Why are intelligent, university-educated, middle class Irish people not in revolt?

lycopodium123

The reason no-one is out protesting is because whatever protests or arguments are made will fall on deaf ears. Who are we hoping will "listen to" and "help" us - the government?!!! It's exactly because of this shower of ***** that people have given up.
I would gladly get out and march, protest, scream n shout every weekend to get the country sorted but I know that won't help and everyone I know feels the same. How are we supposed to expect the f*ckers who have robbed the country blind and left us in this mess and gotten away with it to listen to us for a start and then act in an honourable manner, in the interest of everyone in the country rather than just the big guns when this is "the norm"?!
I think everyone who has their bags packed has the right idea, why would anyone in their right mind choose to live in a country so corrupt, where the government is SCREWING everyone over and getting away with it? With a "health care system" that wouldn't be found in a 3rd world country, with a "leader" who looks like a well known disney character - and doesn't act far from it either?! with a minister for health who is morbidly obese and a vice-"leader" who doesn't understand what SHE is saying most of the time, let alone those around her?
and the very worst part of it all is that the f*ckers will probably get in again!!!!
anyone who can get out should do it as fast as they can!

Overheal

Justind wrote: »

Isn't that what you're doing?

Yes it is. Been doing it for a couple years now and nothing has changed except maybe that one time when we got DeV to bring back the rolleyes smiley.

Its an excellent point. We're accomplishing little sitting around and talking about it. But anyway, Ireland's problems are not my battle. However I am disappointed to hear of it.

You should read Earthhorses's post carefully. The political system is not going to be overthrown by street protests, and it is not possible to establish an alternative competing structure.

Thats not really what im saying. But without peaceful demonstration the Dail is going to gleefully ignore the fact that there is a large amount of upset in the state of Ireland. And the media will only discuss it so long before they run out of material about it and move on to the next Jade Goody. The upset in America about this healthcare bill would never have gotten out of the 10pm news slot if it wasnt for the demonstrations. Past that it made international headlines for the next 6 weeks. Thats how you raise some awareness. In a month it will be some other scandal and this process will repeat itself until enough people get out there and say theyre tired of it, and they arent going to take it anymore.

lycopodium123 wrote: »

The reason no-one is out protesting is because whatever protests or arguments are made will fall on deaf ears. Who are we hoping will "listen to" and "help" us - the government?!!! It's exactly because of this shower of ***** that people have given up.
I would gladly get out and march, protest, scream n shout every weekend to get the country sorted but I know that won't help and everyone I know feels the same. How are we supposed to expect the f*ckers who have robbed the country blind and left us in this mess and gotten away with it to listen to us for a start and then act in an honourable manner, in the interest of everyone in the country rather than just the big guns when this is "the norm"?!
I think everyone who has their bags packed has the right idea, why would anyone in their right mind choose to live in a country so corrupt, where the government is SCREWING everyone over and getting away with it? With a "health care system" that wouldn't be found in a 3rd world country, with a "leader" who looks like a well known disney character - and doesn't act far from it either?! with a minister for health who is morbidly obese and a vice-"leader" who doesn't understand what SHE is saying most of the time, let alone those around her?
and the very worst part of it all is that the f*ckers will probably get in again!!!!
anyone who can get out should do it as fast as they can!

these are the kind of sad posts i cant bear to read anymore. The Irish people need a Win soon before they forget what a democracy is.

Copodium you sound so defeated but what have you fought for, yet?

Sir Oxman

thebman wrote: »

We have a democracy, all we have to do is elect people that will reform, we don't have to revolt.

Revolution leads to instability, nothing scares away investment from Ireland like a bunch of paddies with their underwear in a twist because people outside Ireland rarely take the time to actually look at our problems, they'll just see there are lots of problems and move on to somewhere with less problems.

We should just elect the right people but where the hell are they? I could stand for election but given I have no background in politics, I'm unlikely to get elected especially since I can't do the necessary favors for the local GAA club. The reality is most Irish people are content letting the politicians have their way so they can go ask for the odd favor they aren't due when they need it so the politician can have their vote. Then they'll say they did good work for the community and it justifies the politicians self-interest to themselves since they were acting in self-interest when they asked for the favor they weren't due either.

The reality seems to be that parish pump politics killed Irish politics and nobody wants a revolution because that seems a bit extreme.

The chickens are coming home to roost.
Irish people are their own worst enemies - it is obvious the political system needs to be reformed from top to bottom but how the hell do you start considering a vast swathe of voters and nearly every representative are involved in this sham of a democracy?

It just seems impossible that reform will ever take place. Ever.

DeVore

Can a general election be forced by the populace?


if yes, then lets do it.

if no, then we are all wasting our fingertips for another couple of years.


DeV.

dresden8

DeVore wrote: »

Can a general election be forced by the populace?


if yes, then lets do it.

if no, then we are all wasting our fingertips for another couple of years.


DeV.

No to Lisbon may not work.

But it might.

Last chance before 2012.

Overheal

DeVore wrote: »

Can a general election be forced by the populace?


if yes, then lets do it.

if no, then we are all wasting our fingertips for another couple of years.


DeV.

I imagine it wouldn't be easy to do, but if the alternative is waiting around while things get worse for the next few years, what have you to lose by organising demonstrations and protests, or petitions for an emergency GE. There must be something in your constitution/law for just such an event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_of_no_confidence

DeVore

dresden8 wrote: »

No to Lisbon may not work.

But it might.

Last chance before 2012.

Seriously dude, I'm not exactly pro-Yes but thats about the most retarded reason for voting No.

Punish them, not yourself (and us too).

DeV.

dresden8

DeVore wrote: »

Seriously dude, I'm not exactly pro-Yes but thats about the most retarded reason for voting No.

Punish them, not yourself (and us too).

DeV.

FF back benchers will hang on for an elusive recovery. The greens are spineless scum.

Then your only other option is to shoot a FF politician and make them lose their majority.

There is nothing you can do in the meantime.

People will not march.

Even if they do, marches achieve nothing.

Remember this next saturday when Cowen's victory in the Lisbon vote herald's a return to FF's winning ways.

He will be carried shoulder high be some very burly FF'ers out of the RDS. A marvellous personal victory, and also a victory for FF's policy's of the last 12 years.

On your head be it.

So how much do you want to pump into NAMA?

edanto

dresden8 wrote: »

No to Lisbon may not work.

But it might.
.

A No to Lisbon only..... ooops wrong thread. Scratch that.

How to force an election? Find Green Party people, councillors, members, supporters... and express your anger with what the government are doing and get them to walk away.

In my case, I'm particularly p1ssed off with NAMA and this "privatise profit socialise losses" mentality that has crept up while we were reeling from the over-valued imaginary assets crisis (I prefer that name than 'credit crunch', as it's a bit more meaningful)..... anyways the way that NAMA is being set up is disgraceful (here are my reasons) and I think that if we are able to influence the Greens enough they will pull the plug and we will get a changing of the guard. As it happens, I'd like the Greens to be in the next government, but that's by the by - I want FF out.

Right now, the only way to force an election is to convince the voting members of the Greens of the strength of your arguments.

Lisbon is a sideshow compared with this. On NAMA, we stand to lose an entire years tax take just to save the necks of the bankers and their investors. How long will that take us to pay back?

dresden8

FF need to get 54 billion at least to their mates before their inevitable (temporary) demise.

Don't give it to them!

When somebody is lying and stealing from you do not give them what they want.

Basic fncking rule

Overheal

DeVore wrote: »

Seriously dude, I'm not exactly pro-Yes but thats about the most retarded reason for voting No.

Punish them, not yourself (and us too).

DeV.

Lisbon has no effect on me at all and I don't care about it. I also think its separate from the issue. This isn't about whether Ireland decides yes or no on lisbon - in either event, Ireland will still be left with an ineffectual government who cant find the money to keep a childrens hospital running while its giving millions of euro in perks to itself, execs, and other similar abuses.

thebman

dresden8 wrote: »

FF need to get 54 billion at least to their mates before their inevitable (temporary) demise.

Don't give it to them!

When somebody is lying and stealing from you do not give them what they want.

Basic fncking rule

Yeah well the green vote on it is the best bet to stop that.

Using Lisbon to do it or encouraging others to is just sticking two fingers up to the rest of the country and the rest of Europe who want to know if we want Lisbon passed not if FF are doing a good job.

And even if FF are holding Cowen up, FG will be doing the same for Kenny, it has cross party support except for SF and Socialist Parties so they can all claim credit leading to no difference.

SLUSK

The smart people should leave the country. Why hang around and try to save a failed state?

Sleepy

Is the best means of taking down the government to join the greens en-masse and force a party vote in favour of withdrawing from the coallition?

It'd ruin the Green Party, but rather them than Ireland tbh.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

axer

Vegeta wrote: »

Because we're as useless as the shower who govern us.

This is exactly the reason why.

Irish people are useless. This is why we should be integrating as much as possible into the EU. We need someone externally to come in and shake up this country.

DoireNod

axer wrote: »

Irish people are useless. This is why we should be integrating as much as possible into the EU. We need someone externally to come in and shake up this country.

We're not useless. We are capable of much more, we just need to get off our asses and make it happen.

I think it's a cop-out to say that we 'need someone externally to come in and shake up this country'.

axer

DoireNod wrote: »

We are capable of much more, we just need to get off our asses and make it happen.

Ok yes, we are just lazy then and don't really care (actually that makes us useless). "Ah, sure it'll be grand" sums up this country.

DoireNod wrote: »

I think it's a cop-out to say that we 'need someone externally to come in and shake up this country'.

Not a cop-out, just reality. I wish we could do it ourselves but I cannot see us changing any time soon.

anonymous_joe

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There's a bit of truth in that...

I think a major factor tbh is that a lot of the intelligent, middle-class and university-educated people aren't too badly off yet.

They're less likely to be builders, etc, and unless you're a solicitor or architect/engineer you could very well have escaped the worst of the recession so far.

Also, there's a sense that this government is dead already. That's a problem. They're dying certainly, but people are now comfortable in the knowledge of that, and waiting for them to go.

Slugs

dan_d wrote: »

Mike65 - in answer to your question "to what end"....the longer we stand around and let this happen, the worse it's going to get AND the more it's going to continue. They parrot around that's it's a "disgrace" and terrible, and the media are fed line after line after line about how things have to change. There are reports and investigations, and people in front of committees...and at the end of it all, we move on to the next scandal next week. This time 20-30 years ago, this was going on (witness Charlie Haughey, Ray Burke.... how many more of them are there?) and it's still going on. Except now it's more widespread. And even more corrupt.

A certain story sticks in my head - can't remember the name of the developer involved or what exactly the numbers were, but the gist of it was that in the last 6 years a certain developer (I believe) sold his share in a quarry to an Eastern European investor. The payment of many million, was dropped IN CASH in a graveyard across the street from his house in the middle of the night. Whereupon, he went over, picked it up and went on his merry way.
Our tax money is bailing out that. What the hell????I mean, where do you even BEGIN with pointing out what's wrong with that? And worse - the complete piece of slime that did this claimed he "didn't see anything unusual with that way of making a payment" and EXPECTED US TO BELIEVE THAT!!!!!!

The problem is that Irish people are excellent at whinging and moaning and talking things to death, while trying to outdo their neighbour....we NEVER actually do anything about the situation. We've got nice and complacent over the last 10 years, and now we're too lazy to get up and call a halt to this disgraceful behaviour. We put those politicians in their positions, we can get rid of them, no matter what they say.

I don't know if you've ever heard the saying " Evil prevails when good men fail to act". It's very true, and extremely apt in this country at this point in time. I am raging. I would love to go out and do something about this, rather than just leave, which is all I can see as an option right now. But the protests that are going on are just not about the right things.(as in, Lisbon, no pension levy etc, etc). Some cuts we have to live with - the money is just not there anymore. Why aren't we on the streets in front of the dail every single week we see headlines like we did today??Why don't we make it crystal clear that we will NOT tolerate any more of the corruption that goes on in the back-slapping boys club of politicians and Irish developers?

Sorry about the rant, but it makes me so angry.

The Above quote resonates my sentiments exactly. The Irish F*cked up, there is no other way about it. Gone are the days where you will see De Valera or Collins, people with a genuine interest in this country, taking the seats in government. All you will see are mean who are quite content to do everything to line their own pockets. I'm out, for the very simple reason, we're ****ed.

You don't see bankers being hauled into courtrooms and being interrogated by a commitee who want justification, you're seeing bankers entering buildings and casually answer questions. And that's the problem. No one is addressing the main problems. We shouldn't be asking what happened, we should be asking Who f*cked us over.

Realistically there is no hope for Ireland, not in the current state. Brian Cowen should be out. Enda Kenny should be out. Brian Lenihan should be out. Bertie Ahern should be hung, as well as his entire cabinet. Judges should be out, bankers should be jailed, and instead of them being bailed out, your mortgages should be payed off rather then these STUPID F*CKING DIRTY DEALING Landowners who f*cked the system and f*cked you over.

There should be revolution, there should be change, there should be a new government full of people who genuinely f*cking care about this country, and none of this nepotistic bullsh*t we have at the moment. But you're not going to get that, because the university educated are coming out of education and working in a system that is flawed, and have never known any other way, nor will know any other way.

If you've a problem with the obscenity in the above post, then get over it There is no other way to express the anger I have with this country, it's government and it's people.

Overheal

SLUSK wrote: »

The smart people should leave the country. Why hang around and try to save a failed state?

Theres the door ---->

I'm not even going to waste my hate on you.

Sir Oxman

Overheal wrote: »

Theres the door ---->

I'm not even going to waste my hate on you.

You'd want to cop your mouth on - you don't even have to live here.

Overheal

gambiaman wrote: »

You'd want to cop your mouth on - you don't even have to live here.

True. Because despite repeated attempts to get Irish citizenship I was frequently declined. So you have me pegged!

Nobody HAS to live anywhere. Where the hell do you get your ideas?

Sir Oxman

Overheal wrote: »

True. Because despite repeated attempts to get Irish citizenship I was frequently declined. So you have me pegged!

Nobody HAS to live anywhere. Where the hell do you get your ideas?

So why berate the poster above?

PS Apologies if I came across as rude btw.

Sir Oxman

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0927/thisweek_av.html

Everyone should listen to Our Dear Leader on RTE Radio 1 today - this man is the 'leader' of my country and he is telling me to trust him and his gang with over 54 billion euros of our money when he defines honorable as Rody Molloy.
Richard Crowley, the interviewer, is about the only one in RTE/-FF that is doing his job.

If voting No to Lisbon results in the swift removal of this gang of thieves from this country, Vote No and feck the lunatics who say you shouldn't - the EU will still be there next Saturday and the SAturday after that ad finitum, hopefully this idiot Clowen and the criminals in FF will be forced out.

asdasd

our mortgages should be payed off rather then these STUPID F*CKING DIRTY DEALING Landowners who f*cked the system and f*cked you over. .

Look, here's the real truth: the reposnsibility for the mess Ireland is now in lies with the people who are now mouthing off the most. I dont blame FF, but I didnt buy a house. FF didnt force me to buy a house.

The developers - they built more houses during the boom - and their livelhoods dependned on the boom continuing? Were they corrupt? No. They believed their own nonsense. That is why they are bankrupt. Other people who believed the same nonsense were the people who bought houses. Has the recent history been expunged? Was I not in dinner parties explaining why I was renting "at my age" to people who over-mortgaged themselves to the hilt; holding my tongue on how they were impovrishing themselves, and the country a mere two years ago? Or was that a dream?

So what are the angry "tax-payers" in negative equity going to complain about, exactly. Those who are single, and renting can leave. The rest of youse are stuck, and the responsibility lies with yourself. so you bought your housing, pay for it.

( NAMA, by the way is another boondangle which benefits the house owner rather than the buyer).

honesty101

I am one of these educated middle class individuals who is not going to take it lying down. I am attempting to organise a rolling protest that will take place each day outside Dail Eireann while it is in session until the final vote is taken on Nama. Given that the Green Convention is on the 10th there is not much time.
Also, the Dail does not resume until Tuesday the 6th at 14.30. I (from Cork) will be standing outside the Dail from 12.00. People, a lot of you talk the talk but will you be there to stand alongside me. My wife asks 'why you?' The simple answer is if I don't do it we will still be waiting, Nama will happen and we then can only blame ourselves.
It is dead right what the original poster says, where are the patriots gone? Again, I said the same thing to my wife and she says I am being over dramatic! We have nothing to lose and everything to gain, but who, on the day, will actually get up off their asses and stand with us?
It might well be embarrassing for the people who stand their at the start but the crowds do need to be enormous and we so need to get media interest for this to have any hope. We can only hope to influence the greens. FF are too arrogant to care!
I welcome all queries on this protest to namagate@gmail.com
I promise I am not a radical and have never done anything like this before but enough is enough!!

Fighting Irish

Maybe most intelligent people didn't blow all their money and went for jobs with security. They might be getting a pay cut but for them its not that bad because they never went over board so their not in total ****

Omnipresence

I think it's because we don't have a voice or a lobby group representing us - which is rather socking - every other majority and minority group have some organisation fighting thier corner - except us ... by 'us' I mean the PAYE worker.....

vitners, farmers, business, civil servants, teachers, nurses, unions etc.. all have powerful voices - where is ours ??? - and how do we go about setting up one

It would certainly be the most powerful voice in ireland - if it just spoke up !!


.... so how do we do it ...

IRLConor

I'm university-educated, probably best described as middle class (although I reject describing people as being "X class" as an outdated notion) and I'll leave it up to ye to decide whether I'm intelligent or not.

Why am I not in revolt? A couple of reasons:

1. It would cost me dearly. Revolt and instability in Ireland will delay our economic recovery. No-one wants to invest in an unstable state. Physical protest will waste a ton of money in policing and (if it takes a violent turn) clean-up/insurance/repair. In addition, long term unrest is as likely to result in draconian laws infringing on our civil liberties as it is to change the government.
2. It would be ineffectual. I honestly believe that the current politicians in government are well aware that they are not liked and that there's a very good chance that a majority want them out. Telling them something they already know is a waste of my time, I have better things to be doing than that.
3. It would be hijacked. The far right, the far left and all the other crazies from the dusty corners of the political spectrum would benefit (and are benefiting) from any upheavals. If there's one thing I fear more than Irish politicians, it's Irish politicians with dodgy politics!

So, how do I think we can force an election? Do you have any of the following representing you in your constituency?

• FF backbenchers (preferably ones which were the second or third FF seat)
• Green Party TDs
• Independent/former PD who supports the government.

If so, talk to them and make it clear to them that their political career depends on them acting against the government at the earliest possible opportunity. Politics in Ireland is very local, use it if you can.

I don't think voting against Lisbon will bring down the government, it didn't do it the last time, why would it do it this time? Cast your vote based on the Treaty itself, long term that's the most sensible option.