public road to take all reasonable measures to avoid—

( a ) injury to himself or to any other person using the public road,

( b ) damage to property owned or used by him or by any other person using the public road.

This whole matter under discussion is, in effect, identical to a pedestrian walking out in front of a bus (car, bike, etc.) when they don't have a green man or they're not at a dedicated crossing point. Just because they're in the wrong does not give the driver a right to mow them down.

Not to mention the fact that a cyclist's duty to avoid injury or damage to his property could entail avoiding sub-standard cycle lanes...

Doctor Bob

For balance, I should mention that I've had many positive encounters with bus drivers, and I find that a bit of courtesy and patience goes a long way (this isn't a criticism of anyone in this thread, btw, but I do see some terrible cycling near buses).

But I've had plenty of near misses too, especially on the 4 lane bus circus that is Westmoreland Street (both before and since the opening of the bus gate).

Borneo Fnctn

I think it's your duty to report him and make every attempt to get him in trouble. I mean, the roads would be safer if people took the time to report dickheads like him. If you manage to get him pulled up on this, there's a good chance he won't do it again to the rest of us. What an absolute cunt. You played it well so far by the way. Sorry to hear that this happened on your 2nd day back in the saddle.

Edit: For the record, the cycle track there is an absolute thundering disgrace.

paranoid

As a daily N11 commuter, I think most DB drivers are sound enough, altough I don't doubt that some can do stupid and dangerous things.
Most of them are just trying to do their job and I am OK with causing them minimum hassle, although parts of the cycle lanes are actively dangerous and therefore to be avoided.

Eggball

I'm not entirely clear here, but you seem to be saying that there was a cycle lane but you didn't use it? If that's the case, you're on shaky ground - the Garda carriage office has been asked to rule on this in the past and have stated that it is illegal for a cyclist NOT to use a cycle lane where one is provided. Like most rules, cyclists generally ignore this, since they don't carry licence plates and can get away with most things. However, if you identify yourself to the cops, they might get funny about it. They're pretty sanctimonious and have the weird idea that he who comes to equity must do so with clean hands.

Eggball

Eggball wrote: »

I'm not entirely clear here, but you seem to be saying that there was a cycle lane but you didn't use it? If that's the case, you're on shaky ground - the Garda carriage office has been asked to rule on this in the past and have stated that it is illegal for a cyclist NOT to use a cycle lane where one is provided. Like most rules, cyclists generally ignore this, since they don't carry licence plates and can get away with most things. However, if you identify yourself to the cops, they might get funny about it. They're pretty sanctimonious and have the weird idea that he who comes to equity must do so with clean hands.

Just because he was in a bus lane - and ignoring how the Minister for Transport is planning on doing away with the compulsary use of cycle lane laws - doesn't give the bus driver (or anyone) the right to drive dangerously.

DirkVoodoo

Eggball wrote: »

I'm not entirely clear here, but you seem to be saying that there was a cycle lane but you didn't use it? If that's the case, you're on shaky ground - the Garda carriage office has been asked to rule on this in the past and have stated that it is illegal for a cyclist NOT to use a cycle lane where one is provided. Like most rules, cyclists generally ignore this, since they don't carry licence plates and can get away with most things. However, if you identify yourself to the cops, they might get funny about it. They're pretty sanctimonious and have the weird idea that he who comes to equity must do so with clean hands.

Eh, if you knew the cycle lane in question you would know that:

(a) it passes along some heavily shaded paths due to poor planning. The street lights can't get through the densely populated trees, so riding on it with standard "commuter" lights is useless. Obviously this only matters at night

(b) the cycle lane moves back onto the path after that girl's school on the left. There are two dangerous entrances to estates or apartments that are effectively blind. I'm not joking, even slowing down you cannot see until you are crossing at 90 degrees and relying on motorists being considerate and realising they must stop before crossing the cycle path to check all is clear.

(c) The bus lane is one of the widest I know of, A bus can overtake a cyclist safely without even having to cross the white line.

I always use the bus lane there and have yet to have a problem, the cycle facilities along this stretch are a joke and I'm sorry that the OP was the victim of a nasty driver, so far I have found taxis and buses quite ok with me cycling in it.

Bunnyhopper

Eggball wrote: »

Like most rules, cyclists generally ignore this, since they don't carry licence plates and can get away with most things.

I think that's a facile, insulting generalization about cyclists.

Doctor Bob

Eggball wrote: »

I'm not entirely clear here, but you seem to be saying that there was a cycle lane but you didn't use it? If that's the case, you're on shaky ground - the Garda carriage office has been asked to rule on this in the past and have stated that it is illegal for a cyclist NOT to use a cycle lane where one is provided. Like most rules, cyclists generally ignore this, since they don't carry licence plates and can get away with most things. However, if you identify yourself to the cops, they might get funny about it. They're pretty sanctimonious and have the weird idea that he who comes to equity must do so with clean hands.

To be clear, the legality or otherwise of the OP's actions is irrelevant in this case. As I mentioned above, as Dónal reiterated, and as borne out by examination of the legislation, there are never grounds for any road user to intimidate or terrorise any other road user. Anyone who thinks that such behaviour is justifiable should not be on the road. The End.

Regarding the legality of non-compliance with the 'mandatory use' provision (a separate matter from the OP's initial grievance), I would argue that the excerpt of the Roads Act posted above provides legitimate grounds for not using sub-standard facilities. And when I say 'sub-standard', I don't mean just that they're not A1, I mean they're positively dangerous in places.

As for your point about the Guards, I have been pulled over by them on the N11 (heading towards town, just beside Blake's) for not using the lane, and I stated my case as any citizen is entitled to do- which was that the lane was dangerous to use and it was safer for me to be in the bus lane. (I stopped short of accusing them of speeding in the bus lane, which they were, and which is why, I suspect, my behaviour bothered them.) They then informed me that the lane was 'obligatory', to which I responded "Actually, no, it's mandatory." (Yes, I was being deliberately provocative.) At that point, one Guard lost it and demanded ID, which I willingly gave, and he told me I'd be hearing from them shortly. That was over two years ago...

Again, for balance, I should mention that I have had positive experiences with other Guards too, and I would never tar them all with the same brush. Tarring with the same brush- that's what car drivers do to cyclists.

Diarmuid

Eggball wrote: »

the Garda carriage office has been asked to rule on this in the past and have stated that it is illegal for a cyclist NOT to use a cycle lane where one is provided. .

um? I though the Gardas enforced the law not create the law?

Borneo Fnctn

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Tarring with the same brush- that's what car drivers do to cyclists.

Yeah, every one of them.

blorg

tomasrojo wrote: »

I have to say that bar one or two incidents, I find Dublin Bus drivers are at least ok, and sometimes very courteous. I often get an appreciative wave when I've obviously stopped to let them through a junction or narrow road. The intimidation I saw in Drumcondra that I mention above was by private coaches.

99.9%+ of them are perfectly courteous considerate road users. Unfortunately there is a small minority who are literally homicidal maniacs. I have been cycling for well over a decade now and generally have no trouble with any Dublin Bus driver... as others have suggested private coaches are more likely to cut you up, perform dangerous manoeuvres etc.

However the two incidences where a bus driver DELIBERATELY pulled into me to "teach me a lesson" for not using the unusable cycle track it was a Dublin Bus driver on the N11. When private coaches do something dangerous, you get the sense they are just not paying attention or just don't care, by contrast these two DB incidents (years ago now) were very deliberate.

That is two incidents in over 10 years in which I have had thousands upon thousands of courteous interactions with DB drivers, every day for over 10 years.

One of them, the more egregious one, he was out of service which probably emboldened him- technically I believe he is not meant to be in the bus lane himself in this situation, they are only for buses IN service. Overtakes very close and then edges into me before the bus is past- had to jam on the brakes to get behind him or I would have been knocked off.

The second one I was livid and boarded the bus with my bike at the next stop which I felt weakened my position on it somewhat, he threatened to call the gardai himself. I had him stopped for 5 minutes arguing with him. Obviously the commuters on the bus were none too happy with this.

To be honest though it was enough to stop me using the N11 entirely and I now go through Goatstown-Clonskeagh instead. So the intimidation worked on me at least. The drivers that do this should be in prison, never mind losing their jobs.

happy_acid_face

I have been getting the bus up that road for last 6 months in and out of work. I don't know what it is but from Donnybrook up as far as Stillorgan some bus drivers seem to become ridiculously reckless. My heart has been in my throat at some of the close shaves I have seen.

Most recently, I was travelling into work going south down the Stillorgan Road, just past the Raddison. We passed the turn where Mount Merrion Ave meets the Stillorgan Road stopping at the bus stop which is just after the turn. As a woman was about to get on, another bus rear ended us. The bang was so hard that it nearly threw me out of my seat. Both the front of the other bus and the back of our bus were totalled. There was broken glass everywhere and a lot of people rubbing their necks and backs. I don't know if the driver behind just zoned out or if he had sped up to try and catch the lights. He did look like it had given him some shock though.

The thing that stressed me the most though was that every day I stare out the window at the various people on their bikes trying to catch the makes, gear, etc. I must pass about 15 or so along that stretch alone. Half the time there would be a cyclist right behind the bus as it pulls off from the lights. Luckily enough, that was a day with no one behind us. If there had of been, the cyclist wouldn't have had a chance.

Blowfish

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

Agree, I've never been cut-off or anything, but on a number of occassions I've got abuse from Bus drivers on the Stillorgan Dualer for not using the so-called cycle lane. Problem is they're right by law I should be using it AFAIK. In this case the law is an ass. If only the Green Party were in power I'm sure they'd do some thing about this nonsense:rolleyes:.

I've had exactly the same only about 2 weeks ago. I was heading south on the N11, avoiding the crap surface on one part of the cycle lane, when I had a bus driver drive up behind me and lean on his horn for a while. As I completely ignored this, he then drove up beside me, slowed down and opened the door, then starting yelling and cursing at me to 'use the f*ing cycle lane'.

The drivers that are like that are very much in the minority, most are fine and are courteous (e.g.will quite happily wait for you if you start to overtake them when they want to move out), but encountering the few aggresive idiots there are definitely leaves a sour taste.

Doctor Bob

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Tarring with the same brush- that's what car drivers do to cyclists.

jackpalance wrote: »

Yeah, every one of them.

Tongue firmly in cheek, old chap! (Perhaps it could have used a smiley.;))

(And maybe a bit of a dig at Eggball's generalisation about cyclists.)

Jumpy

Does anyone notice the N11 pattern here?

It could simply be the same driver. Get him fired and it should settle a bit.