Should I tell the Gardai?

Convict

Last Friday, at lunchtime, I was cycling up the Stillorgan Dual Carrigeway, past RTE, towards Donnybrook. I wasn't in the cycling lane - I use it going the opposite direction but on that side of the road it is very dangerous. Besides, the road is wide and there is a good bus lane. I know that I'm breaking the law but had used it in the past and was almost mown down.
Anyway, I heard beeping behind me and a 46A passed me, extremely close and at an angle, cutting into the kerb. He braked hard in front of me and I had to pull up sharp to avoid running into the back of him. I was astonished. There was another cyclist in the cycling lane. He pulled up. I said, did you see that? He said the bus driver had done exactly the same to him.
I cycled hard after him. I was shaking. As far as I was concerned I was cycling close to the kerb and was not in anyway in his path. I caught up with him. I passed him and got a look at him. I tried to remember his numberplate. He accelerated past me and disappeared through the next light which was on red. I know I should have got the other cyclist's details but I was trying to work out why anyone driving a vehicle with passengers on board would use that vehicle in the manner in which he did. There was dangerous driving certainly and road rage - but why?
Anyway I cycled into town. I reported the incident to an inspector on O'Connell Street - the taxi protest was on, there was a fair bit of chaos. He rang Donnybrook Garage and gave me the name of someone there and told me they would be in contact soon. I was able to give him a good part of the registration of the bus. He told me the bus would have cctv on board and the incident would be recorded. I then cycled up to Mountjoy Square to see if my man was about. He wasn't. I spoke to some two bus drivers up there. One of them told me that the driver's attitude wasn't that unusual. He'd just acted on it. He told me I would almost certainly have to pursue the issue.
I heard nothing more on Friday and got a call from Donnnybrook this morning. They told me what had happened with me didn't look that serious on cctv. It appears the incident with the other cyclist - which I'd mentioned to them - was mnore graphic. They told me I would have to put my complaint in writing - which I will. They said that there internal procedures would take place. I asked what would happen then and I was told that 'whether the man got a two week holiday in the Canaries or a suspension was an internal matter'. To be fair to the man I spoke to this did not sound as bad as it looks in print. He was just stating that their disciplinary procedure would take over and I wasn't entitled to know any more.
I pointed out the obvious issues to him - about the relative size of a bus, the fact that the incident wasn't isolated, that there were other people - passenger involved, that I had in no provoked it either. I said that maybe I should go to the Guards. That's my question.
I should also say that I was cut across by a driver last May. Full liability has been admitted. I got my collarbone broken and had to have a metal plate inserted as it was near the edge of the bone. Consequently I had my arm strapped to my side for seven week. I'm still doing physio and had only started cycling again last week. Friday was my second day on a bike.

flickerx

Yep, go to the cops, see it all the way through.
You could have been killed on a simple whim of a driver in a bad mood. I wouldnt put much faith in Dublin Bus internal procedures to find the driver did anything wrong.

ROK ON

I would go to the Gardai, but only to bolster your complaint with Dublin Bus.
The Gardai will not take this seriously IMHO, as (1) you have not been injured, (2) you have a partial reg. (3) you have no witness details.

However they maybe able to help you with your issue with Dublin Bus.

pedro ferio-vti

Wow..... must have been a pretty frightening experience considering it was only your second day back on a bike and to have another incident similar to what had put you in hospital occur again all out of some Bus Drivers frustration? My sympathies at least are with you.

I think I would go back to the Gardai, given the protests that were on at the time you went in and the fact they would have been slightly busy or preoccupied with the protests that day that's certainly what I would do. I'm sure if there is any evidence you can provide, preferably from an independant witness or CCTV footage you could have him prosecuted for Dangerous Driving. I wouldn't trust Dublin Bus to sort anything out internally and even if they did, is a 2 week suspension really enough for some nutjob who is trying to ram cyclists off the road... lol?

blorg

Tell the Gardai. Exact same thing happened to me on the same road a few years back from a Dublin Bus driver. When I caught up with him the driver said he did it to "teach me a lesson" about cycling in the bus lane. I was cycling downhill between Mount Merrion Avenue and Fosters Avenue where the cycle track is even less usable. I know several other people who have had the same thing happen. I only wish I had taken it further at the time, someone is going to get killed one of these days.

Lumen

This makes me quite cross.

bbosco

I would definitely tell the cops. As has been said, it's unlikely to get very far, but at the very least Dublin Bus should receive a call from a Garda asking a few questions. The more such phone calls they receive the more likely Dublin Bus are to put some pressure on their drivers to cut this out - it's all too common; I've been on the receiving end as well as seen it happen to others.

I meant to add that I hope you've recovered from the ordeal. I'm sure that's the last thing you needed after your injury. Good luck.

Gavin

Well done on following up on it, scary stuff. There's no harm in going into the Garda station and making a report of at least dangerous driving. You could also phone it in through Trafficwatch perhaps ?

tomasrojo

There is a minority of Dublin Bus drivers who take it upon themselves to "teach you a lesson". You've done well to follow up. I had a bus do a deliberate close pass and swerve on me in Fairview for the same reason: not using a substandard cycle facility. I didn't follow it up. I probably should have.

Jawgap

I'd take it further. Either go to Donnybrook (Garda Station) and offer to make a statement or get on to the Traffic Corps with the same offer.

There will be some arguing you're jeopardising the guy's job or even his licence, but as you point out the relative sizes involved means it's incredibly dangerous. Also, if the guy valued his job and licence he shouldn't be such an idiot.

As a sweeping generalisation, I generally find Dublin Bus drivers to be pretty sound - the coach driving companies are totally the opposite.

Good luck

Danbo!

I didnt think much of it, but something similar, maybe not as serious, happened to me this morning on the Rathgar-Rathmines road.

There was a bus stopped at a bus stop, and I signaled to overtake. When I moved out I saw it was actually 2 buses, both stationary. As I just passed the back of the second bus (the one in front I mean) The driver indicated and drove on, I noticed in his wing mirror he didn't check it, because he looked to be still sorting out a fare with a passenger.. I picked up the pace to get passed as I couldn't slow down, there was a car behind to my right and a motorcyclist directly behind me, I was almost at the front of the bus at this stage anyway. I got in front and clear about 10 feet, signaled and moved in. Driver sat on the horn for about 5-7 seconds, obviously I had interrupted his acceleration.

When he passed me again there must have only been inches between the wing-mirror and my helmet, he really went for the close pass. In Rathmines village I passed him once more, and he had a big grin on his face.

I regret not getting the reg alright. This is bugging me now as it seems to be happening more frequently. I understand my idea of trying to get past him may not have been the best choice, but theres no need for him to pass so close to 'teach me a lesson'.

ronaneire

Take it further and go to the Guards, it just that a bus driver is having an off day that he/she take it out on someone else.
Also I believe that Dublin Bus needs to start doing a lot more with their drivers, as you take your life into your hands regardless if your walking, cycling or driving. They seem to think that putting on an indicator gives them a right to pull out and cut people up.

Convict

Thanks for the replies. I told them last Friday I would follow it all the way. It has happened to me before but to a much lesser extent. Perhaps some of this is a result of what happened last May. I love cycling and not to get too messianic about it, I see it as a bit of a metaphor: always moving forward, getting back on your bike, all those cliches. Usually I just roll with stuff because it's so frequent here. I think we put up with a lot. There are seven cyclists dead this year, if I remember right, there are nine in London with multiples of our population and look how militant they are...
Anyhow, to get back to my man.... I told Dublin Bus that I was as much interested in how their procedures worked. I will write to them up the line and complain that they are not transparent and that's not good enough. Their record is far from unblemished and I didn't like the attitude that what happened to me wasn't that bad. He cut me off and pulled up directly in front of me. The dual carrigeway was empty at the time. Incidentally, this is all on cctv which they have to make available to the Gardai - they've admitted that. So it may not be all that cut and dried.

RasTa

I spat on the last bus that did this to me. He pulled over and we had verbals for about 5 mins, I jumped on the bus but he didn't come out of his cage thing. I was tipsy at the same so not blameless myself. Wonder if it was the same dude.

Sniipe

+1 on reporting it to the guards.

kincsem

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=3430

Traffic Watch
Address:

Telephone:1890 205 805

Email:

Report incidents of aggressive driving or driving hazards.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Station: Donnybrook
Division: Dublin Metropolitan Region
Donnybrook is in the DMR South Central Division and in Donnybrook District.

Donnybrook Garda Station,
Donnybrook,
Dublin 4.

Tel: +353 1 666 9200
Fax: +353 1 666 9240 (Public Office)

District HQ: Donnybrook
District HQ Tel: +353 1 666 9280
District Officer: Superintendent Finbarr O'Brien

Divisional HQ:
Pearse Street
Divisional HQ Tel: +353 1 666 9090
Divisional Officer: Chief Superintendent John Twomey

tunney

+1 on guards. Bus drivers are utter utter cvnts

Danbo!

-1 on the spitting, doesn't do much for the image of redlight-breaking footpath terrorists that we cyclists are.

Jip

And another for the gardai. One thing I have noticed is that the quality of Dublin Bus drivers has really gone down hill in recent years, once they'd all be fairly polite on the road, now alot of them are just pricks.

I had a similar incident once, heading towards a set of lights in a dotted cycle lane, the traffic lights, only about 10 metres ahead, were red so there was no hurry for anyone. A bus came up my outside and when it got along side it pulled in towards the kerb. I was going to give the side of it a few bangs to waken the driver up but figured it wasn't worth it, the prick only had to wait 10 metres anyway. When I got along side I stared in the door but he never glanced towards me, out of sheer ignorance of what he done or the fact that he didn't realise I'd catch him.

p15574

"Teaching a lesson" could well have fatal consequences for any of us, whatever about the rights or wrongs of where or how you're cycling. Judging from the above posts, there seems to be a lot of similar incidents. Perhaps we should all make a point of reporting each and every one from now on, with the reg no.? Surely if one or two drivers start getting a lot of complaints then the management will have to come down on them? We would be doing it to save lives, they'd probably do it to avoid a possible compo claim - either way, works.

To finish cheesily: "if it helps save even one life..."

kona

Didnt the government say last year that, it wasnt a legal requirement for cyclists to use the cycle lanes?
Or am I just mixed up?

Either way, **** em, get infront of him and pedal real slow, ****ing arsehole, hed get more **** for being late than what he did there.

Who the **** is he to teach anybody a lesson? ****ing self important prick. I hope your complaint teaches Him the Lesson and he ends up cleaning up the sick off the nitelinks back seat for the rest of his life.

petethedrummer

kona wrote: »

Didnt the government say last year that, it wasnt a legal requirement for cyclists to use the cycle lanes?
Or am I just mixed up?

No they are planning to remove the law that requires you to use cycle lanes.

Anyways, OP you can go back and check the signs, there may be a cycle lane on the path but the bus lane may also be dual use, i.e. it has a bus and a bike symbol on it.

kincsem

I sent e-mails to info@dublinbus.ie and road_safety@garda.ie linked to this thread.

Some cyclists do not use cycle lanes - I admitted that. Some bus drivers are aggressive to cyclists in bus lanes - I said that. If we don't tell them they won't know there is a problem.

Sniipe

petethedrummer wrote: »

Anyways, OP you can go back and check the signs, there may be a cycle lane on the path but the bus lane may also be dual use, i.e. it has a bus and a bike symbol on it.

Even if its not allowed to be used it doesn't mean that a bus driver can take the law into his own hands.

seamus

That's pretty bad Stee, I take that route most days and while I've found that I often overtake a bus only to find a second in front of it ready to go, the bus in front is usually good enough to wait for me (provided that I get my ass in gear). It usually happens that you begin overtaking and a car follows you, so you're somewhat committed to overtaking both busses, even if the front one starts moving off.

Aside from the odd driver passing a little too close and some drivers' insistence on repeatedly overtaking you, even when the stop is 100m down the road, I can't recall ever having an "incident" with any driver.

There are plenty of places where roads are too narrow for bike + bus, e.g. the templeogue road between the bridge and the village, but I've only been beeped at once for taking the primary riding position to prevent a bus overtaking me.

Jip

Forgot to mention, nothing will probably come of the internal DB investigation. If there is one the driver will have his union rep in with him to insure he gets off scott free. DB is another one of these places were no matter how incompetent you are you still cannot get fired.

hivemindx

Registered to post this...

6 or 7 years ago I was cycling south on the N11 (Stillorgan Road) on the off road cycle path. I wanted to turn right on to Brewery Road so I dismount from the cycle path in to the bus land about 200m from the lights. There is a Dublin Bus approaching so I maintain my position at the kerb side so it can pass me before I move out to cross the three lanes of traffic. By my understanding of the law this is perfectly legal.

This bus pulls alongside me, slows to the same speed as me and pulls in to the kerb squeezing me between the bus and the kerb until there is practically no space. This goes on for a few seconds during which I think about whether I should bang on the side of the bus or jump off to the left so I don't get killed. He then pulls out and accelerates again.

He has to stop at the next junction since the light is red so I pull up at the drivers window and bang on it. He opens it and I ask him what he was doing. He say "You shouldn't have been on the road". This makes it certain that he did this deliberately to threaten me.

I call 999 (I don't know if Traffic Watch was around then but in my opinion phoning them is a waste of time) and report this as dangerous driving to the operator.

When I get to work I phone Dublin Bus and complain to them. The Dublin Bus guy is very uninterested and has the attitude that they can't listen to every tom dick and harry that makes a complaint. I tell him I'll have to wait and see what the guards say in that case and he perks up. Apparently since I've already informed the guards he has to actually take note of my complaint, he sounds annoyed and gets me to repeat a number of things (indicating that he didn't make any note of the details the first time I gave them, implying he was just going to ignore my complaint).

I phone the relevant garda station to give them more information and ask what happened. They asked me if I had light on my bike at the time. Since it was broad daylight I thought this was a pretty stupid question but I said no and explained how the broad daylight thing probably made that unneccessary.

I get the run around from both Dublin Bus and the guards for a couple of weeks. Eventually I get told that the guards interviewed the driver and he said he remembers some incident with a cyclist banging on his window but he didn't do anything wrong. My word against his, no action taken. To add insult to injury the Dublin Bus complaints guy says "even if he had done it, you wouldn't want him to lose his job would you?".

Yes. Yes I would. I could have been killed because this person decided to use his Bus as a weapon. Lots of people have been killed by buses. How many of these 'tragic accidents' might have been the result of 'teaching them a lesson' gone wrong? Losing his job is the _minimum_ penalty I would want for what was done to me.

So I advise you to call the guards and report it. It's a shame that you didn't get contact details from your witness since this means that you won't get any satisfaction but at least your complaint will go on record, something that I doubt will happen if you just complain to Dublin Bus.

If a cyclist is killed on the N11 by a driver from Donnybrook Garage I'd bet there will be questions asked about their driving practices in that garage and Dublin Bus will claim they have never had any complaints.

I've told this story to a number of people and telling it now has made me angry all over again. I've been told that the buses on the N11, which means Donnybrook Garage, are notorious for this sort of behaviour.

All you can do when this sort of thing happens is complain to the full extent you can. If it does nothing else it helps ensure that someones head rolls if a serious incident ever takes place as a result of these cowboy drivers.

mmclo

Dublin Bus is subject to FOI so it's proceedures should certainly be available. They would probablyu claim privacy on actual disciplinary records but you could argue that the one relating to you should be available

CheGuedara

mmclo wrote: »

Dublin Bus is subject to FOI so it's proceedures should certainly be available. They would probablyu claim privacy on actual disciplinary records but you could argue that the one relating to you should be available

That might be true - but as much as any documentation regarding you should be available through FOI as a subsidiary of CIE they have the same lack of ethics policy

CIE/Dublin Bus wrote:

The Group is not yet obliged to disclose information under the Freedom of Information Act, 1997. Any requests for information pursuant to this Act from third parties, (including the Department of Transport) must be referred to the Group Secretary or the company secretary of any of the subsidiaries who will, in turn, pass the request to the Group Secretary. Employees should also be mindful of the Group's obligations under the Data Protection Act, 1988 and any requests for or regarding information held by the Group which is subject to the provisions of that Act should also be referred, in the first instance, to the Group Secretary.

I did notice that in the legalities to which CIE employees are expected to adhere does not extend itself to to the execution of their duties with the utmost level of safety but that

CIE/Dublin Bus wrote:

Employees must:

• place highest priority on promoting and preserving their own health and safety as well as that of fellow employees, customers and other third parties with whom they come in contact in the course of their Board membership/directorship/employment,
• ensure that community concerns are fully considered and
• minimise any detrimental impact of CIE Group operations on the environment.

So if you're a tree, or on the bus you're grand by their guidelines, but as a (third party) cyclist all they'll do is try to educate you (not in their operating remit from what I've found). As for community concerns, from what this thread shows they're clearly not that concerned.

petethedrummer

Sniipe wrote: »

Even if its not allowed to be used it doesn't mean that a bus driver can take the law into his own hands.

Of course, I wasn't excusing the driver's behaviour. You can just be more righteous if you discover you were not breaking any (stupid) law.

aphex™

Weird, exact same thing happened to a fella in my office. Same area too. But it was a good while ago like over a year at this stage.