Tim Tebow

eagle eye

Well they all said 'look at Vince Young'. Well he did appear to be a bust but his performances this year has shown that he is anything but a bust. His stock rising helps Tebow's draft stock imo.

I think a guy who can be a leader, and is a born winner will make it in the NFL. Tebow has all the intangibles, he will have to work hard on the throw to be fair but he will make it, I'm certain of that.

_Buck Rogers

eagle eye wrote: »

Well they all said 'look at Vince Young'. Well he did appear to be a bust but his performances this year has shown that he is anything but a bust. His stock rising helps Tebow's draft stock imo.

I think a guy who can be a leader, and is a born winner will make it in the NFL. Tebow has all the intangibles, he will have to work hard on the throw to be fair but he will make it, I'm certain of that.

to be fair to young he got 2006 rookie of the year and lost his place after he was injured. So this season isnt the first showing of what he's made of.

Chucky the tree

Not only that but VY was a nailed on top 10 pick, even top 5 and was the 1st QB taken. Tebow could easily fall as low as the 3rd round and most definitely won't be the first QB taken.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

Well they all said 'look at Vince Young'. Well he did appear to be a bust but his performances this year has shown that he is anything but a bust. His stock rising helps Tebow's draft stock imo.

I think a guy who can be a leader, and is a born winner will make it in the NFL. Tebow has all the intangibles, he will have to work hard on the throw to be fair but he will make it, I'm certain of that.

Vince Young has had a few years to mature as an NFL player. And to be honest Vince Young has a better arm than Tebow much better in fact.

Tebow has a long hard route in my opinion and it is this that will see him drop in the draft. There are maybe 1 or 2 teams that may take a chance on him in the Draft in the 1st or 2nd rounds because of the commercial aspect of it. Jags being one.

No team will want to give him big money if a lot of hard work and practice is required to get him ready for the NFL especially when it is his throwing ability is in question.

Look don't get me wrong Tebow will make the NFL. But the superstar elite aspect that people keep harping on about I just don't see it especially not straight away.

davyjose

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Vince Young has had a few years to mature as an NFL player. And to be honest Vince Young has a better arm than Tebow much better in fact.

So in your opinion is Young a better Player than Tebow? I just want to straighten this out, because from what I can make out, Young was excellent in college, but Tebow was better. So Tebow has every bit the chance of making it that young has. You say young has a better arm, but he wasn't drafted ahead of Leinart or Cutler because of his arm.

Also, if it's predominantly about having a good arm, but Cutler has an arm, Russell has an arm. What are they lacking*?

(I'm not even sure i agree tebow's arm is as bad as you say. The guy has pretty good numbers.)

















*Because whatever it is, I bet Tebow has it in spades.

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

So in your opinion is Young a better Player than Tebow? I just want to straighten this out, because from what I can make out, Young was excellent in college, but Tebow was better. So Tebow has every bit the chance of making it that young has. You say young has a better arm, but he wasn't drafted ahead of Leinart or Cutler because of his arm.

Also, if it's predominantly about having a good arm, but Cutler has an arm, Russell has an arm. What are they lacking*?

(I'm not even sure i agree tebow's arm is as bad as you say. The guy has pretty good numbers.)



*Because whatever it is, I bet Tebow has it in spades.

Where did I say Young was better than Tebow? I said he has a better arm and has matured in the NFL over a couple of season hence why he is doing so well right now.

Seriously this is the second time you have taken me out of context and not clearly read the rest of the post properly.

No one knows how Tebow will get on in the NFL including me. Your college career does not define that. Some of the best college football players have failed in the NFL. As for comparing them as individuals in college iagain it means nothing as they have to prove themselves either way in the NFL.

I didn't bring up Young lets get that clear. But again I did say coincidentally he has a better arm than Tebow and has matured in the NFL hence why he seems to be doing so well now. Coaching him clearly has worked in many aspects of his game.

Im not saying it anymore. If Tebow succeeds he succeeds. It means he has gotten the right coaching and given the right direction by whoever takes him in the Draft.

The problem here is those who are convinced he will be one of the best QBs in the NFL have yet to give a proper argument to the cause.

To sum up its down to who is willing to try fit him and coach him correctly into their system or down to those who are willing to adjust their system to him. Simple as. Do I personally see him being anymore than an average NFL QB no I don't. Average as in not being Manning Brady Brees type QBs.

I dont know why people keep comparing him in their arguments to other QBs I said nothing about.

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

Also, if it's predominantly about having a good arm, but Cutler has an arm, Russell has an arm. What are they lacking*?

(I'm not even sure i agree tebow's arm is as bad as you say. The guy has pretty good numbers.)


*Because whatever it is, I bet Tebow has it in spades.

Firstly I never said his arm was bad. And what has Cutler and Young got to do with this? They are on Pro teams and have their problems. They are another threads argument really and in fact they were done already on here I suggest you find those thread because Im not going to compare them myself to a guy who has yet to take a snap in the NFL.

Throwing the Ball in college and numbers dont carry across to the NFL. Look Graham Herrell and his numbers at Texas Tech.

In college you don't play against Pro Secondaries week in week out. The arguments to his arm is that his high long balls float too much and if you throw them type of balls at a Pro secondary it will be picked off.

This is not just my opinion many coaches and scouts and pundits have said it.

davyjose

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Where did I say Young was better than Tebow? I said he has a better arm and has matured in the NFL over a couple of season hence why he is doing so well right now.

Seriously this is the second time you have taken me out of context and not clearly read the rest of the post properly. No one knows how Tebow will get on in the NFL including me. Your college career does not define that. Some of the best college football players have failed in the NFL. As for comparing them as individuals in college iagain it means nothing as they have to prove themselves either way in the NFL.

I didn't bring up Young lets get that clear. But again I did say coincidentally he has a better arm than Tebow and has matured in the NFL hence why he seems to be doing so well now. Coaching him clearly has worked in many aspects of his game.

Im not saying it anymore. If Tebow succeeds he succeeds. It means he has gotten the right coaching and given the right direction by whoever takes him in the Draft.

The problem here is those who are convinced he will be one of the best QBs in the NFL have yet to give a proper argument to the cause.

To sum up its down to who is willing to try fit him and coach him correctly into their system or down to those who are willing to adjust their system to him. Simple as. Do I personally see him being anymore than an average NFL QB no I don't. Average as in not being Manning Brady Brees type QBs.

I dont know why people keep comparing him in their arguments to other QBs I said nothing about.

Fair enough, but the issue of Young was raised. Young is doing VERY well as a QB lately, and so my point is: unless they see Tebow as inferior to Young, they can't make that call.

I never said Tebow would be elite, but I think he will bring a lot to whoever does draft him. There is no way of knowing it's true. But where you have a problem with people saying "tebow will be awesome in the NFL", i have a problem with people saying he'll be rubbish.

I haven't really misquoted you either Tallaght, in your initial post, you mentioned that you hate how people say "he was awesome in college so he will be awesome in NFL"(or something like that), but my point is, unless his college abilities mean nothing, then he does stand a good chance of succeeding in NFL, by virtue of the fact that he is an awesome footballer - and has proven it.

It's weird that we're the ones who (and I'll quote) "don't back up [our] opinions", and yet all I'm hearing is he doesn't have a strong arm. That's not a sound argument to me about a guy who has gotten 42 TD's in a 13/14 game season. You're telling me it's "ridiculous" to mention the Sugar bowl, because the team ranked 4th in the BCS weren't a decent challenge??? C'mon man? That's a flimsier argument than any I've seen against.

davyjose

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Firstly I never said his arm was bad.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

HE is a QB of course his arm is important. He floats the football far too much. Unfortunately he doesn't have the strongest arm around and unfortunately for him coaches notice this. If he throws that many passes anywhere near Pro secondaries he will be picked off a lot.

Eh..... you've clearly criticised his arm above

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

And what has Cutler and Young got to do with this? They are on Pro teams and have their problems. They are another threads argument really and in fact they were done already on here I suggest you find those thread because Im not going to compare them myself to a guy who has yet to take a snap in the NFL.

Cutler and Young are relevant because they are living proof that much, much more than a good strong arm are needed to succeed in the NFL.

Dodge

davyjose wrote: »

I don't get why some people are so adamant that ability won't translate to the NFL - it's the same bloody sport.

Its wildly different. There are about 3/4 college offenses that play "pro style" offense. The option pass is a huge, huge part of all college offense and its seen as a trick play in the NFL

As for the level of play; the NFL has 32 squads, and they have 53 man rosters. There are 120 top tier (BCS) college teams and more below that (from where QBs like Warner, Romo and Flacco came).

Its highly probable that Tebow has come up against no more than 10-15 NFL quality defenders in his 3 years as a starting QB.

I wish the lad well, as he seems genuine, but there's a reason why greater judges than us think Tebow won't make it

Dodge

davyjose wrote: »

Cutler and Young are relevant because they are living proof that much, much more than a good strong arm are needed to succeed in the NFL.

They're also proof that outstanding college careers do not autmatically make outstanding pro players

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

It's weird that we're the ones who (and I'll quote) "don't back up [our] opinions", and yet all I'm hearing is he doesn't have a strong arm. That's not a sound argument to me about a guy who has gotten 42 TD's in a 13/14 game season. You're telling me it's "ridiculous" to mention the Sugar bowl, because the team ranked 4th in the BCS weren't a decent challenge??? C'mon man? That's a flimsier argument than any I've seen against.

Are you for real? Strong arm doesnt mean you wont throw a lot of TDs in College or anywhere. Again read what I wrote in my posts. When he throws a high long ball he hangs it up there far too long. This is a problem with strength for him on long passes. The problem lies within that if he does that against Pro corners the chances of INT are very high.

And again on high numbers in College

My example with Graham Harrell to show stats dont count:

Harrell: 4 years 15,793yds 134 Tds,

Tebow: 4 years 9,286yds 88tds,

Now Graham Harrell was told his arm strength was in question and look at his numbers for College football.

Now this doesnt mean they wont score TDs I never said that. But throwing long deep balls into coverage will put them as questionable especially against Pro Secondaries. Now I have backed up my arm strength thing more than once.

Now no one was willing to take a shot on a guy like Harrell, BUT Tebow on the other yes of course someone will but the next question is who and at what capacity. His arm will need a lot of work and that is a fact. But again this doesn't mean he wont score TDs but any coach will want to make sure they fix this problem before putting him up against the best of the best.

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

I haven't really misquoted you either Tallaght, in your initial post, you mentioned that you hate how people say "he was awesome in college so he will be awesome in NFL"(or something like that), but my point is, unless his college abilities mean nothing, then he does stand a good chance of succeeding in NFL, by virtue of the fact that he is an awesome footballer - and has proven it.

As for this you have taken this out of context. There are so many people who feel just because he was awesome in college feel he will be an instant success in the NFL. And these people never back it up with anything more than Oh he was awesome in college. Now at least with you, you have opened up your discussion on the topic more but others refuse to.

I never said his arm was bad either to go back to that. Saying it isn't the strongest around doesn't mean bad. I clearly on many occasions said he will need a lot of work to fix it.

davyjose

Fair enough. I do think that Tebow is such an incredible athlete, and the fact he brings those intangibles (i can see how wishy-washy a term that is, but you can't deny the guy has something), that it will carry through.
Maybe it is largely based on a hunch, but there is a lot to be said for hard work and a will to win. Look at how hard Peyton Manning works at his craft. There are guys with stronger arms and guys with better accuracy. But he's the guy staying up watching every Bears game on Videotape the week before SuperBowl 41. I honestly believe that's Manning's biggest attribute.

Tebow is that guy too. And I'm sorry, but for all the natural ability, Cutler and russell aren't.

That's why I think Tebow will succeed. I can see why that looks like we're not coming up with facts. But there is a strong argument there.

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

You're telling me it's "ridiculous" to mention the Sugar bowl, because the team ranked 4th in the BCS weren't a decent challenge??? C'mon man? That's a flimsier argument than any I've seen against.

Are you trying to tell me we were watching the same Bearcats than we watched all season? Did you watch any of their games at all this season? With Kelly gone for the last couple of weeks you could see how different the Cinci boys were. That was obvious to everyone including the commentators and most likely Urban Meyer. The Gators played against a different team in the Sugar Bowl and that is fact. Had Kelly been there it would have been more of a contest. Coaches of his calibre make a huge difference to the confidence of a team.

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

Fair enough. I do think that Tebow is such an incredible athlete, and the fact he brings those intangibles (i can see how wishy-washy a term that is, but you can't deny the guy has something), that it will carry through.
Maybe it is largely based on a hunch, but there is a lot to be said for hard work and a will to win. Look at how hard Peyton Manning works at his craft. There are guys with stronger arms and guys with better accuracy. But he's the guy staying up watching every Bears game on Videotape the week before SuperBowl 41. I honestly believe that's Manning's biggest attribute.

Tebow is that guy too. And I'm sorry, but for all the natural ability, Cutler and russell aren't.

That's why I think Tebow will succeed. I can see why that looks like we're not coming up with facts. But there is a strong argument there.

I dont like Cutler or Russell to be honest. Cutler for me I liked him a lot when he came out of college even for the majority of this year but it seems he is forcing more and more of his passes this year and playing like sh1te. I can't put my finger on why he is self destructing tbh. As for Russell never liked the chap even in college.

I would like to see the Patriots take Tebow in maybe the 2nd or 3rd round if he drops considering we have loads of picks. I think BB and the Pats would get a lot out of Tebow and work with that arm of his especially under the tutelage of Brady.

eagle eye

There is nothing wrong with Tebow's arm, its just his style thats a problem. He drops his arm too low before he throws and that will lead to a lot of fumbles in the nfl with top class rushers getting close enough to knock it out.

I've seen Tebow throw bullets, I've seen him throw floaters too. He can do it all, its just mechanics. He will work hard to fix them, I guarantee you he blows everyone away at the combine next year.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with Tebow's arm, its just his style thats a problem. He drops his arm too low before he throws and that will lead to a lot of fumbles in the nfl with top class rushers getting close enough to knock it out.

I've seen Tebow throw bullets, I've seen him throw floaters too. He can do it all, its just mechanics. He will work hard to fix them, I guarantee you he blows everyone away at the combine next year.

So all those coaches and pundits who have noticed it are wrong then is what you are saying? I'm not the only one saying it. When he throws deep they hang up there. And after watching tape after hearing that I tend to agree with these experts. Sure they were even saying it the other night during the Sugar Bowl.

You know for your sake I hope he does blow everyone away as you suggest because at least with others they are not making stupid guarantees like you as to whether he will succeed or fail.

And Im done on this subject its now at a point to each their own when it comes to opinion but to be honest one thing I didnt do is say he will completely fail or completely be the best ever. A lot of hard work needed by him.

davyjose

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

A lot of hard work needed by him.

No better man

frostie500

I dont think that Tebow will come into the NFL and be amazing but I do think that he will come in and be a functional qb that can move the chains. I agree with Tallaght saying that he has mechanical issues with his throw he doesnt have a quick delivery and it floats on long balls. But if he gets picked up by a team that can implement a system for him he can be very successful.

Tebow reads the game well in college and doesnt make too many bad decisions this will translate to the pros, as will his work ethic and in all liklihood his leadership. Every year we see qbs in the NFL that perform well as a game manager. As an example would Raider fans rather have a qb with a great work ethic and leadership under centre or JaMarcus Russel there(and taking up all that cap room!). The Raiders only need a qb that wont turn the ball over(defence, rushing and special teams are more then good enough) and will hit quick outs and slants as well as screen plays to their running backs. Tebow can do that sort of job as a game manager in the NFL.

The draft is a lottery but if a team takes Tebow and realises that they need to develop him then he can be an effective player. Tallaght brought up the Pats taking him, I wouldnt be suprised at all if that occured if Tebow was available to them. Bellichek loves players with numerous skills like Tebow and would be able to engineer him to come in 5-6 plays a game, or whatever, and have an impact. Brady has shown time and again(eg his contract) that he is a team player and only winning matters so he wouldnt have an issue giving up a few snaps. If people are realistic of what to expect of Tebow he could be successful but the perception of his success or failure will be dependant on when he gets drafted

f1dan

I don't see much college football but can someone tell me how Tebow's passing compares to Pat White's cos watching him pass in the Dolphins - Steelers game was almost painful.

tallaghtoutlaws

f1dan wrote: »

I don't see much college football but can someone tell me how Tebow's passing compares to Pat White's cos watching him pass in the Dolphins - Steelers game was almost painful.

White wasn't taken for his passing abilities. He was taken as an option for the Wildcat formation because of his speed on the ground.

f1dan

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

White wasn't taken for his passing abilities. He was taken as an option for the Wildcat formation because of his speed on the ground.

Ok, but Tebow gives this option too because of his speed. From your reply I take it Tebow's passing is far superior to White's?

tallaghtoutlaws

f1dan wrote: »

Ok, but Tebow gives this option too because of his speed. From your reply I take it Tebow's passing is far superior to White's?

You missed my point. White was taken purely for the Wildcat. Tebow wont be btut why are comparing these two? Far superior to Whites? I wouldn't say far superior but yes his passing is much better than Whites.

Gisty

Tebow won't make a good nfl QB. Mechanics are all over the shop and he's not a proper passer.

He will probably end up in Jacksonville. Del Rio is out as of today, so it'll be a new coach ( maybe Mayer ) and a new regime. I see them trading up and grabbing Tebow no.1 and filling their stadium for the next 5 seasons at least.

Otherwise they draft a real player and move to LA

f1dan

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

You missed my point. White was taken purely for the Wildcat. Tebow wont be btut why are comparing these two? Far superior to Whites? I wouldn't say far superior but yes his passing is much better than Whites.

I get you now.

Hynzie

I think this whole Tebow debate is real interesting because its so difficult to look at him objectively. Hes such a likeable guy. A leader, a winner, and from all accounts a really good person. These are all qualities we love as sports fans and we want to believe they matter. Most people are just deisgned to root for a guy like that, me included. I want him to succeed. I don't want to believe that some guy who plays just for his check at the end of the week can succeed over Tim Tebow just because he has more god given talent. Its almost like we're all parents and we are watching our own kid out there!

But looking at it in the cold light of day I don't think he has it. That wind up is really elongated and his footwork is bad. Like many of you have said I think he can be a role player and a goal line weapon with his running and versatility. Maybe if he gets some good coaching and some time he could be a serviceable QB but i don't think he'l ever dominate like he did in college.

I hope I am wrong! I want Tim Tebow to succeed but my cynical side won't let me believe it.

jdivision

TBH I hate the preaching, selecting biblical quotes etc.

tallaghtoutlaws

jdivision wrote: »

TBH I hate the preaching, selecting biblical quotes etc.

This is one thing I don't like about him either.

Hynzie

jdivision wrote: »

TBH I hate the preaching, selecting biblical quotes etc.

Yeah that can get annoying but when you compare him to some a -hole like pacman Jones its not an issue, Il take it!:D