"Operation Armageddon" in 1969 would have been mass suicide for Irish - STAY ON TOPIC

Happy Monday

When Lynch made that speech Protestants across the North were preparing for an all out war to defend their little corner of her Majesty's realm.

Had the Irish Army invaded the symbolic value of this action would have created a massive sectarian conflict which would have made the Troubles look like a garden tea party and it would have been conducted on an all Ireland basis.

Ireland would have had its own Balkans form of ethnic cleansing.

Lynch decided containing the conflict in the North was the best option.

Foxhound38

Happy Monday wrote: »

Ireland would have had its own Balkans form of ethnic cleansing.

And considering the vastly smaller size, and lower population of this country, theres a good chance it could have comparitively been a lot worse in terms of casualty ratios, and chances for eventual re-stabilization. We would probably still be living through the aftermath of it - those who made it anyway

AndyP

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

By the time that happened though Britain probably would have bombed us back to the stone age.

Not to worry, Agent Bertie has assured our return to the stone age.

McArmalite

Happy Monday wrote: »

When Lynch made that speech Protestants across the North were preparing for an all out war to defend their little corner of her Majesty's realm.

Had the Irish Army invaded the symbolic value of this action would have created a massive sectarian conflict which would have made the Troubles look like a garden tea party and it would have been conducted on an all Ireland basis.

Ireland would have had its own Balkans form of ethnic cleansing.

Lynch decided containing the conflict in the North was the best option.

And who would have been the unionist forces to fight this " all out war ". The fuking RUC and B Specials ( Reserve loyaist thugs of the RUC ). As badly armed as the Irish army were, what did they have, revoulvers and a few sten guns. I mean around 20 IRA men armed with a few bolt action rifles and hand guns managed to keep them and the loyalist mobs at bay at the bottom of the Falls Rd for a ferw days and men just armed with petrol bombs in Derry for Gods sake.

Don't give us this big unionist backlash " Balkans form of ethnic cleansing " BS :rolleyes:

If the Irish army had gone it, it would have had the full backing of the International community, the USA especially. And not just Irish America, the plight of teh Civil Rights marches etc obviously had huge resonations with the American public. Something like the Suez crisis in 1956 of which britain learned a very, very hard lesson.

But I can tell you what the theme and conclusion of the programme is going to be. Well, Fianna Fail the Republican party so dearly wanted to live up to it's rethoric of the 30' 40's 50' and 60's - " the cause of our fathers, we'll be with you all the way men " etc, etc :rolleyes: - but that they decided in a genuine humanitiarian concern that it would be better not to intervene and though we had bloodshed for 25 years, it was all for the better somehow:rolleyes: and the Good Friday Agreement is the be all and end all for everyone and aren't we such a great little nation, blah, blah, blah ..............

Kev_ps3

Why would it have been "mass suicide for the Irish"?? I would image our army would be as big if not bigger then the amount of British soldiers stationed in the North at the time. What huge advantage would the British have to wipe out the Irish army? Both carry guns ffs.
I agree obviously a prolonged conflict would see a defeat for the Irish troops when British troops from England/Scotland arrived..

eoin2nc

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Why would it have been "mass suicide for the Irish"?? I would image our army would be as big if not bigger then the amount of British soldiers stationed in the North at the time. What huge advantage would the British have to wipe out the Irish army? Both carry guns ffs.
I agree obviously a prolonged conflict would see a defeat for the Irish troops when British troops from England/Scotland arrived..

How long would it have taken aircraft based in Britain to reach Dublin?

Ri_Nollaig

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Why would it have been "mass suicide for the Irish"?? I would image our army would be as big if not bigger then the amount of British soldiers stationed in the North at the time. What huge advantage would the British have to wipe out the Irish army? Both carry guns ffs.
I agree obviously a prolonged conflict would see a defeat for the Irish troops when British troops from England/Scotland arrived..

The British would have definitely sent more in, and completely outclass anything the Irish army has. What could we have used to stop the obvious airstrikes, naval bombardments they would have used?

TheZohanS

Had we invaded the North and had our ass handed to us by the British you would have seen Irish men across the country volunteering.

The British would have been defeated, no question about it.

Dartz

Let's have a bit of fun with this scenario... see how many ways it could've screwed up. None of this is plausible for a couple of hundred reasons, but it's kinda interesting in it's own way... it matches our sense of inflated self importance, and I like waffling out my hole.

So then, maybe we join the game of brinkmanship. Ask for political help from the US, and the Irish-American lobby.... maybe hint that we might ask for help from the only country to recognise the provisional Irish Republic in 1919 if they turn us down.

(They'd probably still turn us down anyway, and laugh at such an empty threat, because they know the Soviets are smart enough not get involved.)

US goes to the Security council.... if it comes up for a vote, Britain would probably veto it anyway. So then, the aim would be to put the British in the position where vetoing the resolution would be the least distasteful option.

What could be more distasteful to the British than UN peacekeepers on their territory?

Again, that's where everything falls down.

The only way the Irish Army could've presented a credible threat would've been to arm up and mobilise extensively, which would've been bloody obvious to the rest of the world, expensive as hell, and take a long time to do. Atleast double the manpower would be needed. How? Either through national service, or a recruitment drive.

The aim of course, not being to beat the British Army in an outright war, but to discourage them from making war necessary. They'd win, but they'd be bloodied as hell to do it.

We probably would've had to purchase export-edition Soviet gear, or expensive handme-downs from the US that were already a decade out of date, but still more modern than what we had at the time. So that's Either F104 starfighters, or Mig-21's. Long range isn't an issue, just something that can maintain a credible air defence against British Lightning jets, and maybe a V-bomber or two if they want to get snitty.

Armour would by necessity have come from whoever we bought the aircraft from. So that's either a the T-62, or M48/M-60's depending on where we're shopping.

Finally, some Anti-aircraft missiles, to station around Baldonnel, Shannon and Leinster house, and the Guinness Brewery.

Navy... well, that one will have to do without.

The aim of course, not being to build an army to beat the British, but one that could mount a credible defence, one which, with support of the local population, could be a real headache in NI.

Now then, it's 1975-78, and we have all that ready to go. The Troubles are getting into their most brutal years. Station that lot along the border and deliver the message to London... Stop this secretarian violence against nationalists, and get the North under control, or we will.

They'll probably just laugh anyway.

But....Having this threat sitting on the border will encourage the British to increase their troop presence in the North. There's a credible threat to be defended against now, isn't there? Ideally, this will lead to a clampdown on both Unionist and Nationalist paramilitaries, who will be interfering with their ability to garrison. They could also stamp out collusion between the RUC and loyalist paramilitaries. (In actuallity, it'd probably be a one sided response and provoke the whole bloody province and destroy any chance of peaceful resolution for some time.)

Republican terrorist attacks would ratchet up, and the British response would probably go well beyond 'internment' as they struggle to regain control. It would be bloody, and it would be horrific, beyond what actually happened in the 80's

But it would also blacken Britain's international reputation.

They will probably demand that we bring the IRA under control within our country. It only makes sense that we agree... The IRA by their very nature are an organisation treasonous to this countries government.... membership of the IRA should be tried as treason and punished accordingly. Anyone remember the penalty for treason in the 1980's?

This make us look good. We're doing our part for security within our own territory, and we're military capable of controlling Republicans. We're accepting nationalist refugees from the deteriorating North, and in general being sensible... still offering military assistance to the British security forces....

By the mid to late 80's, the North has probably either gone the way of the Balkans in the 90's, is going the way Afghanistan did for the Soviets....or they've managed to brutally regain control through judicious and excessive application of military force, killed hundreds of thousands on both sides and generally made themselves look like dicks.

While the Argentinians have probably helped themselves to the Malvinas while the British we're busy dealing with their local problems.

Unless they've regained control by the 90's, they'll probobably be losing all taste for a brutal multi-sided conflict they just can't win.Coffins are shipping back daily, it's bleeding money. Peace negotiations won't work.... both sides are still too polarised by the British troop surge of the mid 70's.... They might just say 'To hell with this' and either pull out, or agree to an international peacekeeping mission.

If they agree to the peacekeeping mission... huzzah... we've achieved our aims from 1969. The UN moves in... they stand around.... distribute food and generally look good while watching the civil war continue. Thousands more die.

If they pull out,... huzzah.... we've achieved our aims of a United Ireland without a firing a single shot. At least up until the moment we realise that half of the North just doesn't want us to be there.... queue a few more decades of secretarian slaughter, and the country is probabbly already a bankrupt banana republic from paying for all that military stuff, and we've probably caused a brutal civil war that will last well into the next century.

But we still won.... sort of.

We bankrupted the country, the celtic tiger and EU membership will probably never happen, and we've caused the deaths of thousands... but we won.

JONJO THE MISER

Of course the Irish times would never think it would work because its founded as a Protestant newspaper and by the elities. If we had of Invaded the north all hell would of broken loose but lets not forget that America would not stand idly by and watch as the Irish were slaughtered, tens of thousands of Irish Americans would of come to Ireland to Join our fight or else the American army would of came in with the U.N, could you actually imagine if J.F.K had not been killed and had been President, there would be no way in hell he would of allowed mass Irish killings by the Brits.

rossie1977

TheZohan wrote: »

Had we invaded the North and had our ass handed to us by the British you would have seen Irish men across the country volunteering.

The British would have been defeated, no question about it.

just like 1916 right

Ri_Nollaig

Dartz wrote: »

...

atleast we won

Dr. Baltar

It never would have happened.

No EU membership.
The whole country would probably be occupied by the British, leading to War of Independence 2.0 and more bloodshed.
It just never would have worked.
Our nation would still be feeling the effects now.

GalwayKiefer

DublinWriter wrote: »

He maintained at the time that his unit had received orders to go into position just outside Fermanagh and were actually five miles across the border with a small field gun when they received orders to head back to their base ASAP.

I've never been able to verify his story.

I've heard 2 similar stories from family members who've served in the DF. Has anyone heard of the units who did/were about to go across the border meeting up with IRA members to act as guides/intel?

JONJO THE MISER

Happy Monday wrote: »

When Lynch made that speech Protestants across the North were preparing for an all out war to defend their little corner of her Majesty's realm.

Had the Irish Army invaded the symbolic value of this action would have created a massive sectarian conflict which would have made the Troubles look like a garden tea party and it would have been conducted on an all Ireland basis.

Ireland would have had its own Balkans form of ethnic cleansing.

Lynch decided containing the conflict in the North was the best option.

Surely you dont mean all of Ireland, you think the Prods could get and etnic cleanse even a mile over the border, not likely, the general Irish population would mobilise and kick those Prods across the Irish sea, you have to remember we Catholics were the majority in the island of Ireland.

PK2008

There wouldnt have been any UN intervention as Britain is/was a permanant member of the UN security council and would have vetoed it.

There is no way the US would get involved as it was steeped in the Vietnam war at the time and had its own civil issues to deal with. Plus the ties between Britain and the US have always been much stronger than Ireland and the US considering they both fought side by side in WW2 and stood side by side against Russia in the cold war.

Lynch's statement was a master-stroke, he said just enough to make the British intervene while not enough to provoke an all out war.

Anyone who beleives we would have stood a chance against the British army is a fantasist.

darkman2

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/irish-army-planned-to-attack-belfast-14474357.html

Irish army planned to attack Belfast
Monday, 31 August 2009


Military documents declassified by the Irish government show that the Irish army planned to launch guerrilla attacks in Belfast in 1969.


According to the details revealed in the Sunday Times, among strategic locations to be targeted were the BBC’s television studios, the docks, airport and key industries.

According to the documents declassified in 2004, the guerrilla plot, codenamed Exercise Armageddon, was designed to draw Northern Ireland security forces away from border towns, allowing Irish troops to be established there.

In a TV documentary, presenter Tom Clonan, a security analyst, says the proposed guerrilla forces would have been Irish soldiers trained for special forces operations.

The documents show that a special board set up to look at the Republic’s response to the Troubles outbreak, ruled out a conventional military operation.

The strategy was to use an unconventional plan to defend nationalists living in Northern Ireland.

The papers reveal 2,817 troops were needed for the operation, but only 2,136 were available.

Mr Clonan said the papers tell of how army strategists drew up military plans after then Taoiseach Jack Lynch said in August 1969 that the Irish government would not stand by and watch innocent people being hurt.

The historic October 1969 document noted the majority of vital installations — such as Belfast city airport, the television studios, docks and main industries — are located in the north-eastern part of the province, some distance from the border, and suggested operations should be unconventional.

Mr Clonan said the second part of the plan was about launching two infantry-company attacks, with about 120 troops, into Derry and Newry. He said, according to the document, the operation would have to be unilateral — with no declaration of war.

It would be an attack without warning.

In the document, military planners say an attack would leave the south exposed to the threat of retaliatory punitive military action by UK forces on the Republic and concluded any operations undertaken against Northern Ireland would be “militarily unsound”.

Apparently, lack of morale was a problem facing the Irish army.

Military officials also planned for soldiers being cut off in Donegal, if British forces broke through between Belleek and Ballyshannon.

However, details of the deliberations at the time reveal that planners said because of the vulnerability of the county of Donegal, plans should be prepared to provide for the continued existence there of the Republic’s units, should the area be isolated by British action.

Belfast Telegraph

JONJO THE MISER

Even if America had not of intervened, there is no doubt that tens of thousands of Irish americans would of came to Ireland to fight the Brits and every man in this country would moblise with any weapon they could and march towards the border and kick those Prods all the way up the Glens of Antrim, lets not forget the Hundreds of THousands of Irish in Britain at the time, they would of done domestic attacks in Britain and terrorised the cities of Britain.

PK2008

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Even if America had not of intervened, there is no doubt that tens of thousands of Irish americans would of came to Ireland to fight the Brits and every man in this country would moblise with any weapon they could and march towards the border and kick those Prods all the way up the Glens of Antrim, lets not forget the Hundreds of THousands of Irish in Britain at the time, they would of done domestic attacks in Britain and terrorised the cities of Britain.

I doubt either the British or US gov would allow them to travel to Ireland if all out war was declared, even then I doubt so many Irish americans or Irish Britons would bother- they didnt in the war of independance, why would they in this one?

The irish government and army would be destroyed very quickly and the IRA were also disorganised at the time meaning there would have been little structure to any guerilla campaign.

Lynch did the right thing, and becuase of it he probably saved thousands

PirateShampoo

TheZohan wrote: »

Had we invaded the North and had our ass handed to us by the British you would have seen Irish men across the country volunteering.

The British would have been defeated, no question about it.

Really, so you would have a couple of thousand poorly armed civilians fighting against a trained well equipped regiments. Ireland had no air support what so ever and would of been tactically bombed into oblivion.

Witcher

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Even if America had not of intervened, there is no doubt that tens of thousands of Irish americans would of came to Ireland to fight the Brits and every man in this country would moblise with any weapon they could and march towards the border and kick those Prods all the way up the Glens of Antrim, lets not forget the Hundreds of THousands of Irish in Britain at the time, they would of done domestic attacks in Britain and terrorised the cities of Britain.

Jesus...:rolleyes:

PirateShampoo

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Even if America had not of intervened, there is no doubt that tens of thousands of Irish americans would of came to Ireland to fight the Brits and every man in this country would moblise with any weapon they could and march towards the border and kick those Prods all the way up the Glens of Antrim, lets not forget the Hundreds of THousands of Irish in Britain at the time, they would of done domestic attacks in Britain and terrorised the cities of Britain.

They wouldnt of even made it to Irish shores. They Navy would of had the ports blockaded.

rossie1977

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Even if America had not of intervened, there is no doubt that tens of thousands of Irish americans would of came to Ireland to fight the Brits and every man in this country would moblise with any weapon they could and march towards the border and kick those Prods all the way up the Glens of Antrim, lets not forget the Hundreds of THousands of Irish in Britain at the time, they would of done domestic attacks in Britain and terrorised the cities of Britain.

right, just like the tens of thousands of irish americans who came to irelands aid prior to independence, de-valera went to america and asked them for help and came home with nothing

what weapons?? ireland isn't f**king texas, every person isn't armed with 3 sub-machine guns, shotguns etc, maybe we could have thrown stones at the british, we got some big stones here in roscommon :rolleyes:

you are fooling yourself, my dad served in the irish army at the time (and before he got ill) often told me it was a suicide mission, our troops would have been wiped out in days had we tried and dublin, cork, limerick and galway would have been nothing but rubble, you are also fooling yourself if you think the ordinary people of ireland would have got behind this crazy mission

and lol at prods/catholics :mad:

Poccington

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

My Grandfather was head one of the Reserve forces at the time. His kids can remember his mum crying at the hall as he set off to be on standby. How far he got, I'm not sure. Close to the border anyway. Was definately not seen as a mere formality at the time.

Yep, lads were being sent up toward the border and were told it was game time and the logistics side of things was in full flow. We were in a much better position to deal with what would have been the initial firefights between the DF and RUC/B Specials, although we didn't have the legs for a full blown conflict once the Brits would've started to stream in.

At the same time, the DF was actively training IRA members in preparation of what they saw as the inevitable guerilla war that would've followed the inital "invasion".

They were interesting times indeed.

ejmaztec

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Even if America had not of intervened, there is no doubt that tens of thousands of Irish americans would of came to Ireland to fight the Brits and every man in this country would moblise with any weapon they could and march towards the border and kick those Prods all the way up the Glens of Antrim, lets not forget the Hundreds of THousands of Irish in Britain at the time, they would of done domestic attacks in Britain and terrorised the cities of Britain.

My mother and father, who were there at the time, would have probably terrorised their local pub, before being interned for the duration, along with anybody else that could have been rounded up.

TheZohanS

rossie1977 wrote: »

just like 1916 right

Just like 1916.;)

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Really, so you would have a couple of thousand poorly armed civilians fighting against a trained well equipped regiments. Ireland had no air support what so ever and would of been tactically bombed into oblivion.

You would have had men volunteering en masse. Emotions were running very high at the time.

Witcher

TheZohan wrote: »

Just like 1916.;)



You would have had men volunteering en masse. Emotions were running very high at the time.

Volunteering for what? To run over the border with hurls? Please people use your brains here, it would've ended badly for us.:rolleyes:

PK2008

Blay wrote: »

Volunteering for what? To run over the border with hurls? Please people use your brains here, it would've ended badly for us.:rolleyes:

Exactly, even if we had 10 times the amount of volunteers than British soldiers we would still have been defeated by the vastly technologically superior British military machine, which could have targeted and wiped out volunteers from the safety of the sky, sea or even British shores themselves.

rossie1977

TheZohan wrote: »

Just like 1916.;)

you do realise in 1916 the ordinary irish people IGNORED the call to arms in a time when they should have, it wasn't until the public executions that the rebellion got the people onside, before that the ordinary people viewed those taking part unfavorably, if they ignored it then do you really think they would have gone all out to volunteer in northern ireland

JONJO THE MISER

Blay wrote: »

Volunteering for what? To run over the border with hurls? Please people use your brains here, it would've ended badly for us.:rolleyes:

No it would not, if you think for one minute taht Irish people would allow the brits to slaughter other Irish people you dont know what you are talking about, look at Iraq and Afganistan they havent wont there now have they. The Irish public would rise and we would use everything to get those Brits out of our Republic, there is no way a army can defeat 2 million Irish men even if they were unarmed.