National Postcodes to be introduced

antoinolachtnai

recedite wrote: »

In the early stages especially, not many people have got their code by pinpointing their location on a map. So it uses the An Post Geodirectory to translate a typed address into a map coordinate. Then converts the coordinate into a GoCode. You can do the first part yourself here;
http://www.geodirectory.ie/GeodirectoryMap.aspx
This database is owned by an Post; they can charge commercial customers for using it. Its a good way of initially getting coordinates and therefore codes for most buildings in the country, although it won't work so well in rural areas.

The GoCode is a derivative database of the Geodirectory. It doesn't stand alone. Geodirectory (or another address database) is essential to make GoCode work.

Realistically, if GoCode succeeds in its ambition and start selling its address database including a commonly used postcode, Geodirectory's business will be destroyed and it will be shut down. The Golden Goose will be dead in the water and GoCode will have to cover the cost of maintaining the database going forward, and resolving the many serious problems with the Geodirectory database (which is still a very good database in many ways).

I am not saying that there is anything necessarily wrong with this (although Geodirectory's promoters would have obvious and legitimate misgivings). But the reality is that if you want to have a postcode which pinpoints individual houses and that is reasonably useful and accurate, you will have to have a database of buildings. There is no 'cheap' way to do this job if quality is important.

The same goes for the mapping. You absolutely need a high quality set of comprehensive and pinpoint-accurate maps to be able to sort and deliver on the basis of the PONC/Loc8 and Gocodes. Google maps are not these maps (nor do they advertise themselves as such).

You could have a much simpler system by simply applying 5-digit numbers to all the Electoral Divisions and/or Census Small Areas. This could stand separately from an address database and the address database would not be essential to use it, although it would be a useful added extra. It would bring you down to the nearest 60 or so houses. If you wanted a finer-grained code at a later date, you could just add an extra two digits for the road segment, and a further two digits to identify the house (obviously at this stage, an address database would be essential).

baalthor

recedite wrote: »

If your sat nav has brought you to a defined point on someone's driveway, and the dog is barking at you and the owner is looking out the window.....then take it that you have arrived!

Most houses are un-occupied during work hours (apart from the hundreds of thousands of empties). Not sure about the geo-positional abilities of the average canine although according to some people they know everything

GoCoder

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You could have a much simpler system by simply applying 5-digit numbers to all the Electoral Divisions and/or Census Small Areas. This could stand separately from an address database and the address database would not be essential to use it, although it would be a useful added extra. It would bring you down to the nearest 60 or so houses. If you wanted a finer-grained code at a later date, you could just add an extra two digits for the road segment, and a further two digits to identify the house (obviously at this stage, an address database would be essential).

That's an interesting idea. Have you developed a system for it?

The Govt is bringing in its own postcode design for sorting and delivery of mail. The OSI Small Areas are likely to be linked to that postcode system that the Govt is bringing in - ABC 123. And GeoDirectory will be used as part of that, according to all the experts. In theory, GeoDirectory could have the national postcode and GO Codes attached to its database and people could use that instead. Is that likely to happen? Selling our database, as you put it, does not make sense. For GO Code to work, it needs codes assigned to locations, of which buildings are an important subset. It works dynamically, so people can add locations to it at will, so of course it needs to be maintained and be added to.

baalthor

baalthor wrote: »

Most houses are un-occupied during work hours (apart from the hundreds of thousands of empties). Not sure about the geo-positional abilities of the average canine although according to some people they know everything

At least with a barking dog, you can be fairly sure the house is lived in, unless the dog's squatting. :P

antoinolachtnai

Gocoder: you have made a number of speculative statements in your second paragraph there and I can't really answer your question as to whether they are true, although I suspect most of them are not.

My point, to use your language, is that whilst almost any other code might be 'linked' to Geodirectory, GoCode is almost wholly a derivative of GeoDirectory. There is not necessarily anything wrong with that and it does have advantages, although it does raise important technical, legal and commercial issues. (and I took it from your previous comments that you had considered and were planning to offer commercial database services, which is what I meant by 'selling' the database).

seawolf145

dannym08 wrote: »

From the RTÉ Website



About time but 2011 seems like a long way off

could they not jus use an existing one like PONC or similar

Welcome to the modern world of 2011 IRELAND

Sponge Bob

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You could have a much simpler system by simply applying 5-digit numbers to all the Electoral Divisions and/or Census Small Areas. This could stand separately from an address database and the address database would not be essential to use it, although it would be a useful added extra. It would bring you down to the nearest 60 or so houses. If you wanted a finer-grained code at a later date, you could just add an extra two digits for the road segment, and a further two digits to identify the house (obviously at this stage, an address database would be essential).

As it happens there is a 5 digit numbering system for every electoral district ( all 3000 odd of them) run by the CSO/An Post .

There are 50,000 small areas ( SAPS) corresponding to Townlands.

Been there for years which is of course why those two muppets Dempsey and Ryan had a consultation each on postcodes.

antoinolachtnai

Here are some maps that show how a system based on the established divisions (province, county and electoral divisions) might work.

As you can see, some work is required to keep the numbering coherent and meaningful. This is obviously not final, and there are a few variations possible. It would require some public consultation to finalise a design.

This paper is based on electoral divisions, but pretty much the same formula will work for Small Areas.

This system would be inexpensive to establish and would not require an address database at the outset. It would fulfill 90 percent of the requirements of a postcode.

It could be extended to identify individual by numbering the streets and roads within divisions or small areas. This would fulfill almost all the requirements of a postcode. A further two digits would be enough to identify every single property/delivery point. (Obviously at this point an address database would be essential.)

Based on the ergonomics literature and international best practice, numbers and letters are used to maximise accuracy and recall.

GoCoder

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Here are some maps that show how a system based on the established divisions (province, county and electoral divisions) might work.

As you can see, some work is required to keep the numbering coherent and meaningful. This is obviously not final, and there are a few variations possible. It would require some public consultation to finalise a design.

This paper is based on electoral divisions, but pretty much the same formula will work for Small Areas.

This system would be inexpensive to establish and would not require an address database at the outset. It would fulfill 90 percent of the requirements of a postcode.

It could be extended to identify individual by numbering the streets and roads within divisions or small areas. This would fulfill almost all the requirements of a postcode. A further two digits would be enough to identify every single property/delivery point. (Obviously at this point an address database would be essential.)

Based on the ergonomics literature and international best practice, numbers and letters are used to maximise accuracy and recall.

If I understood your previous post, you don't think it's true that the Govt is going to run with the ABC 123 design. Why don't you submit this for the postcode tender? From your description, it sounds like it would be much more suited for the purpose.

As you say, it wouldn't need a database initially. And it could be linked to GeoDirectory when you get around to identifying single properties.

Presumably the attaching co-ordinates could then be linked to any location code systems that are still around. And we wouldn't need to keep building a National Address File - just focus on non-address locations.

How long would it take to create, allowing for your public consultation period?

antoinolachtnai

Gocoder,

I don't see how there can be a practical ABC 123 code. There are just too many places which begin with the same letters. ( According to the latest census results, there are around 300 towns with a population greater than 1000. Of these, 3 names begin with ‘ATH’ (the example that was used in the publicity). Around 15 begin with ‘BAL’. 9 begin with ‘CAS’, 7 begin with ‘DUN’. 13 begin with ‘KIL’ and a further ‘9’ town names begin with ‘RAT’. A large proportion end with an ‘N’, ‘S’, ‘D’ ‘L’ or silent ‘E’. As a result, a code based on finding a distinctive, unique, memorable abbreviation for each of the postal towns in Ireland is likely to produce more confusion than clarity) The government will have to consider this.

I don't think the scheme they envisage is going to be coincident with small areas and ED's either, because their design concept is based around 'block faces' and the An Post delivery network. These are quite unlike the ED and SA concepts. Again, they will have to consider whether this is the best architecture before they embark on detailed design.

It could be linked to Geodirectory from the very outset, in the sense that every address in Geodirectory is linked to an electoral division.

Certainly, you would be able to move forward linking to Geodirectory as you suggest, at least technically. But there are important commercial issues to consider. Most importantly, who is going to pay to keep Geodirectory on the road if this happens? If there were a building-level postcode, most of the Geodirectory revenue would evaporate overnight, but a national database of buildings and addresses would still be required.

What you say about concentrating on providing building-specific postcodes in places that don't have unique addresses makes very good sense. It would be nice to have a code for every single house, but if a house already has a unique address, it isn't really a priority.

Timing-wise, including public consultations, and to allow plenty of time, you could be ready to go in about 5 months for an ED-based scheme, about 9 months for a small-area based scheme.

If you decided you needed it, you could number the road segments progessively over a five-year period. This would be an add-on. You could launch a perfectly good postcode without this level of granularity.

Sponge Bob

A purely numeric code is equally applicable to Irish or English names. Language agnostic if you will.

If one lives in an Irish speaking area beginning with A or B one will not adopt some technogobble with a start code of QZZ or YJK which are not even letters in the Irish langauge.

One will ask for a translation into Irish...and one even has a constitutional right to do so

GoCoder

Sponge Bob wrote: »

A purely numeric code is equally applicable to Irish or English names. Language agnostic if you will.

If one lives in an Irish speaking area beginning with A or B one will not adopt some technogobble with a start code of QZZ or YJK which are not even letters in the Irish langauge.

One will ask for a translation into Irish...and one even has a constitutional right to do so

You're safe enough, I don't think we have any.:)

GoCoder

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Gocoder: you have made a number of speculative statements in your second paragraph there and I can't really answer your question as to whether they are true, although I suspect most of them are not.

My point, to use your language, is that whilst almost any other code might be 'linked' to Geodirectory, GoCode is almost wholly a derivative of GeoDirectory. There is not necessarily anything wrong with that and it does have advantages, although it does raise important technical, legal and commercial issues. (and I took it from your previous comments that you had considered and were planning to offer commercial database services, which is what I meant by 'selling' the database).

No - we're not going to do that. We have addresses and GO Codes only. GeoDirectory has a lot more info than that. Adding GO Codes to addresses is what we could do. People give us co-ordinates, we can bulk convert. Most places have GeoDirectory already anyway so the only thing we can provide is a GO Code for use internally.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Certainly, you would be able to move forward linking to Geodirectory as you suggest, at least technically. But there are important commercial issues to consider. Most importantly, who is going to pay to keep Geodirectory on the road if this happens? If there were a building-level postcode, most of the Geodirectory revenue would evaporate overnight, but a national database of buildings and addresses would still be required.

What you say about concentrating on providing building-specific postcodes in places that don't have unique addresses makes very good sense. It would be nice to have a code for every single house, but if a house already has a unique address, it isn't really a priority.

People would pay GeoDirectory to keep it updated. Or the postcode management company (maybe that's you with your design??) would. They managed it quite successfully in the UK for a number of years before the recent change in April this year.

If there's a building-level database available with GO Codes, then what I meant by non-address elements is things that don't have an address - POIs if you like.

recedite

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Realistically, if GoCode succeeds in its ambition and start selling its address database including a commonly used postcode, Geodirectory's business will be destroyed and it will be shut down. The Golden Goose will be dead in the water and GoCode will have to cover the cost of maintaining the database going forward,The same goes for the mapping. You absolutely need a high quality set of comprehensive and pinpoint-accurate maps to be able to sort and deliver on the basis of the PONC/Loc8 and Gocodes. Google maps are not these maps (nor do they advertise themselves as such).

IMO we are heading towards a more "open source" model where the public/small delivery firms update the database themselves in the future. The days of the An Post monopoly are coming to an end, although they will continue to charge for commercial use of their database as long as possible.
Deregulation/liberalisation of the postal system is coming soon, and they don't particularly want to facilitate competitors by contributing to the formation of a rational openly available postcode.
It has been pointed out that the OSI map genie has the best maps (at a price). The An Post Geodirectory was originally jointly set up jointly with OSI, yet it now uses Microsoft Bing mapping. So it appears to be every man for himself out there now.
40% of all addresses in GeoDirectory are non unique and therefore only the owners can tell which is which by clicking on a map. Also, lets not forget that a buildings database is only part of it. For recreational use etc we want a sytem of codes to easily identify and navigate to any location.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Here are some maps that show how a system based on the established divisions (province, county and electoral divisions) might work....
As you can see, some work is required to keep the numbering coherent and meaningful.

From your paper; "the second digit is assigned, beginning with 1, to the individual counties after ordering them alphabetically according to the Irish name. For Ulster, the six counties which are part of the United Kingdom have been inserted into the sequence"

Er... I think using prefixes "as gaeilge" could be politically explosive, especially in N Ireland. You might consider investing in one of those grenade proof cages for your offices, like the old RUC stations, if you win the tender.
Anyway, it is more important to have a regular grid of squares or polygons in which the adjacent cells are labelled in a related sequence, not in alphabetical order. The electoral divisions are also too irregular in shape.
I am forming the opinion now that Loc8 has already examined and solved all these issues and is in fact the best system for this country to adopt.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

who is going to pay to keep Geodirectory on the road if this happens? If there were a building-level postcode, most of the Geodirectory revenue would evaporate overnight, but a national database of buildings and addresses would still be required.

Two words; Property Tax

GoCoder

recedite wrote: »

I am forming the opinion now that Loc8 has already examined and solved all these issues and is in fact the best system for this country to adopt.

Have you a particular expertise in the area? I thought you said the best system was to use the National Grid coordinates.

antoinolachtnai

recedite wrote: »

It has been pointed out that the OSI map genie has the best maps (at a price). The An Post Geodirectory was originally jointly set up jointly with OSI, yet it now uses Microsoft Bing mapping. So it appears to be every man for himself out there now.

This is not a correct statement.

From your paper; "the second digit is assigned, beginning with 1, to the individual counties after ordering them alphabetically according to the Irish name. For Ulster, the six counties which are part of the United Kingdom have been inserted into the sequence"

Er... I think using prefixes "as gaeilge" could be politically explosive, especially in N Ireland.

So use some other order. It doesn't make much difference.

Anyway, it is more important to have a regular grid of squares or polygons in which the adjacent cells are labelled in a related sequence, not in alphabetical order.

The natural and man-made geographic features of the landscape are not square-shaped, and this is obviously the reason why electoral divisions are not square-shaped.

recedite

GoCoder wrote: »

I thought you said the best system was to use the National Grid coordinates.

I did, but an open minded person is always willing to change their opinion as more information and knowledge is obtained.

IMO the folowing are the basic requirements, and they are all fulfilled as well as is possible by Loc8;
1. Be as easy to remember as a phone number.
2. Be uploadable and usable ASAP by the person at the address.
3. Be trusted by the person delivering to the address, be compatible with satnav, and have a checker built into the code which alerts to any error in transcription.
4. Be able to pinpoint any location, not just a building address.
5. Not cost the taxpayer millions to set up and maintain.
6. Be subdivided by a grid into cells which are labelled sequentially to adjacent cells (this is a tricky one). Multiple addresses in the same and neighbouring areas can then be bundled together for efficient delivery of services.
7. Using less digits gives larger cells. Therefore a person can choose to disclose only the rough area they live in, instead of their specific location.
8. Not cause offence to people by using a prefix based on the version of a placename they don't like.


Neither the original government proposed version nor the Go Code (nor the Nat Grid) would seem to satisfy all the requirements.

mackerski

recedite wrote: »

IMO the folowing are the basic requirements, and they are all fulfilled as well as is possible by Loc8;

I missed the requirement that it would be usable by providers of mapping and location-aware tools without either:

1. Charge
2. Reverse-engineering
3. Crowd-sourcing to build an open database from scratch

recedite

GoCoder wrote: »

Have you a particular expertise in the area? .

Loc8 Codes are Grid Coordinates - just in a form which people with no expertise can use without making a mistake and without being mistaken for something else

What are GoCodes?

Is the GoCode: 2222222 a phone number, a grid reference or something a ballet dancer wears?

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

This is not a correct statement.

Which bit do you object to? Please feel free to correct it.:)

GoCoder

mackerski wrote: »

I missed the requirement that it would be usable by providers of mapping and location-aware tools without either:

1. Charge
2. Reverse-engineering
3. Crowd-sourcing to build an open database from scratch

Do I understand from this Mackerski that you would want GO Code to be usable by providers of mapping and location-aware tools and that it would be provided to them free of charge, and you'd want a free database as well?

Or could you clarify?

redalicat

baalthor wrote: »

A US poster (Overheal I think) posted on this a few months ago: basically no-one in the US uses ZIP+4

Businesses in the US do, as did OCD people (like me:D). The Pitney Bowes system I worked when I lived there automatically inserted the +4 code on our business mailing list. In my experience, about 5% of my handwritten personal mail received from friends/family also had the +4 code. There was talk right before I moved to Ireland a few years back that the +4 would become mandatory in the US, but it would be fair to say that the general populous at that time didn't use the code or even notice it.

FWIW, it seemed to me that if I used the code, a piece of mail going across country got there quicker than if not. Not very scientific, I know.

GoCoder

recedite wrote: »

Loc8 Codes are Grid Coordinates - just in a form which people with no expertise can use without making a mistake and without being mistaken for something else

What are GoCodes?

Is the GoCode: 2222222 a phone number, a grid reference or something a ballet dancer wears?

Yes - we've heard that one before. :rolleyes:
I think you'll find that GO:222 2222 is not assigned to a building. It's in the middle of the sea. And you wouldn't be able to assign it to anything anyway, because of the way we've set up the system. Nor would you be able to use GO:969 6969 either in case you want to suggest that.

GO Codes are grid co-ordinates, and there is a checking system within it, built into the database. Also, if you have GO: in front of it as a standard prefix, which is what we're doing, then you shouldn't have any problem knowing what it is.

That's why having an open database system creates its own flaws and problems.

But since you're already a promoter of the Loc8 solution, I'm unlikely to change your mind, so all I can tell you is, GO use it.

mackerski

GoCoder wrote: »

Do I understand from this Mackerski that you would want GO Code to be usable by providers of mapping and location-aware tools and that it would be provided to them free of charge, and you'd want a free database as well?

Or could you clarify?

It is not for me to tell a commercial undertaking what they should do with the fruits of their labour. What I'm saying is that if a location (or post, go, loc8, whatever) code is to become a ubiquitous way of referring to one's location, that it is in the interest of users of the codes to have the ability to use the codes in an unproblematic way.

Today my address is made up of a number of elements:

A number, which is displayed on my door and which I am free to share with anybody I choose. Anybody wishing to create a map, navigation application or geographic database is free to walk up to my front door and, notwithstanding that he may not know who lives there, to record its location

I also have a street name, which is free to use in all of the foregoing ways.

Likewise my postal town.

Likewise my county

Likewise the fact that all of the above are in Ireland.

My front door also has a latitude and longitude which can also be cleanly derived by me or anybody else and used for any purpose whatsoever without payment.

Or I could use Irish Grid references, which some people have suggested may in fact be encumbered in some way due to OSI creation of the grid system. But hey, nobody was going to use that anyway, right?


But so far, my address can be easily interpreted by anybody with enough map or other geographic data to do so. I could do it with the aid of paid proprietary data like Geodirectory or the OSI Dublin Street guide, and I might pay a price to do so. I could chance my arm and hope that Google Maps would resolve it correctly. That wouldn't cost me anything directly, but Google have found ways to make money from my use of their service, more luck to them.

I can also use OpenStreetMap, a fine resource that delivers value to users by recording the addressing information above in useful ways. Due to the fact that all of the address data I mention above is public property, OSM can readily (effort required) record it and support geocoding, routing and other applications. This is a Good Thing (tm). And when postcodes (or other ubiquitous location codes) emerge, OSM will need to have those too in order to deliver value to users who have discovered the value in location codes. Indeed, it would be silly for OSM not to be able to use a ubiquitous code, what with the definition of "ubiquitous" and everything.

By now, anybody who thinks it's reasonable to control bulk use of ubiquitous location codes will see a snag. You have two goals (each valid and useful) coming directly into conflict. If a particular type of code is declared by its creators to be a copyright work or similarly protected, then open-data systems cannot use them in what I call the "sane" fashion. A sane way to use an algorithmically-defined code would be to use the algorithm. If you can't, you have to do what FreeThePostcode does in the UK - spend needless effort recreating cleanly something that already exists. Because a national resource like a postcode database is important enough to go to such effort.

So as to whether Go-codes should be opened up for such liberal use at no cost? Only if you want it to be the national standard co-ordinate system that everybody will quote on their address. Otherwise it's much less important.

GoCoder

mackerski wrote: »

It is not for me to tell a commercial undertaking what they should do with the fruits of their labour. What I'm saying is that if a location (or post, go, loc8, whatever) code is to become a ubiquitous way of referring to one's location, that it is in the interest of users of the codes to have the ability to use the codes in an unproblematic way.....

Ok. I understand now what you're saying. Thanks.

recedite

GoCoder wrote: »

I think you'll find that GO:222 2222 is not assigned to a building. It's in the middle of the sea. And you wouldn't be able to assign it to anything anyway, because of the way we've set up the system. Nor would you be able to use GO:969 6969 either in case you want to suggest that.

If 2222222 is in the sea, which it is, then it is assigned to something. I might want to tell someone about my favourite fishing spot.
9696969 is in the sea off Achill Island. 6969696 is on land east of Donegal.
Are you saying I can't use them?

If I was in another country, sending a letter or a parcel to Ireland, and I saw 2222222 or 6969696 or END WRLD written there, I would not recognise that as a postcode. They don't even look like they could be part of the same system. As you say it is necessary to use the prefix Go (which could be mistaken for Co.) But that brings it up to 9 digits.

I already said that the way Loc8 uses letters interspersed with numbers is not the easiest to memorise, but at least they have a consistent format.
And if I put in a letter where a number should be, or vice versa, I get an error message. The Go code website seems to accept any random combination and give a position. Its a nice website but I think the product needs more R&D.

GoCoder

recedite wrote: »

If 2222222 is in the sea, which it is, then it is assigned to something. I might want to tell someone about my favourite fishing spot.
9696969 is in the sea off Achill Island. 6969696 is on land east of Donegal.
Are you saying I can't use them?

If I was in another country, sending a letter or a parcel to Ireland, and I saw 2222222 or 6969696 or END WRLD written there, I would not recognise that as a postcode. They don't even look like they could be part of the same system. As you say it is necessary to use the prefix Go (which could be mistaken for Co.) But that brings it up to 9 digits.

I already said that the way Loc8 uses letters interspersed with numbers is not the easiest to memorise, but at least they have a consistent format.
And if I put in a letter where a number should be, or vice versa, I get an error message. The Go code website seems to accept any random combination and give a position. Its a nice website but I think the product needs more R&D.

So let's see if I've got this right. You want to tell someone your favourite fishing spot which is located only in a specific 4m x5 m point somewhere off the north coast of Ireland in the Atlantic?

Hmmm...Right. Could I suggest you use 2NA HERE instead for your fishing - it's a much better spot. Though you might want to use different bait.

There are some GO Codes which you cannot assign to things in our database, you've picked a couple of them. We've reserved those and some related sequences for other purposes, which I don't want to get into now, but will be part of another specialist product we're currently developing. They are but a very small fraction of the 2 billion codes available so nothing to fret about.

And you wouldn't be using the "examples" you gave as postcodes anyway for delivering a parcel since there isn't a building attached to them as we've already established in earlier posts.

GO is a standardised prefix - very like the good example you gave previously of 08 in mobile numbers. In a lot of circumstances, it will be prefilled in applications, in the new version of website, and other things we are developing. The number of characters in the actual GO code will be 7 or less. That's all you have to remember.

The GO Code site doesn't just any accept any random combination of characters. Certain characters can only be used in certain positions. And it also checks with database with the attached address where it relates to a verified building.

I'm going for my tea now.

Solair

Whatever system is chosen, I just hope they get it launched quickly. This project's already taking FAR too long. We should have had postal codes 30 years ago.

This needs to be launched yesterday!

ForiegnNational

mackerski wrote: »

Today my address is made up of a number of elements:

A number, which is displayed on my door and which I am free to share with anybody I choose. Anybody wishing to create a map, navigation application or geographic database is free to walk up to my front door and, notwithstanding that he may not know who lives there, to record its location

I also have a street name, which is free to use in all of the foregoing ways.

Likewise my postal town.

Likewise my county

Likewise the fact that all of the above are in Ireland.

That is lovely if you live in a named street in a town/village. It is less than ideal if you live in a one-off house (separate argument about the merits of those) on an un-named booreen in the middle of nowhere.

My "Postal Town" is about 6 miles away and in fact is further from my house that the nearest town with a Post Office!

I couldn't care less which system is best, as long as something is eventually put in place.

P.S. I have given up with www.epostcode.ie as these sites are better run than my part time effort

P.P.S. I am having issues with http://www.myloc8ion.com not allowing me to move the pointer around under firefox. Is anybody else having this problem?

mackerski

ForiegnNational wrote: »

That is lovely if you live in a named street in a town/village. It is less than ideal if you live in a one-off house (separate argument about the merits of those) on an un-named booreen in the middle of nowhere.

I never said it was ideal. I'm describing the elements that make up a standard urban postal address today and how each element is free to use for any purpose.

Having lived in a rural area for many years, I'm very familiar with the drawbacks of the townland-with-no-number approach. That said, addresses of that format too are free for reuse, though harder for a surveyor to identify without the participation of the resident or an out of copyright map.

ForiegnNational wrote: »

I couldn't care less which system is best, as long as something is eventually put in place.

Well, something will eventually be put in place, so I can set your mind at rest on that score. Some of us do care about how a postcode system should operate in order to deliver value to its users, so I'm sure you'll excuse us our discussion.

In the meantime, May I offer you the Mack code ABC 123, which you may use as a postcode from today (licence-free, I might add)? You might find it sub-optimal for your intended use, but you did say that a speedy implementation was more useful to you than a quality-driven selection process.

GoCoder

mackerski wrote: »

Well, something will eventually be put in place, so I can set your mind at rest on that score. Some of us do care about how a postcode system should operate in order to deliver value to its users, so I'm sure you'll excuse us our discussion.

In the meantime, May I offer you the Mack code ABC 123, which you may use as a postcode from today (licence-free, I might add)? You might find it sub-optimal for your intended use, but you did say that a speedy implementation was more useful to you than a quality-driven selection process.

Ouch!

mackerski wrote: »

If a particular type of code is declared by its creators to be a copyright work or similarly protected, then open-data systems cannot use them in what I call the "sane" fashion. A sane way to use an algorithmically-defined code would be to use the algorithm. If you can't, you have to do what FreeThePostcode does in the UK - spend needless effort recreating cleanly something that already exists. Because a national resource like a postcode database is important enough to go to such effort.

So as to whether Go-codes should be opened up for such liberal use at no cost? Only if you want it to be the national standard co-ordinate system that everybody will quote on their address. Otherwise it's much less important.

So let's say, Mackerski - hypothetically - that OSM were given a licence to use GO Code algorithm at no cost. What then? How would you want to use it? What else would you need? Would you want to give it to anyone else who wanted it? Do you see this working on a business model level, or just a free-share just cos it would be a Good Thing?

antoinolachtnai

I don't mean to but in on mackerski, but I would presume the answer to this is at

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ

and the relevant section reads:

"Approach the data owners, explain OSM, and seek written permission to licence their data under our licence or (for the avoidance of doubt) without any restrictions on use at all."

All this is hypothetical of course, but I am not sure how you can hold property rights in an algorithm (which could easily be reverse-engineered).

GoCoder

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I don't mean to but in on mackerski, but I would presume the answer to this is at

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ

and the relevant section reads:



All this is hypothetical of course, but I am not sure how you can hold property rights in an algorithm (which could easily be reverse-engineered).

Indeed. And, hypothetically, they could create one of their own. A number of people have already, as Foreign National attests above. This was partly the point of my questions. What's to gain, then?

antoinolachtnai

You mean, what is to gain for gocode by offering or not offering a licence such that OSM could incorporate it?

GoCoder

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You mean, what is to gain for gocode by offering or not offering a licence such that OSM could incorporate it?

Well both parties actually. Given what you've said previously, what have OSM to gain? Why not do it themselves? What would they gain from getting a licence to incorporate GO Code?

antoinolachtnai

Well, by having the licence, it would mean they would not have to worry about any possibility of them being in breach of Gocodes' rights.

GoCoder

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, by having the licence, it would mean they would not have to worry about any possibility of them being in breach of Gocodes' rights.

Ok - I'm obviously not making myself clear.

Forget the licence. What's the gain from incorporating GO Code as opposed to doing it themselves? Go back to the questions I put to Mackerski - who I understand is an OSM proponent.

What then? How would OSM want to use it? What else would they need? Would they want to give it to anyone else who wanted it? Do they see this working on a business model level, or just a free-share just cos it would be a Good Thing?

I realise you can't speak for Mackerski, and you didn't mean to butt in ....

antoinolachtnai

I can't speak for mackerski but my understanding:

GoCoder wrote: »

Ok - I'm obviously not making myself clear.

Genuinely, I'm not sure what you mean. Let me try and answer what I think OSM would think.

Forget the licence. What's the gain from incorporating GO Code as opposed to doing it themselves?

Do you mean 'Why would they use the GO code instead of developing their own code?'

Answer to this might be: They will not develop their own code because it is not part of their mission. They will incorporate a widely used and recognised code code because it is widely used, in the same way they might incorporate a placename or a town name - because it is widely used.

Go back to the questions I put to Mackerski - who I understand is an OSM proponent.

What then? How would OSM want to use it?

They would relicense it to other people who would use it whatever way they wished, subject to the CC-SA licence.They would not be able to give you any reassurances as to how it would be used.

What else would they need?

What else is there?

Would they want to give it to anyone else who wanted it?

Yes, anyone willing to abide by the CC-SA licence.

Do they see this working on a business model level, or just a free-share just cos it would be a Good Thing?

If you mean you are wondering whether they will do some sort of commercial deal with GO Code, then the answer would appear to be 'no'. Because of the licensing situation, OSM just doesn't have the legal capacity to enter that sort of arrangement.

That said, maybe you could come up with some arrangement whereby codes up to a certain resolution are free, and codes of finer resolution would be paid-for (and OSM therefore wouldn't use them).

It might help if you could explain exactly what Go Code's business model is or is intended to be. It may be that OSM simply doesn't fit with the GO Code model, and obviously that is fair enough. (But there will be similar problems trying to get the likes of Navteq and Mapinfo to sign up. These companies are not going to be willing to pay much to license an algorithm for a country the size of Ireland and they will not easily accept restrictions on its use)

mackerski

GoCoder wrote: »

Well both parties actually. Given what you've said previously, what have OSM to gain? Why not do it themselves? What would they gain from getting a licence to incorporate GO Code?

In answer to your earlier question, it is fundamental to OSM that any and all comers can use the data therein for anything at all consistent with the overall OSM licence which today is Creative Commons with attribution and share alike. Put differently, anything that goes in can always be freely used on the same terms as any other part of the map.

As to what there is to gain by supporting any given coding system, there is only precedent (that I know of) for supporting national postcodes. The reason these are desirable is obvious - it allows for useful self-sufficient geocoding of addresses (that is, doing so with reference only to the OSM database). Postcode schemes that are both complex and proprietary (the UK scheme being the obvious example) have been troublesome, giving rise to disruptive projects like FreeThePostcode. Many European countries, and the US if we consider standard 5-digit ZIP, have postcode areas that are chunky enough to map in simpler ways, even if the postcode database is in theory proprietary (in Germany, for instance, postcodes tend to follow Municipal boundaries which are themselves well-marked on the ground).

How to support any given coding scheme in OSM depends on the circumstances. For "coarse" European-style postcode areas you would store an area boundary. Even for UK postcodes you can do the same - the half street that PT1 1AA might refer to is actually a collection of discrete land parcels.

When it's a co-ordinate system that can yield arbitrarily many codes it gets harder. Do you, say, pick a 10m grid and attempt to store the code for each point on it? That seems ugly and what if the house you want is 5m off a reference point and has a code that doesn't obviously relate to those nearby? This is why I said above that an algorithmic code is better handled by application of the algorithm, not by attempting to build a parallel database of all the interesting locations and their codes.

antoinolachtnai

It is worth saying that the UK Postcode, famed for its closed-ness and complexity (though it has many other positive features) is now available under a creative commons compatible licence (see http://www.freepostcodes.org.uk/).

In the light of this, I do not think it would be sustainable to launch a postcode in Ireland which was not largely available under a CC-compatible licence.

jetpack101

I have my Loc8 codes for my business and my home address. I have also set it up for most of my family.

They all think its a load of crap until you go to there address on Loc8code.com then its all "thats brilliant"

As for the postal service, I don't see what any of this has to do with them. You would still put the full address on a letter with the addition of the Loc8 code.

All they have to do is ignore the last bit.

What I'm more interested in is when it will be available for Android phones. Android is one of the fastest growing platforms for mobile devices with almost every company incorporating an Android device in there range.

I myself have the Samsung Galaxy S with Google maps as my satnav. It would be nice to see Loc8 installed on an Android Platform with Google Maps.

The more devices that have it installed the more the government will be forced to use that service.

I can't see what the post code system has to do with the gov anyway. No one can stop me putting a little code on the bottom of all my post. If you don't want to use it then don't. But you can be pretty sure they will when there standing in the middle of nowhere looking for an address and all they have to do is enter a little code to solve there problem.

GoCoder

jetpack101 wrote: »

What I'm more interested in is when it will be available for Android phones. Android is one of the fastest growing platforms for mobile devices with almost every company incorporating an Android device in there range.

I myself have the Samsung Galaxy S with Google maps as my satnav.

The more devices that have it installed the more the government will be forced to use that service.

Jetpack - GO Codes are already available on mobile as well as satnav. Here's some of the mobiles on which our app runs or is currently trialling according to our tech people:

All current Blackberries (Other than Storm I/II) (using Blackberry O/S 4.5 or later);
All current Nokia's Series 40 phones (min. screen size 240 x 320 pixels and support MIDP 2.0 or later);
All current Nokia Series 60 phones (support Symbian 9.0 or later);
All current Samsungs (min. screen size 240 x 320 pixels and support MIDP 2.0 or later);
Samsung Bada
Samsung Galaxy-S Android
iPhone 3GS/4

There'll be further Android handsets added to the list over the next few weeks following testing. They will also be linked to the on-phone maps.

Except for iPhone (which has GO Code on the App Store), you enter www.gocode.ie/app into your phone's web browser and it downloads the app if your phone is compatible.

Comments/queries to feedback@gocode.ie

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

jetpack101

GoCoder wrote: »

Jetpack - GO Codes are already available on mobile as well as satnav. Here's some of the mobiles on which our app runs or is currently trialling according to our tech people:

I searched the Android App's market and can't find any reference's to GO Codes.

Condi wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Like everything else they do!!!!
The first thing they will do id put a committee on it and having 30 people all trying to put there little spin on it will completely kill it.

I feel this is really something we could take out of there hands and force them to go with a set system.

GoCoder

jetpack101 wrote: »

I searched the Android App's market and can't find any reference's to GO Codes.

Jetpack - it's not on Android app market yet. if you read my earlier post again, you'll see the link for your phone's browser that I posted to download app if your Android phone model is compatible.

antoinolachtnai

jetpack101 wrote: »

I feel this is really something we could take out of there hands and force them to go with a set system.

Before making a decision on anything to do with this, it really is important to understand who 'owns' any code and the licensing and intellectual property issues involved. Otherwise a hasty decision could turn out to be very expensive.

D'Peoples Voice

GoCoder wrote: »

Jetpack - it's not on Android app market yet. if you read my earlier post again, you'll see the link for your phone's browser that I posted to download app if your Android phone model is compatible.

I assume then GOCoder that you are still testing the HTC Desire Android phone,
and you will have this application available in the near future.
I have downloaded the Multimap application from RadonSoft for Android, and the one application allows me to choose any of Google Maps, Open StreetMap, OPenCycleMap, OpenSeaMap, OpenOMStreet,
so if i had the ability to search for a postcode, that would be class!:rolleyes:

jetpack101

GoCoder wrote: »

Jetpack - it's not on Android app market yet. if you read my earlier post again, you'll see the link for your phone's browser that I posted to download app if your Android phone model is compatible.

I tried getting into the link www.gocode.ie/app and I get the following message.
"Application can only be accessed from a mobile phone"

I'm using the Samsung Galaxy S

GoCoder

jetpack101 wrote: »

I tried getting into the link www.gocode.ie/app and I get the following message.
"Application can only be accessed from a mobile phone"

I'm using the Samsung Galaxy S

Jetpack - can you PM me on this, as it's not relevant to the Board discussion?

Thanks

jetpack101

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Before making a decision on anything to do with this, it really is important to understand who 'owns' any code and the licensing and intellectual property issues involved. Otherwise a hasty decision could turn out to be very expensive.

I agree ... but on the flip side, we could be going around in circles constantly putting up barriers and the end result is what we have now...... no post code or easy way to navigate to a location.

While I do think that giving the government full access to the code could secure a system, it could be a recipe for disaster. You can be pretty sure that someone somewhere in the government departments will want to put there stamp on it and in the process completely mess up the system.

Its not always a bad thing to keep the government out of the picture. Look at Microsoft. I know it might look like a bad example but the vast majority of us use some form of MS software and thats global.

Also take the forum we are discussing this on. The internet and all it has to offer is a wonderful thing and not a government official in site

There are lots of things we use in our day to day lives that the Government had no hand or part in. I would even go as far to say that the things that work well (or reasonably well) are all the things the government had nothing to do with.

Del2005

jetpack101 wrote: »

Also take the forum we are discussing this on. The internet and all it has to offer is a wonderful thing and not a government official in site

There are lots of things we use in our day to day lives that the Government had no hand or part in. I would even go as far to say that the things that work well (or reasonably well) are all the things the government had nothing to do with.

The US government invented the internet and then let it run free, but now they are trying to take control back.