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M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    From this weeks trib on the Gort Tuam PPP contract.

    http://www.galwaynews.ie/7488-developers-clamour-%E2%82%AC500-million-ppp-contract
    It has been learned by The Connacht Tribune that at least six consortia of builders and financial institutions have responded to the expressions of interest in the project which were sought by the National Roads Authority.

    And it is expected that an intensive dialogue process will commence within the next few weeks with representatives from the interested parties with a view to shortlisting the applicants
    before the end of the year.

    It is also understood that the majority of those who expressed an interest in this huge undertaking are from overseas where access to finance for such significant roads projects is easier to acquire than it is in this country at the moment.

    My my , I am surprised that there were 6 consortia and not at all surprised that very few comprise significant interests of Irish companies or Irish banks.

    Spanish and Portugese I would suspect . Sure no matter, they will hire loats of locals to drive them diggers .




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Hey if it gets this thing moving then all the better. There was loads of interest in this

    AFAIK they're still looking for a 2011 start with a 2013 road opening.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    The sunday business post has a good article on it. Initially it is expected to cost 500million by the NRA which wasnt far off my expected cost. It has received bids from here and abroad.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    The National Roads Authority (NRA) has recieved bids from six consortiums for the construction of one of the country's largest single road projects.
    The 58-kilometre dual carriageway for Gort to Tuam in Co Galway is expected to cost in the region of 500 million and the winning contract to build it will be announced in November. Construction will not start until autumn next year.

    There has been "significant interest" from Irish and foreign companies in the contract, accodrding to NRA spokesman Sean O' Neill.
    The road - which will be renamed the M17 on completion - will bypass the town of Tuam. A seperate Tuam to Claremorris road project is in the planning stage.

    The bids from six consortiums are currently being examined in the pre-qualification stage, and the shortlist next month will be announced. A drop of a least 20 per cent in land values and raw materials is expected to achieve significant cost savings for the bidders.

    O'Neill said that, given its size and the slowdown in infrastructure projects across Europe, the NRA was pleased with the response. "The authority still has large projects ongoing and has a continued commitment to these," he said. "In todays environment, there is great value to be had for the taxpayer, because of a highly competitive environment".

    Hardly unexpected but I guess pension funds will be provided for this. The only question is why next autumn?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Land values arent the big deal in this as Gort - Athenry was CPOed right at the peak :(

    Edit: Cos these are only prequalification tenders. The actual tender comes soon. But PPPs are strange things, never get going as quickly as normal ones.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Land values arent the big deal in this as Gort - Athenry was CPOed right at the peak :(

    Edit: Cos these are only prequalification tenders. The actual tender comes soon. But PPPs are strange things, never get going as quickly as normal ones.

    Thought it might be a bit quicker if pension funds would be used to finance it(not certain yet but..) as they dont have to wait to set a timeline for pending funding request after the contractor is announced. Yeah would really like to see a start on this very soon IF it does ever start construction!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Nah this is definately PPP funded now so AFAIK pension funds wouldnt be use to fund it as it wont be a government project. I **guess** that the pension funds would go into Interconnector, Metro North etc.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    If they build Rathmorrissey as a roundabout then we truly, truly do not understand how to build road infrastructure in this country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Rathmorrisey is still a roundabout and yes in NRA speak a three level stack is a "free-flow" junction.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Judging by the amount of consortium bids for this project a similar if not even more interest will be had in the future M20. A huge project which will tempt alot of foreign consortiums. How reliable these consortiums are, will be examined well I would imagine. Also no toll on the road is a huge plus. I guess the main thing now is that the tenders come in below expected cost and we should see this scheme going ahead easily.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭rekrow


    Rathmorrisey is still a roundabout and yes in NRA speak a three level stack is a "free-flow" junction.

    Does anyone know if this junction is being built as part of the M6 or the N17/18 project. Hope it is the M6. Last thing that is needed after getting the new M6 is lane and speed restrictions while they build the new junction.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    rekrow wrote: »
    Does anyone know if this junction is being built as part of the M6 or the N17/18 project. Hope it is the M6. Last thing that is needed after getting the new M6 is lane and speed restrictions while they build the new junction.

    It's being built as part of the M17/M18 project. I don't know if provisions have been made on the M6 for it, but hopefully they have.

    I don't see why they can't go for a better design. Most alternate designs will take up the same amount of space, cause the same amount of visual impact, cost only a moderate amount more, BUT have much better traffic flows and prevent the need for a costly upgrade in the future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭rekrow


    But if it is all completed the first time then it removes work for the NRA down the road.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    If the M6/M17/M18 Rathmorrissey interchange is built as a 3 level stacked roundabout, than the NRA will have learned nothing, absolutely nothing from the mistakes they made in the UK in the 1960s and 1970s.:mad:

    It's n ot as if land availability is a problem in rural county Galway. Surely for the same amount of money they could build a Whirlpool or a M50 upgrade type Partial cloverleaf?:(


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    It's n ot as if land availability is a problem in rural county Galway. Surely for the same amount of money they could build a Whirlpool or a M50 upgrade type Partial cloverleaf?:(

    of course we cant. god that would be the smart thing 2 do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Cheaper and less land take. Simple as that.

    TBH at this stage I'd rather it get built with the crappy junction rather than wait ages for the whole scheme while its redesigned.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    If the M6/M17/M18 Rathmorrissey interchange is built as a 3 level stacked roundabout, than the NRA will have learned nothing, absolutely nothing from the mistakes they made in the UK in the 1960s and 1970s.:mad:

    It's n ot as if land availability is a problem in rural county Galway. Surely for the same amount of money they could build a Whirlpool or a M50 upgrade type Partial cloverleaf?:(

    NRA are just pathetic.

    They dont build these in the UK, cus you cant upgrade them. They are not really cheaper than full free flowing interchanges. considering three stacks are inefficient and may require lights on all approaches to the roundabout.

    NRA need a few insults thrown at them at this stage, can we the people sack the planners. I'm sick of this tripe

    Every interchange they build, from Mahon in Cork, To all the Southern rings roads exits in LImerick, To the M7/M8/M9 restricted access interchanges, M50 mess, CNRR, Adare bypass, and the Waterford M9 and N24 converging to each other at a ****ing roundabout just before the New M25 bridge. Have I missed anymore. The NRA are sexually attracted to building sh1te interchanges.

    Did anyone see the plans for the Adare bypass.:mad: The blue route was like it was drawn in by a 3 year old in free hand. Yes its funny when you think there was no money involved in these projects but seriously guys, this is not acceptable. Its getting tiring.


    Who in gods name are planningt these disasters. A three stack, they are loathed in the Uk...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Cheaper and less land take. Simple as that.

    TBH at this stage I'd rather it get built with the crappy junction rather than wait ages for the whole scheme while its redesigned.

    Full cloverleaf is cheaper

    And considering its a three stack its not that much cheaper than a full free flow interchange. You have to remember this a greenfield site there is plenty of land anyway so the land take is no issue, so any free flow type will be relatively easy to build. Heck they can leave a few of the minor slips out until there is funding, but not a ****ing roundabout please god.. no...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    I would never trust Irish drivers on a Cloverleaf. With all the weaving that goes on and Irish people innate inability to change lanes sensibly it would be a massive disaster.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    I would never trust Irish drivers on a Cloverleaf. With all the weaving that goes on and Irish people innate inability to change lanes sensibly it would be a massive disaster.

    2 me, that attitude seems quite foolish


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    I would never trust Irish drivers on a Cloverleaf. With all the weaving that goes on and Irish people innate inability to change lanes sensibly it would be a massive disaster.

    Cloverleafs are an outdated design anyway, a whirlpool is a far better option, and they have plenty of space to work with.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32 Celtic Warrior


    Have to admit .........I've seen worse at least both mainlines (M6 & M17) look to be un interrupted! As long as they don't go putting in any fecking traffic lights :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    mysterious wrote: »
    The NRA are sexually attracted to building sh1te interchanges.

    It's like they have no imagination at all. "We need a junction to connect these 2 motorways" - "Let's build a roundabout!". The M6 junction with the N6 at Doughiska should be a trumpet interchange but, you guessed it, an at-grade roundabout. :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    I'd be concerned with the location of the M6/17/18 junction moreso than its layout. Its too far from Galway. All Galway-AC traffic will be forced onto the western leg of the M6 to mix with Dublin traffic, or else just continue using the current roads for a slower, more direct route north or south.

    If the M17/18 swung even 5km further west of the current arrangement, it would make it less of a 'diversion' for Galway users and entice them off the smaller roads. Isn't that what these new roads are for, to take the main bulk of vehicles off the boreens old N routes?

    I've only heard one 'official' retort to this arguement - that "it would be unfair for other Atlantic Corridor users to have to swing past Galway on their journey". Go figure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,511 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Have to admit .........I've seen worse at least both mainlines (M6 & M17) look to be un interrupted! As long as they don't go putting in any fecking traffic lights :mad:

    Both mainlines are clear on a three level stack but the only way to handle high capacity on a TLS is traffic lights on the roundabout. This shouldn't affect either mainline unless traffic backs up...


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,511 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    NRA are just pathetic.

    They dont build these in the UK, cus you cant upgrade them. They are not really cheaper than full free flowing interchanges. considering three stacks are inefficient and may require lights on all approaches to the roundabout.

    The UK is full of them, and you can't even claim "they don't build them anymore" as the UK barely builds ANY motorways/DCs anymore thanks to Labour...

    http://www.cbrd.co.uk/badjunctions/60-62-66.shtml is a very recently built one and its a nightmare to try and do any right turns on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Have to admit .........I've seen worse at least both mainlines (M6 & M17) look to be un interrupted! As long as they don't go putting in any fecking traffic lights :mad:

    The N17/N18 mainline is irrelevant compared to N6-N18, and N6-N17 traffic flows. There will be far more traffic to/from Galway from Limerick and Tuam, not to mention traffic to/from Dublin from Gort and Tuam directions, than there will be between the Gort and Tuam directions.

    The type of interchange they are building is completely unsuitable as it is only the M6 mainline that needs to go straight through the junction, and the other priority should be to grade separate some of the "right turn" movements.

    It would seem the only reasons they are building such an interchange are (a) because of the original insane plan to tack a MSA onto the r/bout, and (b) because someone at the NRA decided "oh look, we don't have one of these junctions yet and it has nice straight lines for both the M6 and the N17/N18". It seems unlikely that an M50-style junction (possibly even less compact form) would cost much more - the three level stack involves, well, three levels of gradient, and also various bridges of different heights.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    If the M6/M17/M18 Rathmorrissey interchange is built as a 3 level stacked roundabout, than the NRA will have learned nothing, absolutely nothing from the mistakes they made in the UK in the 1960s and 1970s.:mad:

    It's n ot as if land availability is a problem in rural county Galway. Surely for the same amount of money they could build a Whirlpool or a M50 upgrade type Partial cloverleaf?:(

    Agree!!!

    Now that there'll be no services at Rathmorrissey (well done ABP! :)), there is absolutely no reason for an outmoded English style 3 level stack (exept the English don't even give you freeflow slips - typical English! :mad:)! I would go for an M50 style partial cloverleaf (or 'figure 8', 'scalectrix' etc), except that the loops should be 150m in diameter - like the N2 South Ashbourne Interchange in Meath. As you say, there's ample room!

    Regards!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    mysterious wrote: »
    NRA are just pathetic.

    They dont build these in the UK, cus you cant upgrade them. They are not really cheaper than full free flowing interchanges. considering three stacks are inefficient and may require lights on all approaches to the roundabout.

    NRA need a few insults thrown at them at this stage, can we the people sack the planners. I'm sick of this tripe

    Every interchange they build, from Mahon in Cork, To all the Southern rings roads exits in LImerick, To the M7/M8/M9 restricted access interchanges, M50 mess, CNRR, Adare bypass, and the Waterford M9 and N24 converging to each other at a ****ing roundabout just before the New M25 bridge. Have I missed anymore. The NRA are sexually attracted to building sh1te interchanges.

    Did anyone see the plans for the Adare bypass.:mad: The blue route was like it was drawn in by a 3 year old in free hand. Yes its funny when you think there was no money involved in these projects but seriously guys, this is not acceptable. Its getting tiring.

    Who in gods name are planningt these disasters. A three stack, they are loathed in the Uk...
    Hilarious post! Full of inaccuracies as usual, but it's hilarious, I'll give you that.

    Roundabout junctions between motorways are extremely common in the UK. Whether they should be is another matter, but there's definitely the standard. We're erring by copying that standard.

    They are loathed in the UK by roadfans, but not by planners.

    I'm just about to fire the NRA an email about this; I hope everyone else does. Bitching on this thread achieves nothing.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    The email that I sent.
    Hi there

    I am writing to express my concerns at the proposed M6/M17/M18 junction in Galway, which will be provided as part of the M17/M18 Gort-Tuam PPP scheduled to start next year. A schematic of same is attached.

    The proposal is to grade-separate two motorways using a roundabout junction type with left-turn freeflow links. I believe the proposed junction to be:

    (1) Underpowered. Since the section of M6 from here to Galway will carry M17, M18 and Dublin-bound traffic, it can probably be expected to carry in excess of 50,000 vehicles a day on opening. The junction seems underpowered for this level of traffic;
    (2) Difficult to upgrade. Large roundabout interchanges like this are difficult to upgrade as the crossing bridges are too close to the centre of the structure for a cloverleaf, partial cloverleaf, 4-level stack, or similar, to be created without widespread demolition. There is also the associated traffic disruption that would result during this upgrade;
    (3) An apparent attempt to save money by using a small land footprint in order to limit landtake. This is unnecessary in a rural location where land is cheap, especially in the current property downturn.

    I believe the roundabout junction type was only specified here because of plans to locate a Motorway Service Area at this location, accessible from the roundabout. This plan is no longer being progressed, removing the need for the roundabout.

    I am asking that an alternate junction type be provided here that addresses the above concerns. In particular a partial cloverleaf such as found at the M50/N4 junction in Dublin would be more appropriate.

    Please consider the above.


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