Metro North...What's happening??

Liam2012

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

What is your point exactly, and do you have anything to contribute to the thread's topic? You've been told that the poster is indeed the TD Alan Farrell and where he resides is irrelevant.

Apologies for my lack of contribution. I think it looks great and as a resident of Swords it is long overdue. Like everyone else we've down this road before and I'll believe it when I see it. I'm also sceptical of the timing of this announcement, just before an election. So I don't really have anything different to add.

I just find it very cynical that a local TD who is in real danger of losing his seat in a constituency that regularly returns new TDs will join this thread to ride on the coat tails of a government announcement that we've heard before, many times. If he lies to us about his location then how can he be trusted? I see his constituency office is in Malahide and that he's originally from Malahide but including Malahide as his location in his profile is misleading.

Apologies if this is off-thread, I don't want to de-rail (pun intended) the feel-good factor.

The Hill Billy

I've confirmed that Alan Farrell is who says who he is. End of story.
If you have any further issues with this take it to PM me.
If you want to discuss local politicians in a civil manner - start a new thread.

Back on-topic - ie, Metro North.

tHB

rubberdiddies

Alan I agree that you posting here is a positive so keep it up. I'm sure we'll be seeing more of your posts before the November election

However, the dogs on the street know that this is simply an election stunt. 75% or so of this announcement was all previously announced work. So very little new there. Just repackaged to try to 'fool' the electorate a little.

I really don't think Metro North will ever happen. Why leave the start until 2021? FG will blame planning applications etc for that but it's no excuse. Those dates just buy them time to avoid it.

LeinsterDub

Alan Farrell wrote: »

. Proximity to the election is merely a result of the rolling nature of the national Capital plans.

At least we see some rolling stock in the next 20 years . The constantly rolling transport plans


Also Alan would you agree this effectively kills our 2023 WRC bid (like it forced the Web summit out) and all the money , jobs and long term positivity this would of bought to Ireland ?

LeinsterDub

DrFroggies wrote: »

Hi Folks,

Does anyone know what the craic is with Metro North? Been looking at Transport 21 website and RPA website and from what i can make out there's not been much progress lately.

Is it still due to be completed by 2013 as was stated in 2008 (by Noel Dempsey i think) and when exactly do they intend to break ground?

Has anyone heard if the current economic situation has stalled the process?

Also does anyone know where i can find that media thing showing the stations etc)? it was like a little animated film going from St Stephens Green trough to O'Connell St etc - it used to be on the Transport 21 website but i can't find it any more.

Cheers
DrF.

I've put this post on the Dublin City thread as well...

Opening post of this thread saying is all instead on being on board a underground to the Airport now it's 7 years before a sod is turned *


* a sod will never be turned it's all election lies

The Hill Billy

LeinsterDub wrote: »

...would you agree this effectively kills our 2023 WRC bid (like it forced the Web summit out) and all the money , jobs and long term positivity this would of bought to Ireland ?

Let's keep it local please. If you wish to discuss potential impacts to WRC 2023 & the Web Summit heading off to sunnier & cheaper climes with working wifi - please start a thread in the Infrastructure or some other more suitable forum.

Thanks,

tHB

Infini

Alan Farrell wrote: »

Hi McAlban,

This would not be the case as the capital plan announced in previous years did not include a budget allocation, just money from the Department toward the planning costs. On this occasion we have put the allocation up front to allow for the planning and design process, a planning application and enabling works in relatively short order.

I would have to assume that any Government that shelves a plan such as this, an economic driver in itself, would be very foolish. Most especially considering it has been on the cards since 1972.

The north city and county requires this in order to develop in an orderly fashion.

Yeah but tbh the whole way this has gone has been a Joke. DU shouldve been given priority over this metro. I mean think about it. The metro is basically a oversized luas but completely isolated from the other 2 systems. Stock and everything will go into this that cannot be used on other things. I mean if they went with DU it basically was ready to go and on top of that it would've benefited the ENTIRE Dublin region because the whole point of it was to remove the Connolly Bottleneck by splitting the lines into 2 major routes. By next year 3 different lines (Northern/Hazelhatch/Maynooth) traffic are gonna be converging on a single line from Connolly to Bray which bogs down the whole system long term.

If were gonna be building new lines like this it should be a heavy rail project because you can use the existing system and stock as well as getting new stock and on top of that that can be switched as neccessary and if its designed from the start to be profitable by running it through high density areas then it pays back in the long term and doesnt suffer the same cost issues like the waste thats the WRC and the legacy costs that are associated with maintaining a rail network through low density regions.

Ultimately as far as I can see this whole metro was raised from the dead as a pre-election gimmick. A system thats isolated from both luas and heavy rail and wont even begin getting built till the election after the election is just a joke. We shouldn't be building vanity projects like this anymore but stuff that gives both high flexibility and capacity. A glorified tram to the Airport isnt the answer and I feel like everything else that goes on in this country itll end up being made a mess of in the long term.

Alan Farrell

Infini2 wrote: »

Yeah but tbh the whole way this has gone has been a Joke. DU shouldve been given priority over this metro. I mean think about it. The metro is basically a oversized luas but completely isolated from the other 2 systems. Stock and everything will go into this that cannot be used on other things. I mean if they went with DU it basically was ready to go and on top of that it would've benefited the ENTIRE Dublin region because the whole point of it was to remove the Connolly Bottleneck by splitting the lines into 2 major routes. By next year 3 different lines (Northern/Hazelhatch/Maynooth) traffic are gonna be converging on a single line from Connolly to Bray which bogs down the whole system long term.

If were gonna be building new lines like this it should be a heavy rail project because you can use the existing system and stock as well as getting new stock and on top of that that can be switched as neccessary and if its designed from the start to be profitable by running it through high density areas then it pays back in the long term and doesnt suffer the same cost issues like the waste thats the WRC and the legacy costs that are associated with maintaining a rail network through low density regions.

Ultimately as far as I can see this whole metro was raised from the dead as a pre-election gimmick. A system thats isolated from both luas and heavy rail and wont even begin getting built till the election after the election is just a joke. We shouldn't be building vanity projects like this anymore but stuff that gives both high flexibility and capacity. A glorified tram to the Airport isnt the answer and I feel like everything else that goes on in this country itll end up being made a mess of in the long term.

You are of course entitled to your view. I don't agree.

Please check back the National Capital Plan dates to confirm that they are cyclical and not related to elections.

I'll repeat the fact that, in 2011 this plan was shelved. We said it would be reviewed and it was. The money is there and despite the best efforts of some, this is positive for everyone in the north county.

I can't comment on Dart Underground as it is not in my constituency and hasn't formed part of my transport thinking as I have been focusing on capacity for the stations within my constituency, Metro and other additional services like BRT and how they might help commuters in the North County.

The planning process for Metro is an unfortunate delay but of course entirely necessary. With the experience of BXD (LUAS Cross City) we now know the type of timeframe which can be expected for planning. That clearly isn't great news for the North County but once the planning is passed, we can expect construction in short order thereafter.

martinn123

Alan Farrell wrote: »

You are of course entitled to your view. I don't agree.

Please check back the National Capital Plan dates to confirm that they are cyclical and not related to elections.

I'll repeat the fact that, in 2011 this plan was shelved. We said it would be reviewed and it was.

Alan, please, there are no coincidences in Politics

Capital Plans are scheduled to allow politicians like yourself to champion in election literature the expenditure locally

Then once the Election is over, the ''Plan'' is subject to Post Election bargaining, depending on the outcome.

Can you check your Election Literature for the last election what was said about ''Metro North''

ALL parties were aware at the time of the state of public finances, and after the Election the Plan was deferred ( a correct decision )

So do not expect the Electorate of DCN to swallow your line that the Capital Plan, is not scheduled to be conveniently a few months before an Election.

Alan Farrell

martinn123 wrote: »

Alan, please, there are no coincidences in Politics

...

Can you check your Election Literature for the last election what was said about ''Metro North''

...

I think you'll find that Capital Plans are out of sync with elections. In fact, the transport element of the current capital plan is seven years, therefore it will most likely straddle two terms of Government, perhaps even three.

Of course, they are subject to small changes, additions etc, dependent on public finances, as we saw with the 2010 Plan. However, I think its fair to say that given our current economic position, we will see expenditure away above the planning costs incurred from 2007-2010 in a far shorter period. I would expect the planning process to commence in the next six months. (I'll be asking in the Dail next week.)

I did not mention Metro North in my personal leaflets in 2010 or 2011. It may have been mentioned in leaflets for both the Minister and I but I had no hand in their production.

I didn't, for example, erect posters on the matter. :rolleyes:

Alan Farrell

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Where does this leave the silly bus idea? Like we need more buses as an alternative.

I think for fg and labour they can't lose with this. They can canvas that they put it back on the plans (long finger). And if ff/sf try to shelve it next time they'll be cruxified.

Anyway if you are going to spend 2.5bn of our taxes, at least spend it on cap ex. It will boost employment once it starts.

Sorry Arthur, I missed your post.

The Swiftway project is still on the cards for the other locations chosen by the NTA. I understand however that further enabling works (planning/consultation etc) for the Swords route has been paused, pending the outcome of the planning process for Metro.

I agree regarding the makeup of the next Government or the one thereafter, if anyone shelves this proposal, I can only imagine that the electorate will be less than forgiving. Its over 40 years in the pipeline.

DrFroggies

Wow...got a message in my inbox about this thread (which oddly I can't see now) and just realised my original post was in 2009!!

8 years ago...almost a decade of potential progress wasted.

Like (I'm sure) many people following this thread my life has changed dramatically in those extraordinarily tough intervening years.

And still no Metro! Lots of words but no actual physical movement.

Recessions, Brexit, the situation on the other side of the Atlantic and all other predictable and unpredictable happenings will continue to manifest as they always have but it doesn't change the infrastructural requirements of a progressive country - and somehow the truly incredible absurdity of the Metro North story feels emblematic of our repetitive political splutterings, misfires and tall stories with endings that lead nowhere.

Spectacular infrastructural inactivity.

And to make it even more bizarre I read today something about extending the still non-existent Metro North line toward (did it say as far as?) Sandyford and Wicklow...as some kind of melding with the Luas Green line.

By the time it's finally completed it will already be too little too late...although we dare not say that too loudly lest some newly appointed decision maker might agree and pull the whole thing back another generation to re-consider the logistics.

I'm glad they got around to Luas Cross City but having lived in various parts of Dublin (and other cities around the world) I'm very aware of how much an area is or is not in need of a given service and I really believe the need for Metro North was and is more urgent.

As for any bewildering notion that some reconsideration might be needed to attach this desperately needed service (Metro North: City Centre to Swords) to a region already amply provided for (South Dublin: Luas Green Line route)...well...it doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

A sad thing really.

It would be nice if they just got on with the doing...and stopped the endless variant considerations and talking.

Stheno

DrFroggies wrote: »

Wow...got a message in my inbox about this thread (which oddly I can't see now) and just realised my original post was in 2009!!

8 years ago...almost a decade of potential progress wasted.

Like (I'm sure) many people following this thread my life has changed dramatically in those extraordinarily tough intervening years.

And still no Metro! Lots of words but no actual physical movement.

Recessions, Brexit, the situation on the other side of the Atlantic and all other predictable and unpredictable happenings will continue to manifest as they always have but it doesn't change the infrastructural requirements of a progressive country - and somehow the truly incredible absurdity of the Metro North story feels emblematic of our repetitive political splutterings, misfires and tall stories with endings that lead nowhere.

Spectacular infrastructural inactivity.

And to make it even more bizarre I read today something about extending the still non-existent Metro North line toward (did it say as far as?) Sandyford and Wicklow...as some kind of melding with the Luas Green line.

By the time it's finally completed it will already be too little too late...although we dare not say that too loudly lest some newly appointed decision maker might agree and pull the whole thing back another generation to re-consider the logistics.

I'm glad they got around to Luas Cross City but having lived in various parts of Dublin (and other cities around the world) I'm very aware of how much an area is or is not in need of a given service and I really believe the need for Metro North was and is more urgent.

As for any bewildering notion that some reconsideration might be needed to attach this desperately needed service (Metro North: City Centre to Swords) to a region already amply provided for (South Dublin: Luas Green Line route)...well...it doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

A sad thing really.

It would be nice if they just got on with the doing...and stopped the endless variant considerations and talking.

Apparently it's on the cards to Stephens Green for 2025 which would like it with the Luas lines and Conolly

DrFroggies

Stheno wrote: »

Apparently it's on the cards to Stephens Green for 2025 which would like it with the Luas lines and Conolly

Aye and it's great (and vital) to have everything linked but it was always supposed to run to Stephens Green...it is the following that bewilders me:

"And it's understood the National Transport Authority is examining if some of the line can be built above ground to cut costs, and considering scrapping a few stops around O'Connell Street and redesigning the system to take in the Luas Green Line, the Irish Independent reports....The upgrade would mean passengers could travel from Swords to St Stephen's Green on Metro North. But instead of the line ending there, it would come above ground between the Green and Ranelagh - before continuing on to Sandyford on the Green Line route."

http://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/luas-green-line-could-finally-12561279

All very well and good but more time potentially wasted mulling this one over and if any of the stops they plan on 'scrapping' are being scrapped in favour of extension along the Luas line...its just seems farcical.

I also see that the hoped for '2 years earlier' speculation is now dashed as well.

http://www.dublinpeople.com/news/northsidewest/articles/2017/02/06/4134318-hopes-of-an--earlier-metro-north-dashed/

dublinman1990

DrFroggies wrote: »

http://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/luas-green-line-could-finally-12561279

^^^^^^^^

LUAS GREEN LINE COULD FINALLY GET EXTENDED TO SANDYFORD?????

Oh I heard it all now

Have we been stuck in a timewarp with these journos or something. :rolleyes:

plodder

DrFroggies wrote: »

Aye and it's great (and vital) to have everything linked but it was always supposed to run to Stephens Green...it is the following that bewilders me:

"And it's understood the National Transport Authority is examining if some of the line can be built above ground to cut costs, and considering scrapping a few stops around O'Connell Street and redesigning the system to take in the Luas Green Line, the Irish Independent reports....The upgrade would mean passengers could travel from Swords to St Stephen's Green on Metro North. But instead of the line ending there, it would come above ground between the Green and Ranelagh - before continuing on to Sandyford on the Green Line route."

http://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/luas-green-line-could-finally-12561279

All very well and good but more time potentially wasted mulling this one over and if any of the stops they plan on 'scrapping' are being scrapped in favour of extension along the Luas line...its just seems farcical.

I also see that the hoped for '2 years earlier' speculation is now dashed as well.

http://www.dublinpeople.com/news/northsidewest/articles/2017/02/06/4134318-hopes-of-an--earlier-metro-north-dashed/

I don't follow that either. What's wrong with just changing from Metro North to Luas at Stephen's Green?

I don't know why they don't just go ahead with the original plan. It's ready to go. This extension could be added on later if it's really needed. As for dropping stops, it's like the 100% efficient hospital - that has no patients. It's a false economy.

jwwb

Hopes of an earlier Metro North dashed

http://www.dublinpeople.com/news/northsidewest/articles/2017/02/06/4134318-hopes-of-an--earlier-metro-north-dashed/

Dizzyblonde

That's such a pity.

plodder

Some news relating to Metro North (now confusingly called Metro-link) in today's Irish Times.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-metro-stops-revealed-maps-show-location-of-stations-1.3400567

Drumcondra stop has been moved to Phibsborough (Cross Guns bridge) and the part around Swords is to be an elevated structure. Underground section starts near Airside now (Fosterstown) and continues underground all the way to Charlemont/Ranelagh where it links to the current Luas Green line.

Dizzyblonde

Fingers crossed it'll actually happen in our lifetime

DrFroggies

plodder wrote: »

Some news relating to Metro North (now confusingly called Metro-link) in today's Irish Times.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-metro-stops-revealed-maps-show-location-of-stations-1.3400567

Drumcondra stop has been moved to Phibsborough (Cross Guns bridge) and the part around Swords is to be an elevated structure. Underground section starts near Airside now (Fosterstown) and continues underground all the way to Charlemont/Ranelagh where it links to the current Luas Green line.

Not sure what the point of them moving the Drumcondra stop to Cross Guns Bridge is? But I think that's fine it doesn't seem to be something that will see them delaying things too much.

Changing the name is pretty silly in my opinion but whatever...it was inevitable I suppose...each party in power want's to make sure they're putting their own stamp on it.

Think the longer stretch underground is a wise decision I just worry it will be a case of 'now we have to have another hundred consultations over the next 15 years to decide whether this is feasible or not' conversations etc etc.

Relieved to see it's more a case of just updating the Green line rather than building a whole new comprehensive network to cover an already excellent service...However I think that this part should not be considered part of the Metro North/Link project but a separate project in it's own right especially if that's been included in the 3bn cost. I'd prefer to see a commitment to Metro North/Link as a project at a cost of 2.5bn and 'we're also planning to upgrade the Luas Green Line at a cost of 500mil with a view to linking both services' - Now that might sound silly but again every little extra consideration on this project seems to just lead to further delay.

What does concern me is the reference to 10 years...last I remember the speculation was that it would begin in 2021 and would be complete by 2027 but now I'm wondering if they're suggesting a completion date of 2031...that would be disgraceful.

What I'd like to hear is that it's been bumped up to begin in 2019 with completion in 2025 and the further extension on the Green line completed by 2027...all still woefully late and more of a shameful late delivery than celebrated achievement even if they managed to get it done by then - as Dublin continues to clog up year on year.

As always nothing is happening until we see the digging start...but lets hope!

plodder

Public consultation for this is underway. I think people living in Swords, particularly anyone living near the route would want to get involved as there is a big decision to make about whether the section around Swords is elevated (on stilts) or at ground level (and underground at the Pavilions). The first option seems to be preferred, but I'm not sure it's what I'd want if I lived near there.

http://www.metrolink.ie/#/public-consultation (only two dates left incl. today for public sessions on Northside)

The consultation document

http://data.tii.ie/metrolink/metrolink-nta-tii-public-consultation-document.pdf

DrFroggies

plodder wrote: »

Public consultation for this is underway. I think people living in Swords, particularly anyone living near the route would want to get involved as there is a big decision to make about whether the section around Swords is elevated (on stilts) or at ground level (and underground at the Pavilions). The first option seems to be preferred, but I'm not sure it's what I'd want if I lived near there.

http://www.metrolink.ie/#/public-consultation (only two dates left incl. today for public sessions on Northside)

The consultation document

http://data.tii.ie/metrolink/metrolink-nta-tii-public-consultation-document.pdf

It's a pity I missed this closing date. Actually not sure though which would be better ground level or elevated?

Can't imagine the elevated option would be two popular with people who may have gardens and houses along the dual carriageway but then I wouldn't like to lose a lane on the road either and I'm not sure the central median would be wide enough on it's own - although I suppose the same could be said for the central median after Pinnock hill.

As I've said before it will be great if they do it this time but I gotta say (also once again probably) it may well be too little too late judging by the mess they made of the cross city Luas and the over crowding of the Green Line (a victim of it's own success in a country where the powers that be routinely prove themselves lacking in any progressive structural foresight)...it will be interesting to see how it unfolds...I'm looking forward to the next previs graphic if nothing else!

dylbert

Someone made a good point on the radio the other day, would it not make sense to continue the line a couple of miles from Swords to Donabate and link up with the rail line to Belfast.

pinkypinky

It's going to undergo revision anyway. There's no way they'll get away with digging up Na Fianna's pitches for several years beside a couple of schools.

I won't believe it's actually happening until they start cracking the ground open.

plodder

The plans have been updated to deal with most of the major objections. Biggest change in the Swords area it seems is to move the section along the bypass into a cutting below ground level on the side of the bypass instead of an elevated structure in the median of the bypass, which is good news. Also, it looks like the route does something similar along the edge of Balheary park.

New round of consultation about to start

The link above has a document that shows the new route and more detailed plans of the stations.

The Hill Billy

There's a good Twitter thread here...
https://twitter.com/__kbaker__/status/1110582500257136640?s=09

plodder

Fingal County Council, County Hall, Main Street, Swords, K67 X8Y2, Tuesday 16 April 2pm-8pm

Consultation next Tuesday in Swords. Would be great to get loads of people in there, even if you haven't read up on it beforehand I'd say it will be a good way to find out about the plan.

DrFroggies

Yeah gonna try to get to that consultation to see what's what at this stage.


Glad they're going underground at dual carriageway though.


All looks likely to go ahead now but I'm sure Brexit will be the next excuse to delay the project.


But who knows there's a kind of feeling that it actually is going ahead this time...as I've said before it will still in all likelihood be too little too late.



At least it will be a start though!

plodder

DrFroggies wrote: »

Yeah gonna try to get to that consultation to see what's what at this stage.


Glad they're going underground at dual carriageway though.

Might not be 100% clear to everyone, but it's physically below ground level, so underground in that sense, but it won't be covered along the dual carriageway except at specific places like road-crossings, which is why they call it a "cutting" rather than underground in the normal sense.

All looks likely to go ahead now but I'm sure Brexit will be the next excuse to delay the project.

But who knows there's a kind of feeling that it actually is going ahead this time...

I really hope so, and I hope that the people of Swords will engage with the consultation and start to put pressure on politicians to deliver it.