National Postcodes to be introduced

antoinolachtnai

jetpack101 wrote: »

I agree ... but on the flip side, we could be going around in circles constantly putting up barriers and the end result is what we have now...... no post code or easy way to navigate to a location.

While I do think that giving the government full access to the code could secure a system, it could be a recipe for disaster. You can be pretty sure that someone somewhere in the government departments will want to put there stamp on it and in the process completely mess up the system.

I am not just urging care about the private sector plans.

The government code, as envisaged, also has serious intellectual property issues.

Sysmod

I just tried that today.

From Google maps I think my GPS coordinates are (52.69295, -6.218512)

I could see my house using Loc8 (looks like the OSI maps) and got SMB-24-NL9

The GO map was very smudgy (like Google) and I could not even find our hill lane on it!
As close as I can get it is R2L DDXF

Now is there any site where I can plug these two different codes in and get the distance between them and directions :-)

mackerski

jetpack101 wrote: »

Also take the forum we are discussing this on. The internet and all it has to offer is a wonderful thing and not a government official in site

I agree with your analogy, but not your conclusion. The Internet was designed and, as already mentioned, set free. It drifted unnoticed for a long while, during which time commercial bodies set up proprietary networks that became quite popular due to user-friendly (for the times) software and an unthreatening walled garden. I'm referring to companies like Compuserve and America Online, which the younger folk here, if they've heard of them, may believe to have been normal ISPs from the start, rather than having had to reinvent themselves as such once the market voted with its feet for Internet technology.

The Internet prevailed because it was open and standards-based and because nobody could stop you from using it in novel and unexpected ways. In particular, nobody charged anybody for using the underlying technologies, even if they were doing so commercially or in bulk.

I've been careful to exclude any issue of government control from the above, because as Antoin has pointed out, the government isn't so far proposing an unencumbered postcode either.

jetpack101

Del2005 wrote: »

The US government invented the internet and then let it run free, but now they are trying to take control back.

The US gov invented a communications tool to be used by the military.

This was later changed and adapted to work over all networks by a collage then later the World wide web was invented or created by Tim Berners-Lee.

What the US government started with was clunky and could only be used by very highly Trained individuals.

It was only after the private sector got to it did it become a useful tool.

mackerski

jetpack101 wrote: »

It was only after the private sector got to it did it become a useful tool.

On the contrary - it was only after it had become a useful tool that the private sector got to it. They brought much to enhance the Internet, and indeed, much to drag it down to their level (cough, Flash, cough).

My point being that some things only deliver their full potential when you give them away. The private sector was never going to create anything like the Internet as we know it. They had to see it work first and (in many cases) swallow the harsh reality that it was better than what they had come up with.

This is a dilemma, because it's hard to find somebody to fund stuff that's both expensive and has to be given away. Nobody said this stuff was easy.

Carawaystick

jetpack101 wrote: »

What the US government started with was clunky and could only be used by very highly Trained individuals.

It was only after the private sector got to it did it become a useful tool.

I didn't think CERN was the private sector, who Tim Lee worked for creating the www

recedite

The cheapest and best outcome for the taxpayer is probably for the government to buy out the most successful privately developed postcode, and then set it free.

mackerski

recedite wrote: »

The cheapest and best outcome for the taxpayer is probably for the government to buy out the most successful privately developed postcode, and then set it free.

But how do you measure success? Consumer uptake? Consumers are not likely to value the same things the government has on its shopping list.

Empire o de Sun

Do we need a code to find a needle in a field?

Post codes do not need to be complicated. Most countries do with a 4 or 5 digit code.

Empire o de Sun

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Do we need a code to find a needle in a field?

Post codes do not need to be complicated. Most countries do with a 4 or 5 digit code.

Depends whether you want to find the address or just the area!

esquilax

Deleted User wrote: »

Depends whether you want to find the address or just the area!

What surprises me about this thread, or the part of it I've been arsed to read through (roughly the latter half) is that nobody has considered that the primary purpose of a postcode is to facilitate the automatic sorting of post - the purpose for which postcodes existed in many parts of the world before satellite navigation was even being considered as a concept.

After the UK created their postcode system, the Royal Mail realised that it was no longer fit for its primary purpose and a second, completely separate postcode system was created (the Mailsort system). This is the mysterious number that often appears on the envelope of utility bills and other post from bulk senders in the UK.

They receive a large discount for supplying their mail to Royal mail sorted via this system. There is no discount whatsoever for sorting it alphanumerically by the actual public postcode, which along with a house number can deliver the kind of directions to someone's front door that everyone seems to be looking for from any Irish system.

This is a nice feature by all means, but consider how often you want your sat nav unit to bring you to unfamiliar address, versus how often you receive a letter in the post.

I just hope the developers of the Go and Loc8 systems spent as much time consulting with An Post as they evidently have with makers of sat nav units because the government will ultimately chose a postcode system that helps deliver post under the system currently in place. A grid reference, or any alphanumeric recoding of a grid reference, doesn't.

esquilax

esquilax wrote: »

What surprises me about this thread, or the part of it I've been arsed to read through (roughly the latter half) is that nobody has considered that the primary purpose of a postcode is to facilitate the automatic sorting of post - the purpose for which postcodes existed in many parts of the world before satellite navigation was even being considered as a concept..

You're correct in saying that a postcode is for sorting mail. This thread has expanded into (precisly) locating addresses for the delivery of "stuff", any logistics company that uses any of the systems described here would still have to overlay their distribution network onto it to determine which depot and which vehicle will do the delivery.

recedite

mackerski wrote: »

But how do you measure success? Consumer uptake? Consumers are not likely to value the same things the government has on its shopping list.

Politicians value popularity above all else, so consumer uptake would seem to be a good all round measure of success.
Apparently Minister Ryan wants a location code superimposed on top of an area code. The politicians fear that consumers will resist an abstract code, and they think recognisable prefixes are necessary, whether relating to a city as with the UK postcodes, or the county as with our vehicle number plates.
IMO politicians usually underestimate the man in the street, whereas the man in the street tends to overestimate the capabilities of politicians.

I think An Post do already have a proprietary automated mail sorting code which is not released to the general public. Perhaps we should be referring here to a "location code" rather than a "postcode", bearing in mind the trend towards liberalisation of postal services.

spacetweek

There are a couple of things to keep in mind here. Firstly, the traditional Postcode systems that every other country has does not in fact allow for location of obscure addresses especially when they're in the middle of nowhere - a key concern of many posters here (and myself). The mental image of the ambulance driving up and down country lanes searching for the house with the guy having a heart attack springs to mind. I have a doc from work that lists the number of digits in the postcodes of every country that has one. It ranges from 4 digits in Australia (which gives 264 km2/code in Western Australia) to 4 digits in Liechtenstein (which gives 4 acres/code). Neither of these are granular enough to find a bungalow in a rural area.

In response to this you have the satnavs and other adhoc solutions that are adjuncts to the postcode system.

In Ireland, we're going to need to understand that a postcode system that combines the two (sorting mail easier and finding specific spots in the countryside) would undoubtedly result in a long code which wouldn't be memorisable and wouldn't catch on. There's no way to resolve this: if the code is short, it's easy to remember and catches on quick, but doesn't give detailed location info for rural areas; and if it's long, it has detailed info but is too long to memorize and many people won't play ball. If any kind of significant minority doesn't participate, it makes it harder for everyone else.

antoinolachtnai

No, you can resolve this.

A 5-digit code can bring you down to around 60 houses (the CSO small areas).

This is easily memorable, like the German or American code.

An optional further digit gives a roadway within the postcode area.

An optional further two digits gives the number of the house, or in rural areas, the number of tens of meters along the road that the house entrance is located. So:

12345-678

12345 is for the general area, dividing the company into around 20,000 areas.

The 6 is for the road.

78 specifies exactly where on the road the house or entrance is.

You might not bother surveying out beyond the first five digits for city addresses where there is already a street name and number.

You can go as far as people want - i.e., if people only want to use the general code, they can. They can also specify the street, if they wish, or they can go down to a very fine degree of 'granularity'.

mackerski

spacetweek wrote: »

In Ireland, we're going to need to understand that a postcode system that combines the two (sorting mail easier and finding specific spots in the countryside) would undoubtedly result in a long code which wouldn't be memorisable and wouldn't catch on. There's no way to resolve this: if the code is short, it's easy to remember and catches on quick, but doesn't give detailed location info for rural areas; and if it's long, it has detailed info but is too long to memorize and many people won't play ball. If any kind of significant minority doesn't participate, it makes it harder for everyone else.

There is a way to resolve it, but one that can cause implementation problems. The solution is to have house numbers everywhere and (optionally) road names. Basically, you keep the postcode manageably short, but require an additional address portion to be known. Even with a very fine-grained postcode like the UK one or that proposed here, you still need something more than the postcode for a full address match. Without house numbers, that something would in Ireland often need to be "The Murphy household, that's young Murphy, not his parents who live 1km further along".

Having numbers and road names makes for simpler addresses, but can lead to agro since road names are often "imposed" in ways that make locals resistant to them. This seems to have happened in NI when postcodes were introduced, and road names with them.

But you can have property numbering without road names. In small villages in Austria, for instance, you can have 3-digit house numbers assigned to every property. Or sometimes the village is divided into named areas each of which has a separate set of (usually smaller) house numbers.

Here you could often get away with numbering within a townland. Doing so, you could achieve an accurate property match using an ABC123 postcode and a house number or house number/road name pair. With larger postcode areas (as used in most of Europe) you should still be able to assure address uniqueness as long as postcode, road name OR townland and house number are supplied. Though the latter scheme might require a purge on duplicate road names that might exist within the larger postcode area.

spacetweek

Just out of interest, here's a list of the countries that still don't have postcodes. I've omitted Africa because hardly any of them have them, and small states and Pacific/Caribbean islands. Some notes at the end.

Albania **
Andorra **
Bahrain, Belize, Bhutan, Bolivia, Cambodia
Chile #
Colombia, Ecuador, El Salvador
Gibraltar #
Guatemala, Honduras
Hong Kong #
Iran #
Ireland **
Jamaica %
Jordan, Kuwait, Laos, Lebanon
Macau #
Myanmar, Nepal, Nicaragua
Nigeria #
North Korea, Oman, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru
Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sri Lanka, Suriname, Syria
United Arab Emirates, Vietnam, Yemen

Notes:
** European countries: Andorra, Albania, Ireland. They're the only 3! Even Liechtenstein, Monaco, and San Marino have them!

% Jamaica: This country introduced postcodes recently, but abolished them shortly afterwards due to the generally crappy way they were implemented.

# These countries are interesting in some way:
Chile: Surprised a country with their level of development doesn't have them yet. Argentina and Uruguay do.
Gibraltar: Surprised this isn't integrated with Spain's system.
Hong Kong/Macau: Same, with China.
Iran and Nigeria: I'm amazed these two countries, with a combined 220 million inhabitants and large territories, don't have postcodes.

antoinolachtnai

The other thing to consider with all these countries is how structured the addresses are. The problem in Ireland isn't just the lack of a postcode, it's actually the whole address that is a problem. If we had a very clear addressing scheme, we potentially wouldn't have any need for a postcode. Hong Kong, for example, has a fairly standard structure for an address. Our address structure, by contrast, is very 'stringy'.

recedite

Don't forget that people will want something short to type into a satnav or mobile phone, preferably 8 or less digits. Anything that requires a written address component is starting to fall outside this.
Also, I might want to arrange to meet a group of people at a forest car park, a marina or a beach. Why be restricted to houses?

antoinolachtnai

well, that's another problem really. Not saying it isn't an important one but the number one problem is providing services to human settlements. Certainly, it makes sense to allocate codes to developments like a car park or a marina.

A beach? I guess the question is whether it is connected to the road network. If it is, then it would make sense to allocate a code to the entrance or car park. If it's remote from road networks, then is it really a place where services are going to be delivered? Is anyone really going to meet a group of people in such a place?

The code isn't necessarily just about location in the GIS sense. It's also about the means of access. You might be a few hundred yards from a location, but it doesn't mean that you have any way to reach it.

mackerski

recedite wrote: »

Also, I might want to arrange to meet a group of people at a forest car park, a marina or a beach. Why be restricted to houses?

While it may turn out to be useful to have such places accessible by code, my feeling is that punching in a code won't be the enduring way to get there. Rather one of the following:

* You do a POI search for Beach, Forest Park, whatever. Your device will enter a predictive mode, initially closest first. You punch in letters from the name of the destination until the one you need floats to the top of the list.

* You have promotional material from the destination. If printed, this could contain a QR code containing raw lat and long, with GPS devices having scanners built in. Likewise, expect to see protocols for direct transfer of POI data from web pages to your satnav. All the more so as personal navigation devices begin to converge with smartphones.

Direct entry of a code, which probably will happen to some extent, will ideally be of a very short code, one that isn't computed from co-ordinates (because the code would be too long) but allocated by a service similar to tinyurl. This is hard today, when most personal navigation devices are not connected to the Internet, but this limitation will not remain.

recedite

The particular forest or beach I am going to will have several entrances with separate parking areas. To avoid confusion, I want to meet at one of these. No listings in the form of satnav POI, or promotional literature codes will be available for these small parking areas. Raw lat and long data is too long and complicated; I want to e-mail a link showing a map of the location to the other people in advance. A location code of 8 or less digits, as per Go Code or Loc8 is very suitable.
If I want a courier to deliver a parcel to me the next day, the same system is also very suitable for that.

mackerski

recedite wrote: »

The particular forest or beach I am going to will have several entrances with separate parking areas. To avoid confusion, I want to meet at one of these. No listings in the form of satnav POI, or promotional literature codes will be available for these small parking areas. Raw lat and long data is too long and complicated; I want to e-mail a link showing a map of the location to the other people in advance. A location code of 8 or less digits, as per Go Code or Loc8 is very suitable.
If I want a courier to deliver a parcel to me the next day, the same system is also very suitable for that.

Sounds a bit like a National Grid reference. Not that those are well-supported by GPS devices, but at least they are established and transparent.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

jetpack101

I can't see how the Loc8 could would be a problem for the post office.
You still have your full address on the front of the envelope. You just added a couple of numbers at the end.

I have tried to look at this from the post office point of view and I can't see how it would not work for them. As far as I'm aware the post office has a machine that reads addresses passed over a camera. Would it not make it easer if the machine did not have to read the full address just the first few digits of the Loc8 code.

So it knows that NM will take them to North Dublin for example. This is much easer then trying to read a full address.

I do think that the post office should have full access to incorporate loc8 into there systems but not edit or change its function in any way.


I have said this before and I will say it again..
PLEASE bring out an app for android phones. There are lots of mobile phone companies using the android platform and only one using the Apple iPhone platform. The sooner you do this the sooner people can really start using it to there advantage. The quicker people see how easy it is to use the more people will want it.

garydubh

mackerski wrote: »

While it may turn out to be useful to have such places accessible by code, my feeling is that punching in a code won't be the enduring way to get there. Rather one of the following:

* You do a POI search for Beach, Forest Park, whatever. Your device will enter a predictive mode, initially closest first. You punch in letters from the name of the destination until the one you need floats to the top of the list.

* You have promotional material from the destination. If printed, this could contain a QR code containing raw lat and long, with GPS devices having scanners built in. Likewise, expect to see protocols for direct transfer of POI data from web pages to your satnav. All the more so as personal navigation devices begin to converge with smartphones.

Direct entry of a code, which probably will happen to some extent, will ideally be of a very short code, one that isn't computed from co-ordinates (because the code would be too long) but allocated by a service similar to tinyurl. This is hard today, when most personal navigation devices are not connected to the Internet, but this limitation will not remain.

here's a tiny url: W8L-82-4YK - add this tiny url or any one like it to thus URL: www.loc8code.com and the result is:
www.loc8code.com/W8L-82-4YK
and you're there... guess this is what you mean!

IrlJidel

garydubh wrote: »

here's a tiny url: W8L-82-4YK - add this tiny url or any one like it to thus URL: www.loc8code.com and the result is:
www.loc8code.com/W8L-82-4YK
and you're there... guess this is what you mean!

Openstreetmap already has a lat/lot shortening code.

Your approx location equivalent would be eslG2BKPf

http://osm.org/go/eslG2BKPf--

Code to generate the code is 27 lines of javascript.

Now, I notice OSM map of Crosshaven is missing GPS House and the name of Church Bay Road.

Can you use a published LOC8 code to update address data elsewhere, for example OSM?

garydubh

IrlJidel wrote: »

Openstreetmap already has a lat/lot shortening code.

Your approx location equivalent would be eslG2BKPf

http://osm.org/go/eslG2BKPf--

Surely you are not serious?

You mean you would have people living at:
http://osm.org/go/eslesbian

or even

http://osm.org/go/esfu*ker

and look http://osm.org/go/esFU*KER is a different f'ing place? (different location when capitals are used)

Perhaps this would be the place for all the electricity bills:
http://osm.org/go/esbbills - not many 'ohms there though!

.............and I like where you've put our Taoiseach:
http://osm.org/go/esbcowen

and I am amazed at the fact that Esbjerg in Denmark has been moved by OSM to Limerick: http://osm.org/go/esbjerg - oh the power of mapping!


..... honestly IrlJidel I really think there is more to it than that if you want the public to use it - perhaps a few more lines of code would sort it!

OK this thread has gone a long way in recent months, so I'm going to come up with a simple suggestion.

Link emails to geographic locations using any of the systems mentioned above.

A simple application where a user enters the email (with prior authorisation from the addressee) and a map appears giving the precise location.

mackerski

Deleted User wrote: »

OK this thread has gone a long way in recent months, so I'm going to come up with a simple suggestion.

Link emails to geographic locations using any of the systems mentioned above.

A simple application where a user enters the email (with prior authorisation from the addressee) and a map appears giving the precise location.

It's a nice idea, along the lines of what Web Finger is trying to do - basically hanging a load of information that you choose to make available about yourself (= a profile) off your email address and allowing others to look it up. The beauty of using the email address is that people will already know it and it's (hopefully) pretty memorable.

A location element is tricky within web finger, though, since it is intended to provide not-so-secret information, like where your Flickr home page is. People you don't want to see your private pics on Flickr won't gain access to them even if they can use web finger to find out your Flickr username. But few people would want to publish location information quite that openly. And if they did, what location would that be? Where they are now? Where they live or work?

You could do it, though, and it's a nice example of the kind of code-free information transfer that I expect to become the norm. A location keyed against email address could be expressed in any grid or code system, but lat and long would seem most reasonable.

I'll give some thought to how web finger or something like it could be used to solve this problem.

recedite

mackerski wrote: »

A location keyed against email address could be expressed in any grid or code system, but lat and long would seem most reasonable.

The location codes from go code and loc8 are basically lat. and long. info expressed in a more intelligent (versatile) and compact way. A business owner would want to give the precise location of his premises, but a private email might supply only a 3 digit area code. I see that condi is supplying the 3 digit loc8 code as part of the boards.ie user profile/signature, a few posts back.
I would imagine that loc8 and go code could have an email linked application on their websites linked to their databases, but that once the info is "out there" other sites on the net like web finger would soon trawl the info.

mackerski

recedite wrote: »

The location codes from go code and loc8 are basically lat. and long. info expressed in a more intelligent (versatile) and compact way. A business owner would want to give the precise location of his premises, but a private email might supply only a 3 digit area code. I see that condi is supplying the 3 digit loc8 code as part of the boards.ie user profile/signature, a few posts back.

The encodings are more compact than lat and long, but for this particular use case they are less versatile, not more. Being optimised for manual entry is no advantage if being used as an intermediate format in a machine lookup based on email address. In fact, since lat and long is what you require from your lookup anyway, the processing and the requirement for a third-party algorithm to perform it make it decidedly inefficient - again, for this particular use case.

Remember that both raw lat/long and traditional grid references can also support different degrees of accuracy in communicating a location. Right now, for instance, I'm at 53 degrees north and 6 degrees west.

garydubh

mackerski wrote: »

The encodings are more compact than lat and long, but for this particular use case they are less versatile, not more. Being optimised for manual entry is no advantage if being used as an intermediate format in a machine lookup based on email address. In fact, since lat and long is what you require from your lookup anyway, the processing and the requirement for a third-party algorithm to perform it make it decidedly inefficient - again, for this particular use case.

Remember that both raw lat/long and traditional grid references can also support different degrees of accuracy in communicating a location. Right now, for instance, I'm at 53 degrees north and 6 degrees west.

You are confusing the readers - this thread is about postcodes or modern alternatives - not about geocoded e-mail addresses. There is no need for Loc8 if humans are not involved - geographic coordinates are normal in those circumstances and well used - nothing new in that and no one is suggesting otherwise (Web Finger Wagging!)

As an aside If you are at 53N 006W - hope you are floating!

mackerski

Because there's almost no complex situation that can't be understood better by letting cartoon characters generalise about it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jguUtYCjog

Edit: Embedded version is working again, but in case anybody wants the direct link: http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7045179/

spacetweek

mackerski wrote: »

Because there's almost no complex situation that can't be understood better by letting cartoon characters generalise about it...
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7045179/

Hilarious, but are they really going for the ATH 123 format? I'm hoping common sense will prevail over that one. The only two countries I'm aware of with alphnumeric codes are Canada and the UK - some other countries are partial (NLands & Australia) with the state in characters and location within the state numeric. We should be going all-numeric in line with best practice internationally.

garydubh

spacetweek wrote: »

Hilarious, but are they really going for the ATH 123 format? I'm hoping common sense will prevail over that one. The only two countries I'm aware of with alphnumeric codes are Canada and the UK - some other countries are partial (NLands & Australia) with the state in characters and location within the state numeric. We should be going all-numeric in line with best practice internationally.

Once again a few points need to be considered:

1. The number and type of characters depends on the precision required and the purpose to which the code is to be put to. Most international postcodes are designed purely for sorting mail and therefore need more information to be able to identify individual properties. So before you state what it should look like - please state first what the user requirements and related resolutions are. Loc8's designers first defined user requirements (by talking to industry users) over 4 years of research and built the code to suit those and then refined over 2 years of real field testing. There is nothing else proposed for Ireland that has undergone such a rigorous lead in procedure and certainly nothing that has been field tested!

2. The cartoon is hilarious indeed and the point that the ABC 123 format initially proposed will not work is well made. That is why Loc8 has not used that methodology.

3. A useable Post/Location Code in public use must have certain key characteristics:

• Pedicatable - certain things must be expected in certain places - if alpanumeric then it must be always alphnumeric
• Validatable - in software use, the software must be able to absolutely confirm that what it is looking at is the desired code - in Loc8 Codes this is a combination of predictability and the use of a checker code. Postcodes that are all numbers do not satisfy this requirement and can easily be confused with telephone numbers, refernces numbers etc etc. In the case of post or location coes that can be all letters - then no one could ever be sure what they are.
• Must have a single source - as a surveyor/navigator I teach people to use coordinates both Geographic and Grid - but unfortunately many have great difficulty with these and they come in too many formats for casual users. Furthermore, for a Post or Location Code if there are multiple sources with multiple formats and accuracies then this is a recipe for disaster - another reason why coordinates cannot be used.
• All thsese are critical if to be used for emergency services.

Mackerski's cartoon uses the UK as an example for:

• What we should do
• What we should not do

so this meassage is a bit confused.

Northern Ireland is definitely a refence point. They tried to introduce road names and numbers to make the UK postcode work there - this failed
- Mackerski suggests that we could try some of this ourselves - except the Post Code Board (independent industry members) report specifically stated that existing addresses cannot be changed. Getting anyone to use property numbers even in cities in Ireland is difficult enough already and changing an address - well that's a bit like "The Field" all over again. So using the UK postcode in NI as a reference will tell us not to try do the same thing - the UK postcode only works where there are road names and property numbers so not a good argument. Also not a good argument as Ireland is completely different in address formats and demographics - Ireland has more of its population living in non urban areas than any other country in Europe - at least 10 times more. Up to 40% of Irish addresses are non unique - again not something that happens in England!

Then the real thrust of Makerski's argument is that whatever is put in place must be liccense free for bulk users. Mackerski represents OSM who want to use whatever is developed to promote their own mapping product which OSM allows others to use and sell if they wish - so license free to OSM but their customers can make money out of it! That is why OSM has made a desperate effort to develop a solution itself - posted here 2 days ago

Mackerski uses tracklogs to make maps for OSM (in addition to his normal daytime commercial and business activities) - his knowldege of Postcodes extends to OSM's pressure in the UK to free the postcode. That is so that bulk users of the UK postcode can use it for free - i.e. OSM can use it for free in its mapping which it gives to others who then can sell it if they wish.

After 50 years (celebrated earlier this year) the Royal Mail is now freeing up the postcode as Mackerski suggests but that is after 50 years of set-up, development, promotion and maintenance costs. Billions of pounds has been spent on achieving 95% penetration in this time. Mackerski now suggests that no matter what the related costs are here in Ireland - bulk users such as OSM who use to promote their own organisation with or without license or cost should benefit from whatever investment is put in themselves.

So it is important to split out the points in Mackerski's cartoon - ultimately he is promoting a better system than in the UK - that is good but his interest is making sure OSM can have access to the best system to promote itself amongst its users (commercial or otherwise) and improve the value when eventually OSM is sold to commercial interests. It is also important to realise that private users can use their codes without any cost in the UK and that will be the same here no matter what system is used - The thrust of Makerski's innocent little cartoon is to sell the idea of license free bulk use of codes for OSM and their commercial users.

So lets get back to the real issues:

Does Ireland need a traditional Postcode? - no - traditional postcodes are a 1950's solution for sorting mail and relate to properties only - Sorting Mail nowadays can be done without a postcode - delivering is the problem and that is why whatever solution is introduced it must be capable of guiding the "deliverer" to the door. Goods also get delivered to non properties (building materials, farm supplies, catering goods to outdoor events etc etc- so again whatever code is adopted must be able to satisfy that requirement also. That is what Loc8 Codes do - they are a modern form of postcode - capable of supporting a delivery without changing an address in the case of properties, capable of supporting deliveries to non properties and capable of guiding vehicles or people into a particular building or site entrance or to specific car park places or meeting points.

Finally Mackerski speaks on the basis of OSM's knowledge in the UK. There, to implement the postcode in OSM mapping - an address database must be added and maintained - expensive - and expensive to keep up to date (wonder who will pay for updating if the Royal Mail is giving away for nothing? - Royal Mail is now selling a more accurate door point accuracy database!!!) Loc8 does not need any database or any maintenence - it is a coordiante system built specifically to allow the untrained use it without error - so very inexpensive in time, programming and resources to implement and in fact it would not be implemented by a mapping agency - Navteq, TeleAtlas, OSI, OSNI or even OSM - it would be implemented by the software manufacturer themselves (as Garmin have already done) - so a very different proposition than Mackerski or OSM understands.

There is more to post or location codes that just how many characters or what type of characters - I think IrlJidl and OSM might understand that now!

IrlJidel

garydubh wrote: »

Then the real thrust of Makerski's argument is that whatever is put in place must be liccense free for bulk users. Mackerski represents OSM who want to use whatever is developed to promote their own mapping product which OSM allows others to use and sell if they wish - so license free to OSM but their customers can make money out of it!

I think we should make it clear that neither I or Mackerski officially represent OSM. We're not members of the OSM foundation or any other OSM committee. I have as much rights or ownership to the data as you have.

We're both just OSM enthusiasts who are interested in contributing towards the OSM map of Ireland.

garydubh wrote: »

That is why OSM has made a desperate effort to develop a solution itself - posted here 2 days ago

I am not OSM and I didn't develop the solution - I just pointed out the tinyurl type code that is used to generate short location links to a lat-long location.

garydubh wrote: »

So it is important to split out the points in Mackerski's cartoon - ultimately he is promoting a better system than in the UK - that is good but his interest is making sure OSM can have access to the best system to promote itself amongst its users (commercial or otherwise) and improve the value when eventually OSM is sold to commercial interests. It is also important to realise that private users can use their codes without any cost in the UK and that will be the same here no matter what system is used - The thrust of Makerski's innocent little cartoon is to sell the idea of license free bulk use of codes for OSM and their commercial users.

OSM cannot be sold, everybody owns the data. OSM does not have commercial interests.

I come from a background of the Internet industry which is where it is today due to the open protocols and open operating system and application software. This created an ecosystem where it evolved into something much bigger and flexible that if it was a closed system.

In my view, geo-data is too important to be owned and managed by closed proprietary systems . Having open geo-data and open geo-standards could create a whole new slew of industries using this data in interesting and novel ways.

garydubh wrote: »

There is more to post or location codes that just how many characters or what type of characters - I think IrlJidl and OSM might understand that now!

Your post gave me a chuckle - I'll try and find a rude code that maps to Bastardstown in Wexford so we can have a double-whammy ;-)

antoinolachtnai

spacetweek wrote: »

Hilarious, but are they really going for the ATH 123 format? I'm hoping common sense will prevail over that one. The only two countries I'm aware of with alphnumeric codes are Canada and the UK - some other countries are partial (NLands & Australia) with the state in characters and location within the state numeric. We should be going all-numeric in line with best practice internationally.

This is an account of the proposed system, based on documents supplied to journalists by the government department. There is some more information on the Department's website.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0922/1224254988303.html

mackerski

garydubh wrote: »

That is why OSM has made a desperate effort to develop a solution itself - posted here 2 days ago

It's hardly desperate - OSM shortlink codes have exactly one function, and it's one they have been fulfilling well in the year or so that they have existed.

To link to a particular part of the OSM slippy map, we used to have to use a link like this:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.3736&lon=-6.37774&zoom=17&layers=M

The shortlink allows that to be:
http://osm.org/go/es@Sc0FGs-

This was knocked out as a quick and dirty solution to the problem of links that would otherwise end up word-wrapped if quoted in email. To keep them short while still working worldwide, the codes have been allowed to be case-sensitive, extra characters have been permitted that would be confusing in a post- or location code and even the hyphens are significant rather than being provided for punctuation. All of these characteristics would make them very poor for human entry, but that's not what they're for, so that's OK. They are also too long for that. So don't worry - we won't be trying to eat your lunch any time soon. Turning map locations into codes to be handed around to users who will turn them back into locations isn't something most OSM mappers will care about - if people find reasons to do so using OSM that's fine, though.

garydubh wrote: »

Mackerski uses tracklogs to make maps for OSM (in addition to his normal daytime commercial and business activities) - his knowldege of Postcodes extends to OSM's pressure in the UK to free the postcode. That is so that bulk users of the UK postcode can use it for free - i.e. OSM can use it for free in its mapping which it gives to others who then can sell it if they wish.

On a point of board etiquette, I consider it polite not to state things about other posters that I don't know, especially the extent of their knowledge. Your tone is tending towards ad hominem argument. Let's stick to the the subject matter, shall we?

garydubh wrote: »

After 50 years (celebrated earlier this year) the Royal Mail is now freeing up the postcode as Mackerski suggests but that is after 50 years of set-up, development, promotion and maintenance costs. Billions of pounds has been spent on achieving 95% penetration in this time. Mackerski now suggests that no matter what the related costs are here in Ireland - bulk users such as OSM who use to promote their own organisation with or without license or cost should benefit from whatever investment is put in themselves.

The UK postcode release is actually from the Ordnance Survey. And indeed it isn't of the entire (let's call it) value-added postcode database, in that it contains co-ordinates of delivery points, but not actual street addresses. As such, it represents a nice compromise. Some people will still wish to pay for a postcode database that allows, among other things, address completion based on house number and postcode. Others (like OSM) will find it sufficient to have a single set of co-ordinates per postcode.

Likewise what I advocate for Irish postcodes. There are two things I specifically don't request and never have.

The first is any special treatment for OSM or anybody else. Indeed, OSM's "outbound" data licence is more or less designed to make it impossible for the project (in the shape of independent mappers, which is all we are) to enter into such deals anyway - if it goes into OSM, everybody is free to use it under the usual, liberal, licence terms. This is our idea of "What You See Is What You Get", even though it will make us look rather choosy when it comes to what data we will accept into the map.

The second thing I have never asked for is free access to a body of work whose complexity is so great as to require, by necessity, commercial income in order to become viable. No sir - that would be unreasonable, right? But I do demand that information necessary to perform certain mundane things - like locating an address in the ways the state suggests we should - should be possible for all people reasonably wishing to do so. And that includes a project like OSM with no budget for such things.

So how do you pay for the implementation of postcodes? Two options. One is to implement simpler codes. The government has preferred not to, but most of the world has gone down this road and has applied sufficient structure to their addresses to make this OK. And as I mentioned in my cartoon, even the government-proposed postcodes won't yield unique addresses without the addition of house numbers. The government is running a mile from changing the address scheme - I can see why, and I think it's actually the safest option if they want postcodes to succeed.

However, I don't think the addition of a house number alone to properties that lack one represents a step change to the addressing scheme. Some people will consider themselves too important to use a house number, and that's fine, the world won't end because of that. Their postie will continue to know that the Murphy family lives in the same house they always did. Likewise DHL deliveries will continue to have trouble finding them, and their deliveries may sometimes end up back in the depot.

This may lead them to start owning up to their house number a bit more often - DHL might use the premium version of the postcode database to look up exactly where the Murphy house number really is, where users of the free database would have to make do with a centre point for the townland or townland portion referred to by the postcode alone. Indeed, DHL might begin to charge more to deliver to addresses where no house number is supplied.

garydubh wrote: »

that is good but his interest is making sure OSM can have access to the best system to promote itself amongst its users (commercial or otherwise) and improve the value when eventually OSM is sold to commercial interests.

Who should sell OSM? Nobody owns it. FUD like this is gravely offensive to any mapper. It's bizarre that you could ascribe a motive to somebody on the basis of supposed future events that it is impossible for them to carry out. Anybody on this thread is free today to commercially exploit OSM, and I encourage as many of you as wish to to go and do it.

But try to understand it first.

garydubh wrote: »

Finally Mackerski speaks on the basis of OSM's knowledge in the UK. There, to implement the postcode in OSM mapping - an address database must be added and maintained - expensive - and expensive to keep up to date

Not so - co-ordinates are fine. OSM, in areas where mapping exceeds a certain level of detail, already has an address database (albeit not a definitive one, so people will still wish to licence an official one), so co-ordinates are fine for any of our current applications.

recedite

Deleted User wrote: »

A simple application where a user enters the email (with prior authorisation from the addressee) and a map appears giving the precise location.

Just wondering.... as I have a validated loc8 code, which required me to supply my e-mail address, have I already inadvertently given this authorisation to Loc8 and any other third party they may wish to share it with? By agreeing to my loc8 "address" info being shared.
I don't mind the house address being linked to the code, but I prefer not to have the e-mail address linked to these.

recedite

recedite wrote: »

Just wondering.... as I have a validated loc8 code, which required me to supply my e-mail address, have I already inadvertently given this authorisation to Loc8 and any other third party they may wish to share it with? By agreeing to my loc8 "address" info being shared.
I don't mind the house address being linked to the code, but I prefer not to have the e-mail address linked to these.

My understanding is that the email was only used to validate the address, as in getting an email to check that you positioned your house correctly.

garydubh

Deleted User wrote: »

My understanding is that the email was only used to validate the address, as in getting an email to check that you positioned your house correctly.

You are indeed correct - when you chose to give your personal e-mail address, this is only used to communicate with you regarding your code (validation etc) and for you to access your account. E-mail addresses are not shared with anyone and are protected in accordance with data protection requirements. Personal email addresses are stored encrypted in our system as is the norm. Our Privacy Policy is on the bottom of each page on the site and presented when you choes to validate your code. Furthermore our use of e-mails is covered in great detail in the help page on the site

No personal information is associated with Loc8 codes - hope this hleps

Richiecats

ACProctor wrote: »

Unless you work for a software company that needs to know ahead of time what the system will be, and what the codes look like

It's a big fuss about nothing, the only problem is scarred people that the sky will fall down and people having idea's that the numbers and letters used have to relate to where the address is and be able to know what the next street's postcode is based on the one you are in.

It's only a code dah

Richiecats

garydubh wrote: »

Once again a few points need to be considered:

1. The number and type of characters depends on the precision required and the purpose to which the code is to be put to. Most international postcodes are designed purely for sorting mail and therefore need more information to be able to identify individual properties. So before you state what it should look like - please state first what the user requirements and related resolutions are. Loc8's designers first defined user requirements (by talking to industry users) over 4 years of research and built the code to suit those and then refined over 2 years of real field testing. There is nothing else proposed for Ireland that has undergone such a rigorous lead in procedure and certainly nothing that has been field tested!

2. The cartoon is hilarious indeed and the point that the ABC 123 format initially proposed will not work is well made. That is why Loc8 has not used that methodology.

3. A useable Post/Location Code in public use must have certain key characteristics:

• Pedicatable - certain things must be expected in certain places - if alpanumeric then it must be always alphnumeric
• Validatable - in software use, the software must be able to absolutely confirm that what it is looking at is the desired code - in Loc8 Codes this is a combination of predictability and the use of a checker code. Postcodes that are all numbers do not satisfy this requirement and can easily be confused with telephone numbers, refernces numbers etc etc. In the case of post or location coes that can be all letters - then no one could ever be sure what they are.
• Must have a single source - as a surveyor/navigator I teach people to use coordinates both Geographic and Grid - but unfortunately many have great difficulty with these and they come in too many formats for casual users. Furthermore, for a Post or Location Code if there are multiple sources with multiple formats and accuracies then this is a recipe for disaster - another reason why coordinates cannot be used.
• All thsese are critical if to be used for emergency services.

Mackerski's cartoon uses the UK as an example for:

• What we should do
• What we should not do

so this meassage is a bit confused.

Northern Ireland is definitely a refence point. They tried to introduce road names and numbers to make the UK postcode work there - this failed
- Mackerski suggests that we could try some of this ourselves - except the Post Code Board (independent industry members) report specifically stated that existing addresses cannot be changed. Getting anyone to use property numbers even in cities in Ireland is difficult enough already and changing an address - well that's a bit like "The Field" all over again. So using the UK postcode in NI as a reference will tell us not to try do the same thing - the UK postcode only works where there are road names and property numbers so not a good argument. Also not a good argument as Ireland is completely different in address formats and demographics - Ireland has more of its population living in non urban areas than any other country in Europe - at least 10 times more. Up to 40% of Irish addresses are non unique - again not something that happens in England!

Then the real thrust of Makerski's argument is that whatever is put in place must be liccense free for bulk users. Mackerski represents OSM who want to use whatever is developed to promote their own mapping product which OSM allows others to use and sell if they wish - so license free to OSM but their customers can make money out of it! That is why OSM has made a desperate effort to develop a solution itself - posted here 2 days ago

Mackerski uses tracklogs to make maps for OSM (in addition to his normal daytime commercial and business activities) - his knowldege of Postcodes extends to OSM's pressure in the UK to free the postcode. That is so that bulk users of the UK postcode can use it for free - i.e. OSM can use it for free in its mapping which it gives to others who then can sell it if they wish.

After 50 years (celebrated earlier this year) the Royal Mail is now freeing up the postcode as Mackerski suggests but that is after 50 years of set-up, development, promotion and maintenance costs. Billions of pounds has been spent on achieving 95% penetration in this time. Mackerski now suggests that no matter what the related costs are here in Ireland - bulk users such as OSM who use to promote their own organisation with or without license or cost should benefit from whatever investment is put in themselves.

So it is important to split out the points in Mackerski's cartoon - ultimately he is promoting a better system than in the UK - that is good but his interest is making sure OSM can have access to the best system to promote itself amongst its users (commercial or otherwise) and improve the value when eventually OSM is sold to commercial interests. It is also important to realise that private users can use their codes without any cost in the UK and that will be the same here no matter what system is used - The thrust of Makerski's innocent little cartoon is to sell the idea of license free bulk use of codes for OSM and their commercial users.

So lets get back to the real issues:

Does Ireland need a traditional Postcode? - no - traditional postcodes are a 1950's solution for sorting mail and relate to properties only - Sorting Mail nowadays can be done without a postcode - delivering is the problem and that is why whatever solution is introduced it must be capable of guiding the "deliverer" to the door. Goods also get delivered to non properties (building materials, farm supplies, catering goods to outdoor events etc etc- so again whatever code is adopted must be able to satisfy that requirement also. That is what Loc8 Codes do - they are a modern form of postcode - capable of supporting a delivery without changing an address in the case of properties, capable of supporting deliveries to non properties and capable of guiding vehicles or people into a particular building or site entrance or to specific car park places or meeting points.

Finally Mackerski speaks on the basis of OSM's knowledge in the UK. There, to implement the postcode in OSM mapping - an address database must be added and maintained - expensive - and expensive to keep up to date (wonder who will pay for updating if the Royal Mail is giving away for nothing? - Royal Mail is now selling a more accurate door point accuracy database!!!) Loc8 does not need any database or any maintenence - it is a coordiante system built specifically to allow the untrained use it without error - so very inexpensive in time, programming and resources to implement and in fact it would not be implemented by a mapping agency - Navteq, TeleAtlas, OSI, OSNI or even OSM - it would be implemented by the software manufacturer themselves (as Garmin have already done) - so a very different proposition than Mackerski or OSM understands.

There is more to post or location codes that just how many characters or what type of characters - I think IrlJidl and OSM might understand that now!

Well it's a long statement, 1 point, all that's needed - NOT ALL UK HOUSES HAVE NUMBERS, SOME JUST HAVE NAMES.

So get real a UK based postcode system would work, stop trying to over complicated the matter with find the gps or geo or some other spaz system to pin the codes to a gps system

Richiecats

mackerski wrote: »

But how do you measure success? Consumer uptake? Consumers are not likely to value the same things the government has on its shopping list.

You don't give them the choice, you have time to use the new system and then it does not get delivered, so there is a choice use it or lose your post.

Solair

I really don't know what the big fuss is about introducing a code to improve the accuracy of addresses.

Some of the arguments against it that I have been hearing are just utterly ridiculous.

I was reading some old articles and there were similar silly technophobic arguments against removing manual (operator based) telephone exchanges in the 1960s and 70s! i.e. lack of personal touch etc etc.

We absolutely need a codified addressing system a.s.a.p.

Incidentally, some of the continental numeric systems are about as useless as manual addresses e.g. the French system only defines the town or arrondissement in very large cities (e.g. Paris, Lyon etc). They're completely useless for vague addresses like those in Ireland.

E.g. Paris 75001

75 = Paris (very useful!)
001 = Arrondissement 1

So, basically it provides no more information than the 19th century address: Paris 1

Bordeaux 33000 = The ENTIRE central area of Bordeaux, which is an area as big as Dublin.

Most of these systems were only useful for the post office's primitive mail sortation (automatic sorting) systems in the 1960s/70s and still rely on a very accurate street address.

Ireland needs something like one of the systems being discussed in here as we don't have accurate street addressees for most of our buildings, even those IN urban areas!

Carawaystick

How is mail delivered in Bordeaux of Paris?
Do the postmen read the street address and use that piece of information to figure out where to deliver the mail to?

antoinolachtnai

They certainly do. It is made a lot easier by addresses having a standard format. There are no instances of two streets with the same name in the same postal area, as occurs in Ireland.

In france, addresses are basically 4 lines long. In Ireland, because of the ambiguity, full addresses can end up 9 or 10 lines long.

Solair

Carawaystick wrote: »

How is mail delivered in Bordeaux of Paris?
Do the postmen read the street address and use that piece of information to figure out where to deliver the mail to?

I was just using the French example to show that not all European postal code systems are particularly sophisticated, accurate or useful for GPS or non-post office use.

BTW: Bordeaux is actually a large city (slightly smaller than Dublin) in the Southwest of France, it's not an area of Paris.

French system:

France was divided into 100 departments after the French Revolution. These are numbered 00 to 99 in mainland France. So, the first two digits of the postal code are the department number.

The last 3 digits are used to identify the town or arrondissement (numbered urban area).

In the case of a large town/city the main area is always 000.
Other large towns would be 100,200,300, and so on.

In Paris and Lyon and other large cities they whack the arrondissement number on the end of the postal code e.g. 16 arrondissement of Paris is 75016.

This system was introduced decades ago to automate and speed up the sorting of post. It allowed postal workers to sort very quickly using semi-automatic machinery where the postal code could be either read or keyed in.

All this system does is codify the name of the town! It's effectively the lowest resolution system you could possibly use, even though it looks quite high-tech.

This is exactly the kind of system we DO NOT need in Ireland as it would provide absolutely no advantages at all and would be useless for anyone other than An Post.

I also think it demonstrates why attempting to incorporate the old Dublin or Cork district numbers (which are akin to arrondissements in France) is completely futile as it just distorts the system and makes it less accurate for GPS use.

who_am_I?

Last week I dropped an email to Minister Eamonn Ryan aslking him what the current status of the postcode roll-out is because the website has not been updated in a few months.
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

I am still waiting for an answer...
If anyone else feels like asking this or any other postcode related question question his contact details are here available here.
http://www.greenparty.ie/en/people/eamon_ryan

It looks looks this postcode roll-out is not happening (yet again)