Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

lucernarian

That's not an iron-clad rule. I know Kilkeel will be 2/3rds analogue power at switchover, according to the arquiva document I have.

mrdtv

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

That's not an iron-clad rule. I know Kilkeel will be 2/3rds analogue power at switchover, according to the arquiva document I have.

Its the general rule for main stations, excepting a few such as Blaen-Plwyf which is much higher! For relays such as Kilkeel it varies because of their low power. Inputting IOM postcodes on the DUK trade view indicates very good reception in 2013 off Kilkeel DSO which augurs well for ROI eastern seaboard overspill. BTW the Llandona DSO later in the autumn should give better reception of Kippure/Three Rock SFN as Llandona vacates 54,58, 61,64.!

oldbat

Ger Roe wrote: »

Just for info :

I changed polarity (to Horizontal) on my broad antenna in Kilpedder and aimed it towards Preseli (previously vertical and pointed at Afron)

Following Black Briar's advice I panned for Five UK analogue but the signal strength and quality was poor, even in the best position. I went ahead and scanned for digital anyway and while the BBC mux could be received, it was prone to breakup and was not reliable enough to view.

It just might help someone to know that it doesn't look like Preseli is receiveable as far north as Kilpedder Co Wicklow. I will try to receive digital from Afron when it becomes available.

This reception report by Ger Roe is well intentioned but totally misleading.

The correct conclusion from the experiment with the grid aerial is that you could get the BBC mux with a crappy fire guard so replacing it with a proper fringe aerial will provide decent reception.

A grid aerial, aka 'fire guard', is a wideband aerial intended for local to medium reception to about 20-30 miles maximum from the transmitter.

Like all wideband aerials the peak is in the higher channels i.e. in group C/D. Typical (mis)use is for situations where many trees or buildings are in the way as it has a wide acceptance angle. An old original design with a flat director will have an acceptance angle of 60 degrees and newer ones with the edges of the director bent inwards towards the dipoles will have an acceptance angle of around 40-30 degrees. That said, a large sized log periodic should be tried first and alternative mounting positions should always be considered first - often they are on 20-30 foot masts when clearer line of sight to a transmitter is available at the bottom of a garden or between the tree trunks. All too often they are used for no reason other than to provide an excuse to charge more. They look unusual so people assume they are special. In fact they are just 4 small grid shaped reflectors behind 4 simple dipoles cut to cover each of the 4 UHF bands then phased together, usually without a balun which would reduce out of band interference. Ghosting is now an irrelevance with digital signals, though delayed multipath signals may remain a rare problem.

Gain is about 10dBi which is less than a 10 element Antiference yagi. I have lived in various bad reception areas and in one of my tests years ago the older version of the Antiference RX12 had given a superior analogue picture to an 18 element contract aerial, though with a wider acceptance angle. The wider acceptance angle might have meant more ghosting, especially in a built up area, but a proper non contract 18 element should be used then, with a 20dB variable attenuator in the event of overloading, particularly in summer. In severe cases, a horizontally stacked array could have been used with one or more attenuators.

At this point you must have realized that a fire guard is the wrong aerial for Arfon analogue or digital. Is the mast head amp a crappy red thing with exposed PCB inside which will pick up any interference from miles around instead of a proper sealed metal box with F connectors costing only a bit more? Did the installer have a huge Stetson hat and cowboy boots? Did he demand to be paid in US dollars? Did he arrive in with all his fire guards chucked in waggon pulled by a knackered horse? Do you suspect he may have expected you to call back and pay more money for the aerial he should have put in in the first place but didn't because he likes to visit several times to work an eventual miracle which would cost 2-3 times what it should have cost?

The correct use of grid aerials for fringe reception is by using a dual or quad phased array. In both cases the acceptance angle is much narrower. With two side by side gain is raised +3dBi. In quad formation, an improvement of +6dBi should be achieved. Two cross bars are used to mount the four grid aerials so they form the corners of a square. This kind of install requires several T&K pairs, steel masts and guy wires, or a proper tower. Where professional (re)broadcasters use arrays of 2, 4, 8, 12 or 16 aerials it is to have a very high CNR ratio and low BER for rebroadcast, as noise in a broadcast situation would just multiply in the chain. That is way in excess of what is required for domestic reception. Fortunately, there is no need for these arrays. The grids were briefly fashionable in the 1980s, and were soon eclipsed by the continuing development of the yagi.

An Antiference XG16EW has a peak gain of around 17dBi. Which is the eqivalent of 4 grids. By using satellite grade cable all through, with a proper sealed metal box in plastic cover type low noise 26dB amplifier and matching power supply, all with F connectors, you should have excellent reception. Tilting it upwards by a slight amount, 3-4 degrees above horizontal, may help maximize the signal. If you have to use any combiners or splitters, diplexers, band or channel pass, etc, use a proper one with F connectors for maximum signal retention, least impedance mismatch and lowest noise. At any rate it should be mounted in free space at least 3 wavelengths from any surface, in practical terms at least 3 feet or more. A 10 foot pole may be the best compromise of height and weight.

By comparison, the shorter and lighter Antiference XG10EW, which also has x shaped directors, has a peak gain of around 15 dBi. Which is the equivalent of about 3 grid aerials. It catches the wind less than the XG16EW, which may be a consideration in some locations.

For a single aerial installation, the x director aerials are preferred as they cope better with any off axis signals resulting from the propagation distance. The x is not used because it is a fashionable shape for marketing purposes!

The Antiference TCX18EW, which has straight reflectors, has the same gain, a very slightly wider acceptance angle, and it catches the wind less than the x director aerials, so is perhaps the best choice for combining 2 together in a phased array, using a low loss combiner with F connectors. The gain could be up to 18dBi peak but a single Antiference XG16EW may be the easier option.

I refer to Antiference aerials here as I have used them for decades, though any reputable brand eg Blake, Triax etc would be fine. I would never use the Televes DAT aerials myself, they are far too big and heavy, likely to come down in the next gale.

An interesting experiment would be to try the log periodic LP28 Active which is actually intended for fringe use. It has a built in low noise amplifier. I think it may get the PSB muxes but I can't predict what the commercial muxes would be like. If it worked it might suit some people who needed a small highly wind resistant aerial perhaps on a 15 foot mast on an exposed windy coast.

Another useful experiment would be to try a phased array of 2 or 4 log periodic LP28F or similar, each of which which have a quoted gain of 9.5dBi, with a 26dB mast head amp variable amp.

The advantage of the log periodics is that they are lightweight. A single log periodic has about half the windage of the XG10EW and about a third of the windage of the XG16EW so they would be good where there are high winds or if they are on a high mast. Two professional quality high gain log periodics would be even better, the type used by broadcaster, but they are impossible to get. As far as I know they are hand made to order and cost hundreds each.

oldbat

Blaenplwyf Transmitter

Take a look at a photo. The main UHF array is hidden behind the huge white GRP shroud. Underneath are the exposed backup UHF transmitters. These are essentially dipoles in white oblong GRP boxs. They have been placed on three sides of a projection on the east side of the tower.

There are NO transmitters facing west. This is no surprise because it would cost a huge amount of money to manufacture and place the dipoles, to maintain them over their lifetime and to pump up enough electricity to illuminate a small town during its service life.

I have driven past Blaenplwyf a number of times. Recall its location. Why would anyone broadcast to the sea? Are the fishes going to queue up to buy new Freeview televisions in Aberystwyth? Will they be demanding that S4C makes a soap opera based on 20 Leagues Under the Sea?

So the Blaenplwyf switchover most likely will be a non-event. There is the remote chance of leakage, but if you look at a photo the mast itself is intentionally used to form a 90 degree null, 45 degrees on either side of a line drawn due west.

Preseli, Arfon and Llanddona are another matter. All illuminate to their west.

Arfon is very high and the land in the service area is mostly flat with some lumps, so the power does not have to be high. Llanddona serves a similar topography. The flatter areas are surrounded by the hills and mountains of Snowdonia, and the deep valleys that are inhabited have to be illuminated with relays. Many of the inhabitants will get Freesat to ensure continuity of service. Due to the intensity of precipitation in the mountains a decent solid 60cm dish would be much better than a Zone 2 Sky mini dish, a cheapy Zone 1 would be useless, except to the Stetson wearers.

Preseli is surrounded by hills with some deep sinuous valleys and coastal inlets, often with a fair amount of trees to attenuate the signal at rooftop level. Therefore the power is high and radiated isotropically to overcome attenuation and weak but potentially disruptive multipath reflections.

So Preseli, Arfon and Llanddona will provide stable and reliable signals to the west throughout their service lives

prioryc

marclt wrote: »

They are all transmitting as normal. May be worth doing a manual search on the frequencies you're not picking up as expected...

Ch. 39, 42, (43), 45, 47, 49 and 51.

Let us know how you get on...

just done full rescan using Samsung freeview tv & windows media centre/blaze media usb
got 99 channels in on the samsung tv & 80 using the media player everything seems back to normal even found sky 3 on the first go @ 45% but i'll just put that down to the fine weather

P.s using the signal indicator on blaze media it said it found found two more 100% signals @ 501.00Mhz and again at around 800.00Mhz which were never there before ..any ideas what these are anyone??

oldbat

Can I suggest that any reception reports start with the type of aerial used, approximately how many elements it has, and whether or not they are x shaped elements?

It would be helpful to know if satellite grade cable has been used, and the amplification in dB of the mast head amp (usually around 10dB or 26dB). If the mast head amp is a crappy red plastic thing beloved of Stetson wearers, please don't fail to mention it as they are not really suitable for digital use (or VHF or indeed any use at all to be honest).

Mast head amps should be sealed metal boxes with F connectors in a plastic case, as should any combiners, splitters, diplexers, etc.

Approximate height of pole would also help.

This would help to estimate whether the set up is likely to be effective in the first place, and to give suggestions for improvement

mrdtv

oldbat wrote: »

This reception report by Ger Roe is well intentioned but totally misleading.

The correct conclusion from the experiment with the grid aerial is that you could get the BBC mux with a crappy fire guard so replacing it with a proper fringe aerial will provide decent reception.

A grid aerial, aka 'fire guard', is a wideband aerial intended for local to medium reception to about 20-30 miles maximum from the transmitter.

Like all wideband aerials the peak is in the higher channels i.e. in group C/D. Typical (mis)use is for situations where many trees or buildings are in the way as it has a wide acceptance angle. An old original design with a flat director will have an acceptance angle of 60 degrees and newer ones with the edges of the director bent inwards towards the dipoles will have an acceptance angle of around 40-30 degrees. That said, a large sized log periodic should be tried first and alternative mounting positions should always be considered first - often they are on 20-30 foot masts when clearer line of sight to a transmitter is available at the bottom of a garden or between the tree trunks. All too often they are used for no reason other than to provide an excuse to charge more. They look unusual so people assume they are special. In fact they are just 4 small grid shaped reflectors behind 4 simple dipoles cut to cover each of the 4 UHF bands then phased together, usually without a balun which would reduce out of band interference. Ghosting is now an irrelevance with digital signals, though delayed multipath signals may remain a rare problem.

Gain is about 10dBi which is less than a 10 element Antiference yagi. I have lived in various bad reception areas and in one of my tests years ago the older version of the Antiference RX12 had given a superior analogue picture to an 18 element contract aerial, though with a wider acceptance angle. The wider acceptance angle might have meant more ghosting, especially in a built up area, but a proper non contract 18 element should be used then, with a 20dB variable attenuator in the event of overloading, particularly in summer. In severe cases, a horizontally stacked array could have been used with one or more attenuators.

At this point you must have realized that a fire guard is the wrong aerial for Arfon analogue or digital. Is the mast head amp a crappy red thing with exposed PCB inside which will pick up any interference from miles around instead of a proper sealed metal box with F connectors costing only a bit more? Did the installer have a huge Stetson hat and cowboy boots? Did he demand to be paid in US dollars? Did he arrive in with all his fire guards chucked in waggon pulled by a knackered horse? Do you suspect he may have expected you to call back and pay more money for the aerial he should have put in in the first place but didn't because he likes to visit several times to work an eventual miracle which would cost 2-3 times what it should have cost?

The correct use of grid aerials for fringe reception is by using a dual or quad phased array. In both cases the acceptance angle is much narrower. With two side by side gain is raised +3dBi. In quad formation, an improvement of +6dBi should be achieved. Two cross bars are used to mount the four grid aerials so they form the corners of a square. This kind of install requires several T&K pairs, steel masts and guy wires, or a proper tower. Where professional (re)broadcasters use arrays of 2, 4, 8, 12 or 16 aerials it is to have a very high CNR ratio and low BER for rebroadcast, as noise in a broadcast situation would just multiply in the chain. That is way in excess of what is required for domestic reception. Fortunately, there is no need for these arrays. The grids were briefly fashionable in the 1980s, and were soon eclipsed by the continuing development of the yagi.

An Antiference XG16EW has a peak gain of around 17dBi. Which is the eqivalent of 4 grids. By using satellite grade cable all through, with a proper sealed metal box in plastic cover type low noise 26dB amplifier and matching power supply, all with F connectors, you should have excellent reception. Tilting it upwards by a slight amount, 3-4 degrees above horizontal, may help maximize the signal. If you have to use any combiners or splitters, diplexers, band or channel pass, etc, use a proper one with F connectors for maximum signal retention, least impedance mismatch and lowest noise. At any rate it should be mounted in free space at least 3 wavelengths from any surface, in practical terms at least 3 feet or more. A 10 foot pole may be the best compromise of height and weight.

By comparison, the shorter and lighter Antiference XG10EW, which also has x shaped directors, has a peak gain of around 15 dBi. Which is the equivalent of about 3 grid aerials. It catches the wind less than the XG16EW, which may be a consideration in some locations.

For a single aerial installation, the x director aerials are preferred as they cope better with any off axis signals resulting from the propagation distance. The x is not used because it is a fashionable shape for marketing purposes!

The Antiference TCX18EW, which has straight reflectors, has the same gain, a very slightly wider acceptance angle, and it catches the wind less than the x director aerials, so is perhaps the best choice for combining 2 together in a phased array, using a low loss combiner with F connectors. The gain could be up to 18dBi peak but a single Antiference XG16EW may be the easier option.

I refer to Antiference aerials here as I have used them for decades, though any reputable brand eg Blake, Triax etc would be fine. I would never use the Televes DAT aerials myself, they are far too big and heavy, likely to come down in the next gale.

An interesting experiment would be to try the log periodic LP28 Active which is actually intended for fringe use. It has a built in low noise amplifier. I think it may get the PSB muxes but I can't predict what the commercial muxes would be like. If it worked it might suit some people who needed a small highly wind resistant aerial perhaps on a 15 foot mast on an exposed windy coast.

Another useful experiment would be to try a phased array of 2 or 4 log periodic LP28F or similar, each of which which have a quoted gain of 9.5dBi, with a 26dB mast head amp variable amp.

The advantage of the log periodics is that they are lightweight. A single log periodic has about half the windage of the XG10EW and about a third of the windage of the XG16EW so they would be good where there are high winds or if they are on a high mast. Two professional quality high gain log periodics would be even better, the type used by broadcaster, but they are impossible to get. As far as I know they are hand made to order and cost hundreds each.

Very perceptive. I liked the Fracarro Gold and Silver with built-in mastheads with 26dB variable gain control. These are compact, sturdy and one I know used in deep fringe DTT remains firmly in place despite its windy location and it does the business. Of course there are many other good vendors and as you say grids are noddy for long distance reception. Blaen Plwyf: the BBC has met a FOI request to disclose the HRP patterns of all DSO stations in the UK so we shall shortly see its HRP pattern. It is surprising that Blaen-Plwyf is 40kW whereas its West Wales stablemates are all 20Kw in the DSO era...

Digifriendly

oldbat wrote: »

Blaenplwyf Transmitter
Take a look at a photo. The main UHF array is hidden behind the huge white GRP shroud. Underneath are the exposed backup UHF transmitters. These are essentially dipoles in white oblong GRP boxs. They have been placed on three sides of a projection on the east side of the tower.
There are NO transmitters facing west. This is no surprise because it would cost a huge amount of money to manufacture and place the dipoles, to maintain them over their lifetime and to pump up enough electricity to illuminate a small town during its service life.
I have driven past Blaenplwyf a number of times. Recall its location. Why would anyone broadcast to the sea? Are the fishes going to queue up to buy new Freeview televisions in Aberystwyth? Will they be demanding that S4C makes a soap opera based on 20 Leagues Under the Sea?
So the Blaenplwyf switchover most likely will be a non-event. There is the remote chance of leakage, but if you look at a photo the mast itself is intentionally used to form a 90 degree null, 45 degrees on either side of a line drawn due west.

Fascinating and informative post about Blaenplwyf. Just out of interest are there any houses at all to west of Blaenplwyf between the transmitter and the sea? If so are they still likely to get decent signal being so close to transmitter or could it be a problem for them?

oldbat

mrdtv wrote: »

Very perceptive. I liked the Fracarro Gold and Silver with built-in mastheads with 26dB variable gain control. These are compact, sturdy and one I know used in deep fringe DTT remains firmly in place despite its windy location and it does the business. Of course there are many other good vendors and as you say grids are noddy for long distance reception. Blaen Plwyf: the BBC has met a FOI request to disclose the HRP patterns of all DSO stations in the UK so we shall shortly see its HRP pattern. It is surprising that Blaen-Plwyf is 40kW whereas its West Wales stablemates are all 20Kw in the DSO era...

My perceptiveness comes from years of suffering in RF blackspots!

Fracarro have a good reputation on the continent.

They have an updated version of a West German Fuba design (its that old) which is excellent. Another manufacturer on the continent makes a similar one.

Essentially they are about 2.2 meters long and have either bare wire triangular bow tie shaped directors or odd S shape directors. The reflector is usually, but not always, a wire grid which is more dense close to the aerial boom. They have excellent f/b ratios and high selectivity, with a gain of about 17-18dBi.

Well recommended if you can find one. Should be cheaper if you visit France, Germany or Italy and bring one back (explain that suspicious X-ray to customs ) but not if you have to have it sent over.

Looking forward to seeing those radiation patterns on ukfree tv.

I know that area of Wales and the reason Blaenplwyf is so high powered is because it illuminates up the west facing valleys thus avoiding spending huge amounts of money on expensive relays to very few people. It is actually very well located when you bear that in mind. For people in real RF blackspots, Freesat is their saviour.

mrdtv

oldbat wrote: »

My perceptiveness comes from years of suffering in RF blackspots!

Fracarro have a good reputation on the continent.

They have an updated version of a West German Fuba design (its that old) which is excellent. Another manufacturer on the continent makes a similar one.

Essentially they are about 2.2 meters long and have either bare wire triangular bow tie shaped directors or odd S shape directors. The reflector is usually, but not always, a wire grid which is more dense close to the aerial boom. They have excellent f/b ratios and high selectivity, with a gain of about 17-18dBi.

Well recommended if you can find one. Should be cheaper if you visit France, Germany or Italy and bring one back (explain that suspicious X-ray to customs ) but not if you have to have it sent over.

Looking forward to seeing those radiation patterns on ukfree tv.

I know that area of Wales and the reason Blaenplwyf is so high powered is because it illuminates up the west facing valleys thus avoiding spending huge amounts of money on expensive relays to very few people. It is actually very well located when you bear that in mind. For people in real RF blackspots, Freesat is their saviour.

I wonder however if they have changed the antenna system at Blaen-Plwyf, all the others have the new type such as Preseli, Arfon etc? (Cost of ownership reasons) Its analogue coverage map on mb21 is very interesting. As to the Fracarro did the business in a part of East Down where there was supposed to be no Divis DTT reliably (has worked perfectly ever since), local installer was v impressed. I think you can get them at fracarro.co.uk, of course they were designed for the heavily congested Italian RF market. When in Courtown years ago I go BBC2 Ch 27 BP off an antiference log used for caravanning (it of course did the business too, once you started talking about logs I was quite sentimental!)

The key with the forthcoming Preseli/Arfon tests is:

a) Did they good analogue?

b) Does Freeview work out of the box ( I like the Philips DTR 220 etc)?

c) As you say what is the antenna system, intervening terrain, height, amplification etc?

d) I think the more results the merrier and the sooner its demoed in local shops the better, because seeing is so believing

e) if you have to spend money the Freesat price point becomes a consideration!

oldbat

Digifriendly wrote: »

Fascinating and informative post about Blaenplwyf. Just out of interest are there any houses at all to west of Blaenplwyf between the transmitter and the sea? If so are they still likely to get decent signal being so close to transmitter or could it be a problem for them?

It is right beside the sea. No houses there as far as I recall. Quite a nice location actually.

That close the power would be so high you could get a signal on bare wire anywhere around the transmitter. Anyone living nearby may need several attenuators in series to prevent overloading.

The shape of the coast is such that it covers about 190 degrees to the north and south and east of the transmitter. The UHF array covers 270 degrees and so actually covers the Lleyn Peninsula and much of the Pembroke National Park area.

The VHF band II arrays for FM radio are usually even more leaky. No problems when driving around listening to the radio until you really get into the moutains and deep valleys.

So there should be no problem for anyone 'behind' the transmitter but still on Welsh soil.

oldbat

mrdtv wrote: »

I wonder however if they have changed the antenna system at Blaen-Plwyf, all the others have the new type such as Preseli, Arfon etc? (Cost of ownership reasons) Its analogue coverage map on mb21 is very interesting. As to the Fracarro did the business in a part of East Down where there was supposed to be no Divis DTT reliably (has worked perfectly ever since), local installer was v impressed. I think you can get them at fracarro.co.uk, of course they were designed for the heavily congested Italian RF market. When in Courtown years ago I go BBC2 Ch 27 BP off an antiference log used for caravanning (it of course did the business too, once you started talking about logs I was quite sentimental!)

The key with the forthcoming Preseli/Arfon tests is:

a) Did they good analogue?

b) Does Freeview work out of the box ( I like the Philips DTR 220 etc)?

c) As you say what is the antenna system, intervening terrain, height, amplification etc?

d) I think the more results the merrier and the sooner its demoed in local shops the better, because seeing is so believing

e) if you have to spend money the Freesat price point becomes a consideration!

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

More reception reports are necessary to help work out some kind of guidelines that will prevent people from wasting time and money. I am too far north to receive either transmitter to help out there.

Going by the switch over in England, the increase in power of the digital signals seems to be excellent for fringe reception so that is a good reason to be very optimistic.

Looking at it from another angle, perhaps the lack of people complaining on this board that their reception from Preseli is worse when they got a Freeview box or digital TV might be a good sign. It may indicate that many people have successfully used their existing analogue aerial for Preseli with a digital TV or box giving good reception on the BBC mux. They may be waiting for the rest to become available. People tend to be lazy and not bother to post their success and only post if they need help with a failure.

Or perhaps they are totally befuddled by the thing and just choose to ignore it?

If awareness of the switch over date was good then it would only be a matter of waiting until then but the media reports quoted in other threads and those sky leaflets suggest the level of ignorance is still too high.

Perhaps a door to door survey might be the only way to find out, asking at any house with an aerial pointing to Wales?!


For many people Freesat is not too bad if you do it yourself, or can get a friend or relative to help. Cheap quad LNBs make it easier to supply several tvs. The only real problem is that Freeview is still highly desirable because Quest, Yesterday, Dave and some other channels are not on Freesat and are not likely to be. So people will need to hedge their bets and keep both systems.

Italy is in the process of switching over to digital and the airwaves seem to be just as bunged as ever! They do love their tv in Italy. They seem to be a nation of addicts judging by the forest of aerials in quaint ancient towns.

oldbat

Of course, many people may not even be aware that Arfon will not have Quest or Yesterday, though it will have Freeview HD.

Imagine what confusion that may cause for the average person.

And at least as much annoyance as the Welsh people who have to rely on it and who no doubt feel very short changed without the commercial muxes.

At any rate, Preseli is the most important one, pity anyone forced to rely on Arfon.

fat-tony

oldbat wrote: »

It is right beside the sea. No houses there as far as I recall. Quite a nice location actually.

That close the power would be so high you could get a signal on bare wire anywhere around the transmitter. Anyone living nearby may need several attenuators in series to prevent overloading.

The shape of the coast is such that it covers about 190 degrees to the north and south and east of the transmitter. The UHF array covers 270 degrees and so actually covers the Lleyn Peninsula and much of the Pembroke National Park area.

The VHF band II arrays for FM radio are usually even more leaky. No problems when driving around listening to the radio until you really get into the moutains and deep valleys.

So there should be no problem for anyone 'behind' the transmitter but still on Welsh soil.

Great posts oldbat (or oldwat?):)
I read the post from Ger Roe with interest and was somewhat disappointed with his results until I realised he was using a grid antenna. Twenty years ago I used to live a couple of miles south of Kilpeddar and I also had a grid antenna at the time (a Colour King I think?) which was pointed at Arfon.
I'm now based in Greystones and have a contract aerial (18 element wideband yagi) which I've been using unamplified to pick up signal from Three Rock and Kippure on different occasions. I picked up a masthead amp (properly screened oldbat!) during the week and I'm just waiting on a ladder so I can try out reception from Preseli. I will be using CT100 cable and a 16 - 24db variable amp. I too, thought that Lllanddona would be a long-term better bet for me seeing as Preseli is 100+ miles from me. Current wisdom seems to be that Llanddona will not be a runner, but looking at the terrain between me and it, it would seem to be a possibility once it comes on stream at full power next month.;)

Digifriendly

oldbat wrote: »

For many people Freesat is not too bad if you do it yourself, or can get a friend or relative to help. Cheap quad LNBs make it easier to supply several tvs. The only real problem is that Freeview is still highly desirable because Quest, Yesterday and some other channels are not on Freeview and are not likely to be. So people will need to hedge their bets and keep both systems.

Think this should read Freesat rather than Freeview as these channels are on the latter but not the former. BTW Five on Sky digital in NI is now FTA and unencrpyted (EPG version not one added through 'other channels') possibly indicating that Five's associate channels may soon be available FTA and on Freesat too.

oldbat

fat-tony wrote: »

Great posts oldbat (or oldwat?):)
I read the post from Ger Roe with interest and was somewhat disappointed with his results until I realised he was using a grid antenna. Twenty years ago I used to live a couple of miles south of Kilpeddar and I also had a grid antenna at the time (a Colour King I think?) which was pointed at Arfon.
I'm now based in Greystones and have a contract aerial (18 element wideband yagi) which I've been using unamplified to pick up signal from Three Rock and Kippure on different occasions. I picked up a masthead amp (properly screened oldbat!) during the week and I'm just waiting on a ladder so I can try out reception from Preseli. I will be using CT100 cable and a 16 - 24db variable amp. I too, thought that Lllanddona would be a long-term better bet for me seeing as Preseli is 100+ miles from me. Current wisdom seems to be that Llanddona will not be a runner, but looking at the terrain between me and it, it would seem to be a possibility once it comes on stream at full power next month.;)

That will be an excellent experiment because I guess it will be the sort of setup the average person would get from most installers.

Though I dare say the amp may be superior!

In my opinion these modern amps and cables will easily give excellent service for 15-20 years, especially compared to the rubbish that I used to use years ago

Going by the switchover in the south west of England which has lots of lumpy hills the digital signal seems to be much more robust than many people expected. People are receiving Caradon Hill in Cornwall in Swansea which is a huge distance, with over two thirds of the path over hilly land.

Still, it is a bit of a waiting game till the 18th of November when Llanddona switches.

oldbat

Digifriendly wrote: »

Think this should read Freesat rather than Freeview as these channels are on the latter but not the former. BTW Five on Sky digital in NI is now FTA and unencrpyted (EPG version not one added through 'other channels') possibly indicating that Five's associate channels may soon be available FTA and on Freesat too.

guilty as charged


I have edited it so it reads properly now.


You may well be right there.

I would guess that Five may be influenced by viewing figures and the potential for attracting more advertising revenue. I expect more people would be watching it if it was FTA.

The advertising market has been reported in the media to be very tight with the recession so maybe that will force them to make the niche channels free to everyone.

mrdtv

oldbat wrote: »

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

More reception reports are necessary to help work out some kind of guidelines that will prevent people from wasting time and money. I am too far north to receive either transmitter to help out there.

Going by the switch over in England, the increase in power of the digital signals seems to be excellent for fringe reception so that is a good reason to be very optimistic.

Looking at it from another angle, perhaps the lack of people complaining on this board that their reception from Preseli is worse when they got a Freeview box or digital TV might be a good sign. It may indicate that many people have successfully used their existing analogue aerial for Preseli with a digital TV or box giving good reception on the BBC mux. They may be waiting for the rest to become available. People tend to be lazy and not bother to post their success and only post if they need help with a failure.

Or perhaps they are totally befuddled by the thing and just choose to ignore it?

If awareness of the switch over date was good then it would only be a matter of waiting until then but the media reports quoted in other threads and those sky leaflets suggest the level of ignorance is still too high.

Perhaps a door to door survey might be the only way to find out, asking at any house with an aerial pointing to Wales?!


For many people Freesat is not too bad if you do it yourself, or can get a friend or relative to help. Cheap quad LNBs make it easier to supply several tvs. The only real problem is that Freeview is still highly desirable because Quest, Yesterday, Dave and some other channels are not on Freesat and are not likely to be. So people will need to hedge their bets and keep both systems.

Italy is in the process of switching over to digital and the airwaves seem to be just as bunged as ever! They do love their tv in Italy. They seem to be a nation of addicts judging by the forest of aerials in quaint ancient towns.

Thanks! Its really a logical process. The thing about Blaen-Plwyf which intrigues me is that BBC reception says its analogue ERP is 100kW and by the usual rule its DSO ERP should be 20kW but its going to be 3dB higher than that at 40kW. I also can't see them sticking with those EMI UHF cylinders: everywhere else they are being skipped and it has to have beams to its NW and SW which will include Ireland. In Courtown in 1971 it was Grade 5 on BBC2 along with Caldbeck which had just started. You are right about the superb English fringe reception on high power DSO services: in Weston-Super Mare they are getting perfect Caradon Hill well outside the analogue service area. I expect Preseli will work well, Arfon will be good and there will be surprises from Llandona and Blaen-Plwyf. This is, of course, RTE/BCI's worst nightmare as these stations will also have DVB-T2 muxes in the next couple of years but it could actually be a blessing in disguise for Ireland. Next Wednesday will be quite telling....

bmaxi

I picked up a cheap STB in B&Q just to test the reception here in Courtown. I don't have a roof aerial so I got into my attic with a cheap aluminium aerial I used to use for TV 3, I also had an old amp and power supply.
I was amazed, with the aerial just lying on a box I was able to pick up all the BBC channels perfectly at 85% signal and 77% quality, (also RTE and TV3 sound but no picture?)
I don't know why I didn't pick up anything else, someone on here might know, but it certainly bodes well for anyone with a decent aerial setup.
I'm not sure if weather conditions, clear and dry, contributed to the good reception.

mrdtv

bmaxi wrote: »

I picked up a cheap STB in B&Q just to test the reception here in Courtown. I don't have a roof aerial so I got into my attic with a cheap aluminium aerial I used to use for TV 3, I also had an old amp and power supply.
I was amazed, with the aerial just lying on a box I was able to pick up all the BBC channels perfectly at 85% signal and 77% quality, (also RTE and TV3 sound but no picture?)
I don't know why I didn't pick up anything else, someone on here might know, but it certainly bodes well for anyone with a decent aerial setup.
I'm not sure if weather conditions, clear and dry, contributed to the good reception.

Attaboy!. You are receiving the first high power DTT mux from Preseli (see if your box can look at signal information and see if its Preseli Channel 43 (650 Mhz): if it is well done. I suggest a retune on Wednesday as the others are coming across the Irish sea then. The reason you can't get Irish stations is that the cheapo UK boxes don't do Irish DTT which is MPEG4, you need more expensive boxes eg BT Vision, bespoke EU boxes or the forthcoming DVB-Tt boxes which are backwards compatible with Irish DTT. Let us know what you get on Wednesday when Preseli cuts over: for reference the channels are:

43 (on-air), 46, 50, 42, 45, 49. You may not get the last three as RTE Mount Leinster interferes with them. But the first three give you all the main UK terrestrial digital channels.

Good try: an outdoor antenna is on the cards. TRY it with a neighbour's Preseli system. Word of mouth is so important!!!

prioryc

bmaxi wrote: »

I picked up a cheap STB in B&Q just to test the reception here in Courtown. I don't have a roof aerial so I got into my attic with a cheap aluminium aerial I used to use for TV 3, I also had an old amp and power supply.
I was amazed, with the aerial just lying on a box I was able to pick up all the BBC channels perfectly at 85% signal and 77% quality, (also RTE and TV3 sound but no picture?)
I don't know why I didn't pick up anything else, someone on here might know, but it certainly bodes well for anyone with a decent aerial setup.
I'm not sure if weather conditions, clear and dry, contributed to the good reception.

Im in gorey and am getting 99 channels try the aerial outside for maybe better results & good weather does help like today ..next week u might get better results after analogue old channels switch off

prioryc

mrdtv wrote: »

Attaboy!. You are receiving the first high power DTT mux from Preseli (see if your box can look at signal information and see if its Preseli Channel 43 (650 Mhz):Let us know what you get on Wednesday when Preseli cuts over: for reference the channels are:

43 (on-air), 46, 50, 42, 45, 49. You may not get the last three as RTE Mount Leinster interferes with them. But the first three give you all the main UK terrestrial digital channels.

if u can use manual search as said above BBC is at 650Mhz ..u might find the rest here..
618.00MHz--Five U.S.A etc
642.00BBC Radio etc
650-BBC tv
666-Sky3/sky sports news
698.00 Virgin/dave ja vu
714.00 channel 4/ITV

all working well today 12/9/09

Good points by some of the new posters.

Just as a point of information.Blaenplwf analogue does make its way across to Arklow receivable with a group B.
With a group A aerial,I'd describe reception as equivalent to presely on a bad day.
I tried out a group A here a few years ago.
I'd suspect similar equipment would bring in similar "bad" reception anywhere along the wicklow coastline.
I'll make an observation though,it was the type of analogue reception with which the equivalent BBC A preseli 20kw signal would be receivable.

So it will be very interesting come the switchover there ESPECIALLY if they have a new array that by virtue of it's design is not so effecient at SW or West signal nulling.
I note that the new psb muxes will not be co channel with anything on Kippure/3rock or Mt Leinster.

I'm not sure what to make of arfons dso mind you as whilst it will be more robust,it is still only one tenth the strength of preseli so it might not be as reliable in poor weather as preseli and that might not be a selling point for it.

bmaxi

Had another look today and discovered a badly made connection, remade that and got a lot more channels including all the ITVs, Channel 4, More 4, E4, Yesterday, Daveja vu and Virgin 1+1 although strangely, not Virgin 1. Didn't get Sky 3 and ITV 2+1 is pixellating a bit but that may be down to poor quality cabling and connections. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the weather returns to normal but as it stands I'd be more than happy with the quality of reception.
What exactly is happening on Wednesday?

on wenesday all analogue is going off and most of the remaining digital channels will have their power increased by a factor of 15.

It will mean signal breakups will be very rare.

You will need to retune your box as everything moves frequency on that day also

fat-tony

Had a go at re-rigging my DTT setup today.
I have a cheapo contract-type wideband aerial from Woodies and a Labgear masthead amp (variable 16db - 24db), with CT100 cable.
Having decided in advance on Preseli as a likely transmitter, we pointed the aerial at South Wales (145 degrees true as per Google Earth) and checked UHF channel 43 on the Mvision combo. Boy was I surprised when we got 40% ss and 95% quality:eek:. Tweaked the direction to maximise signal and lost it completely:( Further faffing about brought a return of signal so we locked it off at that and I did a full scan.
CH43 pulled in a mux containing Dave, Price-drop TV, E4+1, SKY3, SKY News. Confused, because CH43 Preseli should have got me the BBCA mux
As far as I can see this is the Arqiva A mux (or MUXC or COM5), so I'm not sure where this is coming from. The signal gradually faded out over a 10 min period and returned after a while, so I'm assuming this is an atmospheric reception caused by high pressure lift conditions. I'm also picking up ARQB on CH40 and CH46, BBCA on CH25 and CH56, BBCA (Wales) on CH50 and a bunch of programmes identified as Video CH 8294, 8267, 8325, 8384, 8442, 8448, 8452 and 8353 on UHF CH66.

Anyone care to make a guess what transmitters I might be picking up?

Antenna

fat-tony wrote: »

The signal gradually faded out over a 10 min period and returned after a while, so I'm assuming this is an atmospheric reception caused by high pressure lift conditions.

absolutely due to atmospheric conditions. I was getting quite good reception of 'five' from presely on Ch 37 in south-east Co. Cork last night though faded down at times. This summer it has rarely been at a watchable signal level there.
The DTT on 43 was completely wiping out a weak relatively local analogue signal (delfector) I normally receive there on 43. I had no oppportunity to see if DX-dTT would decode there last night - I have a receiver but left at another premises.

fat-tony

fat-tony wrote: »

Had a go at re-rigging my DTT setup today.
I have a cheapo contract-type wideband aerial from Woodies and a Labgear masthead amp (variable 16db - 24db), with CT100 cable.
Having decided in advance on Preseli as a likely transmitter, we pointed the aerial at South Wales (145 degrees true as per Google Earth) and checked UHF channel 43 on the Mvision combo. Boy was I surprised when we got 40% ss and 95% quality:eek:. Tweaked the direction to maximise signal and lost it completely:( Further faffing about brought a return of signal so we locked it off at that and I did a full scan.
CH43 pulled in a mux containing Dave, Price-drop TV, E4+1, SKY3, SKY News. Confused, because CH43 Preseli should have got me the BBCA mux
As far as I can see this is the Arqiva A mux (or MUXC or COM5), so I'm not sure where this is coming from. The signal gradually faded out over a 10 min period and returned after a while, so I'm assuming this is an atmospheric reception caused by high pressure lift conditions. I'm also picking up ARQB on CH40 and CH46, BBCA on CH25 and CH56, BBCA (Wales) on CH50 and a bunch of programmes identified as Video CH 8294, 8267, 8325, 8384, 8442, 8448, 8452 and 8353 on UHF CH66.

Anyone care to make a guess what transmitters I might be picking up?

A combination of llandonna and Blaenplwyf.

marclt

Antenna wrote: »

absolutely due to atmospheric conditions. I was getting quite good reception of 'five' from presely on Ch 37 in south-east Co. Cork last night though faded down at times. This summer it has rarely been at a watchable signal level there.

Yes, I'm getting TV3/TG4 from Mullaghanish here in Pembs at the moment.

I'm not surprised by many of the posts regarding good quality reception. Preseli is only about 15 miles away from the nearest Welsh coastline. Carn Ingli to the east of Fishguard (south east of Newport) could pose problems for the south Wexford coast as has been described in other threads. But for the rest of the county and up along the east coast there is nothing in the way on this side.

Preseli reception used to be possible around Youghal, with virtually only seapath across the entire route it would be interesting to see if anyone is picking up here?

oldbat

Those contract aerials tend to have quite a wide acceptance angle, which doesn't help here.

On the other hand surely it won't be too long till the weather is back to nomal which would help.

Using the largest x beam yagi will give the narrowest beamwidth and the greatest rejection of off beam signals in one aerial. They are more expensive but should have a long life. Two smaller 18 element yagis side by side 1 m apart would give even better selectivity but would need a good mast. Best of all would be two log periodics but the gain of the commercially available ones is probably too low, best available is about 9.5dBi, just a bit better than a grid. If they were around 12-14dBi they would be the best solution possible.

Given how strong Preseli is and taking advantage of the lift, it might be possible to get a weak signal using the wrong polarization (vertical) which would show exactly where the transmitter is from your location. This would be easier with the analogue signals, I don't know if it can be done with digital signals. It is a long shot but may be worth trying. You will find that you have to make small precise turns to get the signal but then you will be pointing exactly at the transmitter and not slightly to either side.