Point-to-Point Thread

convert

Now that the point-to-point season has started again, I thought it might be a nice idea to start a 'ptp thread' and give people a place to discuss the sport if so desired and plug local meetings, etc.

Here's a list of the upcoming point-to-points until Christmas:

POINT TO POINT FIXTURE LIST

SEPTEMBER

Sat 26th Route (H) Carrowmena, Carrowclard Rd., Limavady. L/H

Sun 27th Limerick (F) Bruff Rathcannon, Bruree, Co. Limerick. L/H

OCTOBER

Sat 3rd Co. Down (S) Derrydrummuck, Loughbrickland, Co. Down. L/H

Sun 4th Westmeath (F) Castletown-Geoghegan, Mullingar, Co Westmeath. L/H

Sat 10th Newry (H) Taylorstown, Co. Down. R/H

Sun 11th Shillelagh & District (F) Fairwood, Tinahely, Co. Wicklow. R/H

Sun 18th Galway Blazers (F) Dartfield, Kilreekill, Loughrea, Co. Galway. R/H

Sun 18th Kilmoganny (H) Gurteen Castle, Kilsheelan, Co. Tipperary. L/H

Sat 24th Mid Antrim (H) Moneyglass, Toomebridge, Co Antrim. L/H

Sat 24th North Galway (F) Ballinrobe Racecourse, Ballinrobe, Co. Mayo. R/H

Sun 25th Golden Vale (F) Glenbane, Holycross, Co. Tipperary. R/H

Sat 31st Iveagh (F) Bells' Hill, Maralin, Craigavon, Co. Armagh. L/H

NOVEMBER

Sun 1st Killinick (H) Lingstown, Tomhaggard, Co. Wexford. R/H

Sun 1st Suirvale (H) Fairyhill, Templemore, Co. Tipperary. R/H

Sun 8th Co. Roscommon (H) Rockfield, Roscommon. L/H

Sun 8th Kilkenny (F) Milltown, Kilmacow, Co. Kilkenny. R/H

Sun 8th South Union (F) Kinsale Farrangalway, Kinsale, Co. Cork. L/H

Sat 14th East Antrim (H) Loughanmore, Dunadry, Co. Antrim. L/H

Sun 15th Dungarvan (H) Affane, Cappoquin, Co. Waterford. L/H

Sun 15th Island Hunt (F) Ballydarragh, Gorey, Co. Wexford. L/H

Sat 21st Duhallow (F) Kanturk Dromore, Dromahane, Mallow, Co. Cork. L/H

Sat 21st North Down (F) Kirkistown, Portavogie, Co. Down. L/H

Sun 22nd Duhallow (F) Kanturk Dromore, Dromahane, Mallow, Co. Cork. L/H

Sun 22nd Tipperary (F) Lisronagh Lisronagh, Clonmel, Co. Tipperary. R/H

Sun 22nd Wexford (F) Lingstown, Tomhaggard, Co. Wexford. R/H

Sun 29th West Waterford (F) Boulta Boulta, Ballynoe, Co. Cork. L/H

Sun 29th Westmeath (H) & Longford (H) Killashee, Co. Longford. L/H

DECEMBER

Sun 6th United Hunt (F) Ballindenisk Watergrasshill, Ballindenisk, Co. Cork. R/H

Sun 13th United Hunt (F) Clonmult / Avaune, Dungourney, Co. Cork. R/H

Note: L/H = Left Hand Course R/H = Right Hand Course

convert

Point-to-Point website: http://www.p2p.ie/index.php

- contains lots of info about the point-to-points including upcoming fixtures, entries, results, riders, etc.


http://www.turfclub.ie/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11&Itemid=47

- regulatory body of racing

finbarrk

This would be better on the Racing forum. Half of whats on here hardly know what a point to point is.

convert

finbarrk wrote: »

This would be better on the Racing forum. Half of whats on here hardly know what a point to point is.

In fairness, most of the threads in the racing forum deal with gambling, with a few comments on specific horses/jockeys/races, etc. etc. I don't think I've ever seen a thread on a point-to-point (maybe apart from the one I brought up, and I think that only got one reply).

There have been a few threads in this forum about point-to-points, questions about schooling, etc. so I thought I'd introduce this one and see how it goes....


And please try to avoid insulting our members - just because not everyone is a ptp fan doesn't mean that their views are any less valuable or welcome!

convert

Point-to-point on Sunday 11 October at Fairwood, Tinahely, Co. Wicklow (where Tinahely Agricultural Show is held). First race is at 13.00

Entries for the races can be found here: http://www.p2p.ie/fixtures.php

There are also point-to-points in Loughrea and Kilsheelan on the same day and entries for those venues can be found here: http://www.p2p.ie/fixtures.php

Wicked

how did Tinahely go? was it very heavy? any horses stand out?

convert

The ground was actually quite good in Tinahely, though it did get a bit sticky towards the end of the day as the sods that had been upturned tended to dry out. Still, it was an enjoyable day and it was actually quite nice not to have so many divisions.... Meant I could stay for the last race

Winner of the first division of the 6yo+ geldings division stood out and won well.
Open and winners of one races were ok, too. Loggan Lass won her race in a very tight finish.

Wicked

i've heard of loggan lass alright. i had got a tip for one in 6 year olds actually - Lord Thai, heard he fell but the p2p website has him down as pulled up. don't suppose you seen him.

didn't get to go, its usually a good track, so what's the story with less divisions? is there just not as many running this year or is it because its the beginning of the season?

convert

Off the top of my head, I can't remember whether he fell or pulled up. However, it wouldn't be the first time that the p2p website has incorrect form up...

I think the fewer divisions are down to the time of year - it's very early for point-to-points and most horses would only be coming into training around now with a view to racing early in January/February. It's a bit of an awkward time of the year, really, as most NH horses will have been out for the summer.

Wicked

yeah its an awkward time of year alright. what do you think of point to points really?
i always thought the prize money could be better and the number of horses in a race. it seems like they just allow as many horses as they can in a race just to get money in, and the divisions are a bit of a joke, you can't really plan a race..

convert

How do the number of divisions stop you from planning a race? The fact that all horses which are declared on a given day are guaranteed a race means that you know that if you enter for a point-to-point in 10 days or two weeks time that you'll get to run, and it's much easier to plan a season, especially if you consider the problems that are on the racecourse.

I also think the problems with the balloting system are contributing to the huge entries in point-to-points for the reason outlined above. If you look at the form of the horses that are running, a huge number of horses, both maidens and open horses, have run on the racecourse.

Regarding the prizemoney, I don't think that is the main reason why people run their horses in point-to-points and prizemoney has never been huge. Don't forget, until relatively recently, point-to-pointing was an amateur sport and in the past horses from trainer's yards used to carry a penalty.

The entry fee is what the point-to-points rely on to run the day. It's what pays for the hiring/building of fences, the purchasing/making of warning flags and disks, officials' bibs, the valet, the commentator, hiring of a PA system, printing of race cards, the vet, the doctor, the ambulances, etc. etc. etc. The gate receipts wouldn't cover half that. You can't expect a hunt to run a point-to-point at a loss. The people who run the point-to-point, the officials, the fence stewards, the mounted stewards, etc. all give their time voluntarily, so you can't expect them to go to all the effort to run their point-to-point at a loss. While the point-to-points do provide a much needed facility for owners/trainers to run their horses, it's not just for the industry, it's also meant to be a source of income for the hunts. In this economic climate I don't think it's feasible for the entry fees to be increased, although with the new rules being implemented this season there has been a rule introduced regarding the prize money for an open race, which can now be worth no less than €1200 but no more than €1500.

Wicked

i think you took me up wrong there. what i meant by 'planning a race' was that you never know who your up against. so you can't really judge the form of the horses your against. you dont' knwo until you get there, granted when you entered your guaranteed a race, but sometimes that race you in will be of no benefit. you know what i very badly trying to say?

i didn't mean my post in an offensive way to p2p's i do enjoy them and i think they offer a great alternative, affordable day out compared to track racing.

biomech

when did point to pointing stop being an ameture sport?? also what penalties were carried by horses from trainers yards?? ive only been into pointing for a lil while but i cant recall any penalties being carried?? they dont tend to allow as many horses as they want to run in a race tho... think the normal safety limit is divide above 19?? mite be wrong on that... it does turn a race on its head tho as was said, when the race is divided..

convert

Penalties for horses from trainers' yards: It would have been years and years ago (I can't remember how long, though, but I'll find out a rough date....)

Divisions: As with racecourses, each point-to-point course is limited to the number of horses that can run safely in a race/division. It can be between 14 or 16 for a maiden race and 19, I think, for an open race. It wouldn't really be a good idea to have 30+ horses running in a race on a narrow course. However, unlike racecourses, point-to-points facilitate all entered horses who turn up on the day, even if it means dividing the races.

As for this turning the race on its head, maybe it does, but I'd never give too much concern to the horses in a race with me (apart from the fact that I try to avoid horses with FFFF in their form!!) Ok, sometimes you can be unlucky enough to have a 'hot' division, but there have been occasions where the absolute 'hot pot' with really great form has been beaten by a horse who has only mediocre form, both in a point-to-point and on the racecourse.

Regarding when point-to-points stopped being an amateur sport, I don't know if it's entirely fair to say they aren't completely amateur. They're run voluntarily by amateurs (the hunts) in venues which aren't permanent and the jockeys are termed as Qualified Riders, who have Mr/Miss/Ms in front of their names which donates an amateur status and who aren't meant to get paid. Obviously this isn't always the case, but I remember a few years ago a Turf Club representative tore strips of a QR because he received payment for riding a winner. I thought he was going to take the cash from the poor lad...

I think the entries got bigger when the economy started to take off and people started buying horses to race. Then when it started to be difficult to get a run on the racecourse due to the huge number of entries, people started to enter their horses in point-to-points because they were assured a run. There have been many a frustrated owner who have torn strips off the trainers and refused to pay the training fees until the horse got a run. But you are right in that they aren't as amateur as they used to be. I read an interview with a trainer/handler in the Field last week who said that when he used to ride in point-to-points a horse who was half fit would be in the shake up, whereas now if the horse isn't completely right on the day, it doesn't stand a chance. Maybe it's also down to the fact that more people have all weather facilities, too.

biomech

FFFF form lol... ya stay away from them... not always that easy tho.. esp when they pull in infront of you before the first and your stuck behind them for the first circuit. until you end up popping out over them 2 or 3 out when they end up on the deck:eek:.... the points are savage crack and a great outlet for both trainers n riders alike.. dont think theyll ever become a pro sport... the TC have enuf on their plate..... thanks for startin the thread n hopefully will fill up with chat during the winter... nite,,

Wicked

convert wrote: »

I read an interview with a trainer/handler in the Field last week who said that when he used to ride in point-to-points a horse who was half fit would be in the shake up, whereas now if the horse isn't completely right on the day, it doesn't stand a chance. [/quote

i was actually going to post the exact same thing there, but your just said it. i can't remember the trainers name, it was in the irish field.

i don't think the races will be as big this year with the recession and all,

nlm1980

Recession or no recession, jockeys will continue to be the main benefactors from point to points. And they moan about paying admission. The super duper balloting system the turf club have in place will ensure plenty of runners and divisions for the year. Someone has to run the horses they wont accomodate. Entry fee's need to to stabilise though to encourage owners to keep entering as someone said in a previous post committee's do rely on entries to fund the running of it, especially since sponsorship is down and HRI have reduced the grant.

Wicked

i don't think jockey's have to pay on the day to get into a p2p venue. i'd say alot of people chance their arm and get it.

convert

At most point-to-points jockeys don't have to pay. They either tell the person at the gate that they're riding (and are let in) or else pay, get a voucher which they give to the Secretary or assistant clerk of the scales, who refunds them the fee they paid at the gate. But jockeys who ride on the 'track' don't pay an admittance fee. Instead they receive a swipe card from HRI which may be used to gain free admittance to a racecourse each day they are riding. It doesn't work on any other day, as far as I know.

I thought most entry fees for point-to-points were normally pretty stable at €50? I think some entry fees are lower for restricted races, for example, an Adjacent Hunts' race or races that are restricted to horses who have a hunters' cert for the hunt who are running point-to-point. And, in fairness, while it is a lot of money, it's the same price for a schooling bumper or to school over fences or do a spot of work at a gallop, which isn't nearly as good as getting a race. Moreover, it's much cheaper than entry fees on the racecourse. Though the cost of getting the horse there, paying the supposedly 'amateur' riders, the groom, the diesel money, etc. is about the same.

smartaform

Anyone have any info on the track at AVAUNE, DUNGOURNEY in cork??

There seems to be little info on the p2p site about this place.

convert

smartaform wrote: »

Anyone have any info on the track at AVAUNE, DUNGOURNEY in cork??

There seems to be little info on the p2p site about this place.

Had a quick look on the p2p website and this is all I found: http://www.p2p.ie/courses.php No description for it, unfortunately.

You could try contact the United's Secretary for that venue.Taken from the p2p webstie:
United Hunt (F) Clonmult/Dungourney Point to Point. Mr. Noel Toomey
Garryduff, Dungourney, Co. Cork. The guys down there usually know their stuff and are quite helpful.

I can't put his number up in the thread, but you can find it here: http://www.p2p.ie/content.php?key=Secretaries

Let us know if you find out anymore about it and what you think of the course if you decide to head down there.

restaurants

convert wrote: »

Now that the point-to-point season has started again, I thought it might be a nice idea to start a 'ptp thread' and give people a place to discuss the sport if so desired and plug local meetings, etc.

Here's a list of the upcoming point-to-points until Christmas:

POINT TO POINT FIXTURE LIST

Great list. Well done.

smartaform

convert wrote: »

Had a quick look on the p2p website and this is all I found: http://www.p2p.ie/courses.php No description for it, unfortunately.

You could try contact the United's Secretary for that venue.Taken from the p2p webstie:
United Hunt (F) Clonmult/Dungourney Point to Point. Mr. Noel Toomey
Garryduff, Dungourney, Co. Cork. The guys down there usually know their stuff and are quite helpful.

I can't put his number up in the thread, but you can find it here: http://www.p2p.ie/content.php?key=Secretaries

Let us know if you find out anymore about it and what you think of the course if you decide to head down there.

Thanks for that convert..
The meeting on the 13th December ties in well with one of my fellow's prep's so i'm hoping to go down for a look at some stage before hand.

chippiec1

Hi, Just to pick up on the payment of jockeys....who or how do jockeys get paid at point to points? how much should they get per ride?

convert wrote: »

Penalties for horses from trainers' yards: It would have been years and years ago (I can't remember how long, though, but I'll find out a rough date....)

Divisions: As with racecourses, each point-to-point course is limited to the number of horses that can run safely in a race/division. It can be between 14 or 16 for a maiden race and 19, I think, for an open race. It wouldn't really be a good idea to have 30+ horses running in a race on a narrow course. However, unlike racecourses, point-to-points facilitate all entered horses who turn up on the day, even if it means dividing the races.

As for this turning the race on its head, maybe it does, but I'd never give too much concern to the horses in a race with me (apart from the fact that I try to avoid horses with FFFF in their form!!) Ok, sometimes you can be unlucky enough to have a 'hot' division, but there have been occasions where the absolute 'hot pot' with really great form has been beaten by a horse who has only mediocre form, both in a point-to-point and on the racecourse.

Regarding when point-to-points stopped being an amateur sport, I don't know if it's entirely fair to say they aren't completely amateur. They're run voluntarily by amateurs (the hunts) in venues which aren't permanent and the jockeys are termed as Qualified Riders, who have Mr/Miss/Ms in front of their names which donates an amateur status and who aren't meant to get paid. Obviously this isn't always the case, but I remember a few years ago a Turf Club representative tore strips of a QR because he received payment for riding a winner. I thought he was going to take the cash from the poor lad...

I think the entries got bigger when the economy started to take off and people started buying horses to race. Then when it started to be difficult to get a run on the racecourse due to the huge number of entries, people started to enter their horses in point-to-points because they were assured a run. There have been many a frustrated owner who have torn strips off the trainers and refused to pay the training fees until the horse got a run. But you are right in that they aren't as amateur as they used to be. I read an interview with a trainer/handler in the Field last week who said that when he used to ride in point-to-points a horse who was half fit would be in the shake up, whereas now if the horse isn't completely right on the day, it doesn't stand a chance. Maybe it's also down to the fact that more people have all weather facilities, too.

convert

Jockeys are usually paid somewhere around €100 to €150 per ride, depends on the individual in question, I suppose, and whether or not they rode a winner. I don't know who normally pays them on the day, depends if the owner is there, but it is the owner who pays them, be it on the day or added on to the training fees.

finbarrk

That must have been some open race in Cork on Sunday. I read in the Examiner that there was 3 ex Cheltenham winners in it. Dun Doire was the best of them finishing 3rd.

http://www.p2p.ie/results.php

chippiec1

Thanks for that. Heading down to Avaune, Dungourney this Sunday. Coming down from the north and not familar with that end of the country, can any one suggest a good hotel....?

That was a great open last Sun, Top Twig ran a great race again, he has been running out of his skin, and is rarely opposed in the northern circuit..

finbarrk

Try the Midleton Park.

http://www.midletonpark.com/

convert

chippiec1 wrote: »

Thanks for that. Heading down to Avaune, Dungourney this Sunday. Coming down from the north and not familar with that end of the country, can any one suggest a good hotel....?

That was a great open last Sun, Top Twig ran a great race again, he has been running out of his skin, and is rarely opposed in the northern circuit..

What's the course like down there? Perhaps you could let us know... I've not been there before, so would be interested in hearing feedback/opinions on it!

chippiec1

Course is quite tight, always on the turn, right handed. The ground was surprisingly good. Not great from spectators point of view, very hard to see the action, you could only see the part of the course you were at, if you know what I mean!

convert

So it'd be better suited to a handy horse than one who'd like courses such as Stradbally? Is it undulating or flat?