Czech move to block treaty!

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CCCP^ wrote: »

Except in this country. Europe went right, we went left, odd that. Have you heard of the French and Dutch votes on the European Constitution, which is the Lisbon treaty? Why don't you try pick apart the rest of what I said earlier, too hard to spin in the 'right' direction?

I am not interested in "spin".

The European elections gave the electorate of the other member states an ideal opportunity to make an issue out of Lisbon and/or not having referenda on EU Treaties. They did not do so.

Therefore, either the electorates of the other member states mustn't know what they are doing or else you have no idea of what they want or don't want. I'll leave it to you to decide which of the alternatives it is.

K-9

mayordenis wrote: »

There's still a logical failure here - if someone makes there choice based on something like the church's stance then there vote is almost certainly going to be wasted.
Anyway rtdh has no obligation to be rallying for a yes vote and I'm undecided here the only thing I'm sure of is that both sides have covered themselves in feces.

Completely agreed.

His Dad said something he thought was fact, it isn't.

The problem with your point is, the Church doesn't have a position.

If RTDH had pointed that out, it would be up to the Dad to make his own mind up.

mayordenis

K-9 wrote: »

Completely agreed.

His Dad said something he thought was fact, it isn't.

The problem with your point is, the Church doesn't have a position.

If RTDH had pointed that out, it would be up to the Dad to make his own mind up.

I know what you mean - but sorry I'm probably not explaining my view properly - basically if the church is neutral the person would probably find someone else to just base there opinion fully on - say the local priest may not be exactly 100% backing the church's stance which would be normal enough and might say yes/no based on some random prejudice or any other reason, and again the man in question would be voting based on someone else's whim.

K-9

mayordenis wrote: »

I know what you mean - but sorry I'm probably not explaining my view properly - basically if the church is neutral the person would probably find someone else to just base there opinion fully on - say the local priest may not be exactly 100% backing the church's stance which would be normal enough and might say yes/no based on some random prejudice or any other reason, and again the man in question would be voting based on someone else's whim.

A grudging Yes, but the Catholic Church is the deciding factor here. That was the reason, "I'm voting No!"

It's an important point as Abortion and indeed Euthanasia was brought up in the last Referendum and indeed this one, though less so.

He may not like his Parish Priest and know his superiors do not approve of him influencing the congregation.

Scaremongering is not a Nice tactic as RTDH well knows.

PS. This is not about RTDH, it is the general idea of knowing something isn't true and not correcting it, regardless of your vote. If my Dad said a No means we'll be kicked out of the EU, I would say that isn't true and nobody has said that.

P. Breathnach

CCCP^ wrote: »

... Have you heard of the French and Dutch votes on the European Constitution, which is the Lisbon treaty? ...

I have heard of the French and Dutch votes on the European Constitution. The Lisbon treaty is not the same thing.

free-man

moondogspot wrote: »

I find it laughable that I received an infraction for reporting this story on the Czechs earlier

today. It seems anything that threatens the Yes side here warrants an infraction.

You're joking right?

How could you receive a warning for posting a link and giving your opinion on a story?

K-9

free-man wrote: »

You're joking right?

How could you receive a warning for posting a link and giving your opinion on a story?

Or maybe it wasn't that?

CCCP^

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have heard of the French and Dutch votes on the European Constitution. The Lisbon treaty is not the same thing.

Last time I checked it was the same thing except with references to a Constitution dropped, look at it yourself.

sceptre

moondogspot wrote: »

I find it laughable that I received an infraction for reporting this story on the Czechs earlier

today. It seems anything that threatens the Yes side here warrants an infraction.

Actually you got two infractions yesterday. One was from me for clearly insulting another poster, in breach of the clearly posted and stickied Politics charter which you may not have read and the second was from Scottlaw for posting the entire text of a story without including any commentary or a view from yourself (apart from "what it says"), as the charter requires and hence being in breach of the charter, which I'm pretty sure you haven't read.

Read the charter.

It also includes a section that says that complaints about moderation go in the Help Desk, which you also appear to have missed when making the above post.

Hence comments about this post also go on the Help Desk or you can PM me. Don't play the victim until after you read the charter - everyone else has to abide by it and you don't get to ignore it.

Read the charter. It's waaay shorter than the Lisbon treaty. And more importantly, abide by the charter and you'll never have to feel victimised for merely being expected to follow the same rules as everyone else. Like I said above, rplies to this can be sent to me by PM or posted on the Help Desk. Nothing else. That's definitely in the charter.

The topic is the attempt by this group of Czech senators to block the Lisbon treaty ratification. Feel free to discuss that people:)

Irish and Proud

WeeBushy wrote: »

That's opinion.

Besides how other countries ratify treaties is no concern of ours, the EU's or the Lisbon Treaty. Who are we to tell other countries how run themselves?

...and as a democratic person, I say...

Who are we to decide that Lisbon should go ahead above the heads of the other 496m EU citizens - especially when we know that at least some people have been blatantly disenfranchised - such as the French and Dutch. Also, are we not being told what to do here in Ireland - especially in how we should vote - and the fact that we have to vote on the same treaty in order to get it right??? Also, since it is the European taxpayer who paid for much of our infrastructure, do we not owe it to these people to tell the politicians to go back and ask the people of the EU with regard to the direction the EU is taking???

For the sake of EU Democracy, I'm voting No!!!

Scofflaw

Irish and Proud wrote: »

...and as a democratic person, I say...

Who are we to decide that Lisbon should go ahead above the heads of the other 496m EU citizens - especially when we know that at least some people have been blatantly disenfranchised - such as the French and Dutch. Also, are we not being told what to do here in Ireland - especially in how we should vote - and the fact that we have to vote on the same treaty in order to get it right??? Also, since it is the European taxpayer who paid for much of our infrastructure, do we not owe it to these people to tell the politicians to go back and ask the people of the EU with regard to the direction the EU is taking???

For the sake of EU Democracy, I'm voting No!!!

As another democratic person I could say "who are we to decide that Lisbon should not go above the heads of the other 496m EU citizens - we must vote Yes".

Both claims are equally silly, and both have the same answer - you're voting purely for Ireland. The other countries have had their ratifications (or not) their way, and we're having ours our way - same as we have done for 20 years. Our decision is up to us to decide on the basis of what is good for Ireland, not that of notional other EU citizens who you believe would vote a particular way.

regards,
Scofflaw

P. Breathnach

CCCP^ wrote: »

Last time I checked it was the same thing except with references to a Constitution dropped, look at it yourself.

I have looked. You are wrong.

free-man

Scofflaw wrote: »

Both claims are equally silly, and both have the same answer - you're voting purely for Ireland.

Agreed

Scofflaw wrote: »

The other countries have had their ratifications (or not) their way

Apart from the British who were promised a referendum and then denied it* and not forgetting France and Holland.

* Which is probably the reason the UK press are so against ratification now.

ei.sdraob

free-man wrote: »

Apart from the British who were promised a referendum and then denied it*

* Which is probably the reason the UK press are so against ratification now.

well the British want to keep their Monarchy and they dont have a constitution

who are we to tell them what to do, thats who they like it

tho then again their UKIP bulldogs have no issues with sending racist leaflets to Irish homes and interfering in our affairs

/

CCCP^

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have looked. You are wrong.

Ok, how am I wrong?

free-man

ei.sdraob wrote: »

well the British want to keep their Monarchy and they dont have a constitution
/

The British have an opinion which might scupper the treaty, lets not allow them a referendum.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

tho then again their UKIP bulldogs have no issues with sending racist leaflets to Irish homes and interfering in our affairs

I've not yet seen these leaflets, they couldn't be more racist than our Irish politicians snapping at them in recent weeks and stirring up old tensions.

prinz

free-man wrote: »

I've not yet seen these leaflets, they couldn't be more racist than our Irish politicians snapping at them in recent weeks and stirring up old tensions.

Talking about Ireland being swamped by Muslim Turkish immigrants.... using a picture of an actual turkey bird to represent the country and it's population. Hmm. Any comparitive comments from our politicians? :rolleyes:

CCCP^

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have looked. You are wrong.

There are various subtle changes in the Lisbon treaty compared to the EU Constitution. The new text containing amendments has 75,080 words on 350 pages while Lisbon has 67,850 words on 295 pages. Dropped are the references to symbols of a Union state such as flags and an anthem, but they will still be used in practice. The charter of Fundamental rights was removed as a seperate chapter, it was part II of the rejected Constitution, but its still in present in Lisbon and declared to be legally binding in article 6 of the TEU of Lisbon.

The word Constitution and the concept of the precedence of EU law have been removed from Lisbon, but its still there, look at at Declaration 27. If you look at the back of the treaty, you can find this.

From a legal perspective, Lisbon, like the Constitution, will continue to have precedence over the constitutions of the EU's member states.

Even the chairman of the Constitution Convention, former French PM Valery Giscard d'Estain has stated publicly that "the treaty of Lisbon is the same as the rejected constitution, only the format has been changed". You need to look harder.

ShooterSF

ei.sdraob wrote: »

tho then again their UKIP bulldogs have no issues with sending racist leaflets to Irish homes and interfering in our affairs

/

Link? Or even a racist quote from said leaflet? I'm sure the courts would like to know about it...

moondogspot

Just wondering but have RTE even reported this yet?

Euro_Kraut

moondogspot wrote: »

Just wondering but have RTE even reported this yet?

Does google not work on your computer?

Euro_Kraut

ShooterSF wrote: »

Link? Or even a racist quote from said leaflet? I'm sure the courts would like to know about it...

They depicted a country as an animal with a milestone around it neck.

You don't have to defend everything a person on the NO side does you know.

moondogspot

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Does google not work on your computer?

Hop out of the wrong side of the bed again this morning, did you Euro Kraut? Many thanks for

your help, you are far too kind & a gentleman too.

ei.sdraob

free-man wrote: »

I've not yet seen these leaflets, they couldn't be more racist than our Irish politicians snapping at them in recent weeks and stirring up old tensions.

here you go

marco_polo

Some differing opinions as to how long the process will take.

http://www.radio.cz/en/article/120761

Jan Kudrna is a Constitutional expert, he thinks the court will not drag its heels:

I suppose that we will have a decision in one month or maybe six weeks, because last year it took about five months, I think, and this time the situation is different. It is simpler for the Constitutional Court, because the court decided on the main questions last year. So now there just remain the minor problems.

Prime Minister Jan Fischer, meanwhile, has said that a verdict could be up to six months in coming.

Rb

CCCP^ wrote: »

I'm sorry, from your comments, I was led to believe that people should violently overthrow their elected governments in order to demand change? I guess most people in Europe would rather do things peacefully rather than force their own citizens into a frightened and threathened position where they will do exactly as they desire if they believe there is no alternative, as is our current position.

We've been through two world wars, vicious civil wars, genocide, famines, revolutions. I don't think the apathetic and beleaguered people of Europe could be bothered to get out there and halt Lisbon where there faced with the greatest economic crisis of our times, mostly because they aren't aware of what is happening. When they were asked to approve of the European Constitution in the Netherlands and France, they voted No. The European Constitution IS the Lisbon Treaty, they've just dropped the references to the Constitution, even the highest levels of government across the EU agree that the treaty preserves the main substance of the Constitution. In essence, its the same thing. It has just been reworked in order for it to be passed without resorting to ask the people of Europe if they approve or not. You can't deny this. Obviously the people of Europe cannot be trusted and tasked to approve of the future of Europe, where we want to go and what kind of world we want to live in.

That's a joke and it makes a mockery of us all, robs us of our dignity, of our democratic rights, but of course if you don't have the sense to realise your getting shafted, then you deserve everything you get. Lisbon SHOULD have been renegotiated if not condemned to history. Why did nobody ask why the French and Dutch said No to the EC? Is that gift only reserved to the Irish? Essentially the electorates wish there was also ignored since the EC is the Lisbon Treaty. But of course when Sarkozy visits Dublin, the collaborators are informed they must ask the same question to their subjects again! Lets like a bad episode of Allo Allo!

The last time I checked, the combined populations of France and the Netherlands were more than that of Spain and Luxembourg. Luxembourg is smaller than Leinster with about 500,000 people there and Spain's vote recieved one of the lowest voter turnouts of it's democratic history. If it had to be asked to the rest of Europe, they would have voted overwhemingly No. If democracy is about who votes more one way than the other as it appears to be to you namloc1980, I suggest you sit down and do the maths.

Europeans do not want to relinquish their national sovereignty, we have paid dearly for it in blood and misery, waited decades, hundreds of years, but we prevailed because we were brave, wanted our own voice, because our fathers and mothers were strong people. With Lisbon, our future is going to be decided by a core few, because presumingly little nations cannot survive anymore in the present day and age and cannot be trusted to make their own decisions anymore. We are leaving a multilateral world and entering one where one voice will be heard.

By 2014, what do you think Ireland's population will be? 60 million? 100 million? Because with Qualified Majority Voting, thats the only way our voice will be heard. The only way we can survive in the Lisbon EU is if we team up with smaller nations. With Lisbon, smaller countries will suffer and we are definetly one of those, because by that time, there will be a smaller European Commission, regardless of what people say about Nice and losing our Commissioner. Any serious renegotiation of Lisbon should have included a right by Ireland to keep its Commissioner. By 2014, nations such as the Ukraine and Turkey could be in the EU, and with QMV, they could have the potential to outweigh our say since new accession states are they mostly likely to suckle off the EU tit in order to subdue their populations that they are leading them to a better way of life. By 2014 also many of our own checks will be removed like national vetoes. What happens from Lisbon onwards may not be voted on, may not be renegotiated. It will be diktat.

With Lisbon, EU law will supercede Irish law. In Britain, they changed that so that British law would remain the higher power across the UK and also in Poland, why couldn't we have done the same? Was that too much to ask?

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Bottom line is that you claim lots of people have a problem with not being allowed vote, I say there's no sufficient evidence and sweet fuck all is being done about it anywhere in Europe. That is the truth, nothing can be done about it and you can bring the Nazis or whatever else you want in to try and hide that fact but it still remains, noone cares enough about it. A few crazy Poles and Italians came here to post about it, and moan in their blogs, that's it so get over it. Most of Europe want the treaty, most have ratified it and until you can actually prove otherwise, all you points about wars and economic crisis are worthless.

ShooterSF

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

They depicted a country as an animal with a milestone around it neck.

You don't have to defend everything a person on the NO side does you know.

I don't. I have never defended Coir once for example. I am pro-choice and don't believe in neutrality. However, I don't see anything racist in the flyer. I see anti-immigration material and a pet peeve of mine is people comparing the two.

CCCP^

Rb wrote: »

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Bottom line is that you claim lots of people have a problem with not being allowed vote, I say there's no sufficient evidence and sweet fuck all is being done about it anywhere in Europe. That is the truth, nothing can be done about it and you can bring the Nazis or whatever else you want in to try and hide that fact but it still remains, noone cares enough about it. A few crazy Poles and Italians came here to post about it, and moan in their blogs, that's it so get over it. Most of Europe want the treaty, most have ratified it and until you can actually prove otherwise, all you points about wars and economic crisis are worthless.

It's been rejected twice by the Dutch and French, what more do you want? How can you ignore that? We've even rejected this.

Rb

CCCP^ wrote: »

It's been rejected twice by the Dutch and French, what more do you want? How can you ignore that? We've even rejected this.

The reasons for rejection were addressed and removed and they have now ratified, without much protest it appears so we can happily say they didn't not want it. (French and Dutch)

Our "concerns" over the treaty were addressed and we're now being asked about it again, now that we've guarantees about these "concerns". Also, the overwhelming majority of no voters last time didn't know what they were rejecting. They shouldn't have even voted on it really.

So, not good enough CCCP^, sorry.

CCCP^

Rb wrote: »

The reasons for rejection were addressed and removed and they have now ratified, without much protest it appears so we can happily say they didn't not want it. (French and Dutch)

Our "concerns" over the treaty were addressed and we're now being asked about it again, now that we've guarantees about these "concerns". Also, the overwhelming majority of no voters last time didn't know what they were rejecting. They shouldn't have even voted on it really.

So, not good enough CCCP^, sorry.

Well, maybe not good enough for a bunch of EU apoligists, but none of these guarantees are good enough for me. I think its a joke and you dont seem to get it. How many times do people have to be forced and coerced into this? Atleast we Lisbon is defeated in Friday, we won't be asked again Then its over!