Why are intelligent, university-educated, middle class Irish people not in revolt?

thebman

dvpower wrote: »

If we have an election before Christmas, we will vote for the parties that promise not to make any cuts or raise taxes (or more accurately, we will vote for the parties that promise to make cuts on others, and raise taxes on others).

Very few people will tell politicians on the doorsteps to cause us pain to balance the books.

lol very few politicians will bring that up too I think you'll find.

Its up to the people in an election, if we do get one and still vote for the status quo then we will be 100% be getting what we deserve.

dvpower

thebman wrote: »

Its up to the people in an election, if we do get one and still vote for the status quo then we will be 100% be getting what we deserve.

That's what we have now!. The last election was only a couple of years ago and we voted for FF in numbers.

Mal-Adjusted

Deleted User wrote: »

For a second I thought you knew where I lived!



And there are plenty that could watch FF bring peace to the North and perceived prosperity and maximum employment, but would never have voted for them because they despised them since the womb. Know plenty of fellas like this. The sort who think voting against FF every time makes them more intelligent.

Not sure about the reference to 'modern states'. Lots of 'modern states' have political parties with members. The US, Germany, France...in fact I'm trying to think of the 'modern state' where every representative runs as an individual and not part of a party machine and I'm failing. Name a 'modern state' please.

that's a good point. blindly voting against a party is just as bad as blindly voting for one.

i used the term rather generally, didn't I? i guess i should have said "modern world"

DublinWriter

I think people are already in revolt considering that someone tried to petrol-bomb the Department of Finance last night.

I thought to myself that our best and greatest must be preparing for an emergency getaway when I watched the Government Jet fly over the Phoenix Park at lunchtime today at an altitude I'd best describe as a 'strafing run'.

Sir Oxman

thebman wrote: »

Considering we should be able to get rid of corruption using our political process I don't see the point. We will most likely have an election before Christmas IMHO or after the next budget so we can vote for a party at that point and make sure cleaning up the system is on their agenda when they come to our doorsteps looking for our vote.

That's just it though - the entire system is geared towards corruption exacerbated by the huge increase in quangos established by this crowd of gangsters in the main to dole out patronage to the clique. And of course, the clientelism ingrained in a substantial number of the electorate.

We have no leaders on any side of the House - not a peep from one of them to lead the nation, take the lead and show the rest of us that they too are prepared to take cuts in their income, instead we have prevarication, silence and dodging the issue and a miniscule amount of representatives who have agreed to reduce their grab from the state coffers, not one has stood up and produced receipts of their own volition in relation to expenses for instance, to lead and show the way.

None of them, in my eyes, would reform from top to bottom - it's too cosy, it's too comfortable, there's too much gravy in it for them to do that.

Some people say that we shouldn't get too het up and focused on these things, that it's a small drop in the ocean (representatives income/pensions/expenses) and body politic reform, but I say it's not - it's the absolute crux of what is wrong with the system in this country and nothing more than a major social upheaval is needed because the people 'representing' us
will not under any circumstances, change it.

Overheal

DublinWriter wrote: »

I think people are already in revolt considering that someone tried to petrol-bomb the Department of Finance last night.

I thought to myself that our best and greatest must be preparing for an emergency getaway when I watched the Government Jet fly over the Phoenix Park at lunchtime today at an altitude I'd best describe as a 'strafing run'.

Yep. How long is it until the country becomes unstable anyway? I think I'd rather organize protest rather than let all this building resentment toward the government go unchecked. Im sure your bomberman would have chosen the picket line before the pipe bomb - if only it was easier to find the picket line than it was to find the pipebomb. Sad.

Rebelheart

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

there's also the thick as sh1te bogger attitude of "that other crowd could be ten times worse!"

Just for the historical record:

Patrick Bartholomew Ahern
Liam Aloysius Lawlor
Raphael Patrick Burke
Charles James Haughey

were all elected, and consistently re-elected, in Dublin constituencies. As a poster above said it is sheer prejudice to contend that the Dublin electorate have some sort of morally superior principles at election time. As certain posters here affirm, they certainly have delusions of moral superiority over the barbarians out in the countryside. For the sake of historical tradition, let's politely call it the Pale mentality.

Rebelheart

asdasd wrote: »

To reiterate. Stop blaming FF. If You bought a house it is your fault. Not only did you cause your own ruin, you were responsible for the bust.

You are fundamentally misguided. I never bought a house during the boom and remained steadfastly "uncool" by living at home with the auld pair. I have stayed here in the hope that property prices will fall to a sane level and I can then by my home.


However, now, Fianna Fáil-The Republican Party is interferring in the erstwhile untouchable "free market" and propping up builders, banks and the entire property market (including all the "ordinary" arseholes who tried to keep up with the Joneses)- in fact, it has mortgaged Irish wealth for some time to come - through gambling on the hope that the property market will return to its former levels of 2006 and the like. In order to get taxpayers money back from the property industry it is now shaping economic policy, and thus the wealth of the taxpayers of Ireland, to advance another 'boom' in house prices.

In a nutshell: this government is using my taxes to subvent the property industry, keep property prices unreleastically high and promote the next boom. In the process of this socialism - corporate socialism - I am being further excluded from buying a home at a reasonable price. It makes me physically sick. How dare you pontificate that people like me are to blame for my current situation. I'm clearly smarter than the poor people who were duped at the top of the market, but the gombeen men have our collective taxes and are going to outsmart me with these policies, policies designed to bail out the gamblers and gangsters who are now in trouble yet who claim to be respectable members of Irish society while financially raping those of us who didn't get carried away. I include large swathes of middle class "respectable" Irish families in this, by the way.

All these people who took those risks will be looked after one way or another by the economic policy of pumping up house prices once again. People like me, people who did not cave into the social pressure to pay funny money prices for a home, will lose entirely because of this political intervention in the market.

Fianna Fáil, most particularly under the policiies of Patrick Bartholomew Ahern, have deeply shamed noble concepts like patriotism, republicanism and social justice.

PS: Not for a minute do I believe Fine Gael and Labour would be any better; both parties are opposed to a radical overhaul of their own expenses and abolition of the Seanad. They have no moral authority while they continue to look after their own political class so well.

scaredoflisbon

Re; rebelheart post.

think there are similarities with lisbon treaty and dublin mentality v the rest of the country.
life is grand in Cosyland ie dublin. you have it all on your doorstep, best of everything cos you have the biggest population. right? best schools hospitals, etc etc.
howwould you feel if you had to travel 40 miles on crap roads to visit a relative in hospital or 75 miles for cancer treatment?
living way beyond the pale meself these are my choices, just hope i get my heart attack between 9 and 5 cos i'll need to travel 40 miles to nearest A&E otherwise. but then if you live outside Dublin you have to make sacrifices if you want the best....(your centre of excellence is not built yet oops sorry) think that was a quote from one of those D4 intellectuals. worst he'll have to do is brave the dublin traffic to get to the Northside or the southside or whatever. poor baby.
oh and if ye live in Donegal then you re really f----d.

thebman

dvpower wrote: »

That's what we have now!. The last election was only a couple of years ago and we voted for FF in numbers.

Yeah but people still hadn't woken up to the extent of the problems back then. Now its clear as day.

Mal-Adjusted

Rebelheart wrote: »

Just for the historical record:

Patrick Bartholomew Ahern
Liam Aloysius Lawlor
Raphael Patrick Burke
Charles James Haughey

were all elected, and consistently re-elected, in Dublin constituencies. As a poster above said it is sheer prejudice to contend that the Dublin electorate have some sort of morally superior principles at election time. As certain posters here affirm, they certainly have delusions of moral superiority over the barbarians out in the countryside. For the sake of historical tradition, let's politely call it the Pale mentality.

nobody is saying that they do. (TBF, very few dubliners think that they're better than the rest of us) but that's a side-issue at best.

FTA69

fcussen wrote: »

More or less every major revolution and social upheaval in modern history in every nation across the world (incl. Ireland) has been led by people from the more educated strata of society.

I agree with the second sentence tho; when I hear paranoid right-wingers talking about impressionable students having their heads filled with militant propaganda by leftie professors, I have a really hard time finding the people they're referring to in real life.

Well, while the leadership of past movements may have included or even been dominated by middle-class people, Irish revolutionary movements were usually sustained by the lower classes i.e small farmers, rural labourers and aspects of the urban working class. Even Wolfe Tone constantly referred to the "men of no property". Around the world various left-wing insurgencies i.e Cuba, Vietnam etc were often led by people of middle-class origin but the vast bulk of the movement were usually working class or peasantry.

FTA69

optocynic wrote: »

Huh?.. OK! You did appear to be leaping to their defence in another thread. regarding Cork...

No I didn't. Not once did I say or even insinuate that I supported the Real IRA. As I said, talking through your hole.

optocynic

FTA69 wrote: »

No I didn't. Not once did I say or even insinuate that I supported the Real IRA. As I said, talking through your hole.

You supported their promise to 'kill known dealers' in Cork... and even mentioned to possible growth in their numbers that would come from such actions.

Let me ask you this? Are you a Republican?

MG

Are you implying that non-intelligent, non-university educated, non-middle class people are revolting?;)

FTA69

optocynic wrote: »

You supported their promise to 'kill known dealers' in Cork... and even mentioned to possible growth in their numbers that would come from such actions.

No I didn't "support" their promise at all, you're talking absolute and utter nonsense. If you can show me the relevant posts where I said I supported the Real IRA or anything they do then please do, if not then stop talking complete crap.

Dannyboy83

MG wrote: »

Are you implying that non-intelligent, non-university educated, non-middle class people are revolting?;)

hmmmmm...........
Non intelligent - tick
non-middle class - tick
non-educated - tick

If you're referring to Fianna Fail members, then yes, they are fcuking revolting.

Amhran Nua

Rebelheart wrote: »

PS: Not for a minute do I believe Fine Gael and Labour would be any better; both parties are opposed to a radical overhaul of their own expenses and abolition of the Seanad. They have no moral authority while they continue to look after their own political class so well.

We're setting something up to challenge the gombeens, Rebelheart (see sig) and you're more than welcome to join if you haven't already.

Idbatterim

completely agree with the opposition being as poor as FF! regardless of who are in power, cuts are going to have to be made, and drastic ones! what do some people think? get FF out and it will be a bed of roses? I think a large part of the problem in this country is that about 90% of the populace are morons when it comes to politics and knowing how things run! Christ its a depressing place! all i want is vengance! if the greens dont reject the nama, they better never come knocking on my door looking for a vote!

IRLConor

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think a large part of the problem in this country is that about 90% of the populace are morons when it comes to politics and knowing how things run!

FYP.

Seriously though, I don't understand the protests against cutbacks. How do they think the books will be balanced?

Odds are that we'll need cutbacks and a rise in taxation to rectify things.

Biggins

IRLConor wrote: »

FYP.

Seriously though, I don't understand the protests against cutbacks. How do they think the books will be balanced?
Odds are that we'll need cutbacks and a rise in taxation to rectify things.

...and pay for gifts of cars!

IRLConor

Biggins wrote: »

...and pay for gifts of cars!

<snip newspaper article>

While that kind of incompetence/corruption is despicable, the money to be saved (€23k if you use the valuation in your clipping) is insignificant compared to the amount of money being wasted elsewhere (health & social welfare being the perennial money pits).

Also, I'd bet that the government isn't competent enough to persuade him to turn it in/seize the car without the operation costing more than it would save.

Yes, high-level corruption must be tackled, but it must be dealt with because it is wrong not because it will save money. Stamping it out will probably be a net loss to the taxpayer in money terms but it will be worth it in the long run.

Biggins

IRLConor wrote: »

While that kind of incompetence/corruption is despicable, the money to be saved (€23k if you use the valuation in your clipping) is insignificant compared to the amount of money being wasted elsewhere (health & social welfare being the perennial money pits).

Also, I'd bet that the government isn't competent enough to persuade him to turn it in/seize the car without the operation costing more than it would save.

Yes, high-level corruption must be tackled, but it must be dealt with because it is wrong not because it will save money. Stamping it out will probably be a net loss to the taxpayer in money terms but it will be worth it in the long run.

You have a VERY strong point but to use an old saying, "if you give them an inch, they will take a mile".

With constant, constant freebies and perks such as above, while still a small amount of what is much needed, the point is that if they think they can get away with this type of visible blatancy, what in reality is to stop them from doing more day by progressing day!

To use another saying "Save the pennies - and the pounds should take care of themselves!"
Clearly we have not being doing that and using the monetary save guards!
..and speaking of guards... Who indeed guards the guardians?

BroomBurner

Biggins wrote: »

You have a VERY strong point but to use an old saying, "if you give them an inch, they will take a mile".

With constant, constant freebies and perks such as above, while still a small amount of what is much needed, the point is that if they think they can get away with this type of visible blatancy, what in reality is to stop them from doing more day by progressing day!

To use another saying "Save the pennies - and the pounds should take care of themselves!"
Clearly we have not being doing that and using the monetary save guards!
..and speaking of guards... Who indeed guards the guardians?

Nobody guards the guardians. Seriously. Nobody does. I have been told that those at a certain level are their own line managers. It is an uphill battle to change, but worth changing (am trying!).

IRLConor

Biggins wrote: »

You have a VERY strong point but to use an old saying, "if you give them an inch, they will take a mile".

With constant, constant freebies and perks such as above, while still a small amount of what is much needed, the point is that if they think they can get away with this type of visible blatancy, what in reality is to stop them from doing more day by progressing day!

To use another saying "Save the pennies - and the pounds should take care of themselves!"
Clearly we have not being doing that and using the monetary save guards!
..and speaking of guards... Who indeed guards the guardians?

I agree entirely, we just need to be wary of seeing anti-corruption measures as cost-saving ones.

It would be way too easy to get stuck into politicians and quangos and get caught up in a quagmire of finger-pointing and let the public finances continue to haemorrhage money.

odoylerulez

Rebelheart wrote: »

This is long but I'm beyond caring about anybody who is offended by that insignificant fact.

---

Where are the patriots of this state, the people who should be fighting to protect our interests? By "our" I mean those of us who get that wage packet which says "PAYE" on it, followed by the removal of loads of our hard-earned money.

Brian Lenihan demands that we be "patriotic"; his aunt, Mary O'Rourke (a fact which says so much about the nepotism of this crowd), accused all of us who questioned Mr Patrick Bartholomew Ahern's finances of "treason". But who, pray tell, are the real "traitors" of Irish society in 2009?


Every day we hear a new "revelation" about how we, PAYE taxpayers in this state, are funding the extraordinarily obscene "expenses" of the Rody Molloy, Michael Fingleton, John O'Donoghue types, this after people like Patrick Neary received hundreds of thousands of euro, our money, for making the supreme cock-up as the so-called Financial Regulator (and I'm not simply talking about his arrogant Prime Time interview which precipitated his resignation).

And then we have the judges, who collectively threatened legal action if they were forced to contribute to the pension levy in the same way as other public servants. They claimed it was unconstitutional for them to be forced to pay a levy like everybody else. Nobody in political life stood up for us then, either. Nobody. The judges, self-declared honourable people, simply joined the O'Donoghue, Fingleton, Molloy types and pissed on us. Let's not try and dress that up.

With so many cases of arrant avarice, rapacity and exploitation of our (very limited) public resources, it's not surprising we forget the names never mind the sheer arrogance displayed by each and every one of these people as they fleece us.

This evening, Mr Brian Cowen - a man paid more that the President of the United States - came on RTÉ News and said that this Rody Molloy individual was *entitled* to everything which he received. This is brazen old boys network stuff giving an almighty two fingers to us all again. That this Molloy chap was given even more than he was legally entitled to - and tax free at that, a detail which gave him, in reality, hundreds of thousands of euro more - and that this was (allegedly) done without the Department of Finance officials seeking legal advice begs the question: where are the patriots of the Irish state now? They most assuredly are not among these senior civil and public servants representing our hard-earned taxes.

Meanwhile, across both Dáil Éireann and that pointless jobs-for-the-boys entity named Seanad Éireann no political party is advocating disclosure of politicians' expenses, caps on those expenses or indeed anything whatsoever that financially impedes their ability to exploit the wealth which the people of this state have created.

Fine Gael, Labour, the Green Party, Sinn Féin and Fianna Fáil are at one: "expenses" should not be revealed. One prominent Labour TD (Emmet Stagg) came out two weeks ago and said he did not support a transparent expenses system because he had to give money to each and every organisation which sought it from him in his constituency. If he did not have access to these "expenses" he could not do this and, he emphasised, he would not be re-elected. He was very honest about it.
This, therefore, is what the opposition is offering us on the issue of expenses: no change, no more openness than Fianna Fáil. Where are the patriots in Fine Gael and Labour? They are, very sadly, just as elusive.


Now, it is really just a matter of these senior public servants, be they elected or not, keeping their heads down and waiting till it blows over. Every day is the same sort of revelation of obscenity - and remember we just know about a few public bodies to date.

---

Now, my question: why, why, why are educated, intelligent, middle class Irish citizens not up in arms in disgust at all this handy money, our money, thrown at deeply dubious (at very best) characters like Fingleton (don't forget his €27 million plus pension, by the way), O'Donoghue and Molloy? Why is middle class Ireland not livid with all politicians - the entire political class - for their utterly blasé attitude to expenses when hundreds of thousands of people have been made unemployed and hundreds of thousands more have taken substantial pay cuts, and countless others are trapped in homes with negative equity. Where is the rage? Where is the shame at what is still being done with our taxes?

Where are the patriots of Irish society, indeed of this state, now? From the judges to all the political parties to the senior civil servants: none of them are fighting for the ordinary taxpayer who is paying for their luxuries.

So, instead of all those treehuggers, wasters, anarchists, tossers and layabouts that usually protest: when will middle class Ireland have the courage to take to the streets and protest rather than delude themselves into thinking that Fine Gael or Labour will be more open, honest and accountable with our money than the current kleptocracy?

You wanna know why? You wanna know the simple truth of why they will never do so.

I'll tell you why. The middle class are too busy occupied with their own lifestyle that they don't really care. They are too busy buying gadgets and gizmos stuffing their faces full of mcdonalds and watching coronation street or sex in the city. Thats the middle class of ireland today. They don't care about anyone but themselves and their measy possessions. Me fein and what me fein can get is all that matters. The middle class will never revolt. Too busy deciding what car to buy or where to go on holiday next year. The working class would revolt because they have less to lose. The middle class wouldn't.

Once people own more and have more to lose they put up less resistance to the ruling powers. If im a guy with a lot of money think about it am i going to revolt against the ruling power ? Hell no! If im a guy with no money and the ruling powers have it all im going to feel aggreived and more likely to take to the streets or worse. Thats the way its always been and thats the way it always will be.

The government knows this and taxes them to the hilt, takes as much money as they can from them. Look at all the nex tax laws. They are all aimed at the middle class. The idea is to eventually destroy the middle class and have them on par with the working class as just one big underclass to the elite ruling types. The middle class of today in ireland would sell their own grandmother for an s.u.v. Sure whats their own countries freedom? Bah sure can always watch match of the day later on. Its a joke what this country has become. Whats worse is the politicans know the middle class are the softest of soft touches and will always be free to carry out whatever scandal they please free from any sort of reprecussions. They are a reflection of the middle class just at a higher level.


Another reason is irish people take flight anytime the going gets tough. You'll often hear them say ahh to hell with it im off to the greener pastures of australia, or america or canada. News flash people they have their problems over there too just as bad as we do. Running away from your problems will never sort the problem out. You have to stay and face the music. I know many people who have emigrated and after the intial buzz of the new place wears off they find themselves facing the same problems they had over here just in a different form. Then they start wishing they were home again. Plastic paddies. They want it alll watching the munster, leinster or ireland soccer games in sunny adelaide whilst proclaimin their love of ireland yet not even living there. Oh and don't even suggest to them their not irish anymore. They don't mind telling the locals in their new found dwelling how irish they are and how they love the emerald isle. Just u know the weather an all that. Plastic paddies. Thats the middle class for you.

Simple. Thats just the reality.

asdasd

If im a guy with no money and the ruling powers have it all im going to feel aggreived and more likely to take to the streets or worse. Thats the way its always been and thats the way it always will be.

Actually thats not how historically revolutions work at all - they are generally led by the middle classes. in a welfare State the guy with no money is not going to rock the boat, believe me. He is doing ok. It is the guy on negative equity who is in trouble.

Anyway, you are right about the lack of flight options these days. There will be a reaction against the politicans in power at the moment. They will be kicked out of power given an election. There was never really going to be a revolution by middle class people in a democracy, I am not sure how you expected, or what you expected to happen. Unfortunatley we cant actually make the parliament vote no confidence by shouting on the streets.

That said - street protest might do something to make the governments life untenable. As to why we have no street protest:

1) Lack of organisation. The Public Sector will protest - you;ll see - who represents the private sector worker, or the guy just laid off?
2) This very medium itself. The internet. Our daily hate hour day very day. here we can be angry. We expend our energy here.
3) The very problem with the boom itself is it made us live in Edge cities where we would have to commute to protest. Having commuted home we couldnt be assed - so online we go.

odoylerulez

asdasd wrote: »

Actually thats not how historically revolutions work at all - they are generally led by the middle classes. in a welfare State the guy with no money is not going to rock the boat, believe me. He is doing ok. It is the guy on negative equity who is in trouble.

Anyway, you are right about the lack of flight options these days. There will be a reaction against the politicans in power at the moment. They will be kicked out of power given an election. There was never really going to be a revolution by middle class people in a democracy, I am not sure how you expected, or what you expected to happen. Unfortunatley we cant actually make the parliament vote no confidence by shouting on the streets.

That said - street protest might do something to make the governments life untenable. As to why we have no street protest:

1) Lack of organisation. The Public Sector will protest - you;ll see - who represents the private sector worker, or the guy just laid off?
2) This very medium itself. The internet. Our daily hate hour day very day. here we can be angry. We expend our energy here.
3) The very problem with the boom itself is it made us live in Edge cities where we would have to commute to protest. Having commuted home we couldnt be assed - so online we go.

man you nailed it on the internet. Thats exactly why these forums exist. Expend all your energy here amongst your piers, go off the internet and you'll feel better. They don't mind that as long as we are bickering amongst ourselves. Divide and conquer. By the time the average joe soap has had his rant over he doesn't feel the urge to go out and do something about it. He has had his rant.

But thats just probably the way its always been. In the old days it was newspaper letters etc. Just seems as if its the same ole same ole. Maybe thats just the way it was meant to be.

Amhran Nua

odoylerulez wrote: »

Another reason is irish people take flight anytime the going gets tough. You'll often hear them say ahh to hell with it im off to the greener pastures of australia, or america or canada.

Indeed, this time lets put the politicians on the boat and give jobs to our young people.