I'm a non-believing Jew, but my son wants a barmitzvah.

philologos

I was flicking through the religion section of the Guardian, and I came across this article. It raised the question for me, if your child accepted faith, or wanted to learn about a religious tradition would you be supportive of them in doing so?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/aug/01/non-believing-jew-barmitzvah

Ickle Magoo

Absolutely...but I'd want them to wait until adulthood to officially subscribe to the religion of their choosing or partake in any genital alterations but I'd certainly actively encourage them on whatever spiritual journey they choose to make.

Dades

I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't have problems with it, tbh.

Firstly, childhood is for imagination and fun and zero responsibility.
Secondly a child cannot make a reasoned decision about a "belief" so any interest or conversion is essentially a farce and clearly prompted by some adult taking advantage of a vulnerable mind.

drkpower

Dades wrote: »

I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't have problems with it, tbh.

Im presuming you would allow hom to do it of he really wanted to and had tought it through etc.?

ChocolateSauce

If my young child wanted to know more, it'd be what Dades said. If my grown up child came to me, they'd be old enough to be on the receiving end of my opinions of religion.

Long story short, it wouldn't stop me loving the child, but it would disappoint me and make me respect him or her less. I wouldn't offer my support.

Zillah

No, I'm forbidding my children from joining any cults.

Once they're grown up they can ignore my wishes but until then, no, no hard drugs, no stealing, no partying on weeknights, no cults, no murder, no rape.

Gregor Samsa

I wouldn't let my young child join a religion, no more than I'd let them join The McCarthy Dundon gang or Fianna Fáil*. If my adult child wanted to join any of those, that would be their choice as an individual, but they'd have a hard time justifying it to me. I wouldn't love them any less, but I certainly wouldn't support it.

*that list is my no means exclusive

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dades wrote: »

I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't have problems with it, tbh.

Firstly, childhood is for imagination and fun and zero responsibility.
Secondly a child cannot make a reasoned decision about a "belief" so any interest or conversion is essentially a farce and clearly prompted by some adult taking advantage of a vulnerable mind.

Of yes they can... I know a 13 year old who didn't make his confirmation because he felt pretty sure he didn't want to commit to a church he didn't agree with.

Anyway, in aswer to the question; I'd be open to it; but how I'd feel would depend on his approach: why does he want a Barmitzfah? How much does he know about the history and traditions fo the Jewish faith?

I think that preventing a child from joinign a religion when if they've done the research is just as damaging as opposing them and claiming that it's because they're childish and ignorant.

Overblood

A non-believing Jew? What the feck does that mean?

phutyle wrote: »

If my adult child wanted to join any of those...

That sounds funny.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Of yes they can... I know a 13 year old who didn't make his confirmation because he felt pretty sure he didn't want to commit to a church he didn't agree with.

What.

Anyway, this is the exact same as the confirmation thing.

I wouldn't let my child join a religious cult. If he/she decides to join one when they're 18, that's fine. But I don't think I'd be supportive.

Hard to say though. I don't have a kid.

philologos

Zillah wrote: »

No, I'm forbidding my children from joining any cults.

Once they're grown up they can ignore my wishes but until then, no, no hard drugs, no stealing, no partying on weeknights, no cults, no murder, no rape.

Isn't that denying people a free choice of conscience, very much akin to what you accuse Christian parents of doing? :pac:

I find it funny the way you would be okay with your child smoking cannabis, but not okay with your child having their own beliefs.

Overblood: Secular Jews, I.E descended from Jewish parents, but those who reject Judaism. They make up a majority of Israel's Jews currently.

Dades

drkpower wrote: »

Im presuming you would allow hom to do it of he really wanted to and had tought it through etc.?

I guess so.

Though not without establishing a few things first. Namely:

(1) Who exactly had been pushing their agenda on my child;
(2) That the child was aware of my beliefs, and the wealth of other beliefs out there;
(3) Find out what was missing from the child's life that they feel they need to be a part of such an organisation.

Sam Vimes

Overblood wrote: »

A non-believing Jew? What the feck does that mean?

The jews are a race in themselves with their own history and culture etc. A non-believing jew is someone who was raised in the culture but doesn't believe

ChocolateSauce

I may be wrong, but aren't the Jews only a race because Judaism describes them as a race?

b12mearse

Jakkass wrote: »

I was flicking through the religion section of the Guardian, and I came across this article. It raised the question for me, if your child accepted faith, or wanted to learn about a religious tradition would you be supportive of them in doing so?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/aug/01/non-believing-jew-barmitzvah

has the child been yet circumsized?

philologos

The article seems to suggest that he went to a liberal synagogue (Reform Judaism) where this isn't required.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I may be wrong, but aren't the Jews only a race because Judaism describes them as a race?

The Y-chromosones of Ashkenazi Jews mark them as being genetically distinct to European Gentiles. Indeed they show similarities with other Jewish communities worldwide, Arabs, and other Semitic races.

dlofnep

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The jews are a race in themselves

No they are not. That is factually inaccurate. Demonstrate how Jewish people are a race. No more of a race than Catholics of Protestants.

Sam Vimes

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I may be wrong, but aren't the Jews only a race because Judaism describes them as a race?

Maybe but that would mean that whether we agree that they're a race or not, people who were raised Jews but don't believe would describe themselves as non-believing Jews :pac:

philologos

dfolnep: Read my friend
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/09/science/y-chromosome-bears-witness-to-story-of-the-jewish-diaspora.html

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

No they are not. That is factually inaccurate. Demonstrate how Jewish people are a race. No more of a race than Catholics of Protestants.

I don't mean it the way white people and black people are different races, I mean culturally. They consider themselves a race

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

dfolnep: Read my friend
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/09/science/y-chromosome-bears-witness-to-story-of-the-jewish-diaspora.html

That's nonsense.

Being Jewish means that you are of a religious faith, not a race. Every single country has it's own little distinct traits. Like red hair and so forth - it doesn't make them a race. The Irish are not a race.

dlofnep

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I don't mean it the way white people and black people are different races, I mean culturally. They consider themselves a race

Culturally we're Irish - Does that make us a race?

philologos

dlofnep: That's just how you define being Jewish. The reality is that Jews are an ethno-religious group. I.E The matriarchal line of descent is the main way that Jews identify as being Jewish. Religious observance is just a matter of how "frum" (religious) you are. Irrespective of how religious you are you remain Jewish.

Science has clearly shown us that genetically Jews differ to European populations. What other way would you explain this?

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

dlofnep: That's just how you define being Jewish. The reality is that Jews are an ethno-religious group. I.E The matriarchal line of descent is the main way that Jews identify as being Jewish. Religious observance is just a matter of how "frum" (religious) you are. Irrespective of how religious you are you remain Jewish.

Science has clearly shown us that genetically Jews differ to European populations. What other way would you explain this?

Irish people have genetic differences to spanish people. But being Irish isn't a race. It's a nationality. You're swallowing up their self identity. It's not a race. It's a religious faith. Because they have come from the same geographic location, and have promoted inter-religious marriage and shunned marrying outside of Judaism has led to them maintaining that. It doesn't constitute enough to make them a race, and if it does - then the Irish are a race.

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

Culturally we're Irish - Does that make us a race?

They consider themselves a race. I'm just trying to clarify what a non-believing Jew is. They mean it in the same way that I would say a non-Fianna Fail supporting Irish person. To them, believing in the Jewish God is not a requirement. The word has connotations beyond religion

dlofnep

Sam Vimes wrote: »

They consider themselves a race. I'm just trying to clarify what a non-believing Jew is. They mean it in the same way that I would say a non-Fianna Fail supporting Irish person. To them, believing in the Jewish God is not a requirement. The word has connotations beyond religion

Oh don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying - I am just saying that they are not a race. They have a cultural identity - but it's not the same thing.

For example - Is it possible for me to become Jewish? If I move off to Israel with the lads, does that mean that I'm now apart of their race?

Mhope

It seems to me that if you rear a child in a particular tradition and if he is educated with others of the same religion then surely it would be expected that he would wish to follow through in all aspects of that religion!

Sam Vimes

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying - I am just saying that they are not a race. They have a cultural identity - but it's not the same thing.

For example - Is it possible for me to become Jewish? If I move off to Israel with the lads, does that mean that I'm now apart of their race?

You can become a member of the Jewish faith but it doesn't make you part of their race any more than getting an Irish passport gives you the obligatory aunty Mary and a liking for potatoes. Race is the word they use so if you have issue with it I can get you the number of the prime minister of Israel :P

Mhope

In the same way as a Jew may convert to the Christian faith but nevertheless remain a member of the Jewish race!

dlofnep

Mhope wrote: »

In the same way as a Jew may convert to the Christian faith but nevertheless remain a member of the Jewish race!

It's not a race.

*sigh*

Mark Hamill

Jakkass wrote: »

Isn't that denying people a free choice of conscience

Yes, but when an adult does it with their kids its called parenting.

In response to your OP, I would approach it like politics; If my kid wanted to learn about politics, the different viewpoints of each party etc then sure I would completely encourage it. If they wanted to vote, declare their undying support for a particular party, then nope, not a hope would I support them. You couldn't trust a kid to eat healthily, how could you trust a kid to vote or choose a religion unemotively.

ChocolateSauce

Jakkass wrote: »

The Y-chromosones of Ashkenazi Jews mark them as being genetically distinct to European Gentiles. Indeed they show similarities with other Jewish communities worldwide, Arabs, and other Semitic races.

Hmm.......I've never been happy about considering them a race, because it blurs the lines between religion and race. You can't be racist against Christians or Muslims, but you can against Jews.

dlofnep wrote:

Irish people have genetic differences to spanish people. But being Irish isn't a race. It's a nationality. You're swallowing up their self identity. It's not a race. It's a religious faith. Because they have come from the same geographic location, and have promoted inter-religious marriage and shunned marrying outside of Judaism has led to them maintaining that. It doesn't constitute enough to make them a race, and if it does - then the Irish are a race.

I would believe this I think....but if evidence emerges that there is enough genetic difference to consider them a race I'd have to concede this.

Jakkass, I don't think that is enough difference to call them a separate race. Furthermore, I'd be very sceptical about claims the NY Times makes about Jews.

philologos

Theres more to being Jewish than religion. I mean there has to be otherwise there would be no legitimacy in giving Israel as a Jewish (religious) state. In practice Israel isn't a religious state, but rather culturally Jewish.

ChocolateSauce

Jakkass wrote: »

Theres more to being Jewish than religion. I mean there has to be otherwise there would be no legitimacy in giving Israel as a Jewish (religious) state. In practice Israel isn't a religious state, but rather culturally Jewish.

There isn't a doubt that Jews are a separate culture, they're just not a separate race.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

Theres more to being Jewish than religion. I mean there has to be otherwise there would be no legitimacy in giving Israel as a Jewish (religious) state. In practice Israel isn't a religious state, but rather culturally Jewish.

Exactly. Many associate with being Jewish as a cultural trait, not a race. It's not a race. Nor is it even a culture. It's a religious faith. Many choose to use it as a means for creating context in their culture - like catholics and protestants in the north might associate with being Irish or British, depending on their religion (but not all).

Flamed Diving

Zillah wrote: »

No, I'm forbidding my children from joining any cults.

Once they're grown up they can ignore my wishes but until then, no, no hard drugs, no stealing, no partying on weeknights, no cults, no murder, no rape.

What he said.

mega man

has the child been yet circumsized?

philologos

dlofnep wrote: »

Exactly. Many associate with being Jewish as a cultural trait, not a race. It's not a race. Nor is it even a culture. It's a religious faith. Many choose to use it as a means for creating context in their culture - like catholics and protestants in the north might associate with being Irish or British, depending on their religion (but not all).

Jews are an ethnic group, a part of the Semitic peoples. Genetics tells us this much. They share genetic resemblance with Palestinians and Arabs.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

Jews are an ethnic group, a part of the Semitic peoples. Genetics tells us this much.

For the sake of argument. I'm going to be a Jew for the next 5 minutes. I'm not a part of the Semitic people.

Jakkass wrote: »

They share genetic resemblance with Palestinians and Arabs.

Being of a religious faith does not dictate your genetics. If it just so happens to be that a large portion of people in a specific area have a similar faith - that has nothing to do with their race.

You're 100% wrong about this. If you want to make the case for Israelis being a race, then you can - although, I'll disagree with it too on the basis that they are no more an individual race than Irish people are. But to make a claim that Jewish people are a race is 100% inaccurate, and every single

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Overblood wrote: »

Anyway, this is the exact same as the confirmation thing.

I wouldn't let my child join a religious cult. If he/she decides to join one when they're 18, that's fine. But I don't think I'd be supportive.

True, but you missed the point: some kids can actually hold a debate and form an opinion on their own at 13! Shocking, eh?! Edukashun worx!

Banning them from a religion they wish to be a part of and forcing them into one blindly are the same thing.

Mhope wrote: »

It seems to me that if you rear a child in a particular tradition and if he is educated with others of the same religion then surely it would be expected that he would wish to follow through in all aspects of that religion!

Nooo.... That's robots you're thinking of, not humans.

mega man wrote: »

has the child been yet circumsized?

Who cares? Lots of people - non-Jewish people included - get cricumcized for reasons that are nothing to do with religion. It's quiet popular to have male children circumsized in the US.

philologos

dfolnep: Jews aren't just a religious group. They are an ethnic group also. Biologically they are shown to share genes with eachother. Infact in Europe Ashkenazi Jews only interbred with Gentiles at a rate of 0.5% per generation. Science has shown that Jews are an ethnicity and a part of the Semitic genetic group.

Judaism is an ancestral religion, unlike Christianity which is a proselytising religion.

Anyhow, I'd like to continue discussing the actual OP apart from what makes Jews Jewish

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

dfolnep: Jews aren't just a religious group. They are an ethnic group also. Biologically they are shown to share genes with eachother. Infact in Europe Ashkenazi Jews only interbred with Gentiles at a rate of 0.5% per generation. Science has shown that Jews are an ethnicity and a part of the Semitic genetic group.

Judaism is an ancestral religion, unlike Christianity which is a proselytising religion.

Anyhow, I'd like to continue discussing the actual OP apart from what makes Jews Jewish

So nice, to see a religious person using science to back their argument, for once.

mega man

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

True, but you missed the point: some kids can actually hold a debate and form an opinion on their own at 13! Shocking, eh?! Edukashun worx!

Banning them from a religion they wish to be a part of and forcing them into one blindly are the same thing.



Nooo.... That's robots you're thinking of, not humans.



Who cares? Lots of people - non-Jewish people included - get cricumcized for reasons that are nothing to do with religion. It's quiet popular to have male children circumsized in the US.

its just that i know this guy who will do it real cheap

pickarooney

Jakkass - how do you account for Ethiopian Jews? Are they somehow genetically linked with Middle-Eastern/North American Jews in a way that white/semitic gentiles are not?

philologos

pickarooney: Tribes in Africa have also been shown to be of ethnic Jewish descent. There was the case of the Lembaa which were rejected in being considered by Rabbinical Judaism as Jews for years, and they were found to be of the same line of Semitic descent as they were. Jews with Semitic origins exist all over the world including Africa and Asia. They obviously differ slightly genetics wise but they are all from the same stem.

Zillah

Jakkass wrote: »

Isn't that denying people a free choice of conscience, very much akin to what you accuse Christian parents of doing? :pac:

Children are too stupid to exercise a "free choice of conscience", that's why they're called children, that's why their consent for sex is not considered consent. I accuse Christian parents of indoctrinating their children into a religion, which is exactly the opposite of what I'm doing.

I find it funny the way you would be okay with your child smoking cannabis, but not okay with your child having their own beliefs.

They can have all the beliefs they want. I'm forbidding them from joining any religious organisations, nothing more.


As for this whole Judaism being a race or a religion thing, it's both. You can usually look at a Jewish person and recognise them as a Jew just by how they look, and I don't mean their clothes. The concept of race is very much a wishy washy social construct anyway, but yes, Jewishness is considered to be inherited through the mother and there are traits that are common amongst Jews. I very much doubt that the modern Jewish people look very much like the Jews of the Old Testament but then that doesn't really matter does it?

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

For the sake of argument. I'm going to be a Jew for the next 5 minutes. I'm not a part of the Semitic people.

Jews only recognize you as Jewish if your mother was Jewish. So yeah, onless your Mother is Jewish for those five minutes then you aren't racially Jewish.

dlofnep wrote: »

Being of a religious faith does not dictate your genetics. If it just so happens to be that a large portion of people in a specific area have a similar faith - that has nothing to do with their race.

Nobody said religion and race are related but since Judaism is very negitive towards converts and outer marriage it means there is very little racial difference in the religion.

dlofnep wrote: »

You're 100% wrong about this. If you want to make the case for Israelis being a race, then you can - although, I'll disagree with it too on the basis that they are no more an individual race than Irish people are. But to make a claim that Jewish people are a race is 100% inaccurate, and every single

They share genetics and racial traits, how would you define race ?

Iwasfrozen

Flamed Diving wrote: »

So nice, to see a religious person using science to back their argument, for once.

Christians use science to back up their views alot, such as the origin of the Bible for example.

Flamed Diving

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Christians use science to back up their views alot, such as the origin of the Bible for example.

Non-nonsensical arguments, then.

Iwasfrozen

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Non-nonsensical arguments, then.

?
Care to explain what you mean by that ?

Flamed Diving

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

?
Care to explain what you mean by that ?

Any means they use to discover the origins of the Bible will be biased in order to fit the already arrived at conclusion of the Bibles origin, based on scriptures.

In otherwords:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Zillah wrote: »

Children are too stupid to exercise a "free choice of conscience", that's why they're called children, that's why their consent for sex is not considered consent. I accuse Christian parents of indoctrinating their children into a religion, which is exactly the opposite of what I'm doing.

We're talking a thriteen year old here. If a thirteen year old is "too stupid to exercise a free choice of conscience" and can't understand a religion and discuss its merits (or lack thereof) then something is DRASTICALLY wrong with the way that child is being educated.

They can have all the beliefs they want. I'm forbidding them from joining any religious organisations, nothing more.

If they really want too, and have done the research, they will. Behind your back if nessecary. You won't have a say in the matter.