Thousands of Non-Irish sent polling cards.

PaulieD

Thousands of non-Irish nationals in Co. Kildare who are not entitled to vote in the Lisbon referendum have inadvertently received polling cards to do so.

It is understood the county's local election data base was used for the distribution of polling cards which resulted in the blunder.

The error could cause mayhem at polling stations on Friday unless steps are taken to undo the damage

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/thousands-of-nonirish-residents-sent-polling-cards-427818.html#ixzz0SQyp5TRx

I can hardly believe that it was an accident. It has also happened in parts of West Dublin. Only a small number of EU citizens have received Irish citizenship, as there is no need for them to do so, so it will be very apparent on Friday if large numbers turn up to vote, whether or not a thorough investigation was carried out.

Also, me and the missus have yet to receive our polling cards, yet non nationals, who are not entitled to vote, but living in the same area have. Something stinks.

Dinner

Excellent, so thats what I have to look forward to on Friday.

For the local/euro elections there was a letter beside some peoples names to indicate what elections they were eligible to vote in so all this will probably mean is that any non-nationals who go to vote will have wasted a trip.

As for you, if you know you're on the register then there isn't really a problem just bring ID. The electoral register has always been a bit of a mess.

Boskowski

Ye, in my case this is becoming actually a bit of a joke at this stage.
Received one the last time, but didn't think much of it. Then I was called for jury duty so I started thinking there's something wrong with my record on the electoral register. So I actually did something about it, because I had to get off that jury duty. Didn't want to blow a case or something - just in case.
So they made me go to the local civic office where they took a photocopy of my passport and made me sign a note and all the while they were on the phone to the girl in the register.
Guess what was in the post on Friday. Fvck it, I gonna go 'No' voting again so...

PaulieD

Dinner wrote: »

Excellent, so thats what I have to look forward to on Friday.

For the local/euro elections there was a letter beside some peoples names to indicate what elections they were eligible to vote in so all this will probably mean is that any non-nationals who go to vote will have wasted a trip.

As for you, if you know you're on the register then there isn't really a problem just bring ID. The electoral register has always been a bit of a mess.

If such an error can be made with polling cards then how can we be assured a similar error hasn't occurred on the register itself? I have never been asked for ID before, I just flashed the polling card.

As I said, this stinks.:mad:

PaulieD

realcam wrote: »

Ye, in my case this is becoming actually a bit of a joke at this stage.
Received one the last time, but didn't think much of it. Then I was called for jury duty so I started thinking there's something wrong with my record on the electoral register. So I actually did something about it, because I had to get off that jury duty. Didn't want to blow a case or something - just in case.
So they made me go to the local civic office where they took a photocopy of my passport and made me sign a note and all the while they were on the phone to the girl in the register.
Guess what was in the post on Friday. Fvck it, I gonna go 'No' voting again so...

Are you a British or Irish citizen?

Boskowski

PaulieD wrote: »

Are you a British or Irish citizen?

Nope, Alemannia

Edit: Thats supposed to mean German

Dinner

PaulieD wrote: »

If such an error can be made with polling cards then how can we be assured a similar error hasn't occurred on the register itself? I have never been asked for ID before, I just flashed the polling card.

As I said, this stinks.:mad:

Just make sure that you're still on it - http://www.checktheregister.ie/

It's probably just an admin error where people who are on the electoral register but are only eligible to vote in local elections were mistakenly posted out polling cards. I got my polling card so there hasn't been a complete mess up.

Boskowski

Dinner wrote: »

Just make sure that you're still on it - http://www.checktheregister.ie/

Just checked this. Still a 'P'.

OldJay

PaulieD wrote: »

Also, me and the missus have yet to receive our polling cards, yet non nationals, who are not entitled to vote, but living in the same area have. Something stinks.

You could have sorted that out at least three weeks ago when the polling cards were due to be sent out.

PaulieD

Justind wrote: »

You could have sorted that out at least three weeks ago when the polling cards were due to be sent out.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. I am assured I will have my polling card by Wednesday, time will tell. In the summer, I received my polling card two weeks in advance.

Agent J

1) Polling cards are for informational purposes only. They do not, and i repeat do NOT give anyone a right to vote.

2)You do not need a polling card to vote. Bring ID with you and you will be fine.

3)This is not a conspiracy, it looks like some genuis must have hit a button that thought it was a local election and not a referednum so everyone who is a British,European and Other got a sent a polling card. This means that when they show up the polling staff will see by the letter beside their name on the resgister they cannot vote. Case of Hanlon's razor applies here.

4)This is not linked to the register being a mess. They are 2 seperate unrelated issues

PaulieD

Agent J wrote: »

1) Polling cards are for informational purposes only. They do not, and i repeat do NOT give anyone a right to vote.

True. But how many times have you been asked to provide both ID and your polling card, before voting? Indeed, one poster on here, who is a German citizen, has stated that he voted in the last referendum.

Agent J wrote: »

1)2)You do not need a polling card to vote. Bring ID with you and you will be fine.

True.

Agent J wrote: »

1)3)This is not a conspiracy, it looks like some genuis must have hit a button that thought it was a local election and not a referednum so everyone who is a British,European and Other got a sent a polling card. This means that when they show up the polling staff will see by the letter beside their name on the resgister they cannot vote. Case of Hanlon's razor applies here.

In two separate electoral areas? Cmon.

Also, how many times have you been asked for id when exercising your vote? I have always provided my polling card, I have never been asked to provide identification.

Agent J wrote: »

1)4)This is not linked to the register being a mess. They are 2 seperate unrelated issues

They both stem from the same problem.

K-9

The Govt. must be p*ssed of seeing as 95% of Europeans would vote No.

PaulieD

K-9 wrote: »

The Govt. must be p*ssed of seeing as 95% of Europeans would vote No.

In their own country.

Immigrants are a different kettle of fish, in the words of De Bert, "they wouldnt want to upset the apple tart".

Agent J

I've worked as poll clerk on several elections. I know the procedure backwards at this point.

True. But how many times have you been asked to provide both ID and your polling card, before voting? Indeed, one poster on here, who is a German citizen, has stated that he voted in the last referendum.

Anedoctal evidence. If they claimed to be Irish while registering then they should be done for it. If it was a case of the poll clerk not being awake enough to spot the obvious letter beside their name then they should be fired.

A few times actually. It is not mandatory to check ID on all people btw. The polling card gives us something to check on the register to make sure they are able to vote. At random or if we have any doubt whatsoever then we can ask for ID. A lot of people are obliging and hand over ID with their polling card anyway.

In two separate electoral areas? Cmon.

Yeah, Dublin west and Kildare North. Both Areas right beside each other, id love to know the speficis if it was the same contractor and this should be investigated but its irrelevant for the sake of the referednum anyway as i have already said because what will happen is they will just get turned away as soon as it shows on the register they are not Irish.

For the record, i'll be manning a station on friday in Kildare north so this is going to make my life interesting.

They both stem from the same problem.

No, They dont.

The register needs an overall. I do not dispute this. But what has happened here as i have already said is that some one must have acted like it was a local election and hit print or whatever the hell they do for it.

The register could be perfect and this issue would still have arisen because the cards have been sent out as if it was a Local election and not a referedum.

sceptre

PaulieD wrote: »

True. But how many times have you been asked to provide both ID and your polling card, before voting?

Twice in my case, though not in recent years. I tend to take the advice on the polling card and bring ID with me. The odd time when I've not been sent a polling card I assume the advice hasn't changed.

Then again, personation's probably big in Limerick. I'm quite disappointed when they don't ask for ID. Once or twice I haven't been asked for either, which is extremely disappointing.

Euro_Kraut

realcam wrote: »

Ye, in my case this is becoming actually a bit of a joke at this stage.
Received one the last time, but didn't think much of it. Then I was called for jury duty so I started thinking there's something wrong with my record on the electoral register. So I actually did something about it, because I had to get off that jury duty. Didn't want to blow a case or something - just in case.
So they made me go to the local civic office where they took a photocopy of my passport and made me sign a note and all the while they were on the phone to the girl in the register.
Guess what was in the post on Friday. Fvck it, I gonna go 'No' voting again so...

Did you vote in the last referendum? Do you have an Irish passport?

Boskowski

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Did you vote in the last referendum? Do you have an Irish passport?

Yes. No.

PaulieD

sceptre wrote: »

Twice in my case, though not in recent years. I tend to take the advice on the polling card and bring ID with me. The odd time when I've not been sent a polling card I assume the advice hasn't changed.

Then again, personation's probably big in Limerick. I'm quite disappointed when they don't ask for ID. Once or twice I haven't been asked for either, which is extremely disappointing.

I can understand that, maybe they recognised your mug.

I live in one of the affected areas I mentioned in my opening post. I have never once, been asked for identification whilst voting, my polling card always sufficed. Only time will tell if this "mistake" has been rectified or not, on voting day.

Euro_Kraut

realcam wrote: »

Yes. No.

You committed electoral fraud then.

PaulieD

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

You committed electoral fraud then.

We will need to build a new prison to lock up all the offenders so. This is encouraged, by certain parties. Blame those who issued the polling cards, not the illegal voters.

Remember the local election fiasco, in Longford and Monaghan?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fresh-poll-fraud-fears-as-another-full-house-is-vacant-1807405.html

Boskowski

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

You committed electoral fraud then.

Yes. Or else I didn't know and when being sent the voting card and also finding myself on the list in the local school I was under the assumption that they sure know what they're doing.

procure11

PaulieD wrote: »

Thousands of non-Irish nationals in Co. Kildare who are not entitled to vote in the Lisbon referendum have inadvertently received polling cards to do so.

It is understood the county's local election data base was used for the distribution of polling cards which resulted in the blunder.

The error could cause mayhem at polling stations on Friday unless steps are taken to undo the damage

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/thousands-of-nonirish-residents-sent-polling-cards-427818.html#ixzz0SQyp5TRx

I can hardly believe that it was an accident. It has also happened in parts of West Dublin. Only a small number of EU citizens have received Irish citizenship, as there is no need for them to do so, so it will be very apparent on Friday if large numbers turn up to vote, whether or not a thorough investigation was carried out.

Also, me and the missus have yet to receive our polling cards, yet non nationals, who are not entitled to vote, but living in the same area have. Something stinks.

I think the website you quoted is self explanatory !


Quote:
Thousands of non-Irish nationals in Co. Kildare who are not entitled to vote in the Lisbon referendum have inadvertently received polling cards to do so.

These sort of mishaps happen from time to time...typical human error..lets get over it and get to the main issue of what outcome we individuallly deisre based on our judgement and convictions.

I am Nigerian now Irish( both actually) and based on facts I am still undecided but I am slowly but surely getting there.


P.S Unless you would assume that the error was masterminded by Foreigners in Ireland

Euro_Kraut

realcam wrote: »

Yes. Or else I didn't know and when being sent the voting card and also finding myself on the list in the local school I was under the assumption that they sure know what they're doing.

Unfortunately, ignorance of the law is no excuse. The responsibility was on you to ensure you were not committing a crime. Of course other were complicit in this, but you committed the fraud by casting the vote.

Boskowski

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Unfortunately, ignorance of the law is no excuse. The responsibility was on you to ensure you were not committing a crime. Of course other were complicit in this, but you committed the fraud by casting the vote.

I think that's quite a strong vocabulary for what happened.
I reckon if I went down to the local Garda station and reported myself I'd be send to the nuthouse instead.
Also, I tried actually to rectify the error of the electoral registar. Something I'm sure not a lot of people would bother doing and yet the folks at the register can't get their act together.
My feelings of remorse are limited here tbh.

PaulieD

procure11 wrote: »

I think the website you quoted is self explanatory !


Quote:
Thousands of non-Irish nationals in Co. Kildare who are not entitled to vote in the Lisbon referendum have inadvertently received polling cards to do so.

These sort of mishaps happen from time to time...typical human error..lets get over it and get to the main issue of what outcome we individuallly deisre based on our judgement and convictions.

I am Nigerian now Irish( both actually) and based on facts I am still undecided but I am slowly but surely getting there.


P.S Unless you would assume that the error was masterminded by Foreigners in Ireland

Well they are hardly going to claim differently, now arent they? Unless, of course, they want a court case on their hands.

Cases, such as this have happened all too frequent. We have had the electoral fraud in Monaghan and Longford, involving foreign nationals, and now we have foreigners being issued with polling cards in both West Dublin and Kildare. It stinks.

You said you were residing in Ireland for three years, how did you acquire citizneship in such a brief period?

I never claimed it was the foreigners fault. Stop putting words in my mouth. You are only dying to use the race card.:rolleyes:

Euro_Kraut

realcam wrote: »

I think that's quite a strong vocabulary for what happened.
I reckon if I went down to the local Garda station and reported myself I'd be send to the nuthouse instead.
Also, I tried actually to rectify the error of the electoral register. Something I'm sure not a lot of people would bother doing and yet the folks at the register can't get their act together.
My feelings of remorse are limited here tbh.

I'm afraid I do not share your apathy towards electoral fraud. I see it as a very serious offense. Maybe that is just me. You know you did wrong. You cast a vote that you had no entitlement to do.

If you are so confident I suggest you do go and make a full admission to the Gardai. The people in the Franchise Section of the County Council also have a case to answer.

procure11

PaulieD wrote: »

Well they are hardly going to claim differently, now arent they? Unless, of course, they want a court case on their hands.

Cases, such as this have happened all too frequent. We have had the electoral fraud in Monaghan and Longford, involving foreign nationals, and now we have foreigners being issued with polling cards in both West Dublin and Kildare. It stinks.

You said you were residing in Ireland for three years, how did you acquire citizneship in such a brief period?

I never claimed it was the foreigners fault. Stop putting words in my mouth. You are only dying to use the race card.:rolleyes:

What is your business with that tbh???
If you have a problem with it ,the Immigration office is at St Stephen's green.

FYI:You get Irish citizenship after marraige to an Irish citizen for 3 years(I guess much to your disgust!!)

PaulieD

procure11 wrote: »

What is your business with that tbh???
If you have a problem with it ,the Immigration office is at St Stephen's green.

FYI:You get Irish citizenship after marraige to an Irish citizen for 3 years(I guess much to your disgust!!)

I couldnt give a damn who you married. But please, continue to play the martyr.

Boskowski

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

If you are so confident I suggest you do go and make a full admission to the Gardai.

I think I've done my bit by going to the civic office taking time of work doing so. From here on it's 'whatever' I'm afraid. Chances are I won't be voting this time anyway.

procure11

PaulieD wrote: »

I couldnt give a damn who you married. But please, continue to play the martyr.

Coming back to your question???

It would have been a honest mistake and nothing to worry about ..simply because the non-nationals are not eligible to vote anyway,so they would politely be turned back on polling day.
No cause for alarm!!!

Euro_Kraut

PaulieD wrote: »

I couldnt give a damn who you married. But please, continue to play the martyr.

He has acquired Irish citizenship in accordance with the law. He has no requirement to explain himself further to you.

PaulieD

procure11 wrote: »

Coming back to your question???

It would have been a honest mistake and nothing to worry about ..simply because the non-nationals are not eligible to vote anyway,so they would politely be turned back on polling day.
No cause for alarm!!!

Reread the thread. I have always voted by using my polling card, I have never been asked to prove I am an Irish citizen.

There most definitely is a cause for alarm. This issue is for the Irish people to decide, not the vast throngs of foreigners who live here. Mistakes, and I use the word loosely, do not happen like this by accident. Definitely not in two electoral wards. For all we know this could be the tip of the iceberg.

ghost_ie

If the Yes side win, we'll hear no more about this.
If the No side win, we'll be told we have to vote again as people who weren't to vote had been sent polling cards by mistake.

This is not the only cock-up with polling cards. I know one person - and have heard anecdotally of others - who have been sent 2 polling cards, one for their present address and the second to their parents' house although they have not lived there for several years. My friend never uses the second card, but how many people do?

cligereen

I'm not in Kildare but another county. I'm not an Irish citizen either but not only do I have a vote according to the register, I have two! Each in different polling stations (due to my townland address being written in two different ways). :rolleyes:

procure11

PaulieD wrote: »

Reread the thread. I have always voted by using my polling card, I have never been asked to prove I am an Irish citizen.

There most definitely is a cause for alarm. This issue is for the Irish people to decide, not the vast throngs of foreigners who live here. Mistakes, and I use the word loosely, do not happen like this by accident. Definitely not in two electoral wards. For all we know this could be the tip of the iceberg.

So what are you implying in a nutshell??

The Lisbon treaty vote in Ireland is going to have some element of fraud to it?

Euro_Kraut

ghost_ie wrote: »

If the Yes side win, we'll hear no more about this.
If the No side win, we'll be told we have to vote again as people who weren't to vote had been sent polling cards by mistake.

Unless they cast a vote there is no reason to dispute the outcome either way. Even if they have polling cards they cannot vote.

This is not the only cock-up with polling cards. I know one person - and have heard anecdotally of others - who have been sent 2 polling cards, one for their present address and the second to their parents' house although they have not lived there for several years. My friend never uses the second card, but how many people do?

If they vote twice they are committing electoral fraud. It is a crime that carries a prison sentence.

procure11

ghost_ie wrote: »

If the Yes side win, we'll hear no more about this.
If the No side win, we'll be told we have to vote again as people who weren't to vote had been sent polling cards by mistake.

This is not the only cock-up with polling cards. I know one person - and have heard anecdotally of others - who have been sent 2 polling cards, one for their present address and the second to their parents' house although they have not lived there for several years. My friend never uses the second card, but how many people do?

I understand your point but are you honestly saying that because some (lets say???) 10000 ineligible people vote on Oct 2nd..it would somehow magically decide the outcome.Voting is very much like statistics where there is room for error margin.

I believe that whatever the outcome on friday...folks should accept it and move on.There is so much more at stake than the lisbon treaty!

Euro_Kraut

cligereen wrote: »

I'm not in Kildare but another county. I'm not an Irish citizen either but not only do I have a vote according to the register, I have two! Each in different polling stations (due to my townland address being written in two different ways). :rolleyes:

That is terrible. It really bugs me when people in the Local Authority make mistake like this. Obviously you cannot vote. It then looks like voter turnout is a lot lower than it actually is.

The franchise sections of the County Councils has legal responsibly to ensure the register is accurate. Somebody is not doing their job properly. Our democracy is built on the basis of free and fair elections. It is crucial that no mistakes are made. I honestly believe those responsible for such mistakes such have the grace to resign their positions.

Euro_Kraut

procure11 wrote: »

I understand your point but are you honestly saying that because some (lets say???) 10000 ineligible people vote on Oct 2nd..it would somehow magically decide the outcome.Voting is very much like statistics where there is room for error margin.

The 1995 Divorce referendum was decide by less than 10,000 votes.

That was after a recount. IIRC, the first count had just over 1,000 votes of a difference.

Of course Georgre Bush Jr got elected President by about 500 votes.

PaulieD

procure11 wrote: »

So what are you implying in a nutshell??

The Lisbon treaty vote in Ireland is going to have some element of fraud to it?

Read the thread, Procure. Do not just take my word for it, there are posters clearly stating, that they are not Irish citizens, yet they have been issued with polling cards.

Make of that what you will.

PaulieD

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Obviously you cannot vote. It then looks like voter turnout is a lot lower than it actually is.

Why is it obvious that he cannot vote? There is a German citizen, on this very thread, stating that he voted in previous elections. In fact, he informed the relevant authorities of their mistake and what happens? They issue him with a polling card for this referendum.

Seriously, how difficult is it to correctly issue 2 million Irish citizens with polling cards?

Euro_Kraut

PaulieD wrote: »

Why is it obvious that he cannot vote?

I mean that it would illegal for him for vote. Not that it would be impossible.

Seriously, how difficult is it to correctly issue 2 million Irish citizens with polling cards?

It appears to very difficult for our Local Authorities.

PaulieD

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I mean that it would illegal for him for vote. Not that it would be impossible.

Both West Dublin and Kildare have a large foreign national population. Indeed, other foreign nationals residing in different areas have stated that they too, have been sent polling cards. If they do take the opportunity to vote, it could influence the outcome of the referendum. An absolute scandal.

Dinner

PaulieD wrote: »

Both West Dublin and Kildare have a large foreign national population. Indeed, other foreign nationals residing in different areas have stated that they too, have been sent polling cards. If they do take the opportunity to vote, it could influence the outcome of the referendum. An absolute scandal.

Just because they have recieved polling cards does not mean that they are automatically entitled to vote, the polling card is not a 'voting ticket'.

Many foreign nationals are entitled to vote in local elections but not for referenda. What appears to have happened in this case is that these people were mistakenly sent a polling card. But when they go to recieve their ballot paper, the polling clerk will see that they have a D, E or L beside their name in which case they will be told that they cannot vote.

The situation with the German citizen who posted in this thread is different, in that case they are mistakenly marked down as an Irish citizen on the electoral register and that is not what the article is referring to.

Agent J

PaulieD wrote: »

Both West Dublin and Kildare have a large foreign national population. Indeed, other foreign nationals residing in different areas have stated that they too, have been sent polling cards. If they do take the opportunity to vote, it could influence the outcome of the referendum. An absolute scandal.

Once more.

A polling card is not a right to vote. It does not give anyone the right to vote.

Here is exactly what will happen if the poll clerks are even 1/4 awake.

"Hi,"

*hands over polling card*

*clerks checkes register to mark off name*
*notices there is a letter beside their name* ( It is very very hard to miss)

"Oh i'm sorry, you seem to have been issued this in error. Only Irish citizens are allowed vote"

Then depending on how reasonable the person is willing to be it will either be

"Oh, ok." and goes away.

Or

"What? I should be allowed vote.. this is a conspiracy... blah blah"
To which a further reasoned arguement will be made reenforcing the point.

If this fails and they get stroppy then they can be removed from the station.

Look at the breakdown of the figures on the last referednum

http://electionsireland.org/results/referendum/refresult.cfm?ref=2008R

Kildare North has one of the highest yes votes last time..If i wanted to rig a constitency wouldnt it make more sense to target somewhere with a high no vote? Hell dublin west was marginal...

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

Both West Dublin and Kildare have a large foreign national population. Indeed, other foreign nationals residing in different areas have stated that they too, have been sent polling cards. If they do take the opportunity to vote...

They won’t be able to vote because they’ll be turned away at the polling office. My wife is British and she was sent a polling card in error prior to the last presidential election. Upon our arrival at the polling station, she was of course informed that she was not on the relevant register and consequently, could not vote. A polling card is not a permission slip.

You’re making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

PaulieD

djpbarry wrote: »

They won’t be able to vote because they’ll be turned away at the polling office. My wife is British and she was sent a polling card in error prior to the last presidential election. Upon our arrival at the polling station, she was of course informed that she was not on the relevant register and consequently, could not vote. A polling card is not a permission slip.

You’re making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

If your wife is British, cant see vote in presidential elections? They can vote on everything else.

Dinner

PaulieD wrote: »

If your wife is British, cant see vote in presidential elections? They can vote on everything else.

British people can vote in Local, Euros and Dail elections. Not presidential elections or referenda.

procure11

PaulieD wrote: »

Read the thread, Procure. Do not just take my word for it, there are posters clearly stating, that they are not Irish citizens, yet they have been issued with polling cards.

Make of that what you will.

Paulie I apologise for been a bit obnoxious earlier.

My point is there is virtually no national electoral system that is faultless,these anomalies would always come to light around polling period or mostly after but the exposition would afford these local agencies to continously improve( but you and I know that they can never attain perfection).

My assertions are :

1.Most likely these folks would not be able to vote anyway i.e they would most probably be required to produce an Irish Id(drivers licence/passport etc) to cast their vote.

2.If some of them are successful in voting ,it would still form a negligible part of the total vote ( but like eurocrat mentioned that is quite debatable..because it could still be decided by a few votes...which I doubt).

In a nutshell I dont think the errors you pointed out would affect the outcome on friday...but it is still very very valid point for future elections.

PaulieD

procure11 wrote: »

Paulie I apologise for been a bit obnoxious earlier.

I apologise too. Somethings the debate can get overly heated.

I will leave this thread be for now, but come voting day, I will be keeping my eyes peeled. If there is anything dodgy going down, I will keep you lot informed.