I'm a non-believing Jew, but my son wants a barmitzvah.

philologos

I was flicking through the religion section of the Guardian, and I came across this article. It raised the question for me, if your child accepted faith, or wanted to learn about a religious tradition would you be supportive of them in doing so?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/aug/01/non-believing-jew-barmitzvah

Ickle Magoo

Absolutely...but I'd want them to wait until adulthood to officially subscribe to the religion of their choosing or partake in any genital alterations but I'd certainly actively encourage them on whatever spiritual journey they choose to make.

Dades

I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't have problems with it, tbh.

Firstly, childhood is for imagination and fun and zero responsibility.
Secondly a child cannot make a reasoned decision about a "belief" so any interest or conversion is essentially a farce and clearly prompted by some adult taking advantage of a vulnerable mind.

drkpower

Dades wrote: »

I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't have problems with it, tbh.

Im presuming you would allow hom to do it of he really wanted to and had tought it through etc.?

ChocolateSauce

If my young child wanted to know more, it'd be what Dades said. If my grown up child came to me, they'd be old enough to be on the receiving end of my opinions of religion.

Long story short, it wouldn't stop me loving the child, but it would disappoint me and make me respect him or her less. I wouldn't offer my support.

Zillah

No, I'm forbidding my children from joining any cults.

Once they're grown up they can ignore my wishes but until then, no, no hard drugs, no stealing, no partying on weeknights, no cults, no murder, no rape.

Gregor Samsa

I wouldn't let my young child join a religion, no more than I'd let them join The McCarthy Dundon gang or Fianna Fáil*. If my adult child wanted to join any of those, that would be their choice as an individual, but they'd have a hard time justifying it to me. I wouldn't love them any less, but I certainly wouldn't support it.

*that list is my no means exclusive

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dades wrote: »

I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't have problems with it, tbh.

Firstly, childhood is for imagination and fun and zero responsibility.
Secondly a child cannot make a reasoned decision about a "belief" so any interest or conversion is essentially a farce and clearly prompted by some adult taking advantage of a vulnerable mind.

Of yes they can... I know a 13 year old who didn't make his confirmation because he felt pretty sure he didn't want to commit to a church he didn't agree with.

Anyway, in aswer to the question; I'd be open to it; but how I'd feel would depend on his approach: why does he want a Barmitzfah? How much does he know about the history and traditions fo the Jewish faith?

I think that preventing a child from joinign a religion when if they've done the research is just as damaging as opposing them and claiming that it's because they're childish and ignorant.

Overblood

A non-believing Jew? What the feck does that mean?

phutyle wrote: »

If my adult child wanted to join any of those...

That sounds funny.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Of yes they can... I know a 13 year old who didn't make his confirmation because he felt pretty sure he didn't want to commit to a church he didn't agree with.

What.

Anyway, this is the exact same as the confirmation thing.

I wouldn't let my child join a religious cult. If he/she decides to join one when they're 18, that's fine. But I don't think I'd be supportive.

Hard to say though. I don't have a kid.

philologos

Zillah wrote: »

No, I'm forbidding my children from joining any cults.

Once they're grown up they can ignore my wishes but until then, no, no hard drugs, no stealing, no partying on weeknights, no cults, no murder, no rape.

Isn't that denying people a free choice of conscience, very much akin to what you accuse Christian parents of doing? :pac:

I find it funny the way you would be okay with your child smoking cannabis, but not okay with your child having their own beliefs.

Overblood: Secular Jews, I.E descended from Jewish parents, but those who reject Judaism. They make up a majority of Israel's Jews currently.

Dades

drkpower wrote: »

Im presuming you would allow hom to do it of he really wanted to and had tought it through etc.?

I guess so.

Though not without establishing a few things first. Namely:

(1) Who exactly had been pushing their agenda on my child;
(2) That the child was aware of my beliefs, and the wealth of other beliefs out there;
(3) Find out what was missing from the child's life that they feel they need to be a part of such an organisation.

Sam Vimes

Overblood wrote: »

A non-believing Jew? What the feck does that mean?

The jews are a race in themselves with their own history and culture etc. A non-believing jew is someone who was raised in the culture but doesn't believe

ChocolateSauce

I may be wrong, but aren't the Jews only a race because Judaism describes them as a race?

b12mearse

Jakkass wrote: »

I was flicking through the religion section of the Guardian, and I came across this article. It raised the question for me, if your child accepted faith, or wanted to learn about a religious tradition would you be supportive of them in doing so?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/aug/01/non-believing-jew-barmitzvah

has the child been yet circumsized?

philologos

The article seems to suggest that he went to a liberal synagogue (Reform Judaism) where this isn't required.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I may be wrong, but aren't the Jews only a race because Judaism describes them as a race?

The Y-chromosones of Ashkenazi Jews mark them as being genetically distinct to European Gentiles. Indeed they show similarities with other Jewish communities worldwide, Arabs, and other Semitic races.

dlofnep

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The jews are a race in themselves

No they are not. That is factually inaccurate. Demonstrate how Jewish people are a race. No more of a race than Catholics of Protestants.

Sam Vimes

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I may be wrong, but aren't the Jews only a race because Judaism describes them as a race?

Maybe but that would mean that whether we agree that they're a race or not, people who were raised Jews but don't believe would describe themselves as non-believing Jews :pac:

philologos

dfolnep: Read my friend
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/09/science/y-chromosome-bears-witness-to-story-of-the-jewish-diaspora.html

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

No they are not. That is factually inaccurate. Demonstrate how Jewish people are a race. No more of a race than Catholics of Protestants.

I don't mean it the way white people and black people are different races, I mean culturally. They consider themselves a race

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

dfolnep: Read my friend
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/09/science/y-chromosome-bears-witness-to-story-of-the-jewish-diaspora.html

That's nonsense.

Being Jewish means that you are of a religious faith, not a race. Every single country has it's own little distinct traits. Like red hair and so forth - it doesn't make them a race. The Irish are not a race.

dlofnep

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I don't mean it the way white people and black people are different races, I mean culturally. They consider themselves a race

Culturally we're Irish - Does that make us a race?

philologos

dlofnep: That's just how you define being Jewish. The reality is that Jews are an ethno-religious group. I.E The matriarchal line of descent is the main way that Jews identify as being Jewish. Religious observance is just a matter of how "frum" (religious) you are. Irrespective of how religious you are you remain Jewish.

Science has clearly shown us that genetically Jews differ to European populations. What other way would you explain this?

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

dlofnep: That's just how you define being Jewish. The reality is that Jews are an ethno-religious group. I.E The matriarchal line of descent is the main way that Jews identify as being Jewish. Religious observance is just a matter of how "frum" (religious) you are. Irrespective of how religious you are you remain Jewish.

Science has clearly shown us that genetically Jews differ to European populations. What other way would you explain this?

Irish people have genetic differences to spanish people. But being Irish isn't a race. It's a nationality. You're swallowing up their self identity. It's not a race. It's a religious faith. Because they have come from the same geographic location, and have promoted inter-religious marriage and shunned marrying outside of Judaism has led to them maintaining that. It doesn't constitute enough to make them a race, and if it does - then the Irish are a race.

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

Culturally we're Irish - Does that make us a race?

They consider themselves a race. I'm just trying to clarify what a non-believing Jew is. They mean it in the same way that I would say a non-Fianna Fail supporting Irish person. To them, believing in the Jewish God is not a requirement. The word has connotations beyond religion

dlofnep

Sam Vimes wrote: »

They consider themselves a race. I'm just trying to clarify what a non-believing Jew is. They mean it in the same way that I would say a non-Fianna Fail supporting Irish person. To them, believing in the Jewish God is not a requirement. The word has connotations beyond religion

Oh don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying - I am just saying that they are not a race. They have a cultural identity - but it's not the same thing.

For example - Is it possible for me to become Jewish? If I move off to Israel with the lads, does that mean that I'm now apart of their race?

Mhope

It seems to me that if you rear a child in a particular tradition and if he is educated with others of the same religion then surely it would be expected that he would wish to follow through in all aspects of that religion!

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying - I am just saying that they are not a race. They have a cultural identity - but it's not the same thing.

For example - Is it possible for me to become Jewish? If I move off to Israel with the lads, does that mean that I'm now apart of their race?

You can become a member of the Jewish faith but it doesn't make you part of their race any more than getting an Irish passport gives you the obligatory aunty Mary and a liking for potatoes. Race is the word they use so if you have issue with it I can get you the number of the prime minister of Israel :P

Mhope

In the same way as a Jew may convert to the Christian faith but nevertheless remain a member of the Jewish race!

dlofnep

Mhope wrote: »

In the same way as a Jew may convert to the Christian faith but nevertheless remain a member of the Jewish race!

It's not a race.

*sigh*

Mark Hamill

Jakkass wrote: »

Isn't that denying people a free choice of conscience

Yes, but when an adult does it with their kids its called parenting.

In response to your OP, I would approach it like politics; If my kid wanted to learn about politics, the different viewpoints of each party etc then sure I would completely encourage it. If they wanted to vote, declare their undying support for a particular party, then nope, not a hope would I support them. You couldn't trust a kid to eat healthily, how could you trust a kid to vote or choose a religion unemotively.

ChocolateSauce

Jakkass wrote: »

The Y-chromosones of Ashkenazi Jews mark them as being genetically distinct to European Gentiles. Indeed they show similarities with other Jewish communities worldwide, Arabs, and other Semitic races.

Hmm.......I've never been happy about considering them a race, because it blurs the lines between religion and race. You can't be racist against Christians or Muslims, but you can against Jews.

dlofnep wrote:

Irish people have genetic differences to spanish people. But being Irish isn't a race. It's a nationality. You're swallowing up their self identity. It's not a race. It's a religious faith. Because they have come from the same geographic location, and have promoted inter-religious marriage and shunned marrying outside of Judaism has led to them maintaining that. It doesn't constitute enough to make them a race, and if it does - then the Irish are a race.

I would believe this I think....but if evidence emerges that there is enough genetic difference to consider them a race I'd have to concede this.

Jakkass, I don't think that is enough difference to call them a separate race. Furthermore, I'd be very sceptical about claims the NY Times makes about Jews.