Czech move to block treaty!

prinz · 30-09-2009 9:26pm

truthisfree wrote: »

Do you bother to read any of the links you post?

"A majority of Icelanders want to begin membership negotiations with the European Union but a much smaller number actually want to join the 27-member bloc, a fresh poll showed Monday."

Do you bother to read what other people post. I'm fairly certain that's what I said above :rolleyes: accession talks? ring a bell?

prinz · 30-09-2009 9:29pm

Creation wrote: »

I have hopes and alot of respect for the Czech President.

If the President just holds out for 6/7 months. This filth of a treaty will be sunk faster than a stone in water by us Brits

Lets see if Europe would try and bully UK to vote 'Yes'.

Perhaps he will wait until the last minute, sign it, wave it in the air and declare that 'we have peace in our time'. Now that would be fitting IMO. Only took 70 odd years but it would be totally worth it :pac:

namloc1980 · 30-09-2009 9:31pm

Creation wrote: »

No does not mean no when it comes to Europe and Brussels. They have no respect for democracy and the peoples vote.

The people voted No because of concerns over EU intervention in areas that are sensitive to Ireland - the government got all 27 Heads of Government to declare various guarantees regarding these concerns and are now asking the people again, having got those guarantees in place. That is how Democracy works! As far as I know, no one will be marched into a polling booth on Friday and made vote Yes.

Rb · 30-09-2009 9:33pm

Ok Creation, I'll bite.

What is it, in the treaty text, that you have a problem with?

Or are you just pissed that the government promised to give you a referendum and then didn't bother?

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 9:33pm

prinz wrote: »

Do you bother to read what other people post. I'm fairly certain that's what I said above :rolleyes: accession talks? ring a bell?

The Icelandic people want to look at stronger trade agreements but do not want to join the EU bloc. I think the EEC was a brilliant idea, but this is a step too far.

I am taking bets off people that within the next decade we will see the EU involved in Afghanistan or whatever other third world country that the US and UK seem so fond of geting into long drawn wasteful wars.

Creation · 30-09-2009 9:35pm

prinz wrote: »

Perhaps he will wait until the last minute, sign it, wave it in the air and declare that 'we have peace in our time'. Now that would be fitting IMO. Only took 70 odd years but it would be totally worth it :pac:

We'll see.

The end of Labour is nearing and their legacy? War and destroying British soverignty.

If we do not have a vote on this treaty, i would support withdrawing from EU in its entirety. Britain should retain its right to veto any and all legislation that it deems is against British interest.
I am not nor will I ever be European.

prinz · 30-09-2009 9:35pm

truthisfree wrote: »

I am taking bets off people that within the next decade we will see the EU involved in Afghanistan or whatever other third world country that the US and UK seem so fond of geting into long drawn wasteful wars.

In what capacity?

Many EU countries already have a presence in Afghanistan etc...

Riddle101 · 30-09-2009 9:41pm

I guess we know where Declan Ganley will be going after Friday's elections:D

Anyway I think this is going to cause even more tension for Ireland. If we had of ratified the treaty the first time then maybe other countries wouldn't be acting up now. But after seeing the Irish vote, it seems Ireland has lit a fuse. If Czech do have their own referendum, then Ireland will proberly get the blame for allowing all the negativity to sink in. That's if the Yes vote is passed in Ireland and Czech decide on a referendum. Also with the possibility of the Conservatives in Britain coming in, I can't imagine it's going to be easy for the EU either.

BTW I'm not saying this as a yes or no voter, but as a speculator

Creation · 30-09-2009 9:44pm

Rb wrote: »

Ok Creation, I'll bite.

What is it, in the treaty text, that you have a problem with?

Or are you just pissed that the government promised to give you a referendum and then didn't bother?

I have a problem with the entire concept of treaty. I think it binds our countries too closely.
It moves closer to making us a federal state, we are not and never will be. We are a collection of independent, soverign nations.

My Parliament and its laws is soverign. Not EU law. Not Brussels.
To put it frankly. I do not want no one apart from the British having a say in our domestic policies.

How much do the British contribute to this filth? Guess.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8219344.stm

The cost of membership will rise to £6.4bn - equivalent to about £260 per UK household - from £4.1bn in 2009/10.

What do I get from EU? Sure i can travel to Ireland, France, Germany without the hassle of filling in forms. This is not worth 6.4billion pounds.

And I am beyond furious at us being refused a referedum.

If it passes or not is one thing. We will have a say on this treaty one way or another. People forget Eurosceptics protected and got David Cameron into power. They will not look kindly on being betrayed.
The reason Conservatives fell into internal warfare was over Europe. Cameron will not want it happening again

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 9:50pm

prinz wrote: »

In what capacity? Many EU countries already have a presence in Afghanistan etc...

Some, not that many, more have a peace-keeping presence. I guess the thing is we are moving closer and closer to being just like any of the other Super-powers in the world. do we want that?

Rb · 30-09-2009 9:51pm

@ Creation : So what you're saying is that you're plain anti-EU?

Are you part of the BNP or UKIP?

If there's nothing in particular you don't like about the treaty itself, I'd encourage you to bugger off elsewhere. We don't care about British independence here and are, for the most part, pro-EU. We also didn't appreciate the British mailing leaflets full of lies through our doors in order to push their own agenda. It's not really your business to be honest and it'd would be hilarious if no voters suddenly brought British independence into the argument given that for the most part they're nationalist/republic, anti-British madmen themselves.

namloc1980 · 30-09-2009 9:53pm

Creation wrote: »

I have a problem with the entire concept of treaty. I think it binds our countries too closely.
It moves closer to making us a federal state, we are not and never will be. We are a collection of independent, soverign nations.

My Parliament and its laws is soverign. Not EU law. Not Brussels.
To put it frankly. I do not want no one apart from the British having a say in our domestic policies.

How much do the British contribute to this filth? Guess.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8219344.stm

What do I get from EU? Sure i can travel to Ireland, France, Germany without the hassle of filling in forms. This is not worth 6.4billion pounds.

And I am beyond furious at us being refused a referedum.

If it passes or not is one thing. We will have a say on this treaty one way or another. People forget Eurosceptics protected and got David Cameron into power. They will not look kindly on being betrayed.
The reason Conservatives fell into internal warfare was over Europe. Cameron will not want it happening again

You're right...let's all go back to being our own Nation States and have nothing to do with the 'filth' of the EU and become nationalistic, flag waving......oh wait that was the way things were and resulted in 3 major wars in Europe between 1870 and 1945....no thanks.

Creation · 30-09-2009 9:55pm

Rb wrote: »

@ Creation : So what you're saying is that you're plain anti-EU?

Are you part of the BNP or UKIP?

If there's nothing in particular you don't like about the treaty itself, I'd encourage you to bugger off elsewhere. We don't care about British independence here and are, for the most part, pro-EU. We also didn't appreciate the British mailing leaflets full of lies through our doors in order to push their own agenda. It's not really your business to be honest and it'd would be hilarious if no voters suddenly brought British independence into the argument given that for the most part they're nationalist/republic, anti-British madmen themselves.

Neither.
I was part of Labour and now i am undecided.
It seems to be you who jumps to conclusions, Someone has to be part of a racist party to be Euro sceptic? And you accuse those against the treaty of lies? LOL!

The British mailed? Oh really?
Come now, no need to lie. I doubt the Govt. or anyone near it would bother with mailing.
If you are trying to insinuate a small party in UK sent mail to Ireland. I will have to ask, why are you so scared about some pieces of paper?

LOL
What Ireland decides is for itself and its vote will be respected by me, i do believe in Democracy no matter how much Europe does not.
And no worries, Lisbon will sink. One way or another.

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 9:57pm

Rb wrote: »

@ Creation : So what you're saying is that you're plain anti-EU?

Are you part of the BNP or UKIP?

If there's nothing in particular you don't like about the treaty itself, I'd encourage you to bugger off elsewhere. We don't care about British independence here and are, for the most part, pro-EU. We also didn't appreciate the British mailing leaflets full of lies through our doors in order to push their own agenda. It's not really your business to be honest and it'd would be hilarious if no voters suddenly brought British independence into the argument given that for the most part they're nationalist/republic, anti-British madmen themselves.

How dare you speak to someone who is not only our neighbour but also in the EU, as much as we give out about what the british did to us, the people there also gave tens of thousands of us employment. He has every right to take part in this debate as has anyone from the EU. I have often taken part in debates in the US about the US and it is very rare for anyone to tell me to mind my own business, if so they are taken to hand by Americans very quickly!

sceptre · 30-09-2009 9:59pm

Creation wrote: »

this filth

Heavens to betsy.

I know there's always a first time for most things and while I certainly don't agree with people who believe that Ireland shouldn't have joined the EEC, that we should leave the EU or some other questions, I've never had the experience of anyone referring to the European Union/European experiment/peaceful place to the east of us wot we are also in and we trade a lot place as "this filth".

No, I'm sorry to be blunt but while everyone's entitled to reasonable opinion I'm not sure yours gives me all that much. I'm sure with that as my premise it works both ways but I don't even read the cartoons in the Daily Telegraph all that much.

Heavens, "this filth". Fair enough. Not for turning.

Rb · 30-09-2009 10:04pm

Creation wrote: »

Neither.
I was part of Labour and now i am undecided.
It seems to be you who jumps to conclusions, Someone has to be part of a racist party to be Euro sceptic? And you accuse those against the treaty of lies? LOL!

Careful now lest you excite yourself, you'll find I was merely questioning your allegiances as we've had several interventions here by posters with irrational No agendas from other countries trying to push their "message" on the Irish people.

Yes, I do accuse those against the Treaty of lies, or even more correctly, the complete lack of any factual content to their campaigns. Some are blatant, deliberate lies, some are complete misunderstandings due to the authors being morons.

However, it is something that you'd have to be in Ireland to actually witness.

Creation wrote:

The British mailed? Oh really?
Come now, no need to lie. I doubt the Govt. or anyone near it would bother with mailing.
If you are trying to insinuate a small party in UK sent mail to Ireland. I will have to ask, why are you so scared about some pieces of paper?

It's not an insinuation, it's a fact and is documented here.

Creation wrote:

LOL
What Ireland decides is for itself and its vote will be respected by me, i do believe in Democracy no matter how much Europe does not.
And no worries, Lisbon will sink. One way or another.

And if it doesn't?

No offense, but thus far you've merely shown yourself to be ignorant of the treaty itself, or perhaps merely ill-informed, and completely unaware of the events surrounding the referendum here. I'm open to correction, and I'm sure you may try to fight a good case, but unless you can give actual, factual reasons as to why this treaty is bad for Ireland then there's no point in debating the issue with you.

Rb · 30-09-2009 10:08pm

truthisfree wrote: »

How dare you speak to someone who is not only our neighbour but also in the EU, as much as we give out about what the british did to us, the people there also gave tens of thousands of us employment. He has every right to take part in this debate as has anyone from the EU. I have often taken part in debates in the US about the US and it is very rare for anyone to tell me to mind my own business, if so they are taken to hand by Americans very quickly!

No, sorry but unless he has reasons why the treaty is bad for Ireland (or the EU), then what part of a debate does he fill?

People from other countries posting here to encourage a No vote for their own reasons, such as the Poles we've seen asking for a No because they didn't get a referendum, or now in this case a Brit asking for a No so that the UK can remain "independent", shouldn't be welcome here.

It merely distracts the topic of the treaty even further than the No side have already taken it. We vote on Friday for or against a treaty based on our perception of the benefits or demerits it has for our country and our membership of the EU. If other countries have an issue, let them take it up with their government.

If they wish to engage in actual debate/conversation on the matter then by all means go ahead, but if they're merely here to push an agenda that has nothing to do with our referendum then they shouldn't be here as far as I'm concerned.

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 10:19pm

Rb wrote: »

No, sorry but unless he has reasons why the treaty is bad for Ireland (or the EU), then what part of a debate does he fill?

People from other countries posting here to encourage a No vote for their own reasons, such as the Poles we've seen asking for a No because they didn't get a referendum, or now in this case a Brit asking for a No so that the UK can remain "independent", shouldn't be welcome here.

It merely distracts the topic of the treaty even further than the No side have already taken it. We vote on Friday for or against a treaty based on our perception of the benefits or demerits it has for our country and our membership of the EU. If other countries have an issue, let them take it up with their government.

If they wish to engage in actual debate/conversation on the matter then by all means go ahead, but if they're merely here to push an agenda that has nothing to do with our referendum then they shouldn't be here as far as I'm concerned.

I think the link he posted spoke for itself and how much money this is costing the UK, remember we have been getting money from them so far and you can be sure we will be paying it back as well.

This treaty effects all of the EU and we should welcome people from outside Ireland and indeed outside Europe to debate it, what agenda is there but the freedoms we have as a people in this together.

The vast majority of people I have spoken to in the EU feel this treaty is bad for them but they did not have a constitution like ours that gives them the right to vote on it. Just how much our constitution is worth after this is anyone's guess? I fear very little and fear it may be our last referendum ever. All the rest will be passed in Brussels with the agreement of our government.

CCCP^ · 30-09-2009 10:22pm

Rb wrote: »

It merely distracts the topic of the treaty even further than the No side have already taken it. We vote on Friday for or against a treaty based on our perception of the benefits or demerits it has for our country and our membership of the EU. If other countries have an issue, let them take it up with their government.

You know both sides have completely taken the piss in this referendum, the Yes side is just as bad, if not worse. Vote Yes to stay in Europe. Vote Yes for jobs! I can't see anywhere in this treaty or any other one before that we may be ejected from the EU for a second No, that economic recovery will begin if we vote Yes.

I was thinking about what you said earlier, about how the government commissioned a company to ask No voters in a survey why they voted No. It's been banded about here alot that 42% of No voters voted No because they didn't understand the treaty. Then the government sought assurances from the EU on a number of issues they said people were worried about, but if people didn't understand the treaty in the first place, how can the government seek assurances? What are they supposed to be based on?

Have you ever heard in your life, a government so interested in the concerns of its voters? If we had voted Yes, it wouldn't have been investigated if people understood the treaty.

They've just given us a load of bs reasons to vote Yes, the major one being neutrality because Ireland is not neutral.

Sam Vimes · 30-09-2009 10:37pm

CCCP^ wrote: »

Vote Yes to stay in Europe.
I can't see anywhere in this treaty or any other one before that we may be ejected from the EU for a second No

No one on the yes side has ever said that. That is a straw man of what is meant

CCCP^ wrote: »

Vote Yes for jobs!
that economic recovery will begin if we vote Yes.

That's been explained a thousand times on this forum. It generates confidence and a no vote generates uncertainty. Recovery is built on confidence and recessions are built on uncertainty

Rb · 30-09-2009 10:38pm

CCCP^ wrote: »

You know both sides have completely taken the piss in this referendum, the Yes side is just as bad, if not worse. Vote Yes to stay in Europe. Vote Yes for jobs! I can't see anywhere in this treaty or any other one before that we may be ejected from the EU for a second No, that economic recovery will begin if we vote Yes.

This is a point that the No side are focusing on a lot lately, particularly Mr.Desperate Ganley and again, it's merely a distraction. Those posters have been addressed, noone is happy with them but they're a damn sight better than fear-mongering crap that has been posted around our lovely towns and cities by the No side. I mentioned in another thread that I came across these posters earlier http://irishantiwar.org/files/upload-images/posters/irish-anti-war-leaflet.jpg

No to war? Really? Lisbon Treaty is for War? C'mon. Unfortunately a lot of the Yes side's time has been spent debunking the crap from these posters that has seeped into the minds of the vulnerable. The treaty really does sell itself, but so much nonsensical crap has been attached to it, even unrelated issues such as our satisfaction with FF, that those going to vote No on friday won't really have an explanation based anywhere near the treaty contents to do so.

That will be embarrassing, I don't care how you put it but if these people are surveyed this could potentially be humiliating for our country and its membership.

CCCP^ wrote:

I was thinking about what you said earlier, about how the government commissioned a company to ask No voters in a survey why they voted No. It's been banded about here alot that 42% of No voters voted No because they didn't understand the treaty. Then the government sought assurances from the EU on a number of issues they said people were worried about, but if people didn't understand the treaty in the first place, how can the government seek assurances? What are they supposed to be based on?

Abortion, Conscription etc were all "reasons" people gave for voting No last time, not really genuine reasons mind you but supposedly concerns in the minds of the electorate. Add in those who don't know, those who are anti-establishment etc and you've a side full of...ignorance really. They had to give a few reasons for the rejection, it's as simple as that. They can't just say "They didn't want it, because they weren't arsed reading about it", that's just embarrassing.

They worked with what they were given which admittedly wasn't much, but since those things have been addressed and now information has been widely published and is readily accessible, people really can't complain...yet they're giving the very reasons from last time! Even though the issues have been addressed!

CCCP^ wrote:

Have you ever heard in your life, a government so interested in the concerns of its voters? If we had voted Yes, it wouldn't have been investigated if people understood the treaty.

They've just given us a load of bs reasons to vote Yes, the major one being neutrality because Ireland is not neutral.

Well the Government is pro-EU and pro-Treaty, so if people voted Yes then it wouldn't really matter. Deal done, everyone is happy.

Different case with a No though, questions must be answered, massive sums of taxpayers money has gone into this treaty, they're not just going to go "Oh, they don't want it, sure we'll leave it then", it'd be reckless to do so considering the cost of the project. Then when they see that they're easily addressed concerns, they do so and what do we think now.

It's just a shame that so many anti-EU organisations and parties have came to the forefront and spread misinformation, fear and anti-establishment attitudes to push their own silly agendas.

Rb · 30-09-2009 10:39pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

No one on the yes side has ever said that. That is a straw man of what is meant

That's been explained a thousand times on this forum. It generates confidence and a no vote generates uncertainty. Recovery is built on confidence and recessions are built on uncertainty

Indeed, confidence in the economy is one of the top things that will escalate a recovery and stability iirc, and from what I've read we've the lowest confidence out of all the countries currently still in a recession, although I *think* Spain may have surpassed us in that respect(?)

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 10:39pm

CCCP^ wrote: »

You know both sides have completely taken the piss in this referendum, the Yes side is just as bad, if not worse. Vote Yes to stay in Europe. Vote Yes for jobs! I can't see anywhere in this treaty or any other one before that we may be ejected from the EU for a second No, that economic recovery will begin if we vote Yes.

I was thinking about what you said earlier, about how the government commissioned a company to ask No voters in a survey why they voted No. It's been banded about here alot that 42% of No voters voted No because they didn't understand the treaty. Then the government sought assurances from the EU on a number of issues they said people were worried about, but if people didn't understand the treaty in the first place, how can the government seek assurances? What are they supposed to be based on?

Have you ever heard in your life, a government so interested in the concerns of its voters? If we had voted Yes, it wouldn't have been investigated if people understood the treaty.

They've just given us a load of bs reasons to vote Yes, the major one being neutrality because Ireland is not neutral.

Quite a brilliant point! had not heard it put like that before.
That is because they do not understand the people, quite simply!

senordingdong · 30-09-2009 10:41pm

How exactly could the Czech block the treaty?

Surely if it doesn't get ratified it will just continue to go back to the drawing board untill a version that suits the Czech will arise?

Sam Vimes · 30-09-2009 10:45pm

senordingdong wrote: »

How exactly could the Czech block the treaty?

Surely if it doesn't get ratified it will just continue to go back to the drawing board untill a version that suits the Czech will arise?

Yes that will probably happen. They will block it, the reasons they blocked it will be addressed and they will no longer feel the need to block it. That's how democracy works

K-9 · 30-09-2009 11:05pm

CCCP^ wrote: »

You know both sides have completely taken the piss in this referendum, the Yes side is just as bad, if not worse. Vote Yes to stay in Europe. Vote Yes for jobs! I can't see anywhere in this treaty or any other one before that we may be ejected from the EU for a second No, that economic recovery will begin if we vote Yes.

I was thinking about what you said earlier, about how the government commissioned a company to ask No voters in a survey why they voted No. It's been banded about here alot that 42% of No voters voted No because they didn't understand the treaty. Then the government sought assurances from the EU on a number of issues they said people were worried about, but if people didn't understand the treaty in the first place, how can the government seek assurances? What are they supposed to be based on?

Have you ever heard in your life, a government so interested in the concerns of its voters? If we had voted Yes, it wouldn't have been investigated if people understood the treaty.

They've just given us a load of bs reasons to vote Yes, the major one being neutrality because Ireland is not neutral.

Oh Good God of almighty.

42% didn't understand so 58%?

A hardcore would prefer we left the EU or reverted back to the EEC and their concerns cannot be met, as that would be a vociferous minority over ruling a big majority.

happymondays · 30-09-2009 11:42pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Yes that will probably happen. They will block it, the reasons they blocked it will be addressed and they will no longer feel the need to block it. That's how democracy works

looks like the sneaky czech's plan is to delay not block the signing long enough for the Uk elections take place and cameron allows a referendem.
If the british people vote no for this then lisbon will surely be dead in the water.

it may comeback in another guise but that would be years down the road.

i think though if we vote Yes then there will be so much presure put on the czech's that they will sign it before the brits can vote no.

moogester · 01-10-2009 12:25am

I've just had a thought.

The British government have already ratified the treaty so would a UK referendum be able to overturn this or are the conservatives just trying to gain votes by promising a referendum which wont have any effect?

marco_polo · 01-10-2009 12:27am

moogester wrote: »

I've just had a thought.

The British government have already ratified the treaty so would a UK referendum be able to overturn this or are the conservatives just trying to gain votes by promising a referendum which wont have any effect?

Funnily enough I was just about to post this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6855217.ece

David Cameron has confirmed on the eve of the Irish referendum that a Tory government would reconsider its promised referendum on the Lisbon treaty if it has been ratified by the rest of the European Union by the time they come to power.

The Tory leader said that a fully ratified treaty would present an incoming Conservative government with a “new set of circumstances” that it would have to address at the time.

K-9 · 01-10-2009 12:49am

Look, what the Czechs or indeed the UK do, is entirely up to themselves.

It's the same here.

Czech move to block treaty!

Comments