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I'm a non-believing Jew, but my son wants a barmitzvah.

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    #32
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Theres more to being Jewish than religion. I mean there has to be otherwise there would be no legitimacy in giving Israel as a Jewish (religious) state. In practice Israel isn't a religious state, but rather culturally Jewish.


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    #33
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Theres more to being Jewish than religion. I mean there has to be otherwise there would be no legitimacy in giving Israel as a Jewish (religious) state. In practice Israel isn't a religious state, but rather culturally Jewish.

    There isn't a doubt that Jews are a separate culture, they're just not a separate race.


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    #34
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Theres more to being Jewish than religion. I mean there has to be otherwise there would be no legitimacy in giving Israel as a Jewish (religious) state. In practice Israel isn't a religious state, but rather culturally Jewish.

    Exactly. Many associate with being Jewish as a cultural trait, not a race. It's not a race. Nor is it even a culture. It's a religious faith. Many choose to use it as a means for creating context in their culture - like catholics and protestants in the north might associate with being Irish or British, depending on their religion (but not all).


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    #35
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Zillah wrote: »
    No, I'm forbidding my children from joining any cults.

    Once they're grown up they can ignore my wishes but until then, no, no hard drugs, no stealing, no partying on weeknights, no cults, no murder, no rape.

    What he said.


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    #36
    mega man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭mega man


    has the child been yet circumsized?


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    #37
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Exactly. Many associate with being Jewish as a cultural trait, not a race. It's not a race. Nor is it even a culture. It's a religious faith. Many choose to use it as a means for creating context in their culture - like catholics and protestants in the north might associate with being Irish or British, depending on their religion (but not all).

    Jews are an ethnic group, a part of the Semitic peoples. Genetics tells us this much. They share genetic resemblance with Palestinians and Arabs.


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    #38
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Jews are an ethnic group, a part of the Semitic peoples. Genetics tells us this much.

    For the sake of argument. I'm going to be a Jew for the next 5 minutes. I'm not a part of the Semitic people.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    They share genetic resemblance with Palestinians and Arabs.

    Being of a religious faith does not dictate your genetics. If it just so happens to be that a large portion of people in a specific area have a similar faith - that has nothing to do with their race.

    You're 100% wrong about this. If you want to make the case for Israelis being a race, then you can - although, I'll disagree with it too on the basis that they are no more an individual race than Irish people are. But to make a claim that Jewish people are a race is 100% inaccurate, and every single


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    #39
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,241 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Overblood wrote: »

    Anyway, this is the exact same as the confirmation thing.

    I wouldn't let my child join a religious cult. If he/she decides to join one when they're 18, that's fine. But I don't think I'd be supportive.

    True, but you missed the point: some kids can actually hold a debate and form an opinion on their own at 13! Shocking, eh?! Edukashun worx!

    Banning them from a religion they wish to be a part of and forcing them into one blindly are the same thing.
    Mhope wrote: »
    It seems to me that if you rear a child in a particular tradition and if he is educated with others of the same religion then surely it would be expected that he would wish to follow through in all aspects of that religion!

    Nooo.... That's robots you're thinking of, not humans.
    mega man wrote: »
    has the child been yet circumsized?

    Who cares? Lots of people - non-Jewish people included - get cricumcized for reasons that are nothing to do with religion. It's quiet popular to have male children circumsized in the US.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #40
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    dfolnep: Jews aren't just a religious group. They are an ethnic group also. Biologically they are shown to share genes with eachother. Infact in Europe Ashkenazi Jews only interbred with Gentiles at a rate of 0.5% per generation. Science has shown that Jews are an ethnicity and a part of the Semitic genetic group.

    Judaism is an ancestral religion, unlike Christianity which is a proselytising religion.

    Anyhow, I'd like to continue discussing the actual OP apart from what makes Jews Jewish :)


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    #41
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Jakkass wrote: »
    dfolnep: Jews aren't just a religious group. They are an ethnic group also. Biologically they are shown to share genes with eachother. Infact in Europe Ashkenazi Jews only interbred with Gentiles at a rate of 0.5% per generation. Science has shown that Jews are an ethnicity and a part of the Semitic genetic group.

    Judaism is an ancestral religion, unlike Christianity which is a proselytising religion.

    Anyhow, I'd like to continue discussing the actual OP apart from what makes Jews Jewish :)

    So nice, to see a religious person using science to back their argument, for once.


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    #42
    mega man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭mega man


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    True, but you missed the point: some kids can actually hold a debate and form an opinion on their own at 13! Shocking, eh?! Edukashun worx!

    Banning them from a religion they wish to be a part of and forcing them into one blindly are the same thing.



    Nooo.... That's robots you're thinking of, not humans.



    Who cares? Lots of people - non-Jewish people included - get cricumcized for reasons that are nothing to do with religion. It's quiet popular to have male children circumsized in the US.

    its just that i know this guy who will do it real cheap


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    #43
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Jakkass - how do you account for Ethiopian Jews? Are they somehow genetically linked with Middle-Eastern/North American Jews in a way that white/semitic gentiles are not?


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    #44
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    pickarooney: Tribes in Africa have also been shown to be of ethnic Jewish descent. There was the case of the Lembaa which were rejected in being considered by Rabbinical Judaism as Jews for years, and they were found to be of the same line of Semitic descent as they were. Jews with Semitic origins exist all over the world including Africa and Asia. They obviously differ slightly genetics wise but they are all from the same stem.


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    #45
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Isn't that denying people a free choice of conscience, very much akin to what you accuse Christian parents of doing? :pac:

    Children are too stupid to exercise a "free choice of conscience", that's why they're called children, that's why their consent for sex is not considered consent. I accuse Christian parents of indoctrinating their children into a religion, which is exactly the opposite of what I'm doing.
    I find it funny the way you would be okay with your child smoking cannabis, but not okay with your child having their own beliefs.

    They can have all the beliefs they want. I'm forbidding them from joining any religious organisations, nothing more.


    As for this whole Judaism being a race or a religion thing, it's both. You can usually look at a Jewish person and recognise them as a Jew just by how they look, and I don't mean their clothes. The concept of race is very much a wishy washy social construct anyway, but yes, Jewishness is considered to be inherited through the mother and there are traits that are common amongst Jews. I very much doubt that the modern Jewish people look very much like the Jews of the Old Testament but then that doesn't really matter does it?


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    #46
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    For the sake of argument. I'm going to be a Jew for the next 5 minutes. I'm not a part of the Semitic people.
    Jews only recognize you as Jewish if your mother was Jewish. So yeah, onless your Mother is Jewish for those five minutes then you aren't racially Jewish.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Being of a religious faith does not dictate your genetics. If it just so happens to be that a large portion of people in a specific area have a similar faith - that has nothing to do with their race.
    Nobody said religion and race are related but since Judaism is very negitive towards converts and outer marriage it means there is very little racial difference in the religion.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    You're 100% wrong about this. If you want to make the case for Israelis being a race, then you can - although, I'll disagree with it too on the basis that they are no more an individual race than Irish people are. But to make a claim that Jewish people are a race is 100% inaccurate, and every single
    They share genetics and racial traits, how would you define race ?


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    #47
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    So nice, to see a religious person using science to back their argument, for once.
    Christians use science to back up their views alot, such as the origin of the Bible for example.


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    #48
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Christians use science to back up their views alot, such as the origin of the Bible for example.

    Non-nonsensical arguments, then.


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    #49
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Non-nonsensical arguments, then.
    ?
    Care to explain what you mean by that ?


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    #50
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    ?
    Care to explain what you mean by that ?

    Any means they use to discover the origins of the Bible will be biased in order to fit the already arrived at conclusion of the Bibles origin, based on scriptures.

    In otherwords:

    BADSCIENCE.gif


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    #51
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,241 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Zillah wrote: »
    Children are too stupid to exercise a "free choice of conscience", that's why they're called children, that's why their consent for sex is not considered consent. I accuse Christian parents of indoctrinating their children into a religion, which is exactly the opposite of what I'm doing.

    We're talking a thriteen year old here. If a thirteen year old is "too stupid to exercise a free choice of conscience" and can't understand a religion and discuss its merits (or lack thereof) then something is DRASTICALLY wrong with the way that child is being educated.
    They can have all the beliefs they want. I'm forbidding them from joining any religious organisations, nothing more.

    If they really want too, and have done the research, they will. Behind your back if nessecary. You won't have a say in the matter.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #52
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Jakkass wrote: »
    pickarooney: Tribes in Africa have also been shown to be of ethnic Jewish descent. There was the case of the Lembaa which were rejected in being considered by Rabbinical Judaism as Jews for years, and they were found to be of the same line of Semitic descent as they were. Jews with Semitic origins exist all over the world including Africa and Asia. They obviously differ slightly genetics wise but they are all from the same stem.

    That's really a case of looking hard enough for something and convincing yourself you've found it, IMO. The Beta Israel have little to nothing in common with the Sephardic/Ashkenazi from the middle east, genetically.

    And the Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam back in the day - their descendants would be racially Jewish and religiously Muslim/Christian?


    I guess this is quite a bit of topic though. More on-topic, if my kid could convince me that he didn't want a bar mitvah or confirmation just for the cash/presents, I'd be inclined to let him.


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    #53
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    We're talking a thriteen year old here. If a thirteen year old is "too stupid to exercise a free choice of conscience" and can't understand a religion and discuss its merits (or lack thereof) then something is DRASTICALLY wrong with the way that child is being educated.

    Come on, is your ignorance wilful, in this case? If a thirteen year old is deemed not emotionally developed enough to have sex, and not intellectually developed enough to vote, then how can the child choose a system of belief?

    What has that got to do with education? It's about natural development. Try thinking a bit more, before responding.


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    #54
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Jews only recognize you as Jewish if your mother was Jewish. So yeah, onless your Mother is Jewish for those five minutes then you aren't racially Jewish.

    Wrong.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    They share genetics and racial traits, how would you define race ?

    Could you tell the difference between a Jewish person and a normal white person? Because I can't. I know a jewish girl, she could walk down the streets of Ireland, and you wouldn't know the difference.

    All people have slight traits - Irish and Scottish for example are slightly different than Spanish and Portuguese. But does that mean that by being Irish, you are of Irish race?

    If you wanted to break down the slight differences between all the people in the world - you'd probably have 200 different races.


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    #55
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Any means they use to discover the origins of the Bible will be biased in order to fit the already arrived at conclusion of the Bibles origin, based on scriptures.
    Can you give any evidence to support the claim that research presumably done by Scientists of numerous backgrounds and faiths is inherently biased ?

    P.S this isn't 4chan, less of the pictures.


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    #56
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    We're talking a thriteen year old here. If a thirteen year old is "too stupid to exercise a free choice of conscience" and can't understand a religion and discuss its merits (or lack thereof) then something is DRASTICALLY wrong with the way that child is being educated.

    They are perfectly capable of discussing these things yes, which I will do, gladly. I am simply going to forbid them joining any organisations. Especially ones that require them to cut off pieces of their genitals.

    And as Dades has said, for a child in a non-religious family to turn around and declare their interest in a new faith, you have to be extremely suspicious as to who they've been talking to.
    If they really want too, and have done the research, they will. Behind your back if nessecary. You won't have a say in the matter.

    What kind of ridiculous argument is this? If my child really wants to go and shoot up heroin I can't really stop them short of locking them in the house. What's your point?


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    #57
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    P.S this isn't 4chan, less of the pictures.

    2264877042_3dd9092df8.jpg


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    #58
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Wrong.
    Correct, prehaps we should ask a Rabbi ?
    Judaism.about.com wrote:
    Answer
    Jewish identity is passed on via the mother. If the mother is Jewish, the child is 100% Jewish. This is true regardless of who the father is, and whether he is Jewish or not, and regardless of whether the Jewish mother practiced another religion. That is the unwavering rule. At the same time, if someone's father is Jewish (but not the mother), then the child is 100% NOT Jewish.


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Could you tell the difference between a Jewish person and a normal white person? Because I can't. I know a jewish girl, she could walk down the streets of Ireland, and you wouldn't know the difference.

    All people have slight traits - Irish and Scottish for example are slightly different than Spanish and Portuguese. But does that mean that by being Irish, you are of Irish race?

    If you wanted to break down the slight differences between all the people in the world - you'd probably have 200 different races.
    That's funny, I believe I asked you how would you define race ?


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    #59
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Wrong.

    Right.


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    #60
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Can you give any evidence to support the claim that research presumably done by Scientists of numerous backgrounds and faiths is inherently biased ?

    P.S this isn't 4chan, less of the pictures.

    That wasn't my claim, and since the picture function is there, I will use it as I please.


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    #61
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    That wasn't my claim, and since the picture function is there, I will use it as I please.
    Then what was your claim ?


    P.S You may use your picture function as you please but I may allso use my ignore function.


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