National Postcodes to be introduced

oscarBravo

yuloni wrote: »

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You can think that to your heart's content, but from my conversations with my dispatcher friend, the ability to have someone whose elderly parent is having heart failure say "my eircode is A65 F4E2" rather than "I'm in Breaffy - no, not the one outside Castlebar, the one outside Ballina - half a mile past the school there's a crossroads, go through that and take the second right, although it looks like the first right because you can easily miss the first one... no, hang on, I mean left, the second left, then you'll pass a white cottage with a blue Avensis and come to a tee junction..." will save lives.

yuloni

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oscarBravo

yuloni wrote: »

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That's because the telcos and the ECAS provider aren't juggling resuscitation instructions, trying to elicit directions, and trying to convey those directions over a Tetra radio to a hopelessly lost ambulance. They forward the call to the dispatcher, and it's not their problem anymore.

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Sure - in the eircodes-are-the-worst-thing-in-the-history-of-everything-ever fantasy that some people have painted here, nobody is ever going to remember their postcode, because - as we all know - it's utterly beyond the realms of credibility that anyone anywhere on the planet knows their own or their parents' postal code.

dr.fuzzenstein

ukoda wrote: »

But he's point was right. A postcode is not the best thing to rely on when calling emergency services when out and about. There's other better ways of doing that

I want to address this as one of the main points of the anti Eircode brigade.
One of their arguments was "OMG, what if someone collapses in a field with NO Eircode! People will DIE!"
Well, what will happen if you collapse in a field in Germany or the UK?
Do you frantically wonder "Jaysus, what postcode does this field have?"
No! You will say "I was walking past Littlevillage, up the walkway towards Somethinghill when I tripped over and broke my leg"
Will the ambulance service say "I'm sorry, we can't locate you without a postcode", they will ask for a few more directions or maybe (well, I would) ask you to drop a pin on Google maps and text that to them.
A side point on that:
You think this is childsplay. I can guarantee you that 70% of the general population couldn't do that to literally save their lives. So that's the "Just use your Sat Nav and coordinates" argument out the window for most people.
Because whether it's Croagh Patrick, Ben Nevis or the Zugspitze, the LAST thing ANYONE will ask is your friggin' postcode.
So the "Babies Will Die!" argument is bullsh*t and out the window.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

Perhaps the casualty will take a break from having heart failure to rummage around for the letter eircode sent them so you can relay it on?

You seem to think they'll have time to rummage around their phone to generate a loc8code and then call it back to the dispatcher. No chance. Will they remember their postcode? Probably.

Telcos seem to have more of an issue with the fact it's not mandatory than anything else, I didn't see them say there's a better postcode option

yuloni

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oscarBravo

yuloni wrote: »

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I'm curious - did you stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALA" while you posted that?

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

Both of you backing up what I said. The purported support from the Emergency Services for eircode (as seen on Primetime and constantly trumpeted by Crapita)... is invalid

Thank you

You support eircode, finally, thanks for coming around to my view point

dr.fuzzenstein

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm curious - did you stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALA" while you posted that?

Yes he did. I could hear it.
Let's reiterate for the slower children:
Either Eircode will lead emergency services directly to the door, or they will be irrelevant for people who have accidents in the arse of nowhere.
So we're even better off than Germany where the PLZ describes a general area, but in Sean, The Bog hole, Co Nowhere Ireland, thsyee a godsend.
The anti brigade is just desperately grasping at ever thinner straws as one by one their flimsy straw men are knocked over.

dr.fuzzenstein

yuloni wrote: »

No, I was actually listening to Thin Lizzy if that means anything

Quite frankly I think you've been drinking milk from the rusty bucket again.

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

Here lads, I don't get paid to post here and I've a real job to go to in the morning so I'll finish for tonight

Again, eircode is of no benefit to the emergency services... despite us being told by Capita and various civil servants that the emergency services will be one of the biggest beneficiaries of it. So that's another selling point rendered moot. What other selling points are left?


Also, I think I'll thank all your posts from now on. It's getting a little embarrassing seeing the same 3 amigos thanking each others posts

It will be of benefit for when people need emergency services to their house, which is the majority of calls.

I actually fully agree with you that eircode is no use to emergency services for call outs to non addreses, but then neither is Loc8code or GoCode or anything that involves a code. We have the technology to send a callers geo coordinates to the emergency call centre directly. The need for any code is redundant and a waste of time. The phone itself already has the location of the caller and the technology to transmit that location automatically exists.

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

Eircode are licenced to operate the code on contract, I was aware that they will be paid to do this for a period of ten years, operating the code does not necessarily mean that they own the revenue, it could be owned by the state. I don't know, im asking if anyone can confirm this or is it an assumption?

I would say that Eircode are not licensed to operate the code on contract. The Postcode Management Licence Holder is Capita Ireland. In effect, there is no consortium or grouping of companies licensed to manage the code - there's just one. The holder would control and manage the revenues that come into the company (Eircode) but likely would have to be done on an open-book basis with the State.

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would imagine (therefore I do not know because it is secret) it will be like a PPP contact where the state takes the risk and the private part gets to keep the profit. Having read some of the PPP contracts, the state agrees to guaranty the revenue if the takings are lower than an expexted certain limit. The private partner is not going to lose out, but the state will.

The private company more often that not does take the risk. Sometimes, there are initial costs for set-up that are met by the State. (in the postcode's case, paying for design, new database, paying for state-owned IP such as OSI/An Post for GeoDirectory - and getting govt database records coded - this ensures IP starts and remains with the State).

There isn't always a guarantee of revenues/profits. It is up to the private contractor to run the business and make a profit. If they don't, that's their problem. (again in postcode's case, if business sector in Ireland just shrugs its shoulders at eircode and doesn't license it, then revenue is hit for the licence holder.)

More often than not, if licence holders don't hit certain performance targets then they could lose the licence at a particular review point.

Or they may not get it renewed for whatever reason, and the whole infrastructure/resources/facilities is transferred to the new licence holder. A relatively recent example of this was the company that first won the NCT contract, lost out at time of renewal of licence, and everything was transferred to new licensee.

Profit is often capped at a certain level in these kind of public/private contracts or licence holders. Thereafter, a profit-sharing or gain-sharing mechanism could be used. I suspect this was a later addition to public contracts in general here following the debacle over the West-Link toll bridge.

I know it's easy to assume that private contractors win out every time on public contracts, but they don't - some get burnt quite badly.

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

It will be of benefit for when people need emergency services to their house, which is the majority of calls.

I actually fully agree with you that eircode is no use to emergency services for call outs to non addreses, but then neither is Loc8code or GoCode or anything that involves a code. We have the technology to send a callers geo coordinates to the emergency call centre directly. The need for any code is redundant and a waste of time. The phone itself already has the location of the caller and the technology to transmit that location automatically exists.

Bit puzzled with your statement that "eircode is no use to emergency services for non-addresses, but then neither is Loc8code or GoCode or anything that involves a code."

How would you know this already if it hasn't been tried? Eircode doesn't have the function to be used as a non-address code, the other location codes do. When you say "we have the technology" to send coordinates - do you mean this system is already in place and is being used, or is this something that will happen in the future - yet to be tried/tested?

Bayberry

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

How would you know this already if it hasn't been tried? Eircode doesn't have the function to be used as a non-address code, the other location codes do. When you say "we have the technology" to send coordinates - do you mean this system is already in place and is being used, or is this something that will happen in the future - yet to be tried/tested?

It's called E112. They've had E911 in the US for a long time (the telecoms providers love it, because they get to charge users a $1 a month for the service, and say that it's the guvmints fault), but it seems to be taking a lot longer to happen in Europe. In the US case, a call to 911 from a landline will use caller ID to get the location of the caller(*). Calls to 911 from a "cell" phone will use GPS, if the handset has a GPS, or tower triangualation if it doesn't, so that emergency services can be sent to the callers location, even if the caller doesn't know where they are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/112_(emergency_telephone_number)#E112
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_9-1-1

*True story: 10 years ago I was visiting a friend in Philadelphia. She was calling her sister in North Carolina, which is in the 919 area code. She accidentally dialled 911 instead of 1 919, and immediately hung up. There was a cop car at the door within 2 minutes, and they insisted on coming inside and making sure that there wasn't anyone being held hostage in the house being threatened.

ukoda

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Bit puzzled with your statement that "eircode is no use to emergency services for non-addresses, but then neither is Loc8code or GoCode or anything that involves a code."

How would you know this already if it hasn't been tried? Eircode doesn't have the function to be used as a non-address code, the other location codes do. When you say "we have the technology" to send coordinates - do you mean this system is already in place and is being used, or is this something that will happen in the future - yet to be tried/tested?

Loc8code had been around for 5 years. If it's the solution that's going to save countless lives why is no one using it? Why isn't it being promoted everywhere by all the emergency services? can anyone actually tell me if, in 5 years, it has ever been used for an accident report?

And as the other poster pointed out, we have tried and tested technology that can pinpoint a callers location and send it to the operaters at 112/999. We do not need people to generate postcodes for their accident. It is completely redundant and unnecessary.

a65b2cd

The 2013 OSi annual report states that they made a profit of 147,000 euro in 2013 on their 49% share in GeoDirectory. The real money may already have been made in the public sector data matching which should ensure regular use of Eircodes.

An unknown is how GeoDirectory will respond to Eircode. Will they drop their prices and compete for the same market? It will be easy to add Eircode to GeoDirectory.

dr.fuzzenstein

yuloni wrote: »

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Let's just have a look at that sentence. Let it sink in, mull it over and try not to spit your porridge on the screen and keyboard with laughter.
Yes if you live somewhere like Name, Town, 12 Street, County.
If you live somewhere like Boghole, Co. Nowhere, erm no. I can vouch for that from bitter experience.
In that case the fine courier companies of Ireland (In fact they're so fine that a lot of online business in the UK refuse to deliver here due to their incompetence and greed) will ring the supplied number and get directions either drive back to the depot and fcuk the parcel in a corner and wait till you ring 2 weeks later wondering where your stuff is (Oh yeah, it's been here in the depot, we busted our balls trying to contact you, yeah right), deliver it to a random shop that may or may not be in your county or throw it in a hedge and pretend they've never heard of you when you ring 2 weeks later.
I have had all my stuff delivered to my work address for the last 10 years, because otherwise it will either take 2 weeks or it will just disappear.
Now that the courier has a code that will lead him to my door, there is a slim chance i might get stuff delivered to my door and it might only take a week.
And if I ever have a stroke from getting angry at delivery drivers, I can now give the ambulance my Eircode and hey presto! They arrive at my door.
Now how is that not great?
I bet if I said water was good stuff for the human body "some" people would disagree with me too. BTW: The sky is blue.

dr.fuzzenstein

OK, hands up then, when collapsing with a heart attack or stroke at home in the middle of nowhere, who would refuse to give their Eircode to the emergency services? If you would, it was nice knowing you.

ukoda

a65b2cd wrote: »

The 2013 OSi annual report states that they made a profit of 147,000 euro in 2013 on their 49% share in GeoDirectory. The real money may already have been made in the public sector data matching which should ensure regular use of Eircodes.

An unknown is how GeoDirectory will respond to Eircode. Will they drop their prices and compete for the same market? It will be easy to add Eircode to GeoDirectory.

thats interesting actually, i mean what use is the GeoDirectory now to anyone? ECAD is GeoDirectory plus Eircode, why would anyone buy the GeoDirectory now as opposed to the ECAD?

oscarBravo

yuloni wrote: »

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Ah, the old "anyone who disagrees with me must by definition be a paid shill" argument.

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murpho999

Why are people going on about the emergency services.

Eircodes are primarily for delivery addresses with the benefit of being able to assist emergency services in some cases.

So if someone has an emergency at home, knows their Eircode they can use it and it will speed up the process.

However, don't forget in most cases where someone is in need of an ambulance it's usually not the victim making the call so someone else may make the call that does know the eircode.
Also, if the eircode is not known then you just revert to the address.

How do people think people manage in other countries with postcodes? They don't always know the postcode of the are they are in either.

People going on about locations like roads etc are just expecting too much.

Also, found the RTE piece to be shoddy at best. Showing LOC8 all sad about not tendering and the majority of people saying it will be good, so what was the issue?

murpho999

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

OK, hands up then, when collapsing with a heart attack or stroke at home in the middle of nowhere, who would refuse to give their Eircode to the emergency services? If you would, it was nice knowing you.

Well you know the dispatcher could then pass his eircode on to his marketing friends and then before you know it the caller and his household are inundated with targeted advertising for health insurance, pacemakers, defibrillator kits and stents.

Kalyke

murpho999 wrote: »

Well you know the dispatcher could then pass his eircode on to his marketing friends and then before you know it the caller and his household are inundated with targeted advertising for health insurance, pacemakers, defibrillator kits and stents.

Or undertakers....

ukoda

murpho999 wrote: »

Well you know the dispatcher could then pass his eircode on to his marketing friends and then before you know it the caller and his household are inundated with targeted advertising for health insurance, pacemakers, defibrillator kits and stents.

They can pass the address on now. What's your point? Or are you just making out that dispatchers are dishonest and that everyone who touches an eircode is going to treat it maliciously.

MBSnr

ukoda wrote: »

They can pass the address on now. What's your point? Or are you just making out that dispatchers are dishonest and that everyone who touches an eircode is going to treat it maliciously.

Think he was taking the.....

ukoda

MBSnr wrote: »

Think he was taking the.....

It's hard to know on this thread! people do tend to claim the most ridiculous of things. If he is taking the proverbial then apologies.

murpho999

ukoda wrote: »

They can pass the address on now. What's your point? Or are you just making out that dispatchers are dishonest and that everyone who touches an eircode is going to treat it maliciously.

I think your sarcasm detector is broken.

This thread has been full of people claiming that Eircode will breach your privacy as once your eircode is used on-line then your household will be flooded with targeted marketing.

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

The "concerns" are from a small minority (although they are very vocal) that have a vested interest in another code or jumping on the everything the government does is wrong bandwagon

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ah, the old "anyone who disagrees with me must by definition be a paid shill" argument.

I notice you're not quite as sensitive when eircode supporters stoop to the same tactic.