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Thousands of Non-Irish sent polling cards.

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245

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    #32
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    PaulieD wrote: »
    I couldnt give a damn who you married. But please, continue to play the martyr.

    He has acquired Irish citizenship in accordance with the law. He has no requirement to explain himself further to you.


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    #33
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    procure11 wrote: »
    Coming back to your question???

    It would have been a honest mistake and nothing to worry about ..simply because the non-nationals are not eligible to vote anyway,so they would politely be turned back on polling day.
    No cause for alarm!!!

    Reread the thread. I have always voted by using my polling card, I have never been asked to prove I am an Irish citizen.

    There most definitely is a cause for alarm. This issue is for the Irish people to decide, not the vast throngs of foreigners who live here. Mistakes, and I use the word loosely, do not happen like this by accident. Definitely not in two electoral wards. For all we know this could be the tip of the iceberg.


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    #34
    ghost_ie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ghost_ie


    If the Yes side win, we'll hear no more about this.
    If the No side win, we'll be told we have to vote again as people who weren't to vote had been sent polling cards by mistake.

    This is not the only cock-up with polling cards. I know one person - and have heard anecdotally of others - who have been sent 2 polling cards, one for their present address and the second to their parents' house although they have not lived there for several years. My friend never uses the second card, but how many people do?


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    #35
    cligereen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭cligereen


    I'm not in Kildare but another county. I'm not an Irish citizen either but not only do I have a vote according to the register, I have two! Each in different polling stations (due to my townland address being written in two different ways). :rolleyes:


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    #36
    procure11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭procure11


    PaulieD wrote: »
    Reread the thread. I have always voted by using my polling card, I have never been asked to prove I am an Irish citizen.

    There most definitely is a cause for alarm. This issue is for the Irish people to decide, not the vast throngs of foreigners who live here. Mistakes, and I use the word loosely, do not happen like this by accident. Definitely not in two electoral wards. For all we know this could be the tip of the iceberg.

    So what are you implying in a nutshell??

    The Lisbon treaty vote in Ireland is going to have some element of fraud to it?


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    #37
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    ghost_ie wrote: »
    If the Yes side win, we'll hear no more about this.
    If the No side win, we'll be told we have to vote again as people who weren't to vote had been sent polling cards by mistake.

    Unless they cast a vote there is no reason to dispute the outcome either way. Even if they have polling cards they cannot vote.

    This is not the only cock-up with polling cards. I know one person - and have heard anecdotally of others - who have been sent 2 polling cards, one for their present address and the second to their parents' house although they have not lived there for several years. My friend never uses the second card, but how many people do?

    If they vote twice they are committing electoral fraud. It is a crime that carries a prison sentence.


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    #38
    procure11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭procure11


    ghost_ie wrote: »
    If the Yes side win, we'll hear no more about this.
    If the No side win, we'll be told we have to vote again as people who weren't to vote had been sent polling cards by mistake.

    This is not the only cock-up with polling cards. I know one person - and have heard anecdotally of others - who have been sent 2 polling cards, one for their present address and the second to their parents' house although they have not lived there for several years. My friend never uses the second card, but how many people do?

    I understand your point but are you honestly saying that because some (lets say???) 10000 ineligible people vote on Oct 2nd..it would somehow magically decide the outcome.Voting is very much like statistics where there is room for error margin.

    I believe that whatever the outcome on friday...folks should accept it and move on.There is so much more at stake than the lisbon treaty!


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    #39
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    cligereen wrote: »
    I'm not in Kildare but another county. I'm not an Irish citizen either but not only do I have a vote according to the register, I have two! Each in different polling stations (due to my townland address being written in two different ways). :rolleyes:

    That is terrible. It really bugs me when people in the Local Authority make mistake like this. Obviously you cannot vote. It then looks like voter turnout is a lot lower than it actually is.

    The franchise sections of the County Councils has legal responsibly to ensure the register is accurate. Somebody is not doing their job properly. Our democracy is built on the basis of free and fair elections. It is crucial that no mistakes are made. I honestly believe those responsible for such mistakes such have the grace to resign their positions.


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    #40
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    procure11 wrote: »
    I understand your point but are you honestly saying that because some (lets say???) 10000 ineligible people vote on Oct 2nd..it would somehow magically decide the outcome.Voting is very much like statistics where there is room for error margin.


    The 1995 Divorce referendum was decide by less than 10,000 votes.

    That was after a recount. IIRC, the first count had just over 1,000 votes of a difference.

    Of course Georgre Bush Jr got elected President by about 500 votes.


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    #41
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    procure11 wrote: »
    So what are you implying in a nutshell??

    The Lisbon treaty vote in Ireland is going to have some element of fraud to it?

    Read the thread, Procure. Do not just take my word for it, there are posters clearly stating, that they are not Irish citizens, yet they have been issued with polling cards.

    Make of that what you will.


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    #42
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    Obviously you cannot vote. It then looks like voter turnout is a lot lower than it actually is.

    Why is it obvious that he cannot vote? There is a German citizen, on this very thread, stating that he voted in previous elections. In fact, he informed the relevant authorities of their mistake and what happens? They issue him with a polling card for this referendum.

    Seriously, how difficult is it to correctly issue 2 million Irish citizens with polling cards?


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    #43
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    PaulieD wrote: »
    Why is it obvious that he cannot vote?

    I mean that it would illegal for him for vote. Not that it would be impossible.

    Seriously, how difficult is it to correctly issue 2 million Irish citizens with polling cards?

    It appears to very difficult for our Local Authorities.


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    #44
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    I mean that it would illegal for him for vote. Not that it would be impossible.

    Both West Dublin and Kildare have a large foreign national population. Indeed, other foreign nationals residing in different areas have stated that they too, have been sent polling cards. If they do take the opportunity to vote, it could influence the outcome of the referendum. An absolute scandal.


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    #45
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    PaulieD wrote: »
    Both West Dublin and Kildare have a large foreign national population. Indeed, other foreign nationals residing in different areas have stated that they too, have been sent polling cards. If they do take the opportunity to vote, it could influence the outcome of the referendum. An absolute scandal.

    Just because they have recieved polling cards does not mean that they are automatically entitled to vote, the polling card is not a 'voting ticket'.

    Many foreign nationals are entitled to vote in local elections but not for referenda. What appears to have happened in this case is that these people were mistakenly sent a polling card. But when they go to recieve their ballot paper, the polling clerk will see that they have a D, E or L beside their name in which case they will be told that they cannot vote.

    The situation with the German citizen who posted in this thread is different, in that case they are mistakenly marked down as an Irish citizen on the electoral register and that is not what the article is referring to.


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    #46
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    PaulieD wrote: »
    Both West Dublin and Kildare have a large foreign national population. Indeed, other foreign nationals residing in different areas have stated that they too, have been sent polling cards. If they do take the opportunity to vote, it could influence the outcome of the referendum. An absolute scandal.

    Once more.

    A polling card is not a right to vote. It does not give anyone the right to vote.

    Here is exactly what will happen if the poll clerks are even 1/4 awake.

    "Hi,"

    *hands over polling card*

    *clerks checkes register to mark off name*
    *notices there is a letter beside their name* ( It is very very hard to miss)

    "Oh i'm sorry, you seem to have been issued this in error. Only Irish citizens are allowed vote"

    Then depending on how reasonable the person is willing to be it will either be

    "Oh, ok." and goes away.

    Or

    "What? I should be allowed vote.. this is a conspiracy... blah blah"
    To which a further reasoned arguement will be made reenforcing the point.

    If this fails and they get stroppy then they can be removed from the station.

    Look at the breakdown of the figures on the last referednum

    http://electionsireland.org/results/referendum/refresult.cfm?ref=2008R

    Kildare North has one of the highest yes votes last time..If i wanted to rig a constitency wouldnt it make more sense to target somewhere with a high no vote? Hell dublin west was marginal...


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    #47
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    PaulieD wrote: »
    Both West Dublin and Kildare have a large foreign national population. Indeed, other foreign nationals residing in different areas have stated that they too, have been sent polling cards. If they do take the opportunity to vote...
    They won’t be able to vote because they’ll be turned away at the polling office. My wife is British and she was sent a polling card in error prior to the last presidential election. Upon our arrival at the polling station, she was of course informed that she was not on the relevant register and consequently, could not vote. A polling card is not a permission slip.

    You’re making a mountain out of a mole hill here.


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    #48
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    djpbarry wrote: »
    They won’t be able to vote because they’ll be turned away at the polling office. My wife is British and she was sent a polling card in error prior to the last presidential election. Upon our arrival at the polling station, she was of course informed that she was not on the relevant register and consequently, could not vote. A polling card is not a permission slip.

    You’re making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

    If your wife is British, cant see vote in presidential elections? They can vote on everything else.


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    #49
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    PaulieD wrote: »
    If your wife is British, cant see vote in presidential elections? They can vote on everything else.

    British people can vote in Local, Euros and Dail elections. Not presidential elections or referenda.


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    #50
    procure11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭procure11


    PaulieD wrote: »
    Read the thread, Procure. Do not just take my word for it, there are posters clearly stating, that they are not Irish citizens, yet they have been issued with polling cards.

    Make of that what you will.

    Paulie I apologise for been a bit obnoxious earlier.

    My point is there is virtually no national electoral system that is faultless,these anomalies would always come to light around polling period or mostly after but the exposition would afford these local agencies to continously improve( but you and I know that they can never attain perfection).

    My assertions are :

    1.Most likely these folks would not be able to vote anyway i.e they would most probably be required to produce an Irish Id(drivers licence/passport etc) to cast their vote.

    2.If some of them are successful in voting ,it would still form a negligible part of the total vote ( but like eurocrat mentioned that is quite debatable..because it could still be decided by a few votes...which I doubt).

    In a nutshell I dont think the errors you pointed out would affect the outcome on friday...but it is still very very valid point for future elections.


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    #51
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    procure11 wrote: »
    Paulie I apologise for been a bit obnoxious earlier.

    I apologise too. Somethings the debate can get overly heated. :)

    I will leave this thread be for now, but come voting day, I will be keeping my eyes peeled. If there is anything dodgy going down, I will keep you lot informed.


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    #52
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    I do see the point of this thread and yes, we are relying on voter honesty to an extent and checks at the booth.

    This was the same the last time, so I can't see it being a big difference this time.

    You could argue it will affect the vote this time, I could argue it affected it last time.

    On the links you provided PaulieD, i'd say it is Shinners! :rolleyes:

    Any dead people vote?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #53
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    K-9 wrote: »
    I'd say you do a bit of Shinner bashing yourself, considering your views on immigration. Even put a smiley in there.

    I dont bash anyone for their political beliefs, no matter what their views.


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    #54
    ghost_ie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ghost_ie


    procure11 wrote: »
    I understand your point but are you honestly saying that because some (lets say???) 10000 ineligible people vote on Oct 2nd..it would somehow magically decide the outcome.Voting is very much like statistics where there is room for error margin.

    I believe that whatever the outcome on friday...folks should accept it and move on.There is so much more at stake than the lisbon treaty!

    I agree with you on accepting the outcome of Friday's election, but given the reaction to the Lisbon 1, if we vote no again the I doubt if the yes side will let it drop.

    My point really is that not only in this referendum but in previous (and probably future) referendums (referenda?) and elections the electoral registers have been a mess, with some people having more than one vote because local authorities failed to remove people who were no longer at previous addresses. We were supposed to have cleared this up a couple of years ago, but the system is still a mess.


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    #55
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    PaulieD wrote: »
    Jesus, any old excuse for a bit of Shinner bashing. It is quite easy to find out who was the guilty party and it wasnt a chuckie.



    *hint hint, local landlord and employer.

    Anyway, seeing as you ignored my serious points, you accept this type of thing happened in the last Referendum?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #56
    Red Sleeping Beauty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭Red Sleeping Beauty


    Agent J wrote: »
    For the record, i'll be manning a station on friday in Kildare north so this is going to make my life interesting.

    Cool, how do you get that job ?
    Agent J wrote: »
    "Oh i'm sorry, you seem to have been issued this in error. Only Irish citizens are allowed vote"

    Just out of curiosity, if that person could prove that they're an Irish citizen but weren't down on your registered list of voters, is there someone there that can make a decision to let them vote ?


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    #57
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    Alan Rouge wrote: »
    Cool, how do you get that job ?

    It's done through the local courthouse or wherever the office of the returning officer is based. Their name will be on a poster in the polling station. So a phone call or letter to that office a few months before an election is probably the best bet. It does help to know somebody working there as it is usually hard to get a place. In my local polling station it's mostly teachers.
    Alan Rouge wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, if that person could prove that they're an Irish citizen but weren't down on your registered list of voters, is there someone there that can make a decision to let them vote ?

    I believe not (but may be open to correction). While I was working at the last election there was guy who was not on the (suplemental) register but his wife was and he had to be turned away even though he had his passport and a proof of address. If you're not on it, no vote.


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    #58
    cligereen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭cligereen


    Dinner wrote: »
    Just because they have recieved polling cards does not mean that they are automatically entitled to vote, the polling card is not a 'voting ticket'.

    Many foreign nationals are entitled to vote in local elections but not for referenda. What appears to have happened in this case is that these people were mistakenly sent a polling card. But when they go to recieve their ballot paper, the polling clerk will see that they have a D, E or L beside their name in which case they will be told that they cannot vote.

    The situation with the German citizen who posted in this thread is different, in that case they are mistakenly marked down as an Irish citizen on the electoral register and that is not what the article is referring to.

    I checked the register online and although I'm not Irish, they have me down as being Irish with a 'P' beside my name. Therefore I could vote.


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    #59
    ArseBurger
    Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭ArseBurger


    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    I'm afraid I do not share your apathy towards electoral fraud. I see it as a very serious offense.

    Slightly tangential, do you consider it electoral fraud for a polling officer to refuse someone their vote because they don't have ID?

    Because you don't have to have ID to vote. Or a polling card for that matter....


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    #60
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    PaulieD wrote: »
    Shoulda, woulda, coulda
    No, just could have sorted it out instead of sitting on your hands harumphing.


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    #61
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    ArseBurger wrote: »
    Slightly tangential, do you consider it electoral fraud for a polling officer to refuse someone their vote because they don't have ID?

    Because you don't have to have ID to vote. Or a polling card for that matter....


    You have to satisfy the polling officer as to your identification. Most polling booths are close by to a person home. It should not be that hard to pop home and get a passport if required.

    Some I would imagine there is nothing illegal about a polling officer refusing a person a vote provided their grounds for refusal were legitimate. If the person turned up with all relevant ID and the officer still refused them, than yes I think that polling officer has committed an electoral offences (not fraud though as they are not impersonating anyone)


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