"Operation Armageddon" in 1969 would have been mass suicide for Irish - STAY ON TOPIC

darkman2

'Operation Armageddon' would have been doomsday - for Irish aggressors




FORTY YEARS ago, in August and September of 1969, intense rioting and civil unrest prevailed throughout Northern Ireland.

As the violence reached fever pitch the then taoiseach, Jack Lynch, made a televised speech to the nation on RTÉ in which he used the now immortal and much misquoted phrase: “We will not stand by”.

For almost 40 years, historians and political pundits have argued over the precise meaning of this provocative – and yet somewhat ambiguous phrase. Had Jack Lynch intended to convey the possibility of an Irish Army invasion of Northern Ireland – ostensibly to protect nationalists from sectarian attacks?

Unlikely as it may seem today, the Irish Army did indeed draw up secret plans to invade the six counties.

In a secret Irish Army document, drawn up in September 1969 and entitled Interim Report of Planning Board on Northern Ireland Operations – the Irish military authorities explicitly outlined their concept for “feasible” military operations within the six counties.

In its opening paragraphs, the military document – seen by The Irish Times – predicts with considerable understatement that “all situations visualised [in this document] assume that military action would be taken unilaterally by the Defence Forces and would meet with hostility from Northern Ireland Security Forces”.

In other words, due to the prospect of confronting far superior forces and being exposed to “the threat of retaliatory punitive military action by UK forces on the Republic”, Irish military operations would of necessity commence unannounced – with no formal declaration of war.

The document sets out various attack scenarios whereby the Irish general staff would seek to exploit the element of surprise to launch both covert unconventional or guerrilla-style operations against the British authorities, along with conventional infantry attacks on Derry and Newry.

Before elaborating in detail on the precise nature of such offensive operations within Northern Ireland, the authors of this secret document provide a health warning of sorts to their political masters.

At paragraph 4, a statement is made that “The Defence Forces have no capability of embarking on unilateral military operation of any kind . . . therefore any operations undertaken against Northern Ireland would be militarily unsound”.

However, despite this caveat, the document goes on to outline “accepting the implications of subparagraph 4a . . . conventional military operations on a small scale up to a maximum of company level and unconventional operations could be undertaken by the Defence Forces” – subject to such action being of short duration.

At paragraph 4, sub-paragraph g of this extraordinary document, the Irish Army goes on to identify the towns of “Derry, Strabane, Enniskillen and Newry” as most suitable for infantry operations “by virtue of their proximity to the Border” – and also by virtue of their predominantly nationalist demographics.

At sub-paragraph h, the Irish military authorities identify the BBC TV studios in Belfast as a primary target for destruction along with “Belfast airport, docks and main industries . . . located in the northeast corner”. The document observes that due to their “distance from the Border . . . any military operations against these (targets) should preferably be of the unconventional type”.

The remainder of the 18 pages of secret documents dealing with “Northern Ireland Operations” and “Planning for and conduct of Border operations”, also seen by The Irish Times , deal with the steps necessary for the execution of specific – albeit limited – military operations against Newry, Derry and major infrastructural targets in Belfast.

The document outlines at paragraph 23b the requirement for four infantry brigades to be brought up to strength and trained intensively to “operate in company groups” against urban targets – in other words, company-sized attacks on RUC, B Special and British Army elements in Derry and Newry.

At paragraph 23c the document also outlines the requirement for three motorised cavalry squadrons to be fully equipped and brought up to strength – presumably for armoured reconnaissance and lightning strikes on Northern Ireland security forces located in urban areas such as Derry and Newry.

At paragraph 23d, the document recommends the establishment of “a Special Forces Unit, prepared for employment, primarily on unconventional operations”.

At the time that this document was drafted, in September 1969, the Irish Army was seriously under-strength, with a total of 8,113 personnel. While individual troops were relatively well armed with FN 7.62 automatic rifles – purchased for service in the Congo – the Irish Army was severely lacking in transport and other support elements necessary for combat operations, however limited in scale.

At one point in the military document, it is suggested that “CIÉ buses” would have to be commandeered to get Irish troops into action against Border targets. The Irish did have some artillery support – mainly 120mm mortars and second World War vintage 25-pound field guns.

However, the Irish had little or no air support – the Air Corps possessed approximately a half dozen serviceable De Havilland Vampire jets in the autumn of 1969. These aircraft would have been of little use against RAF Phantom and Harrier jets, stationed at that time within a very short flight time from Northern Irish air space.

In terms of ground forces, in September 1969, the British army presence in Northern Ireland was already on high alert and consisted of almost 3,000 heavily armed troops of the 2nd Queens Regiment, the Royal Regiment of Wales and the Prince of Wales’s Own Regiment based in Belfast, Omagh and Derry. These units had – unlike their Irish counterparts – considerable experience and training in conventional large-scale combat tactics as part of Nato’s UK 16 Para Brigade.

Many of these units had just recently rotated to Northern Ireland following deployment as part of Europe’s Nato Northern Flank Mission.

Armed with Humber armoured personnel carriers – equipped with Rolls Royce six- cylinder engines – along with Saracen armoured fighting vehicles and overwhelming air superiority, the British army presence in Northern Ireland in the autumn of 1969 would have been more than capable of dealing decisively with any Irish Army incursion north of the Border.

Irrespective of the element of surprise, the Irish Army would have been subject to a massive British counter-attack – probably within hours of their initial incursion. Irish casualties would have been high as the British would have sought to swiftly and indiscriminately end the Republic’s unilateral military intervention – which would have had the potential to completely destabilise Northern Ireland, leading perhaps to the type of sectarian violence and ethnic cleansing seen in central Europe just two decades later.

In the final paragraph of the document, the Irish military authorities warn of the doomsday scenario that the aptly named Operation Armageddon might bring about for the Irish Republic – if launched by Lynch’s government.

“Sustained operations of this nature would demand the total commitment of the State . . . Should the operation miscarry, the consequences could be very grave for the State and the people it is intended to assist.”

Luckily for the Irish Republic – and the people of Northern Ireland – Lynch’s declaration not to stand by never translated into a declaration of war.

www.irishtimes.com

I agree with the authors thoughts however he has left out the crucial asspect of international opinion at the time. The Americans were supportive of UN troops being put into the North but could not commit because this might lead to "Chinese and Russian troops in the Southern States as peacekeepers".

Regardless any invasion, even if we had the capability at the time, would have disasterous. A documentary on this intriguing document is to be shown on RTE tomorrow.

If an invasion actually happened imagine what this country would be like today.....also is it realistic to expect the British would simply have left it at removing the "aggressors" from the North and not invaded the Republic!?

Zebra3

Looking forward to the docu.

Should be good.

An invasion would have been the morally correct thing to do, but sadly would have been doomed to failure.

darkman2

Zebra3 wrote: »

Looking forward to the docu.

Should be good.

An invasion would have been the morally correct thing to do, but sadly would have been doomed to failure.

I think the fact that...

it is suggested that “CIÉ buses” would have to be commandeered to get Irish troops into action against Border targets.

(lol!)

....tells us all we need to know:rolleyes:

AlmightyCushion

The best time to do something like this probably would have been while JFK was president. He had close ties to Ireland so America could have stepped in. By the time that happened though Britain probably would have bombed us back to the stone age.

javaboy

darkman2 wrote: »

I think the fact that...

(lol!)

....tells us all we need to know:rolleyes:

Well like the document says, they were planning on making it a surprise attack. Even if they did have decent troop transports, they would have given the game away a bit.

AlmightyCushion

Shame this thread has nothing to do with Lynch sending Bruce Willis to blow up an asteroid.

javaboy

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

By the time that happened though Britain probably would have bombed us back to the stone age.

Let's see. Ireland.... 1969.... so that's about.... carry the one.... 5 years back?

darkman2

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The best time to do something like this probably would have been while JFK was president. He had close ties to Ireland so America could have stepped in. By the time that happened though Britain probably would have bombed us back to the stone age.

Irish America was sadly never used to it's full potential by us. We should have gone down the Isreal route of good organisation and promotion but the Government seemed to treat Irish America as though they were and are like pariahs or something.

Given the clout Irish America had at the time though in US politics it is reasonable to assume the Americans might not have sat back but that is just conjecture...

DublinWriter

javaboy wrote: »

Well like the document says, they were planning on making it a surprise attack. Even if they did have decent troop transports, they would have given the game away a bit.

I heard a strange story from a guy I used to work with. He was retired from the Irish army and was an ex-corporal in the Ranger Wing.

He maintained at the time that his unit had received orders to go into position just outside Fermanagh and were actually five miles across the border with a small field gun when they received orders to head back to their base ASAP.

I've never been able to verify his story.

buynow

Considering the UK and the US were and are Allies, and both members of NATO, the US would have been obliged to declare war on Ireland.

Actually wouldn't all of western Europe have declared war on Ireland? That is one of the core parts of NATO, and attack on one member is an attack on all, especially if it occurs in Europe.

javaboy

buynow wrote: »

Considering the UK and the US were and are Allies, and both members of NATO, the US would have been obliged to declare war on Ireland.

Actually wouldn't all of western Europe have declared war on Ireland? That is one of the core parts of NATO, and attack on one member is an attack on all, especially if it occurs in Europe.

Yep that's what I was thinking. I read that Irish Times article this morning and was surprised there seemed to be no mention of the international impact at all. Whatever about the military consequences (i.e. the UK destroying us), the international impacts for years to come would have been even more disastrous. Ireland was on the verge of turning it around economically and EU membership was right around the corner. This would have been suicide in more ways than one.

darkman2

buynow wrote: »

Considering the UK and the US were and are Allies, and both members of NATO, the US would have been obliged to declare war on Ireland.

Actually wouldn't all of western Europe have declared war on Ireland? That is one of the core parts of NATO, and attack on one member is an attack on all, especially if it occurs in Europe.

It's hard to imagine a US government sanctioning such action against Ireland but that would be out of concern for South Boston more then the Irish here.

There are more "Irish" then "Isreali Jews" in the US and they would never take such action against Isreal for example.

AlmightyCushion

buynow wrote: »

Considering the UK and the US were and are Allies, and both members of NATO, the US would have been obliged to declare war on Ireland.

Actually wouldn't all of western Europe have declared war on Ireland? That is one of the core parts of NATO, and attack on one member is an attack on all, especially if it occurs in Europe.

Obliged doesn't necessarily mean they would though.

buynow

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Obliged doesn't necessarily mean they would though.

True, but it also means the opposite of the US intervening on Ireland's side even less likely. It would have had too much impact on balance of power in the cold war.

Bottle_of_Smoke

darkman2 wrote: »

It's hard to imagine a US government sanctioning such action against Ireland but that would be out of concern for South Boston more then the Irish here.

There are more "Irish" then "Isreali Jews" in the US and they would never take such action against Isreal for example.

Yes but they didn't secretly control everything

*oh **** this isn't stormfront*:eek:

Dyr

Lynch was never going to send the army in, the army would never have gone in, and even if they did the brits would almost certainly have known about it long before anyone crossed the border.

Didn't even have the bottle to really try to bring in the UN.

funk-you

DublinWriter wrote: »

I heard a strange story from a guy I used to work with. He was retired from the Irish army and was an ex-corporal in the Ranger Wing.

He maintained at the time that his unit had received orders to go into position just outside Fermanagh and were actually five miles across the border with a small field gun when they received orders to head back to their base ASAP.

I've never been able to verify his story.

It's true, my auldfella was a Sgt. at the time and has a similar story. He's not the type for bull ****ting. According to him they were to go in and hold out for three days until the UN got involved. They were already across the border when the order came through to stand down.

-Funk

darkman2

funk-you wrote: »

It's true, my auldfella was a Sgt. at the time and has a similar story. He's not the type for bull ****ting. According to him they were to go in and hold out for three days until the UN got involved. They were already across the border when the order came through to stand down.

-Funk

If so then an act of agression defacto occured even if they did not fire a shot. I wonder will they mention troops had already crossed the border in the documentary.

darkman2

Bambi wrote: »

Didn't even have the bottle to really try to bring in the UN.

Doomed from the start anyway because Britain is a security council member. It was them that said to the Americans that foreign peacekeepers could end up on their soil because of their social problems in the Southern States at the time.

DamoDLK

darkman2 wrote: »

A documentary on this intriguing document is to be shown on RTE tomorrow.

If anyone could record it and post it on youtube that would be great.. I'd love to see some of it- as many Irish abroad would!?!?:pac:

AlmightyCushion

DamoDLK wrote: »

If anyone could record it and post it on youtube that would be great.. I'd love to see some of it- as many Irish abroad would!?!?:pac:

It might pop up on the rte player on their site.

IvyTheTerrible

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

It might pop up on the rte player on their site.

That won't let you watch it without some proxy thing.

(Damn you RTE, I want to catch up on my Eastenders).

funk-you

darkman2 wrote: »

If so then an act of agression defacto occured even if they did not fire a shot. I wonder will they mention troops had already crossed the border in the documentary.

Should be interesting, what time and channel is it on. I'd say he'd like to see it.

-Funk

Manic Moran

The US wouldn't have time to get involved. By the time they'd manage to load the first C-141, the British would have made it half-way to Dublin.

NTM

Dartz

The only hope would have been a surprise attack to cripplke the vastly superior enemy's fighting morale....

Yes, that worked brilliantly for the last crowd to try it.

Of course, the UN wouldn't have cared a toss because 'we started it', and anyone stupid enough to look to the Soviet Union would've gotten a 2 word response starting with F and ending in uck Off.

laugh

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

That won't let you watch it without some proxy thing.

(Damn you RTE, I want to catch up on my Eastenders).

You need to pay us monies frenchy.

Euro_Kraut

We so could have taken them. No one is a match for the FCA - The Undefeated Army! Plus we would have been a lot better used to the weather than the British. The could never have coped with our mild autumns.

Beanstalk

Id always hear too they were only going to hold newry until the UN stepped. Apparently the UK would have difficulty vetoing the motion because they would have been considered a country actively at war or something...

Kalashnikov_Kid

funk-you wrote: »

It's true, my auldfella was a Sgt. at the time and has a similar story. He's not the type for bull ****ting. According to him they were to go in and hold out for three days until the UN got involved. They were already across the border when the order came through to stand down.

-Funk

My Grandfather was head one of the Reserve forces at the time. His kids can remember his mum crying at the hall as he set off to be on standby. How far he got, I'm not sure. Close to the border anyway. Was definately not seen as a mere formality at the time.

El Siglo

It would be even funnier if Lynch had set up a 'special' group of nordies that escaped the North to go back in and terrorise the RUC and British Army, kind of like 'Inglourious Basterds'...;)

DamoDLK

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

It might pop up on the rte player on their site.

Prob will, but I can't watch it on the rte website, usually says i've to be in ROI or NI to watch...

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

That won't let you watch it without some proxy thing.

(Damn you RTE, I want to catch up on my Eastenders).

Same as Oz.... well not the Eastenders bit.. dont care much for that.. Top Gear ftw

Happy Monday

When Lynch made that speech Protestants across the North were preparing for an all out war to defend their little corner of her Majesty's realm.

Had the Irish Army invaded the symbolic value of this action would have created a massive sectarian conflict which would have made the Troubles look like a garden tea party and it would have been conducted on an all Ireland basis.

Ireland would have had its own Balkans form of ethnic cleansing.

Lynch decided containing the conflict in the North was the best option.

Foxhound38

Happy Monday wrote: »

Ireland would have had its own Balkans form of ethnic cleansing.

And considering the vastly smaller size, and lower population of this country, theres a good chance it could have comparitively been a lot worse in terms of casualty ratios, and chances for eventual re-stabilization. We would probably still be living through the aftermath of it - those who made it anyway

AndyP

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

By the time that happened though Britain probably would have bombed us back to the stone age.

Not to worry, Agent Bertie has assured our return to the stone age.

McArmalite

Happy Monday wrote: »

When Lynch made that speech Protestants across the North were preparing for an all out war to defend their little corner of her Majesty's realm.

Had the Irish Army invaded the symbolic value of this action would have created a massive sectarian conflict which would have made the Troubles look like a garden tea party and it would have been conducted on an all Ireland basis.

Ireland would have had its own Balkans form of ethnic cleansing.

Lynch decided containing the conflict in the North was the best option.

And who would have been the unionist forces to fight this " all out war ". The fuking RUC and B Specials ( Reserve loyaist thugs of the RUC ). As badly armed as the Irish army were, what did they have, revoulvers and a few sten guns. I mean around 20 IRA men armed with a few bolt action rifles and hand guns managed to keep them and the loyalist mobs at bay at the bottom of the Falls Rd for a ferw days and men just armed with petrol bombs in Derry for Gods sake.

Don't give us this big unionist backlash " Balkans form of ethnic cleansing " BS :rolleyes:

If the Irish army had gone it, it would have had the full backing of the International community, the USA especially. And not just Irish America, the plight of teh Civil Rights marches etc obviously had huge resonations with the American public. Something like the Suez crisis in 1956 of which britain learned a very, very hard lesson.

But I can tell you what the theme and conclusion of the programme is going to be. Well, Fianna Fail the Republican party so dearly wanted to live up to it's rethoric of the 30' 40's 50' and 60's - " the cause of our fathers, we'll be with you all the way men " etc, etc :rolleyes: - but that they decided in a genuine humanitiarian concern that it would be better not to intervene and though we had bloodshed for 25 years, it was all for the better somehow:rolleyes: and the Good Friday Agreement is the be all and end all for everyone and aren't we such a great little nation, blah, blah, blah ..............

Kev_ps3

Why would it have been "mass suicide for the Irish"?? I would image our army would be as big if not bigger then the amount of British soldiers stationed in the North at the time. What huge advantage would the British have to wipe out the Irish army? Both carry guns ffs.
I agree obviously a prolonged conflict would see a defeat for the Irish troops when British troops from England/Scotland arrived..

eoin2nc

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Why would it have been "mass suicide for the Irish"?? I would image our army would be as big if not bigger then the amount of British soldiers stationed in the North at the time. What huge advantage would the British have to wipe out the Irish army? Both carry guns ffs.
I agree obviously a prolonged conflict would see a defeat for the Irish troops when British troops from England/Scotland arrived..

How long would it have taken aircraft based in Britain to reach Dublin?

Ri_Nollaig

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Why would it have been "mass suicide for the Irish"?? I would image our army would be as big if not bigger then the amount of British soldiers stationed in the North at the time. What huge advantage would the British have to wipe out the Irish army? Both carry guns ffs.
I agree obviously a prolonged conflict would see a defeat for the Irish troops when British troops from England/Scotland arrived..

The British would have definitely sent more in, and completely outclass anything the Irish army has. What could we have used to stop the obvious airstrikes, naval bombardments they would have used?

TheZohanS

Had we invaded the North and had our ass handed to us by the British you would have seen Irish men across the country volunteering.

The British would have been defeated, no question about it.

Dartz

Let's have a bit of fun with this scenario... see how many ways it could've screwed up. None of this is plausible for a couple of hundred reasons, but it's kinda interesting in it's own way... it matches our sense of inflated self importance, and I like waffling out my hole.

So then, maybe we join the game of brinkmanship. Ask for political help from the US, and the Irish-American lobby.... maybe hint that we might ask for help from the only country to recognise the provisional Irish Republic in 1919 if they turn us down.

(They'd probably still turn us down anyway, and laugh at such an empty threat, because they know the Soviets are smart enough not get involved.)

US goes to the Security council.... if it comes up for a vote, Britain would probably veto it anyway. So then, the aim would be to put the British in the position where vetoing the resolution would be the least distasteful option.

What could be more distasteful to the British than UN peacekeepers on their territory?

Again, that's where everything falls down.

The only way the Irish Army could've presented a credible threat would've been to arm up and mobilise extensively, which would've been bloody obvious to the rest of the world, expensive as hell, and take a long time to do. Atleast double the manpower would be needed. How? Either through national service, or a recruitment drive.

The aim of course, not being to beat the British Army in an outright war, but to discourage them from making war necessary. They'd win, but they'd be bloodied as hell to do it.

We probably would've had to purchase export-edition Soviet gear, or expensive handme-downs from the US that were already a decade out of date, but still more modern than what we had at the time. So that's Either F104 starfighters, or Mig-21's. Long range isn't an issue, just something that can maintain a credible air defence against British Lightning jets, and maybe a V-bomber or two if they want to get snitty.

Armour would by necessity have come from whoever we bought the aircraft from. So that's either a the T-62, or M48/M-60's depending on where we're shopping.

Finally, some Anti-aircraft missiles, to station around Baldonnel, Shannon and Leinster house, and the Guinness Brewery.

Navy... well, that one will have to do without.

The aim of course, not being to build an army to beat the British, but one that could mount a credible defence, one which, with support of the local population, could be a real headache in NI.

Now then, it's 1975-78, and we have all that ready to go. The Troubles are getting into their most brutal years. Station that lot along the border and deliver the message to London... Stop this secretarian violence against nationalists, and get the North under control, or we will.

They'll probably just laugh anyway.

But....Having this threat sitting on the border will encourage the British to increase their troop presence in the North. There's a credible threat to be defended against now, isn't there? Ideally, this will lead to a clampdown on both Unionist and Nationalist paramilitaries, who will be interfering with their ability to garrison. They could also stamp out collusion between the RUC and loyalist paramilitaries. (In actuallity, it'd probably be a one sided response and provoke the whole bloody province and destroy any chance of peaceful resolution for some time.)

Republican terrorist attacks would ratchet up, and the British response would probably go well beyond 'internment' as they struggle to regain control. It would be bloody, and it would be horrific, beyond what actually happened in the 80's

But it would also blacken Britain's international reputation.

They will probably demand that we bring the IRA under control within our country. It only makes sense that we agree... The IRA by their very nature are an organisation treasonous to this countries government.... membership of the IRA should be tried as treason and punished accordingly. Anyone remember the penalty for treason in the 1980's?

This make us look good. We're doing our part for security within our own territory, and we're military capable of controlling Republicans. We're accepting nationalist refugees from the deteriorating North, and in general being sensible... still offering military assistance to the British security forces....

By the mid to late 80's, the North has probably either gone the way of the Balkans in the 90's, is going the way Afghanistan did for the Soviets....or they've managed to brutally regain control through judicious and excessive application of military force, killed hundreds of thousands on both sides and generally made themselves look like dicks.

While the Argentinians have probably helped themselves to the Malvinas while the British we're busy dealing with their local problems.

Unless they've regained control by the 90's, they'll probobably be losing all taste for a brutal multi-sided conflict they just can't win.Coffins are shipping back daily, it's bleeding money. Peace negotiations won't work.... both sides are still too polarised by the British troop surge of the mid 70's.... They might just say 'To hell with this' and either pull out, or agree to an international peacekeeping mission.

If they agree to the peacekeeping mission... huzzah... we've achieved our aims from 1969. The UN moves in... they stand around.... distribute food and generally look good while watching the civil war continue. Thousands more die.

If they pull out,... huzzah.... we've achieved our aims of a United Ireland without a firing a single shot. At least up until the moment we realise that half of the North just doesn't want us to be there.... queue a few more decades of secretarian slaughter, and the country is probabbly already a bankrupt banana republic from paying for all that military stuff, and we've probably caused a brutal civil war that will last well into the next century.

But we still won.... sort of.

We bankrupted the country, the celtic tiger and EU membership will probably never happen, and we've caused the deaths of thousands... but we won.

JONJO THE MISER

Of course the Irish times would never think it would work because its founded as a Protestant newspaper and by the elities. If we had of Invaded the north all hell would of broken loose but lets not forget that America would not stand idly by and watch as the Irish were slaughtered, tens of thousands of Irish Americans would of come to Ireland to Join our fight or else the American army would of came in with the U.N, could you actually imagine if J.F.K had not been killed and had been President, there would be no way in hell he would of allowed mass Irish killings by the Brits.

rossie1977

TheZohan wrote: »

Had we invaded the North and had our ass handed to us by the British you would have seen Irish men across the country volunteering.

The British would have been defeated, no question about it.

just like 1916 right

Ri_Nollaig

Dartz wrote: »

...

atleast we won

Dr. Baltar

It never would have happened.

No EU membership.
The whole country would probably be occupied by the British, leading to War of Independence 2.0 and more bloodshed.
It just never would have worked.
Our nation would still be feeling the effects now.

GalwayKiefer

DublinWriter wrote: »

He maintained at the time that his unit had received orders to go into position just outside Fermanagh and were actually five miles across the border with a small field gun when they received orders to head back to their base ASAP.

I've never been able to verify his story.

I've heard 2 similar stories from family members who've served in the DF. Has anyone heard of the units who did/were about to go across the border meeting up with IRA members to act as guides/intel?

JONJO THE MISER

Happy Monday wrote: »

When Lynch made that speech Protestants across the North were preparing for an all out war to defend their little corner of her Majesty's realm.

Had the Irish Army invaded the symbolic value of this action would have created a massive sectarian conflict which would have made the Troubles look like a garden tea party and it would have been conducted on an all Ireland basis.

Ireland would have had its own Balkans form of ethnic cleansing.

Lynch decided containing the conflict in the North was the best option.

Surely you dont mean all of Ireland, you think the Prods could get and etnic cleanse even a mile over the border, not likely, the general Irish population would mobilise and kick those Prods across the Irish sea, you have to remember we Catholics were the majority in the island of Ireland.

PK2008

There wouldnt have been any UN intervention as Britain is/was a permanant member of the UN security council and would have vetoed it.

There is no way the US would get involved as it was steeped in the Vietnam war at the time and had its own civil issues to deal with. Plus the ties between Britain and the US have always been much stronger than Ireland and the US considering they both fought side by side in WW2 and stood side by side against Russia in the cold war.

Lynch's statement was a master-stroke, he said just enough to make the British intervene while not enough to provoke an all out war.

Anyone who beleives we would have stood a chance against the British army is a fantasist.

darkman2

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/irish-army-planned-to-attack-belfast-14474357.html

Irish army planned to attack Belfast
Monday, 31 August 2009


Military documents declassified by the Irish government show that the Irish army planned to launch guerrilla attacks in Belfast in 1969.


According to the details revealed in the Sunday Times, among strategic locations to be targeted were the BBC’s television studios, the docks, airport and key industries.

According to the documents declassified in 2004, the guerrilla plot, codenamed Exercise Armageddon, was designed to draw Northern Ireland security forces away from border towns, allowing Irish troops to be established there.

In a TV documentary, presenter Tom Clonan, a security analyst, says the proposed guerrilla forces would have been Irish soldiers trained for special forces operations.

The documents show that a special board set up to look at the Republic’s response to the Troubles outbreak, ruled out a conventional military operation.

The strategy was to use an unconventional plan to defend nationalists living in Northern Ireland.

The papers reveal 2,817 troops were needed for the operation, but only 2,136 were available.

Mr Clonan said the papers tell of how army strategists drew up military plans after then Taoiseach Jack Lynch said in August 1969 that the Irish government would not stand by and watch innocent people being hurt.

The historic October 1969 document noted the majority of vital installations — such as Belfast city airport, the television studios, docks and main industries — are located in the north-eastern part of the province, some distance from the border, and suggested operations should be unconventional.

Mr Clonan said the second part of the plan was about launching two infantry-company attacks, with about 120 troops, into Derry and Newry. He said, according to the document, the operation would have to be unilateral — with no declaration of war.

It would be an attack without warning.

In the document, military planners say an attack would leave the south exposed to the threat of retaliatory punitive military action by UK forces on the Republic and concluded any operations undertaken against Northern Ireland would be “militarily unsound”.

Apparently, lack of morale was a problem facing the Irish army.

Military officials also planned for soldiers being cut off in Donegal, if British forces broke through between Belleek and Ballyshannon.

However, details of the deliberations at the time reveal that planners said because of the vulnerability of the county of Donegal, plans should be prepared to provide for the continued existence there of the Republic’s units, should the area be isolated by British action.

Belfast Telegraph

JONJO THE MISER

Even if America had not of intervened, there is no doubt that tens of thousands of Irish americans would of came to Ireland to fight the Brits and every man in this country would moblise with any weapon they could and march towards the border and kick those Prods all the way up the Glens of Antrim, lets not forget the Hundreds of THousands of Irish in Britain at the time, they would of done domestic attacks in Britain and terrorised the cities of Britain.

PK2008

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Even if America had not of intervened, there is no doubt that tens of thousands of Irish americans would of came to Ireland to fight the Brits and every man in this country would moblise with any weapon they could and march towards the border and kick those Prods all the way up the Glens of Antrim, lets not forget the Hundreds of THousands of Irish in Britain at the time, they would of done domestic attacks in Britain and terrorised the cities of Britain.

I doubt either the British or US gov would allow them to travel to Ireland if all out war was declared, even then I doubt so many Irish americans or Irish Britons would bother- they didnt in the war of independance, why would they in this one?

The irish government and army would be destroyed very quickly and the IRA were also disorganised at the time meaning there would have been little structure to any guerilla campaign.

Lynch did the right thing, and becuase of it he probably saved thousands

PirateShampoo

TheZohan wrote: »

Had we invaded the North and had our ass handed to us by the British you would have seen Irish men across the country volunteering.

The British would have been defeated, no question about it.

Really, so you would have a couple of thousand poorly armed civilians fighting against a trained well equipped regiments. Ireland had no air support what so ever and would of been tactically bombed into oblivion.