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M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    The Gort-Tuam section of the N18/N17 has gone to tender:
    The N17/N18 Gort to Tuam PPP Scheme is for the design, construction, operation, maintenance and financing of approximately 57 kilometres of motorway/dual carriageway forming part of the N17/N18 national primary route together with several kilometres of associated side and link roads. It is intended that the scheme will also include the development and operation (plus associated financing) of a motorway service area. All such elements of work set out above are approximate only and may be reduced or added to by the Authority following dialogue with those Candidates selected to proceed to the next stage of the competition or otherwise at the Authority's absolute discretion. The Authority may also extend the operation and maintenance elements to include other parts of the national road network.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Just crossposting from Infrastructure ->
    Shadow toll I think. And the Service Area will be at Rathmorrisey, tacked onto the M18/6/17 roundabout. ( :( )

    Etenders I dont usually trust as they're either late/early/wrong, but I'm glad this has appeared. In any case, I'm not believing ANYTHING until I see diggers digging and even then until I see pics in this forum of something being built.

    I dont think we're going to see a complete halt to construction, despite the fact that the coffers are dry. Instead, I think we'll see one scheme starting per year until we have money again. Just one scheme per year, and possibly only a token one. But I dont think we'll see a COMPLETE halt. One measly scheme (like Castleisland) will keep the government being able to say "we're doing something". And thats more important than ANYTHING to them at the moment.

    So in 2008 that scheme was Gort - Crusheen (last token scheme)
    2009 Castleisland
    2010 Gort - Tuam PPP or if its too expensive the cheap-ass Longford bypass will be resurrected.

    We'll see, but I'm not holding any hope for this yet. Both N18 schemes have been on Etenders before AND BEEN CANCELLED. So we'll see.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    An absolute heap of documents about the M17/M18 PPP scheme has appeared.

    The Site Investigation tenders have been published - interesting to note that the site investigation tender includes some drilling and testing on the Outer Bypass route.

    http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=FEB114698

    ftp://87.192.143.70/
    Username: SiteInvestigation
    Password: pass

    If you're wondering, that information is freely posted on the tender document page, so its not private.

    Some interesting reading in there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    So When is the Gort to Athenry scheme going to start?

    it really needs to press on. The existing N18 won't be able to cope with the new infastructure just south of it.

    Anymore pics?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    An absolute heap of documents about the M17/M18 PPP scheme has appeared.

    The Site Investigation tenders have been published - interesting to note that the site investigation tender includes some drilling and testing on the Outer Bypass route.

    http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=FEB114698

    ftp://87.192.143.70/
    Username: SiteInvestigation
    Password: pass

    If you're wondering, that information is freely posted on the tender document page, so its not private.

    Some interesting reading in there.

    How did you get access to those information packs and passwords. Any possible way you could get access to information packs for other schemes?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Just found it in the tender document information, click on the Full Notice Text and the username/pass is halfway down the page. Tho I've never seen this for any other scheme.

    The good news:
    The Motorway Service Area will be built as part of the scheme.

    The bad news:
    They've included a pic.



    Oh dear.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 68,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Ah, how nice, they've left it so close to the mainline it'll either need to be knocked or require and M50/N3 contortion in 20 years time when that junction is made freeflow...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Well, I suppose I better make some kind of observation. Gee, where do I start with what's wrong with that design?

    It's got a roundabout in it, and it links three motorways. Hmmm... I think that's a pretty good start.

    Token left free-flow slips don't do anything to comfort me. What about traffic going from Galway to Limerick (i.e THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THE M18). They'll be forced to use the roundabout.

    What about traffic going from Tuam to Galway (i.e THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THE M17). They'll be forced to use the roundabout.

    Who is going to use the MSA? Who is really going to go to that kind of trouble?

    Main point: WHY IS SUCH AN INEFFICIENT DESIGN BEING USED?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Well, I suppose I better make some kind of observation. Gee, where do I start with what's wrong with that design?

    It's got a roundabout in it, and it links three motorways. Hmmm... I think that's a pretty good start.

    Token left free-flow slips don't do anything to comfort me. What about traffic going from Galway to Limerick (i.e THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THE M18). They'll be forced to use the roundabout.

    What about traffic going from Tuam to Galway (i.e THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THE M17). They'll be forced to use the roundabout.

    Who is going to use the MSA? Who is really going to go to that kind of trouble?

    Main point: WHY IS SUCH AN INEFFICIENT DESIGN BEING USED?


    This interchange is not only insufficient. but it can't be upgraded once built. They are also rather ugly too.

    I think this is nothing but a c and three letters after it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Some artists we have in the design office:rolleyes:

    But to be brutally honest, it's one ugly motherf******


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,679 ✭✭✭serfboard


    The bad news:
    They've included a pic.
    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Token left free-flow slips don't do anything to comfort me. What about traffic going from Galway to Limerick (i.e THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THE M18). They'll be forced to use the roundabout.

    What about traffic going from Tuam to Galway (i.e THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THE M17). They'll be forced to use the roundabout.

    Who is going to use the MSA? Who is really going to go to that kind of trouble?

    Main point: WHY IS SUCH AN INEFFICIENT DESIGN BEING USED?

    I have to say I've seen a lot of discussion on boards about the M6/17/18 interchange design but didn't really give it much thought, because I hadn't seen it pictorially. However the picture and the points made above really clarify it for me.

    25K vehicles per day use Claregalway, most are going into the city. So, even if 60% use it, that means 15,000 vehicles per day are going to have to use the roundabout. And that's not counting the number going from Galway to Limerick. :eek:

    Good God.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    That's not actually that many - a roundabout can easily handle 15,000 vehicles per day congestion free. The stupid part is that it wouldn't cost much more to build a proper free flow junction, which would be able to cope better with future demands.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I'm convinced that the roundabout is only being used so they can get away with one MSA covering all three motorways. Any freeflow solution would have meant extra infrastructure to get away with one MSA or else build an MSA for the M6 mainline and another one for the M17/18 mainline. Still sucks though and the least they should have done was move the MSA away from the junction to allow an upgrade later (even though stacked roundabouts are awkward as it is to upgrade).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I'm sorry, can someone summarise point by point what it is that is wrong with this scheme?

    I have heard objections about a roundabout, a service area, and poor route selection that won't alleviate traffic problems for some commuter towns.

    I'm not familiar with the plans or with the area, and don't have time to investigate it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Yuck :D

    Yucky

    horrible

    DISASTER...


    Sorry for trolling:P


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    That's not actually that many - a roundabout can easily handle 15,000 vehicles per day congestion free. The stupid part is that it wouldn't cost much more to build a proper free flow junction, which would be able to cope better with future demands.

    Presumably that's if they are spread out across the day. If they are in the morning and evening though...

    Just look at N24/N7 junction (a diamond-type interchange) on the Limerick Southern Ring Road to see an example of serious traffic jams despite a junction solution that was theoretically enough for the AADT (N24 is, or was, low AADT - but it turns out it was mostly bunched either end of the day). They've had to install traffic lights on it to ensure the backlog is mostly on the S2 Tipperary Road instead of tailing down the slips onto the dual carriageway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Zoney wrote: »
    Presumably that's if they are spread out across the day. If they are in the morning and evening though...

    Just look at N24/N7 junction (a diamond-type interchange) on the Limerick Southern Ring Road to see an example of serious traffic jams despite a junction solution that was theoretically enough for the AADT (N24 is, or was, low AADT - but it turns out it was mostly bunched either end of the day). They've had to install traffic lights on it to ensure the backlog is mostly on the S2 Tipperary Road instead of tailing down the slips onto the dual carriageway.

    Couldnt agree more the N7/N24 is a disaster of a junction.

    1. Anyway the first problem with the tuam-gort is the route. It should be a lot closer to Galway city, the N17 tuam to galway is one of the busiest roads in the country and I doubt those commuters will be using the new road if they have to drive all the way to athenry to join the new N17.

    2. A roundabout connecting 3 motorways, how crazy is that. This should be a freeflow junction but there looks to be no going back now. One good point of the route is for longer commuters like myself that would travel to sligo from limerick. it is more direct.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    tech2 wrote: »

    1. Anyway the first problem with the tuam-gort is the route. It should be a lot closer to Galway city, the N17 tuam to galway is one of the busiest roads in the country and I doubt those commuters will be using the new road if they have to drive all the way to athenry to join the new N17.

    Surely this is a disaster? Has no one complained about the routing?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Furet wrote: »
    Surely this is a disaster? Has no one complained about the routing?

    Indeed its a big problem. I didnt hear any complaints regarding this however but maybe someone from around the galway area would know more. Some of the routing of new roads in this country is very questionable. Example the new M3 under construction going through the hill of tara. An ancient site where a motorway should never be near. :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    That roundabout is plonked there because of Moterway service station.


    This country is laughable as usual. There is no other word to describe this.
    One being it's a stupid place to build one
    Two the only reason they are building the roundabout is to suit the needs of the M.S.S, not the traffic that will use the road.

    Roundabout should not be built as a way of connection 3 motorways together. They were built in the UK as a cheap alternative to free flowing interchange. Infact there is little difference in the cost. The amount of bridges would even be more on the Rounabout design depending on how how high or low the roundabout is. The major flaw to these roundabout motorway juncions they can't be upgraded they have to be knocked to allow further free flow movement's.

    Horray.
    This is so pissing me off. I just don't understand this country really really don't.:mad:


    Why build a motorway service station 2km from Athenry, 15km for Gort and a few Kms from Galway. I just don't get it. I'm boycotting that heap of ****e when it's built.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Furet wrote: »
    Surely this is a disaster? Has no one complained about the routing?

    I suspect it was deliberately routed so far from Galway so that it wouldn't be used as a commuter route between there and Tuam.

    This was probably done in anticipation of a Claregalway bypass and the completion of the Galway Outer Bypass.

    Frankly, IMO, we shouldn't be encouraging long-distance commuting by road (and for a city of Galway's small size, commuting ca. 30-35km from Tuam or environs is a long-distance commute) and the correct decision was made in this case.

    I also don't see a huge problem with the proposed M6/M18 junction.

    Four M6-M18 (and vice-versa) movements will be free-flow via slip roads that bypass the roundabout, and the M18's mainline will be carried over the roundabout by bridges, while the M6's mainline will go underneath the mainline of the M18 and the roundabout: a three-level stack.

    Traffic going straight on in either direction on both routes won't have to use the roundabout.

    Only traffic making four M6-M18 (and vice-versa) movements will have to use the roundabout.

    That means only about 25% of traffic at the junction will have to use the roundabout, plus the traffic that wants to access the MSA.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    That sounds quite agreeable actually. So why all the criticism?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 68,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Because triple level stacks are just inherently evil, sorry...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Furet wrote: »
    That sounds quite agreeable actually. So why all the criticism?

    I don't think people are looking at the diagram properly. It would be helpful if north was indicated on the diagram so that the movements could be categorised properly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    MYOB wrote: »
    Because triple level stacks are just inherently evil, sorry...


    They are the work of the devil, It has to be in the bible somewhere. I'll check, but jebus, its nasty.


    They cost just as much as a normal free flow interchange. The flaw is, they cant take as much traffic as a free flowing interchange and you can't upgrade them.

    In England where are they are a common place, are now infamous too. They are just badass. Most of Europe and USA don't have these horrible three level stacks. They are just pointless to build.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    I don't think people are looking at the diagram properly. It would be helpful if north was indicated on the diagram so that the movements could be categorised properly.

    An ugly ducking is ugly no matter what angle you look at it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Heres a little tidbit of news thats quite interesting -

    This quote from a circular from the NRA says it all -
    An Bord Pleanala issued its approval to the M17 Galway (Rathmorrisey) to Tuam Motorway Scheme 2007 on 6th March 2009. That approval contained a number of conditions including the deletion of the Rathmorrisey motorway service area from the project.

    The current 3 level stack plan is still in place, but now there will be no motorway service area tacked onto the side of it.

    A good decision IMO, at it was an utterly stupid place for an MSA.

    If you're leaving Galway, its too close to Galway, if you're going TO Galway, its too close to Galway.

    Still the 3 level stack tho, but no MSA any more.



    Edit: The PLANNED timetable for this scheme is as follows (this assumes the PPP will go ahead which is unknown at this point. Also it assumes everything goes to plan, which it rarely does)

    AFAIK the current tender notices are pre-qualification tenders.
    Actual final tender submission is May 2010.
    October 2010 contract awarded.
    Current plan for road opening is 2013.

    Who knows though ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    It always seemed to me that the only reason for a RAB instead of a free-flow whirlpool was so that they could attach the MSA to the 3 motorways via the RAB. Without the MSA I don't see why they couldn't improve the design of the junction. Don't even think it would be much more expensive.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,981 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Got some (bad) pics as a car passenger. Will post soon.
    Chris, excellent catch on the removed MSA. Fantastic news - this MSA would have been a thorn in our side if we'd built it. The interchange would practically have been un-upgradeable.

    Would love to get confirmation. We'll have it for sure next year if they start progressing the project.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Slightly off topic but realated to the same route regardless. Will the tuam bypass still be constructed with 4 roundabouts on the mainline. I know it will be 2+2 but surely that many roundabouts wont really give it a bypass tag. 2 roundabouts at most should be the limit.

    I had a look through the galway country council website today at the routes for the N18/N17/tuam bypass. Trying to judge the cost of the project is going to be difficult in excess of a billion? There is going to be 4 grade seperated junctions including rathmorrissey interchange.

    I belive we should have a new thread dedicated to the gort-tuam PPP as interest seems to be growing in this recently to keep it seperate from the G-C scheme?


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