I'm a non-believing Jew, but my son wants a barmitzvah.

Flamed Diving

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

There is a reason why 13 year olds are not allowed to engage in sexual activity. Perhaps you can work out why that is?
There is a reason why 13 year olds are allowed to emgage in religious activity. Perhaps you can work out whay that is?

In case you can't: it's because having sex is a far more emopional and potentially life-changing than choosing religion.

You can leave religions (and we're talking Judiasm and Catholicsm here, not "cults" - cults are different) but you can't undo a sexual act.

Now, enough of the condescention. Are we goin to discuss this like adults or not?

Nice how you danced around the 'vote' issue there. I also love how you boil everything down to its most myopic interpretation. However, I do find it boring to debate against, and very difficult not to resort to some form of condescention. So, I will pass.

dlofnep

Easier question, since nobody wants to answer my Irish guy question.

Can I convert to being a Jew?

Can I convert to being a black person?

Can I convert to being an oriental person?

Which of the above can I not convert to?

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

No, I can't tell if someone is Jewish. They fit the Jewish cliché - but not all Jewish people have the glasses stereotype and big nose. You are conveniently picking out people who fit a cliché.

I never said they all do, in fact I said the don't all look like that but many do. The people in those pictures are not dressing up to fit a cliche, that's just what they look like! The reason the cliche exists is that many of them look like that.

dlofnep wrote: »

Now pick out which in my picture is Irish.

The guy in the middle. What's your point? Irish people, like Jewish people, have certain genetic traits that separate them from other groups and that often allow you to identify them.

Unless you're going to tell me that one of the other people has an Irish parent to show that not all Irish people fit the cliche? I have already acknowledged that not all Jews fit the cliche so what would be your point?

Zillah

dlofnep wrote: »

Zillah, which one of these is Irish.

http://image60.webshots.com/60/5/83/45/2393583450086310119maBxmQ_fs.jpg

I never claimed I could pick out an Irish person from a crowd.

dlofnep wrote: »

No, I can't tell if someone is Jewish. They fit the Jewish cliché - but not all Jewish people have the glasses stereotype and big nose. You are conveniently picking out people who fit a cliché.

A cliche you say? A cliche... good God. We've been sitting here trying to convince you that Jewish people tend to share certain physical characteristics and you dismiss them as being a CLICHE.

Yeah black people with wider noses, white people with freckles and Asian people with sallow skin...WHAT RIDICULOUS CLICHES THESE ARE.

philologos

dlofnep wrote: »

Would their race not be black? Or Jewish?

Black of Jewish ethnicity, aka Sephardic Jews who fled from the Spanish expulsion of the Jewish people and settled in Africa for the most part.

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

Easier question, since nobody wants to answer my Irish guy question.

Can I convert to being a Jew?

Can I convert to being a black person?

Can I convert to being an oriental person?

Which of the above can I not convert to?

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

"A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism. It's important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions and being Jewish is like a citizenship"


A Jew is defined as either a person who has gone through the process of conversion or any person whose mother was a Jew. I can not convert to being a black person but I can get a Nigerian passport

Zillah

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

That would depend on why said kid wants to join said religion. I think his reasons may go deeper. And many kids in Ireland belong to a religious organisation (rightly or wrongly).

Going around in circles here. Sex is far more life-changing than religion for resons outlined. Shouldn't have used the word potential.

So is it okay to convert to Judiasm if your a girl, then?

Seriously dude, what's your point here even about any more? You just seem to be vaguely contrary with me for some reason.

dlofnep

Zillah wrote: »

Ok, first of all that picture is not accessible, get better internet skills, and second of all I never claimed I could pick out an Irish person from a crowd so this whole post is an exemplar in failure.

It was working, not sure why it isn't now. Nothing to do with my "internet skills". I hold a degree in an IT related field.

The point is that, if you can pick out an Irish person out of a crowd - What's the difference that you may be able to pick out a Jewish person out of a crowd. The claim was that Jewish is a race, and on the premise - my argument is that - then so must Irish be, given that we have our own minor traits.

Now answer my question.

Can I convert to being a Jew, and can I convert to being a black person?

dlofnep

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I can not convert to being a black person but I can get a Nigerian passport

Terrible argument. The debate is that being Jewish is a race, not a NATIONALITY.

Stating that you can get a Nigerian passport does not mean you can convert to being the RACE of a black person. But you CAN convert to being a Jewish person. And thus, being Jewish does not dictate your race. The fact that there are both black & white jews re-affirms this.

Game over.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

No, I can't tell if someone is Jewish. They fit the Jewish cliché - but not all Jewish people have the glasses stereotype and big nose. You are conveniently picking out people who fit a cliché.

Now pick out which in my picture is Irish.

It's hard to tell but if I had to guess I'd say the top guy is Irish because his sink is more pink and his hair is fairer.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's hard to tell but if I had to guess I'd say the top guy is Irish because his sink is more pink and his hair is fairer.

But is being Irish a race?

philologos

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Are you dodging the issue? Or has religion gotten a hell of a lot more interesting in the last few years?

It's about control. And faith. Not emotions.

I think you're being rather unfair with this definition of religion. It is quite possible to believe without being controlled by anyone. I do think emotions play a role in religion, however emotions play a role in every decision we make whether we like it or not. We are emotive beings.

dlofnep: The point is that Jewish people excluding converts have a common ethnicity, they share genes. This is verified scientifically.

Zillah

dlofnep wrote: »

It was working, not sure why it isn't now. Nothing to do with my "internet skills". I hold a degree in an IT related field.

I edited that to be more polite when I realised other people could see it, not loading for me for some reason.

The point is that, if you can pick out an Irish person out of a crowd - What's the difference that you may be able to pick out a Jewish person out of a crowd. The claim was that Jewish is a race, and on the premise - my argument is that - then so must Irish be, given that we have our own minor traits.

Yes there is an argument for there being an Irish race. It may be a useful term in a certain context. As I've been arguing all along, 'race' is a fairly arbitrary grouping of traits.

Now answer my question.

Can I convert to being a Jew, and can I convert to being a black person?

You may convert to being a Jew, which means you may become a member of their religion and they will consider you a part of the Jewish people. However, you would not be a part of the genetic grouping of Semitic descent. After many generations, assuming the children of such converts remain part of that community and breed with other Jews what exactly we define as the Jewish race may change slightly.

No you may not convert to being black however much you like hip hop. You could have a child with a black person and your offspring would be considered Black by many because, as I've already stated, this whole race thing is very loosely defined.

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

Terrible argument. The debate is that being Jewish is a race, not a NATIONALITY.

Stating that you can get a Nigerian passport does not mean you can convert to being the RACE of a black person. But you CAN convert to being a Jewish person. And thus, being Jewish does not dictate your race. The fact that there are both black & white jews re-affirms this.

Game over.

Judaism is a religion AND a race. A person who is not born a Jew can take the label because the word has dual use, describing either a person who has gone through the process of conversion or any person whose mother was a Jew. A person who is born a Jew is always a Jew, regardless of his religious beliefs or lack thereof. He can leave the faith but he can't change his genes

dlofnep

No it's not. It's a religion.

Zillah

We're being trolled, right? I honestly don't mean this as an ad hominem attack, at this point I think it is very reasonable to concede that dlofnep is having a laugh at our expense.

dlofnep

Zillah - Is Irish a race? Yes or no?

Sam Vimes

Zillah wrote: »

We're being trolled, right? I honestly don't mean this as an ad hominem attack, at this point I think it is very reasonable to concede that dlofnep is having a laugh at our expense.

I'm starting to think so tbh. I go to a website called jewfaq.org and get a quote from Judaism 101 and dlofnep says "don't mind the Jewish website. I know better than them what a Jew is"

dlofnep

You still haven't answered my question.

By your definitions - there would be 100's of different races. If you want to loosely categorise race, then fine - but Irish people would be their own race based on the same logic.

Zillah

dlofnep wrote: »

Zillah - Is Irish a race? Yes or no?

Demanding a Yes or No answer to a question does not make the issue a Yes or No prospect.

Like I've already explained several times, the notion of a race is a rather subjective group of inherited traits. The usefulness of the word "race" depends on context. If we were discussing the results of the Irish famine in terms of people of Irish descent leaving the country and going other places, then the concept of an Irish race is very useful. When describing yourself on a police report it's probably more useful to simply describe yourself as Caucasian.

You can stomp your feet like a petulant five year old all you like but you won't fit arbitrary genetic groupings into rigid boxes.

dlofnep

So being Jewish is only a race in certain situations? Is that your logic?

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

You still haven't answered my question.

By your definitions - there would be 100's of different races. If you want to loosely categorise race, then fine - but Irish people would be their own race based on the same logic.

Yes they probably would. I am using the term loosely to indicate that the Jewish people, aside from converts, share genetic traits because they have mostly bred among themselves for thousands of years. I don't know the exact line that's drawn to discern variations in the same race and different races or if such lines even exist. Is it when they have 1 gene that others don't have? 2? 154? 347? If you don't want to call this group of people who are genetically distinct from others a race then I'm not going to force you to, I was just pointing out that the word Jew is not only used to describe someone who practices the faith but is also used to describe someone whose mother is a Jew, regardless of religious beliefs. Storm in a teacup tbh

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Zillah wrote: »

Seriously dude, what's your point here even about any more? You just seem to be vaguely contrary with me for some reason.

Can a 13 year old have enough information and sense to convert to or practice a religion alternate to that of his parents. It's in the title of the thread remember? I say yes, but that doesn't mean he should.

Zillah

dlofnep wrote: »

So being Jewish is only a race in certain situations? Is that your logic?

Almost. Anyone being a member of any race is dependent upon the context.

Zillah

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Can a 13 year old have enough information and sense to convert to or practice a religion alternate to that of his parents. It's in the title of the thread remember? I say yes, but that doesn't mean he should.

Ok. I'm saying joining a religion is never sensible and I will stop my children from doing it for as long as I can. I would never approve or support it, but there is a point at which they will not longer obey the dictates of their parents.

Flamed Diving

Zillah wrote: »

Almost. Anyone being a member of any race is dependent upon the hazy definition.

FYP.

Zillah

Rich tapestry, rich tapestry.

Turtwig

Surely this thread should be renamed to this:

What is it exactly that defines a race of human of beings?

With regard to the Jewish side of this question I provide the following.
Note: I did not bother my arse in reading any of that because it should be pretty darn obvious that we are only arguing over an arbitrary definition?
So, folks how do we classify sliotars??

On topic,

Happily, I'm along way away from that bridge yet but I'll cross it when I come to it :)Yeah, I know you want an opinion Jakkass. Well modh coinniolamalty says the following:

If I had a child who decided he wanted to be religious then I would be rightly pissed that someone had him/her brainwashed. I would do whatever I could to 'cleanse' his/her mind. This would include the following.

• A high protein diet.
• Low Fat
• High in Fibre.
• Breakfast everday @5.
• Morning Prayer @6.
• Barefooted Walk @7.
• Off to School - In adorned religious jewelery,and shaved traditional haircut. @8.
• Disagreeing with anything learnt in school at 3.30
• Flat Earth Worship at 4.30.
• Young Earth Idealogy at 5.30.
• Intelligent Design at 6.30.
• Evening Prayer@ 7.30
• Bible Recitation @ 8.00.
• Bedtime 9.00
  Sneakily Leave a Copy of Barbara Kingsolver's Poisonwood Bible under the pillow along with a flashlight.
  
  The following would also apply
• No Reading of unreligious texts.
• Michael Bay's Armageddon Banned!
• All Michael Bay Films Banned.
• Anything to do with Aliens Not allowed.
• Anything that show's curvature of Earth banned.
• Anything that show's hollow earth banned.
• Demonic Robotic toys such a Pleo or Optimus Prime banned.
• Only allowed to play the videogame Pro-Evolution Soccer.
• Only allowed to access evolutionary web pages, but will get in trouble in the process - Appeal to the rebellious teen!! Will still be allowed to sneak access though via wireless laptop, but will only be able to view info on how crackpotted his/her dad views and will see constant links to the God Delusion.
• Must wear a ring, that not only symbolises vows to celibacy but also frigidity!

That's be my approach for a teen. It's not complete by any means, I spend a few days ironing out the chinks in it and making the weekend a living hell.
Reverse Psychology allow works

Flamed Diving

Zillah wrote: »

Rich tapestry, rich tapestry.

I like the wonky ears race best, myself.

Sam Vimes

• All Michael Bay Films Banned.

Pretty sensible tbh