O'Leary admits on TV3 that Ryanairs Yes campaign is all about getting Aer Lingus

AARRRGH

FutureGuy wrote: »

If I were to vote yes, it would not because of the great campaign that the Yes side were runing, but because of the pile of sh!te that the no vote has been churning out on an almost daily basis. It's bloody pathetic. OP, post the entire quote or don't post at all.

A lot of people are going to vote no for the opposite reason.

oscarBravo

tonycascarino wrote: »

It's also interesting that there's an article in the Irish Times today whereby a large estate in O'Leary's hometown of Mullingar is visited. Only 1 person in the whole estate is going to vote Yes. Looks like even his own hometown people don't share his views on Lisbon either.

O'Leary lives outside Delvin, not in Mullingar. Raithín isn't a particularly big estate (I'd describe it as medium by Mullingar standards), and it's population isn't a representative sample of Mullingar's.

Sam Vimes

AARRRGH wrote: »

A lot of people are going to vote no for the opposite reason.

Except that the "sh!te" coming from the yes side is supported by 91% of economists, 90% of businesses and the majority of trade unions and therefore is not "sh!te". People call it sh!te for two reasons:

1. They don't want to believe that a no vote will make economic recovery more difficult, no matter how many experts tell them it will
2. They think that if they can label those on the yes side as liars it in some way justifies the actual lies on the no side

Euro_Kraut

Tony, your OP is dishonest. I think it is appalling that you would attempt to mislead people.

I hope you never harp on about corruption or morality in Irish politics. You have displayed all the characteristics of the morally bankrupt politicians that have blighted our country. Shame on you.

AARRRGH

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Except that the "sh!te" coming from the yes side is supported by 91% of economists, 90% of businesses and the majority of trade unions and therefore is not "sh!te". People call it sh!te for two reasons:

1. They don't want to believe that a no vote will make economic recovery more difficult, no matter how many experts tell them it will
2. They think that if they can label those on the yes side as liars it in some way justifies the actual lies on the no side

Come on, obviously people with an interest in business will want a yes vote. But is "best for business" the right reason to vote yes? I don't believe it is.

Long term I don't believe a Germany/France controlled Europe is best for Ireland.

Sam Vimes

AARRRGH wrote: »

Come on, obviously people with an interest in business will want a yes vote. But is "best for business" the right reason to vote yes? I don't believe it is.

It may or may not be the right reason to vote yes. Best for business means best for the economy which means best for job creation. If someone had a fundamental objection to the treaty of course it wouldn't be a reason to vote yes but if someone had no real objection or wasn't sure which way to vote it could be a factor. For someone of the "if you don't know vote no" mindset, this shows that a no vote is not necessarily the "safe" option because the majority of experts agree it will make economic recovery more difficult.

In the absence of a compelling reason to vote no, a yes vote is appropriate

AARRRGH wrote: »

Long term I don't believe a Germany/France controlled Europe is best for Ireland.

Me neither but that's not happening here.

jacool

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Tony, your OP is dishonest. I think it is appalling that you would attempt to mislead people.

I hope you never harp on about corruption or morality in Irish politics. You have displayed all the characteristics of the morally bankrupt politicians that have blighted our country. Shame on you.

Are these the same "morally bankrupt politicians" who are espousing a YES vote? Just want to check!

PopeBuckfastXVI

jacool wrote: »

Are these the same "morally bankrupt politicians" who are espousing a YES vote? Just want to check!

Some are for 'yes' some are for 'no'...

Sam Vimes

jacool wrote: »

Are these the same "morally bankrupt politicians" who are espousing a YES vote? Just want to check!

I don't understand why people get so hung up on what our government thinks of this treaty, it's not like they care what they think on any other matter. This is not their treaty, they are just one of many groups that support it. If you don't trust them to tell you about it, ask someone else. Here are a list of some groups that support the treaty:

Progressive Democrats
IBEC
Irish Farmers Association
Irish Sheep and Cattle Farmers Association
ICMSA
Alliance for Europe
Concern
Barnado's
Trocaire
Irish Congress of Trade Unions
American Chamber of Commerce
Construction Industry Federation (CIF)
Consumer Electronic Distributors Association (CEDA)
Cork Chamber of Commerce
Cork City Business Association
Dublin Chamber of Commerce
Dublin City Business Association
Fashion & Footwear Federation
Financial Services Ireland
Galway City Business Association
ICT Ireland
Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland
Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers
Irish Banking Federation
Irish Dairy Industry Association (IDIA)
Irish Exporters Association (IEA)
Irish Franchise Association
Irish Hardware & Building Materials Association
Irish Hotels Federation (IHF)
Irish Medical Devices Association (IMDA)
Irish Software Association (ISA)
Irish Tourist Industry Confederation (ITIC)
Irish Travel Agents Association (ITAA)
Limerick Chamber of Commerce
Limerick City Business Association
Network Dublin
North Dublin Chamber of Commerce
Pharmachemical Ireland
Retail Ireland
Small Firms Association (SFA)
Society of Irish Motor Industry (SIMI)
South Dublin Chamber
Telecoms and Internet Federation (TIF)
Waterford Chamber of Commerce
Concern(NGO)



Concern :eek: I wonder what's in it for those devious bastards!!

Euro_Kraut

jacool wrote: »

Are these the same "morally bankrupt politicians" who are espousing a YES vote? Just want to check!

Whataboutery

SkepticOne

AARRRGH wrote: »

Come on, obviously people with an interest in business will want a yes vote. But is "best for business" the right reason to vote yes? I don't believe it is.

Long term I don't believe a Germany/France controlled Europe is best for Ireland.

I think you need to take it into account in your voting, just like you need to take into account the effect on domestic politics of a yes or no vote. I'm not sure, though, that it should be your predominant reason for voting one way or the other.

AARRRGH

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Me neither but that's not happening here.

History would tell us it is what's happening.

I know we like to believe we live in enlightened times, but if you pick up any history book you will see both those countries have been trying to take over Europe for centuries.

I don't see why now should be any different. And the way Europe is going (e.g. France/Germany having more voting power because of their large populations) it would appear nothing has changed.

smokingman

AARRRGH wrote: »

I don't see why now should be any different. And the way Europe is going (e.g. France/Germany having more voting power because of their large populations) it would appear nothing has changed.

To vote something in post Lisbon, it would need 65% of the population of Europe AND ALSO at least 8 countries agreeing with it...that last bit is always left out by the no side...:rolleyes:

K-9

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I don't understand why people get so hung up on what our government thinks of this treaty, it's not like they care what they think on any other matter. This is not their treaty, they are just one of many groups that support it. If you don't trust them to tell you about it, ask someone else. Here are a list of some groups that support the treaty:

Progressive Democrats
IBEC
Irish Farmers Association
Irish Sheep and Cattle Farmers Association
ICMSA
Alliance for Europe
Concern
Barnado's
Trocaire
Irish Congress of Trade Unions
American Chamber of Commerce
Construction Industry Federation (CIF)
Consumer Electronic Distributors Association (CEDA)
Cork Chamber of Commerce
Cork City Business Association
Dublin Chamber of Commerce
Dublin City Business Association
Fashion & Footwear Federation
Financial Services Ireland
Galway City Business Association
ICT Ireland
Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland
Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers
Irish Banking Federation
Irish Dairy Industry Association (IDIA)
Irish Exporters Association (IEA)
Irish Franchise Association
Irish Hardware & Building Materials Association
Irish Hotels Federation (IHF)
Irish Medical Devices Association (IMDA)
Irish Software Association (ISA)
Irish Tourist Industry Confederation (ITIC)
Irish Travel Agents Association (ITAA)
Limerick Chamber of Commerce
Limerick City Business Association
Network Dublin
North Dublin Chamber of Commerce
Pharmachemical Ireland
Retail Ireland
Small Firms Association (SFA)
Society of Irish Motor Industry (SIMI)
South Dublin Chamber
Telecoms and Internet Federation (TIF)
Waterford Chamber of Commerce
Concern(NGO)



Concern :eek: I wonder what's in it for those devious bastards!!

Cheers, I was actually looking for a list. I'm sure we could add more.

SIPTU,
ICTU,
INO

It's amazing that so many groups that often are polar opposites on issues, support Lisbon.

AARRRGH

smokingman wrote: »

To vote something in post Lisbon, it would need 65% of the population of Europe AND ALSO at least 8 countries agreeing with it...that last bit is always left out by the no side...:rolleyes:

So Ireland could vote against something every single time and still lose?

Wow, that sounds like a great deal for Ireland...

PopeBuckfastXVI

smokingman wrote: »

To vote something in post Lisbon, it would need 65% of the population of Europe AND ALSO at least 8 countries agreeing with it...that last bit is always left out by the no side...:rolleyes:

Actually it would require a minimum of 15 countries, were there no further expansion (more countries would be required if it expanded).

PopeBuckfastXVI

AARRRGH wrote: »

So Ireland could vote against something every single time and still lose?

Wow, that sounds like a great deal for Ireland...

Also, Ireland could vote for something every single time and win even if some countries objected.

Now that does sound like a good deal for Ireland...

AARRRGH

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Also, Ireland could vote for something every single time and win even if some countries objected.

Now that does sound like a good deal for Ireland...

I think it is likely the larger countries won't want the same things as Ireland.

For example, low corporation tax.

Sam Vimes

AARRRGH wrote: »

History would tell us it is what's happening.

I know we like to believe we live in enlightened times, but if you pick up any history book you will see both those countries have been trying to take over Europe for centuries.

I don't see why now should be any different.

History would tell us that a union like this would have collapsed long ago as the League of Nations did.

AARRRGH wrote: »

And the way Europe is going (e.g. France/Germany having more voting power because of their large populations) it would appear nothing has changed.

Them having a higher voting weight for the population requirement because of their population is democracy. There is also the country requirement which gives us the same voting weight as them and requires 15 countries to agree. There is also the clause that if only the three biggest countries are opposed to a change they can't block it. Have a look at this. It shows that if the big countries wanted to force their will on the smaller ones it would take 15 of them (the bare minimum for QMV), those being Germany, the UK, France, Spain, Poland, Italy, Romania, The Netherlands, Greece, Portugal, Belgium, Czech Republic, Hungary, Sweden and Austria, and they would represent 88.6% of the population of the EU.

Also take a look at this post from Scofflaw which shows that our composite voting weight increases slightly under Lisbon:

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's been pointed out repeatedly that this is false. We have two voting weights under Lisbon - population (0.8%) and 1 state vote (3.7%). Under Nice, we have three voting weights - population (0.8%), 1 state vote (3.7%), and negotiated votes (7/349 = 2%). The comparison being made by the No campaigns is of the negotiated vote to the population vote - but one is not being replaced by the other. Our composite voting weight under Nice is 2.167% (0.8+2+3.7/3), our composite voting weight under Lisbon is 2.25% (0.8+3.7/2).

If France and Germany are trying to dominate the EU, they're not doing a very good job of it

K-9

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think it is likely the larger countries won't want the same things as Ireland.

For example, low corporation tax.

That is why they'll need the support of other small countries. You know, the ones that make up the majority of the EU.

Sam Vimes

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think it is likely the larger countries won't want the same things as Ireland.

For example, low corporation tax.

They have no say on it

AARRRGH

K-9 wrote: »

That is why they'll need the support of other small countries. You know, the ones that make up the majority of the EU.

The smaller countries don't make up the majority of the EU.

France, Germany, Spain, Italy and the UK make up about 65% of the EU's population.

Dinner

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think it is likely the larger countries won't want the same things as Ireland.

For example, low corporation tax.

And corporation tax still isn't something the EU can change.

AARRRGH

Sam Vimes wrote: »

They have no say on it

Dinner wrote:

And corporation tax still isn't something the EU can change.

At the moment.

Are you really so naive that you don't think things will be different in 10 or 20 years?

Sam Vimes

AARRRGH wrote: »

At the moment.

Are you really so naive that you don't think things will be different in 10 or 20 years?

You have to think long term.

In 10 or 20 years time we will still have a veto on the matter unless we choose to give it up in a future treaty. The Lisbon treaty does not require us to give it up and so this is not a reason to vote no to it

Dinner

AARRRGH wrote: »

At the moment.

Are you really so naive that you don't think things will be different in 10 or 20 years?

So how exactly will the EU take control of Direct Taxation? Apart from our government allowing it of course.

heyjude

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Except that the "sh!te" coming from the yes side is supported by 91% of economists,

Would they be the same economists that failed to see the property crash, the US sub-prime crisis or the massive global downturn coming ? If so, then their credibility would seem to be at an all time low and their advice on the future, based on their recent forecasts, open to question.

AARRRGH

Dinner wrote: »

So how exactly will the EU take control of Direct Taxation? Apart from our government allowing it of course.

Article 48 of the Lisbon treaty says the treaty can change after we've voted it in: http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/135-article-48.html

Sam Vimes

AARRRGH wrote: »

Long term I don't believe a Germany/France controlled Europe is best for Ireland.

AARRRGH wrote: »

History would tell us it is what's happening.

I know we like to believe we live in enlightened times, but if you pick up any history book you will see both those countries have been trying to take over Europe for centuries.

I don't see why now should be any different. And the way Europe is going (e.g. France/Germany having more voting power because of their large populations) it would appear nothing has changed.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think it is likely the larger countries won't want the same things as Ireland.

For example, low corporation tax.

AARRRGH wrote: »

At the moment.

Are you really so naive that you don't think things will be different in 10 or 20 years?

On a separate note, it's posts like that that will damage Ireland's economic prospects in the future. People keep saying that we won't be kicked out of the EU if we vote no etc but those posts show a fundamental mistrust of the EU, you pretty much think that it's an attempt by France and Germany to achieve domination through stealth and trickery. If businesses get the idea that your view is widespread in Ireland it wouldn't be much of a stretch to believe that Ireland might start distancing itself from the EU; not that we'll be kicked out but that we'll start to cut back on the relationship ourselves. And to a business that wants to locate in an EU country for all the advantages that brings, they have the choice of cheaper countries who are not so euro sceptic.

Dinner

AARRRGH wrote: »

Article 48 of the Lisbon treaty says the treaty can change after we've voted it in: http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/135-article-48.html

Article 48 explicitly states that any proposed changes must be ratified according to each country's constitutional requirements.

They can't 'back door' it.