Why are intelligent, university-educated, middle class Irish people not in revolt?

Rebelheart

This is long but I'm beyond caring about anybody who is offended by that insignificant fact.

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Where are the patriots of this state, the people who should be fighting to protect our interests? By "our" I mean those of us who get that wage packet which says "PAYE" on it, followed by the removal of loads of our hard-earned money.

Brian Lenihan demands that we be "patriotic"; his aunt, Mary O'Rourke (a fact which says so much about the nepotism of this crowd), accused all of us who questioned Mr Patrick Bartholomew Ahern's finances of "treason". But who, pray tell, are the real "traitors" of Irish society in 2009?


Every day we hear a new "revelation" about how we, PAYE taxpayers in this state, are funding the extraordinarily obscene "expenses" of the Rody Molloy, Michael Fingleton, John O'Donoghue types, this after people like Patrick Neary received hundreds of thousands of euro, our money, for making the supreme cock-up as the so-called Financial Regulator (and I'm not simply talking about his arrogant Prime Time interview which precipitated his resignation).

And then we have the judges, who collectively threatened legal action if they were forced to contribute to the pension levy in the same way as other public servants. They claimed it was unconstitutional for them to be forced to pay a levy like everybody else. Nobody in political life stood up for us then, either. Nobody. The judges, self-declared honourable people, simply joined the O'Donoghue, Fingleton, Molloy types and pissed on us. Let's not try and dress that up.

With so many cases of arrant avarice, rapacity and exploitation of our (very limited) public resources, it's not surprising we forget the names never mind the sheer arrogance displayed by each and every one of these people as they fleece us.

This evening, Mr Brian Cowen - a man paid more that the President of the United States - came on RTÉ News and said that this Rody Molloy individual was *entitled* to everything which he received. This is brazen old boys network stuff giving an almighty two fingers to us all again. That this Molloy chap was given even more than he was legally entitled to - and tax free at that, a detail which gave him, in reality, hundreds of thousands of euro more - and that this was (allegedly) done without the Department of Finance officials seeking legal advice begs the question: where are the patriots of the Irish state now? They most assuredly are not among these senior civil and public servants representing our hard-earned taxes.

Meanwhile, across both Dáil Éireann and that pointless jobs-for-the-boys entity named Seanad Éireann no political party is advocating disclosure of politicians' expenses, caps on those expenses or indeed anything whatsoever that financially impedes their ability to exploit the wealth which the people of this state have created.

Fine Gael, Labour, the Green Party, Sinn Féin and Fianna Fáil are at one: "expenses" should not be revealed. One prominent Labour TD (Emmet Stagg) came out two weeks ago and said he did not support a transparent expenses system because he had to give money to each and every organisation which sought it from him in his constituency. If he did not have access to these "expenses" he could not do this and, he emphasised, he would not be re-elected. He was very honest about it.
This, therefore, is what the opposition is offering us on the issue of expenses: no change, no more openness than Fianna Fáil. Where are the patriots in Fine Gael and Labour? They are, very sadly, just as elusive.


Now, it is really just a matter of these senior public servants, be they elected or not, keeping their heads down and waiting till it blows over. Every day is the same sort of revelation of obscenity - and remember we just know about a few public bodies to date.

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Now, my question: why, why, why are educated, intelligent, middle class Irish citizens not up in arms in disgust at all this handy money, our money, thrown at deeply dubious (at very best) characters like Fingleton (don't forget his €27 million plus pension, by the way), O'Donoghue and Molloy? Why is middle class Ireland not livid with all politicians - the entire political class - for their utterly blasé attitude to expenses when hundreds of thousands of people have been made unemployed and hundreds of thousands more have taken substantial pay cuts, and countless others are trapped in homes with negative equity. Where is the rage? Where is the shame at what is still being done with our taxes?

Where are the patriots of Irish society, indeed of this state, now? From the judges to all the political parties to the senior civil servants: none of them are fighting for the ordinary taxpayer who is paying for their luxuries.

So, instead of all those treehuggers, wasters, anarchists, tossers and layabouts that usually protest: when will middle class Ireland have the courage to take to the streets and protest rather than delude themselves into thinking that Fine Gael or Labour will be more open, honest and accountable with our money than the current kleptocracy?

mike65

To what end?

Vegeta

Because we're as useless as the shower who govern us.

TirNaNog.

What about the intelligent people who attended DIT,LIT,GMIT etc.........

Rebelheart

mike65 wrote: »

To what end?

To force the political class to change the way it spends our money, to force it to be entirely honest about "expenses", to force it to, as a rule and policy, provide details of deals which are now just shady backroom silencers, to force it to revisit quickly and comprehensively the obscene rewards giving to public servants like Molloy, people whom Brian Cowen claims are legally "entitled" to their rewards, to force it to reduce the unjustifiable salaries paid to all TDs and to end the disgusting sight of people like Eoghan Harris receiving over €100,000 of our money as a reward for supporting the taoiseach of the day on national television, to force it to abolish Seanad Éireann or, at the very least, stop it for being an absurdly well-paid home for rejected politicians and political supporters who, on their own, have little or nothing to add to improving society.

Consistent and continuous pressure on this political class, through widespread public demonstrations, will achieve results; they will be forced from them. At present the middle classes cannot see past this crisis and are thus terrified of toppling the state by widespread protests akin to the anti-War protest in 2003 (115,000 people in Dublin) multiplied by ten or twenty occasions. When the current crisis is over it will return to business as usual with the same old corruption as strong as ever. Now, while we have them by the balls with their collective political snout in the trough, is the time to force these long overdue ethical modernisations of how political life is carried on here.

dan_d

Mike65 - in answer to your question "to what end"....the longer we stand around and let this happen, the worse it's going to get AND the more it's going to continue. They parrot around that's it's a "disgrace" and terrible, and the media are fed line after line after line about how things have to change. There are reports and investigations, and people in front of committees...and at the end of it all, we move on to the next scandal next week. This time 20-30 years ago, this was going on (witness Charlie Haughey, Ray Burke.... how many more of them are there?) and it's still going on. Except now it's more widespread. And even more corrupt.

A certain story sticks in my head - can't remember the name of the developer involved or what exactly the numbers were, but the gist of it was that in the last 6 years a certain developer (I believe) sold his share in a quarry to an Eastern European investor. The payment of many million, was dropped IN CASH in a graveyard across the street from his house in the middle of the night. Whereupon, he went over, picked it up and went on his merry way.
Our tax money is bailing out that. What the hell????I mean, where do you even BEGIN with pointing out what's wrong with that? And worse - the complete piece of slime that did this claimed he "didn't see anything unusual with that way of making a payment" and EXPECTED US TO BELIEVE THAT!!!!!!

The problem is that Irish people are excellent at whinging and moaning and talking things to death, while trying to outdo their neighbour....we NEVER actually do anything about the situation. We've got nice and complacent over the last 10 years, and now we're too lazy to get up and call a halt to this disgraceful behaviour. We put those politicians in their positions, we can get rid of them, no matter what they say.

I don't know if you've ever heard the saying " Evil prevails when good men fail to act". It's very true, and extremely apt in this country at this point in time. I am raging. I would love to go out and do something about this, rather than just leave, which is all I can see as an option right now. But the protests that are going on are just not about the right things.(as in, Lisbon, no pension levy etc, etc). Some cuts we have to live with - the money is just not there anymore. Why aren't we on the streets in front of the dail every single week we see headlines like we did today??Why don't we make it crystal clear that we will NOT tolerate any more of the corruption that goes on in the back-slapping boys club of politicians and Irish developers?

Sorry about the rant, but it makes me so angry.

AlekSmart

Because we're as useless as the shower who govern us.

Could we get the above quote as a Bart Simpson Blackboard script....cos ain`t it the truth !!!!!

optocynic

Because our liberal, pinko brains would melt and our bleeding hearts explode in our chests.

But seriously, there is still something to the phrase. 'How we treat the least among us. defines us'... however, I believe, to save and revive an economy, it is how we treat the best among us too.. they are the ones that will save us in the end... not the people in the welfare queues..

The Ugly Truth

Overheal

Where are the patriots of this state

Why my dear boy, theyve been laughed into the foothills of the North, probably to conduct some guerilla warfare with rubber ducks and paintballs.

But the serious answer is mainstream ireland has completely dissolved the concept of Patriotism since - Im guessing - the Good Friday Agreement and all that. Patriotism became associated with Terrorism, Pipe Bombs and Civilian Violence. If you're an Irish patriot, you're considered a Relic, and people laugh at you or try to report you to the 'Gards.

So what you've lost is a very important part of your Political Sphere which has been all but absorbed by socialism and nuetrality and all these things that are Fine when they are part of a Balance Political Spectrum but a lopsided or Monopolised govt is going to corrupt itself from the inside out without that very important thing: An Opposing Force. The truth is there isnt enough Patriotism left in your country to balance out anything else and unfortunately your country is headed for a calamity of some description, now that its being run away with by a small army of embezzlers who don't know enough about governing so they want to pass off some of the responsibility on Lisbon so they can get back to the Beach. You might think you're already in that Calamity given how bad things have been - You're Not.

Latchy

Overheal wrote: »

Why my dear boy, theyve been laughed into the foothills of the North, probably to conduct some guerilla warfare with rubber ducks and paintballs.

But the serious answer is mainstream ireland has completely dissolved the concept of Patriotism since - Im guessing - the Good Friday Agreement and all that. Patriotism became associated with Terrorism, Pipe Bombs and Civilian Violence. If you're an Irish patriot, you're considered a Relic, and people laugh at you or try to report you to the 'Gards.

So what you've lost is a very important part of your Political Sphere which has been all but absorbed by socialism and nuetrality and all these things that are Fine when they are part of a Balance Political Spectrum but a lopsided or Monopolised govt is going to corrupt itself from the inside out without that very important thing: An Opposing Force. The truth is there isnt enough Patriotism left in your country to balance out anything else and unfortunately your country is headed for a calamity of some description, now that its being run away with by a small army of embezzlers who don't know enough about governing so they want to pass off some of the responsibility on Lisbon so they can get back to the Beach. You might think you're already in that Calamity given how bad things have been - You're Not.

Above reminds me in a way of Englishman Samual Johnson Quote ie,

'' Patriotisim is the last refuge of the scoundral '' .

The embezzlers ( scoundrals ) in question will use that Patriotisim as a smoke screen to cover their dirty deeds while leaving the real patriots to wallow in nostalgia .

Nolanger

Spineless that's why. Also, brainwashed from doing the Leaving Cert into not thinking outside the 'box'.

Overheal

Latchy wrote: »

Above reminds me in a way of Englishman Samual Johnson Quote ie,

'' Patriotisim is the last refuge of the scoundral '' .

The embezzlers ( scoundrals ) in question will use that Patriotisim as a smoke screen to cover their dirty deeds while leaving the real patriots to wallow in nostalgia .

Do you mean they will call beaching in FL patriotic or try to blame their beaching on Patriots?

Im confused.

Latchy

Overheal wrote: »

Do you mean they will call beaching in FL patriotic or try to blame their beaching on Patriots?

Ah that is the question , being patriotic as you say can be a double edged coin .I mean the Irish voting yes to the Lisbon treaty might go a long way in restoring other Europeans faith in the irish people ability to choose although that choice might suit some but not others .

Overheal

Its not even really about Lisbon. Lisbon is just circumstantial/incidental. Even without it Ireland's internal politics have become weak. Too many people who are disinterested. Case and point, that thread in AH about national flags - the amount of gray moaners who are like "why would you be proud of where you were born? You had no choice in it." Bla Bla Bla. No sense of national pride (and I dont mean diminished sense of pride - No Sense of pride) and a Who the **** Cares Attitude that is so prevalent in modern ireland.

Not to steretype but is everyone just depressed to the point of apathy through drink and foul weather? Somethings gone wrong. You need your groove back Ireland.

DeVore

Rebelheart wrote: »

To force the political class to change the way it spends our money, to force it to be entirely honest about "expenses", to force it to, as a rule and policy, provide details of deals which are now just shady backroom silencers, to force it to revisit quickly and comprehensively the obscene rewards giving to public servants like Molloy, people whom Brian Cowen claims are legally "entitled" to their rewards, to force it to reduce the unjustifiable salaries paid to all TDs and to end the disgusting sight of people like Eoghan Harris receiving over €100,000 of our money as a reward for supporting the taoiseach of the day on national television, to force it to abolish Seanad Éireann or, at the very least, stop it for being an absurdly well-paid home for rejected politicians and political supporters who, on their own, have little or nothing to add to improving society.

Consistent and continuous pressure on this political class, through widespread public demonstrations, will achieve results; they will be forced from them. At present the middle classes cannot see past this crisis and are thus terrified of toppling the state by widespread protests akin to the anti-War protest in 2003 (115,000 people in Dublin) multiplied by ten or twenty occasions. When the current crisis is over it will return to business as usual with the same old corruption as strong as ever. Now, while we have them by the balls with their collective political snout in the trough, is the time to force these long overdue ethical modernisations of how political life is carried on here.

Yeah... that ever so effective anti-war protest.

How will anyone "force" anything, without armed revolution? I think none of us want to start down that route... right?

DeV.

peasant

DeVore wrote: »

How will anyone "force" anything, without armed revolution? I think none of us want to start down that route... right?

DeV.

Even if the "revolution" was peaceful and not armed, it would still end in some shape or form of upheaval and a period of uncertainty until things settle down again (unless you're talking about putting a dictatorship in place )

And therein lies the rub ...uncertainty and upheaval.
Not something that goes well with middle class. We might not have much (and the governement is taking successively more) but nothing frightens us more than the prospect of possibly losing it all. Starting with jobs (those that still have one hardly dare be sick these days for fear of losing it) via savings (mustn't upset the banks or the savings might disappear) to property (imagine an angry mob helping itself to your car and gadgets)

So there we sit, shaking with anger at the corruption of it all and at the same time trembling with fear of change.

And we shall sit and shake and tremble for much longer and happily cling to all the propaganda of how NAMA will save us, how we're coming out of recession soon and how our betters have nothing but the interest of the nation (going forward) in their hearts

Basically ...we're wimps

Earthhorse

Rebelheart wrote: »

Consistent and continuous pressure on this political class, through widespread public demonstrations, will achieve results; they will be forced from them. At present the middle classes cannot see past this crisis and are thus terrified of toppling the state by widespread protests akin to the anti-War protest in 2003 (115,000 people in Dublin) multiplied by ten or twenty occasions. When the current crisis is over it will return to business as usual with the same old corruption as strong as ever. Now, while we have them by the balls with their collective political snout in the trough, is the time to force these long overdue ethical modernisations of how political life is carried on here.

Most people who are intelligent, university-educated and middle class (whatever that means) are too busy taking advantage of their intelligence, university education and "middle-classness" in full time employment to be able to exert consistent and continuous pressure on this political class; and are probably skeptical of the effectiveness of such pressure too. People aren't terrified of toppling the state, they're worried about losing their house or their job.

I would also wager that many do not see the situation as being as bad as you do. There is corruption no doubt, widespread and worrying. But the idea that there aren't people working to fight that is a myth; there have always been good people in the employ of the state and I don't believe that's changed now. They are working quietly and determinedly toward making Ireland a better place for everyone but we don't here about it because it's marginal, incremental and, in short, not sensational.

Rebelheart wrote: »

Where are the patriots of Irish society, indeed of this state, now? From the judges to all the political parties to the senior civil servants: none of them are fighting for the ordinary taxpayer who is paying for their luxuries.

So, instead of all those treehuggers, wasters, anarchists, tossers and layabouts that usually protest: when will middle class Ireland have the courage to take to the streets and protest rather than delude themselves into thinking that Fine Gael or Labour will be more open, honest and accountable with our money than the current kleptocracy?

Seriously? Marching? Taking to the streets? That's your answer? Political protest has never been an effective means of achieving political change, especially in countries that are largely politically stable. They might make the "treehuggers, wasters, anarchists and tossers" feel better, like they've achieved something but that's just the feeling of getting something off your chest for the most part. It's odd that you would choose to adopt a tactic of a demographic you appear to have disdain for too.

The fact is that change is going to be achieved mainly by people entering the political system, in whatever way, and influencing things for the better. That is hard work; it's boring, detailed, bureaucratic, long term, compromising stuff. Getting angry won't really achieve anything. Which is why protests don't achieve anything, because they're just an expression of that pent up anger which quickly dissipates into thin air.

Overheal wrote: »

Why my dear boy, theyve been laughed into the foothills of the North, probably to conduct some guerilla warfare with rubber ducks and paintballs.

But the serious answer is mainstream ireland has completely dissolved the concept of Patriotism since - Im guessing - the Good Friday Agreement and all that. Patriotism became associated with Terrorism, Pipe Bombs and Civilian Violence. If you're an Irish patriot, you're considered a Relic, and people laugh at you or try to report you to the 'Gards.

So what you've lost is a very important part of your Political Sphere which has been all but absorbed by socialism and nuetrality and all these things that are Fine when they are part of a Balance Political Spectrum but a lopsided or Monopolised govt is going to corrupt itself from the inside out without that very important thing: An Opposing Force. The truth is there isnt enough Patriotism left in your country to balance out anything else and unfortunately your country is headed for a calamity of some description, now that its being run away with by a small army of embezzlers who don't know enough about governing so they want to pass off some of the responsibility on Lisbon so they can get back to the Beach. You might think you're already in that Calamity given how bad things have been - You're Not.

I don't really know what to make of this post. It's quite an ambiguous argument. I don't think we're headed for any such calamity nor do I think the kind of patriots you describe are welcome, wanted or useful for the nation.

MoominPapa

Fin de siecle ennui?

peasant

Earthhorse wrote: »

The fact is that change is going to be achieved mainly by people entering the political system, in whatever way, and influencing things for the better. That is hard work; it's boring, detailed, bureaucratic, long term, compromising stuff.

Personally, I tend (more and more so) to believe that the Irish system of administration and governance (not just the current shower at the top, but the majority of the apparatus and structure) is so severely broken, so thoroughly inadequate and so well entrenched that progressive improvement just isn't going to cut it.

Sadly I have not yet found the solution to the question of how else one could possibly try and fix it without breaking the whole thing altogether.

Earthhorse

peasant wrote: »

Personally, I tend (more and more so) to believe that the Irish system of administration and governance (not just the current shower at the top, but the majority of the apparatus and structure) is so severely broken, so thoroughly inadequate and so well entrenched that progressive improvement just isn't going to cut it.

Sadly I have not yet found the solution to the question of how else one could possibly try and fix it without breaking the whole thing altogether.

This is the thing; most of us are on the outside of that and don't know why improvements aren't appearing. At least, not as many and as fast as we would like. That's frustrating and leads people toward the extremity of wanting to throw out everything and start again. I really don't think that's workable but you are probably right when you say (well, not explicitly, so correct me if I'm inferring incorrectly) that real, systemic, change is needed. But I would argue that won't come from the outside either, but from someone within the system.

(By the way, not sure if you are working in state employment or not so perhaps you have a different perspective; I'm not, by the way ).

peasant

Earthhorse wrote: »

you say (well, not explicitly, so correct me if I'm inferring incorrectly) that real, systemic, change is needed.

Indeed, that seems to be the case

(By the way, not sure if you are working in state employment or not so perhaps you have a different perspective; I'm not, by the way ).

I'm not even an Irish citizen, never mind state employee ...I just "donate" my money

Overheal

Earthhorse wrote: »

I don't really know what to make of this post. It's quite an ambiguous argument. I don't think we're headed for any such calamity nor do I think the kind of patriots you describe are welcome, wanted or useful for the nation.

Frankly Sir, without those kind of Patriots, you and I would be British Colonists both.

Now I have nothing against the Brits but you're telling me in general you don't see the use of the Component in society that preserves National Identity and Interest?

If you aren't proud to live there, by all means leave. It sounds like it would make no difference to you.

DeVore wrote: »

Yeah... that ever so effective anti-war protest.

How will anyone "force" anything, without armed revolution? I think none of us want to start down that route... right?

DeV.

No of course not. But of note, the government doesn't seem to listen to you. When a peaceful protester walks into a New England rally with an assault rifle over his back, he makes international news.

It's really hard to discredit the fact that your government doesn't seem afraid of you (or to respect you) in the slightest. You hold no cards and they are making all the plays.

Seriously? Marching? Taking to the streets? That's your answer? Political protest has never been an effective means of achieving political change, especially in countries that are largely politically stable.

I'm going to pretend I dont know who made this quote, or else I might have to berate and ridicule that person to no end.

I'll just take the few that pop into my head. Im sure you can think of many others folks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_protests

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_on_Rome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Iranian_election_protests

News Flash: Healthcare Reform is no longer being plunged through the electorate like a willing slut through the crowd on prom night; That one was a peaceful coup and really did reform the government (...); and the other 2 really brought to light some awful atrocities we might never have been aware of otherwise.

I really worry about the upbringing that this person had, to not know that they do not have to be victimized, trapped and imprisoned, held hostage, by their own government. The government is For the People, by the People. The People Make It; The People can Break It.

Oh don't get me wrong you certainly have the option of playing by Their Rules (getting elected, being ignored on the Dail floor for several years until youve kissed enough ass and made and taken enough bribes) but I think its sick. Sick. That you think speaking out is futile.

Earthhorse

Overheal wrote: »

Now I have nothing against the Brits but you're telling me in general you don't see the use of the Component in society that preserves National Identity and Interest?

Not at this point in time, no.

If you aren't proud to live there, by all means leave. It sounds like it would make no difference to you.

Don't really understand what point you're making there.

I'll just take the few that pop into my head. Im sure you can think of many others folks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_protests

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_on_Rome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Iranian_election_protests

I'd be interested in hearing what you think those last two achieved. The March on Rome, which wasn't just a march, was a change for the ill. Again, I don't think that these things are effective means of change in countries such as ours.

News Flash: Healthcare Reform is no longer being plunged through the electorate like a willing slut through the crowd on prom night; That one was a peaceful coup and really did reform the government (...); and the other 2 really brought to light some awful atrocities we might never have been aware of otherwise.

The other 2 what? Not sure what you're talking about here.

I really worry about the upbringing that this person had, to not know that they do not have to be victimized, trapped and imprisoned, held hostage, by their own government. The government is For the People, by the People. The People Make It; The People can Break It.

Again, you seem to be making really tangential points that don't make any sense to me.

Oh don't get me wrong you certainly have the option of playing by Their Rules (getting elected, being ignored on the Dail floor for several years until youve kissed enough ass and made and taken enough bribes) but I think its sick. Sick. That you think speaking out is futile.

You may well think it sick, I think it naive that you think merely speaking it out is enough to achieve real change.

Overheal

You're right. Lets tap our keyboards and hope they read your mind. Or your blog. Whatever.

I told you what I thought the other 2 protests accomplished do feel free to have a read.... which just goes to show you, what blogging on the internet accomplishes as far as getting your point across to someone :rolleyes:

OldJay

Overheal wrote: »

You're right. Lets tap our keyboards and hope they read your mind. Or your blog. Whatever

Isn't that what you're doing?

thebman

We have a democracy, all we have to do is elect people that will reform, we don't have to revolt.

Revolution leads to instability, nothing scares away investment from Ireland like a bunch of paddies with their underwear in a twist because people outside Ireland rarely take the time to actually look at our problems, they'll just see there are lots of problems and move on to somewhere with less problems.

We should just elect the right people but where the hell are they? I could stand for election but given I have no background in politics, I'm unlikely to get elected especially since I can't do the necessary favors for the local GAA club. The reality is most Irish people are content letting the politicians have their way so they can go ask for the odd favor they aren't due when they need it so the politician can have their vote. Then they'll say they did good work for the community and it justifies the politicians self-interest to themselves since they were acting in self-interest when they asked for the favor they weren't due either.

The reality seems to be that parish pump politics killed Irish politics and nobody wants a revolution because that seems a bit extreme.

Earthhorse

Overheal wrote: »

I told you what I thought the other 2 protests accomplished do feel free to have a read.... which just goes to show you, what blogging on the internet accomplishes as far as getting your point across to someone

No, it just goes to show that it was the early am when I read your post and because I assumed the first link was to the Boston Tea Party the following paragraph made no sense to me. I'll deal with that in a sec, but first...

You're right. Lets tap our keyboards and hope they read your mind. Or your blog. Whatever.

Actually, if you read back over my posts I'm advocating getting involved in the political process, not merely venting, whether it's on the streets or online. Blogging, as a means of effecting political change is new, at the least, and indeed is bringing awareness to us of events in China and Iran, the same way those protests did. I wouldn't hold too much hope for it changing the world but it'll be interesting to see what it's capable of.

News Flash: Healthcare Reform is no longer being plunged through the electorate like a willing slut through the crowd on prom night;

What a beautiful little metaphor. I hadn't followed those events but from reading the link there doesn't appear to be any direct link between those protests and Obama's healthcare reform package not passing with ease.

That one was a peaceful coup and really did reform the government (...);

It did yeah, for the worse. I don't regard that as an achievement. And the coup wasn't merely a result of the march. There's a context there you're leaving out.

and the other 2 really brought to light some awful atrocities we might never have been aware of otherwise.

Again, this is scant achievement. They didn't really change anything in the long run.

jonsnow

All the intelligent university educated middle class people I know are either working like crazy to keep their jobs,have been let go and have emigrated to australia or canada or have gone back to university to upskill.They are all too busy or to far away to give a s*** about how the current gang are raping us and destroying our country.I would say of the fifty friends that come to mind 5 (including me) are anyway politically engaged.I,ve just started a new professional training course myself and when that has run its course I,m on the first plane to vancouver and I,m not coming back either and then I,ll never have to fume about NAMA,coughlan,Fingers ,seanie, AIB,BOI,molloy,and all the other scandals that have yet to surface ever again.

Some posters are talking about fixing the body politic from the inside slowly and incremently.That patently will not work in an irish context.Given the amount of anger and pressure that has been put on our public representatives, senior civil servants and leading businessmen and professionals it has been stunning how they blithely continue how they always have.No-one accepts responsibility or resigns,they sort out their mates at all costs claiming that said mates are "entitled" to the bailout or golden handshake,they reluctantly and begrudgingly trim their salaries by the minimum they can get away with-(this also applies to the people supposed to question them our media representatives Pat Kenny,joe duffy tubridy etc.).The current system does not respond to pressure in any meaningful way.

The elite are cushioned and protected from their own mistakes and incompetence.Having observed their offspring in college I can also say that the next generation have the same sense of smug entitlement,blind loyalty to party above country and are more than incompetent enough to carry the torch over the next twenty years.

Our PR system has consistently failed the irish people since it was introduced.We keep putting in power the same connected families who keep giving us boom and bust cycles while stuffing their pockets in good times or bad.I genuinely believe that we need a second republic and a new system of governance.Otherwise when we limp out of our current problems in 2016 we will just start down the same road again.Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.But we are such a conservative people that I cant see that happening.Thats why I,m probably going to emigrate to a country where they have decent public services,well run competitive banks,a functioning well thought out immigration system and all their taxes don,t go to prop up a corrupt elite in the comfort to which they are accustomed.Rant over.

edanto

Why are they not out in the streets?

Experience has shown me that street protest is very limited in what it can achieve. On top of that, any resolution to this problem will be very complex and people will generally only protest about a single issue.

Which leads on to the main reason (IMHO) that the group you refer to are not doing something very obvious about the problem - lack of agreement. For example all over boards.ie, you can find people disagreeing about the best way to fix problems, like and dislikes on every subject. The same is true when people like ourselves in this thread that love Ireland and see the rot try and think about how best to fix it - we will disagree about how best to go about it. We argue about the finer points of the solution and get so bogged down in our discussions that we forget that the essence of communication is to find common ground.

FF & FG have already solved this problem to a large extent, internalising dissent, agreeing structures that make binding decisions for the group and then being able to co-ordinate their efforts in support of that decision. Critically, even people that were originally opposed to the decision come and support it because of their allegiance to the party. For that reason, FFFG have been in power almost continuously since the foundation of the state and they appear to compete even though these days there is very little between them politically.

You should read Earthhorses's post carefully. The political system is not going to be overthrown by street protests, and it is not possible to establish an alternative competing structure.

As he says, the only option to improve our situation is via reform from the inside. If you want to effect change, you must sign up with a political party. Find the one that you are closest to and then either campaign for that party on their priority issues and/or campaign inside that party for the issues that you prioritise.

That involves getting out and talking to strangers about politics - but don't use the word politics or their eyes will glaze over. Talk about what people can actually do to make a difference, start local and take it from there. It takes time, it's harder than posting on boards.ie, but it is the only thing that can work.

There is no quick fix. But you can eat an elephant one mouthful at a time.

DoireNod

There have been some very good posts so far.

I think the main reason that people don't resort to 'revolt', is because they have too much to lose. Irish people who have been university educated and are middle-class aren't going to go out and rebel against the system they rely on or endeavour to be a part of.

I reject the notion that protest and revolt is unnecessary and does not lead to change. Precedent shows otherwise. What certainly won't lead to change is not protesting and revolting.

I also reject the notion that intelligence comes with university education. There are too many idiotic drones being churned out of university for that to be the case.

amacca

peasant wrote: »

Even if the "revolution" was peaceful and not armed, it would still end in some shape or form of upheaval and a period of uncertainty until things settle down again (unless you're talking about putting a dictatorship in place )

And therein lies the rub ...uncertainty and upheaval.
Not something that goes well with middle class. We might not have much (and the governement is taking successively more) but nothing frightens us more than the prospect of possibly losing it all. Starting with jobs (those that still have one hardly dare be sick these days for fear of losing it) via savings (mustn't upset the banks or the savings might disappear) to property (imagine an angry mob helping itself to your car and gadgets)

So there we sit, shaking with anger at the corruption of it all and at the same time trembling with fear of change.

That pretty much answers it in my mind anyway.

The best way to keep people onboard anything is to give them a stake in the organization.

Established "middle class" (still in employment) Ireland has too much to lose if the kind of action the OP was talking about came to pass.

If you want to see sustained protesting etc, start taking away or putting in serious jeopardy the things Peasant has mentioned (jobs/pay, savings, property) from large numbers of " middle class" people and they wont be long finding where the streets are.

While things are uncertain but holding out remains a possibility if the applecart isn't upset.... I believe the majority will tread softly. They still have too much to lose for the satisfaction of getting out the pitchforks.

The ones screaming the loudest are the ones who have lost significantly, they might as well protest, it might improve their situation, now that they have lost, they pretty much have nothing left to lose.

Its ugly but its the truth, not so deep down... all of us have our own best interests at heart, there are very few truly idealistic people out there who care deeply about their fellow man and would put his interests above theirs. Its the way your programmed, it wasn't so long ago you were running around naked bashing the neighboring tribesman's head in for half a
rotten deer carcass.

My advice, start competing.......and if you cant beat them join them. Thats the kind of self serving attitude you will find the most of the people around you have in the long run.

lycopodium123

The reason no-one is out protesting is because whatever protests or arguments are made will fall on deaf ears. Who are we hoping will "listen to" and "help" us - the government?!!! It's exactly because of this shower of ***** that people have given up.
I would gladly get out and march, protest, scream n shout every weekend to get the country sorted but I know that won't help and everyone I know feels the same. How are we supposed to expect the f*ckers who have robbed the country blind and left us in this mess and gotten away with it to listen to us for a start and then act in an honourable manner, in the interest of everyone in the country rather than just the big guns when this is "the norm"?!
I think everyone who has their bags packed has the right idea, why would anyone in their right mind choose to live in a country so corrupt, where the government is SCREWING everyone over and getting away with it? With a "health care system" that wouldn't be found in a 3rd world country, with a "leader" who looks like a well known disney character - and doesn't act far from it either?! with a minister for health who is morbidly obese and a vice-"leader" who doesn't understand what SHE is saying most of the time, let alone those around her?
and the very worst part of it all is that the f*ckers will probably get in again!!!!
anyone who can get out should do it as fast as they can!

Overheal

Justind wrote: »

Isn't that what you're doing?

Yes it is. Been doing it for a couple years now and nothing has changed except maybe that one time when we got DeV to bring back the rolleyes smiley.

Its an excellent point. We're accomplishing little sitting around and talking about it. But anyway, Ireland's problems are not my battle. However I am disappointed to hear of it.

You should read Earthhorses's post carefully. The political system is not going to be overthrown by street protests, and it is not possible to establish an alternative competing structure.

Thats not really what im saying. But without peaceful demonstration the Dail is going to gleefully ignore the fact that there is a large amount of upset in the state of Ireland. And the media will only discuss it so long before they run out of material about it and move on to the next Jade Goody. The upset in America about this healthcare bill would never have gotten out of the 10pm news slot if it wasnt for the demonstrations. Past that it made international headlines for the next 6 weeks. Thats how you raise some awareness. In a month it will be some other scandal and this process will repeat itself until enough people get out there and say theyre tired of it, and they arent going to take it anymore.

lycopodium123 wrote: »

The reason no-one is out protesting is because whatever protests or arguments are made will fall on deaf ears. Who are we hoping will "listen to" and "help" us - the government?!!! It's exactly because of this shower of ***** that people have given up.
I would gladly get out and march, protest, scream n shout every weekend to get the country sorted but I know that won't help and everyone I know feels the same. How are we supposed to expect the f*ckers who have robbed the country blind and left us in this mess and gotten away with it to listen to us for a start and then act in an honourable manner, in the interest of everyone in the country rather than just the big guns when this is "the norm"?!
I think everyone who has their bags packed has the right idea, why would anyone in their right mind choose to live in a country so corrupt, where the government is SCREWING everyone over and getting away with it? With a "health care system" that wouldn't be found in a 3rd world country, with a "leader" who looks like a well known disney character - and doesn't act far from it either?! with a minister for health who is morbidly obese and a vice-"leader" who doesn't understand what SHE is saying most of the time, let alone those around her?
and the very worst part of it all is that the f*ckers will probably get in again!!!!
anyone who can get out should do it as fast as they can!

these are the kind of sad posts i cant bear to read anymore. The Irish people need a Win soon before they forget what a democracy is.

Copodium you sound so defeated but what have you fought for, yet?

Sir Oxman

thebman wrote: »

We have a democracy, all we have to do is elect people that will reform, we don't have to revolt.

Revolution leads to instability, nothing scares away investment from Ireland like a bunch of paddies with their underwear in a twist because people outside Ireland rarely take the time to actually look at our problems, they'll just see there are lots of problems and move on to somewhere with less problems.

We should just elect the right people but where the hell are they? I could stand for election but given I have no background in politics, I'm unlikely to get elected especially since I can't do the necessary favors for the local GAA club. The reality is most Irish people are content letting the politicians have their way so they can go ask for the odd favor they aren't due when they need it so the politician can have their vote. Then they'll say they did good work for the community and it justifies the politicians self-interest to themselves since they were acting in self-interest when they asked for the favor they weren't due either.

The reality seems to be that parish pump politics killed Irish politics and nobody wants a revolution because that seems a bit extreme.

The chickens are coming home to roost.
Irish people are their own worst enemies - it is obvious the political system needs to be reformed from top to bottom but how the hell do you start considering a vast swathe of voters and nearly every representative are involved in this sham of a democracy?

It just seems impossible that reform will ever take place. Ever.

DeVore

Can a general election be forced by the populace?


if yes, then lets do it.

if no, then we are all wasting our fingertips for another couple of years.


DeV.

dresden8

DeVore wrote: »

Can a general election be forced by the populace?


if yes, then lets do it.

if no, then we are all wasting our fingertips for another couple of years.


DeV.

No to Lisbon may not work.

But it might.

Last chance before 2012.

Overheal

DeVore wrote: »

Can a general election be forced by the populace?


if yes, then lets do it.

if no, then we are all wasting our fingertips for another couple of years.


DeV.

I imagine it wouldn't be easy to do, but if the alternative is waiting around while things get worse for the next few years, what have you to lose by organising demonstrations and protests, or petitions for an emergency GE. There must be something in your constitution/law for just such an event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_of_no_confidence

DeVore

dresden8 wrote: »

No to Lisbon may not work.

But it might.

Last chance before 2012.

Seriously dude, I'm not exactly pro-Yes but thats about the most retarded reason for voting No.

Punish them, not yourself (and us too).

DeV.

dresden8

DeVore wrote: »

Seriously dude, I'm not exactly pro-Yes but thats about the most retarded reason for voting No.

Punish them, not yourself (and us too).

DeV.

FF back benchers will hang on for an elusive recovery. The greens are spineless scum.

Then your only other option is to shoot a FF politician and make them lose their majority.

There is nothing you can do in the meantime.

People will not march.

Even if they do, marches achieve nothing.

Remember this next saturday when Cowen's victory in the Lisbon vote herald's a return to FF's winning ways.

He will be carried shoulder high be some very burly FF'ers out of the RDS. A marvellous personal victory, and also a victory for FF's policy's of the last 12 years.

On your head be it.

So how much do you want to pump into NAMA?

edanto

dresden8 wrote: »

No to Lisbon may not work.

But it might.
.

A No to Lisbon only..... ooops wrong thread. Scratch that.

How to force an election? Find Green Party people, councillors, members, supporters... and express your anger with what the government are doing and get them to walk away.

In my case, I'm particularly p1ssed off with NAMA and this "privatise profit socialise losses" mentality that has crept up while we were reeling from the over-valued imaginary assets crisis (I prefer that name than 'credit crunch', as it's a bit more meaningful)..... anyways the way that NAMA is being set up is disgraceful (here are my reasons) and I think that if we are able to influence the Greens enough they will pull the plug and we will get a changing of the guard. As it happens, I'd like the Greens to be in the next government, but that's by the by - I want FF out.

Right now, the only way to force an election is to convince the voting members of the Greens of the strength of your arguments.

Lisbon is a sideshow compared with this. On NAMA, we stand to lose an entire years tax take just to save the necks of the bankers and their investors. How long will that take us to pay back?

dresden8

FF need to get 54 billion at least to their mates before their inevitable (temporary) demise.

Don't give it to them!

When somebody is lying and stealing from you do not give them what they want.

Basic fncking rule

Overheal

DeVore wrote: »

Seriously dude, I'm not exactly pro-Yes but thats about the most retarded reason for voting No.

Punish them, not yourself (and us too).

DeV.

Lisbon has no effect on me at all and I don't care about it. I also think its separate from the issue. This isn't about whether Ireland decides yes or no on lisbon - in either event, Ireland will still be left with an ineffectual government who cant find the money to keep a childrens hospital running while its giving millions of euro in perks to itself, execs, and other similar abuses.

thebman

dresden8 wrote: »

FF need to get 54 billion at least to their mates before their inevitable (temporary) demise.

Don't give it to them!

When somebody is lying and stealing from you do not give them what they want.

Basic fncking rule

Yeah well the green vote on it is the best bet to stop that.

Using Lisbon to do it or encouraging others to is just sticking two fingers up to the rest of the country and the rest of Europe who want to know if we want Lisbon passed not if FF are doing a good job.

And even if FF are holding Cowen up, FG will be doing the same for Kenny, it has cross party support except for SF and Socialist Parties so they can all claim credit leading to no difference.

SLUSK

The smart people should leave the country. Why hang around and try to save a failed state?

Sleepy

Is the best means of taking down the government to join the greens en-masse and force a party vote in favour of withdrawing from the coallition?

It'd ruin the Green Party, but rather them than Ireland tbh.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

axer

Vegeta wrote: »

Because we're as useless as the shower who govern us.

This is exactly the reason why.

Irish people are useless. This is why we should be integrating as much as possible into the EU. We need someone externally to come in and shake up this country.

DoireNod

axer wrote: »

Irish people are useless. This is why we should be integrating as much as possible into the EU. We need someone externally to come in and shake up this country.

We're not useless. We are capable of much more, we just need to get off our asses and make it happen.

I think it's a cop-out to say that we 'need someone externally to come in and shake up this country'.

axer

DoireNod wrote: »

We are capable of much more, we just need to get off our asses and make it happen.

Ok yes, we are just lazy then and don't really care (actually that makes us useless). "Ah, sure it'll be grand" sums up this country.

DoireNod wrote: »

I think it's a cop-out to say that we 'need someone externally to come in and shake up this country'.

Not a cop-out, just reality. I wish we could do it ourselves but I cannot see us changing any time soon.

anonymous_joe

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There's a bit of truth in that...

I think a major factor tbh is that a lot of the intelligent, middle-class and university-educated people aren't too badly off yet.

They're less likely to be builders, etc, and unless you're a solicitor or architect/engineer you could very well have escaped the worst of the recession so far.

Also, there's a sense that this government is dead already. That's a problem. They're dying certainly, but people are now comfortable in the knowledge of that, and waiting for them to go.

Slugs

dan_d wrote: »

Mike65 - in answer to your question "to what end"....the longer we stand around and let this happen, the worse it's going to get AND the more it's going to continue. They parrot around that's it's a "disgrace" and terrible, and the media are fed line after line after line about how things have to change. There are reports and investigations, and people in front of committees...and at the end of it all, we move on to the next scandal next week. This time 20-30 years ago, this was going on (witness Charlie Haughey, Ray Burke.... how many more of them are there?) and it's still going on. Except now it's more widespread. And even more corrupt.

A certain story sticks in my head - can't remember the name of the developer involved or what exactly the numbers were, but the gist of it was that in the last 6 years a certain developer (I believe) sold his share in a quarry to an Eastern European investor. The payment of many million, was dropped IN CASH in a graveyard across the street from his house in the middle of the night. Whereupon, he went over, picked it up and went on his merry way.
Our tax money is bailing out that. What the hell????I mean, where do you even BEGIN with pointing out what's wrong with that? And worse - the complete piece of slime that did this claimed he "didn't see anything unusual with that way of making a payment" and EXPECTED US TO BELIEVE THAT!!!!!!

The problem is that Irish people are excellent at whinging and moaning and talking things to death, while trying to outdo their neighbour....we NEVER actually do anything about the situation. We've got nice and complacent over the last 10 years, and now we're too lazy to get up and call a halt to this disgraceful behaviour. We put those politicians in their positions, we can get rid of them, no matter what they say.

I don't know if you've ever heard the saying " Evil prevails when good men fail to act". It's very true, and extremely apt in this country at this point in time. I am raging. I would love to go out and do something about this, rather than just leave, which is all I can see as an option right now. But the protests that are going on are just not about the right things.(as in, Lisbon, no pension levy etc, etc). Some cuts we have to live with - the money is just not there anymore. Why aren't we on the streets in front of the dail every single week we see headlines like we did today??Why don't we make it crystal clear that we will NOT tolerate any more of the corruption that goes on in the back-slapping boys club of politicians and Irish developers?

Sorry about the rant, but it makes me so angry.

The Above quote resonates my sentiments exactly. The Irish F*cked up, there is no other way about it. Gone are the days where you will see De Valera or Collins, people with a genuine interest in this country, taking the seats in government. All you will see are mean who are quite content to do everything to line their own pockets. I'm out, for the very simple reason, we're ****ed.

You don't see bankers being hauled into courtrooms and being interrogated by a commitee who want justification, you're seeing bankers entering buildings and casually answer questions. And that's the problem. No one is addressing the main problems. We shouldn't be asking what happened, we should be asking Who f*cked us over.

Realistically there is no hope for Ireland, not in the current state. Brian Cowen should be out. Enda Kenny should be out. Brian Lenihan should be out. Bertie Ahern should be hung, as well as his entire cabinet. Judges should be out, bankers should be jailed, and instead of them being bailed out, your mortgages should be payed off rather then these STUPID F*CKING DIRTY DEALING Landowners who f*cked the system and f*cked you over.

There should be revolution, there should be change, there should be a new government full of people who genuinely f*cking care about this country, and none of this nepotistic bullsh*t we have at the moment. But you're not going to get that, because the university educated are coming out of education and working in a system that is flawed, and have never known any other way, nor will know any other way.

If you've a problem with the obscenity in the above post, then get over it There is no other way to express the anger I have with this country, it's government and it's people.