Research A Soldier

katyt

johnny_doyle wrote: »

Have you managed to find the family on the 1911 census? or James on the 1901 census?

Thank you for both those references - I didn't know either of them.
James does not appear in the 1901 census, I reckon now he was overseas in the army. Frank was 4 years old and is on the census!
The family do not appear at all in the 1911 census. We are speculating that they may have objected to the census being done.
We know that Frank Carney was in the IRB, and was interned in Ballykinlar Jail with Peadar Kearney, Sean Lemass and a bunch of others. We have in the family an autograph book owned by his girlfriend of the time, my grandmother, where they all left lengthy notes.
Frank refused to fight in the Civil War - he would not turn on his friends, and was again jailed. He then became TD for Donegal, and was in Fianna Fail when it first entered the Dail in 1927.
He was in the first Government of Fianna Fail. He was in Dublin to attend the opening of the new Dail sitting in October 1932 when he died, at just 36. The entire government went to his funeral in Dublin and in Derry, where he lived. The papers say that Michael Collins was known as the Big Fella, Dev was the Long Fella and Frank Carney was the Wee Man!

arnhem44

He may not of been overseas during the census,soldiers and RIC were often listed using there initials while stationed in a barracks here .It's just a possibility and might be worth looking into if you haven't done so already but is a lot more difficult to pin down your man.

katyt

arnhem44 wrote: »

He may not of been overseas during the census,soldiers and RIC were often listed using there initials while stationed in a barracks here .It's just a possibility and might be worth looking into if you haven't done so already but is a lot more difficult to pin down your man.

I'll try that, thanks. I have written to the Inniskilling Museum in Enniskillen to see if they have any information on James.

katyt

arnhem44 wrote: »

He may not of been overseas during the census,soldiers and RIC were often listed using there initials while stationed in a barracks here .It's just a possibility and might be worth looking into if you haven't done so already but is a lot more difficult to pin down your man.

I think I may have found him - THANKS! There is a J Carney in the 1911 Census in Gortmore Barracks in Omagh. I willcheck if this is the Inniskillings, and if this is the right J Carney. We know there were 2 in the Iniskillings at that time. (I should be working!)

johnny_doyle

katyt wrote: »

I think I may have found him - THANKS! There is a J Carney in the 1911 Census in Gortmore Barracks in Omagh. I willcheck if this is the Inniskillings, and if this is the right J Carney. We know there were 2 in the Iniskillings at that time. (I should be working!)

the J Carney in Gortmore is a Cpl, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, RC, formerly a fisherman from Co Fermanagh which would tie in with Edward's occupation. He's on page 2, no 28.

katyt

Yes, that is definitely our James.
Does anyone here know about medals at all? I have been trying to find out about his medal, but I am getting more confused! The medal is the Cross of the Order of St George, 4th Class. All the information I see says it is a Russian medal. How did it come to be given to people in the British Army? Were the medals engraved, ie. would it be possible to try to locate the original?

johnny_doyle

I believe that large numbers of the 3rd and 4th class of the Order of St George were awarded to British and Commonwealth troops fighting the Turks by the Russians. The Inniskilling Musuem enquiry you have might shed more light on those awarded to the 1st Battn men.

No idea if they were engraved I'm afraid.

johnny_doyle

katyt wrote: »

The family do not appear at all in the 1911 census. We are speculating that they may have objected to the census being done.

I think this might be Edward in the 1911 census

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Killykeen/Derryna/340044/


info on James still proving elusive.

katyt

johnny_doyle wrote: »

I think this might be Edward in the 1911 census

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Killykeen/Derryna/340044/


info on James still proving elusive.

That must be him! It says he is married - so Eliza, his wife must be still alive, and Frank would be 15. I can't find them anywhere - but then I couldn't find Edward either! Thanks a million.

katyt

I heard from the nice lady in the Inniskillings Museum today. She gave me contacts to get James Carney's medals and his service record. She said that they don't keep Soldiers' service records, but she did have a record of his Great War record. The key information was:

Campaigns: Great War
Medals: 1914 Star – British War Medal – Victory Medal – Cross of St George 4th Cl (Russia) LG.25.8.15
Killed/Died: DOW 27 Dec 1915 Age 36 Place:Gallipoli
Wounded: 20/10/1914
Service History: Disembarked France (23/08/1914). Proceeded to join 1st Bn (16/10/15). Joined Bn (01/11/1915). Performed the duties of A/CQMS (20/11/1915 – 24/11/1915).

johnny_doyle

step in the right direction there then.

I see you have a post on the 1914-18 Great War Forum which would have been my next suggestion. Someone may well have the unit war diary and be able to find a reference to him in there and/or give more info re the dates you've got for him.

katyt

Today there was info on the Great War Forum regarding my great uncle James Carney. It gives details of James death and a map of the exact spot where he died. It is amazing how touching this is all these years later, and with a relative I never knew existed until very recently.

On the 27th December 1915 the 1st Battalion, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers relieved the 1st Border Regt. (this relief was completed by 1300 hrs) in the firing line, in the area of Northern Barricade
It informs that the trenches were in a poor condition due to heavy rain. The Inniskillings also took over an extra 200 yards of firing line in the direction of Gull Ravine. This seems to have necessitated all four companies being in the firing line at once. There is a ref to a 'marked increase in enemy shelling' and the casualties for that day are given as; I killed, 2 died of wounds and 1 wounded.

Gregsor

Hi guys i just found out my great grandfather Christopher Byrne was in the Connaught Rangers in the early 1900's and fought in the Boer war.

I believe he was awarded a medal of sort which i must find out.

I am in the early stage of getting the the details and it was actually my cousin in Australia who has been researching him and he is going to forward on some of the information he has found in the coming weeks.

Exciting times

Hope i posted this in the right section.

Shutuplaura

My Granduncle was killed in 1917 in the Ypres Salient. I've found his census records and but I know that his service records were among those destroyed in the blitz.

Is there anything further I can find out about his time in the army. I'm aware that there is a medal award card (called a MIC??) but would there be anything such as battalion rolls that could tell me more about this role in his company or something like that? He would have been a L/Cpl.

Ponster

Shutuplaura wrote: »

Is there anything further I can find out about his time in the army. I'm aware that there is a medal award card (called a MIC??) but would there be anything such as battalion rolls that could tell me more about this role in his company or something like that? He would have been a L/Cpl.

There's a very good chance that these exist but afaik there isn't one place where these are centralised and so you'll have to contact the appropriate records office.

johnny_doyle

there's usually more miscellaneous info about a soldier killed than there is about one who survived.

Presumably you've checked the CWGC site? If Irish, he might have an entry in Soldiers Died in the Great War and Ireland's War Memorial Records. There is a small chance that there might be an entry in De Ruvigny's. In the absence of service records unit war diaries are worth searching for but these tend not to give much info about any individual soldiers.

There's a lot more info now available about casualties thanks to books such as Wexfords War Dead by Tom Burnell which include some personal snippets based on newspaper entries. Other counties have been done.

katyt

Hi Johnny, yes I have checked CWGC. I got that lovely pic of the Twelve Tree Copse there too.
I am at a dead end at the moment without his service record, so I welcome any help.
I would love to find out when he signed up. I reckon it could have been round 1898. Are there lists of regiments anywhere at that time? Is there an equivalent of the 'Great War Forum' for the Boer War, does anyone know?
Do you know if there is a way of getting the information as to why he got his medal in 1914 , or would that only be on his service record? Is there a central place for these?

arnhem44

http://www.victorianwars.com/

johnny_doyle

Gregsor wrote: »

Hi guys i just found out my great grandfather Christopher Byrne was in the Connaught Rangers in the early 1900's and fought in the Boer war.

I believe he was awarded a medal of sort which i must find out.

I am in the early stage of getting the the details and it was actually my cousin in Australia who has been researching him and he is going to forward on some of the information he has found in the coming weeks.

Exciting times

Hope i posted this in the right section.

if you have a service number, date of birth and place of birth, post it up and it should be possible to see if he then went on to serve during WW1. There is a medal card for a Christopher Byrne (7850 and 3/7829 Connaughts) and some service records.

There are links to the various medals re the Boer War and casualty figures for the Connaughts at :

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_regiment/irish/connaught_rangers.htm

R.Dub.Fusilier

this is not a WW1 query but maybe someone can help. i am looking for information about 6978300 FSR P Gallagher royal irish fusiliers. he most likely served in WW2 and after. have no idea where to start so any help would be appreciated.

arnhem44

Hi RDF,as far as records are concerned as far as I'm aware no British records are available after 1920 unless your a living relative or the actual veteran so I would imagine a soldier serving after this date may be a little harder to research than normal but I could be wrong.

johnny_doyle

not too hot on post WW1 stuff but the number range 6972001 to 7006000 appears to have been allocated to the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers from 1920 onwards. 7040001 to 7075000 appear to have been for the Royal Irish Fusiliers. Fusilier P Gallagher would probably have enlisted into the Inniskillings and transferred to the Royal Irish. The big difference post WW1 is that soldiers got Army numbers rather than regimental numbers and that number stayed with them thru their service regardless of later units.

R.Dub.Fusilier

johnny_doyle wrote: »

not too hot on post WW1 stuff but the number range 6972001 to 7006000 appears to have been allocated to the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers from 1920 onwards. 7040001 to 7075000 appear to have been for the Royal Irish Fusiliers. Fusilier P Gallagher would probably have enlisted into the Inniskillings and transferred to the Royal Irish. The big difference post WW1 is that soldiers got Army numbers rather than regimental numbers and that number stayed with them thru their service regardless of later units.

thanks a44 & JD. i have no idea about WW2 stuff .

on another matter , JD can you help me with tracing someone in the gazette?
i got a sports medal recently to Segt B Keeping RDF and traced him Benjimin Keeping 10946 and he may have won the military medal.

arnhem44

An interesting soldier,quite an amount of info on Ancestry on him,surprising that there isn't a second MIC for him for the MM.I noticed also he suffered a gun shot wound to the leg and went onto to serve after the war.There may be a war diary for the 2nd battalion that may mention his actions although slim but you never know.I've also spent some time this morning trying to find anything on him in the London Gazette but have come up with nothing.

R.Dub.Fusilier

arnhem44 wrote: »

An interesting soldier,quite an amount of info on Ancestry on him,surprising that there isn't a second MIC for him for the MM.I noticed also he suffered a gun shot wound to the leg and went onto to serve after the war.There may be a war diary for the 2nd battalion that may mention his actions although slim but you never know.I've also spent some time this morning trying to find anything on him in the London Gazette but have come up with nothing.

i got the info from ancestry regarding the MM and as you can see its not mentioned on his mic.he also had a brother in the RDF. thanks for looking at the London Gazette as i can never find anything i'm looking for in it. i have some of the RDF war diaries and i must get around to having a good look at them.

thanks again A44 for taking the time out to help.

johnny_doyle

here's his entry in the LG (second from bottom in the left hand column) :

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30573/supplements/3237

He appears to have been a twin brother of Frederick Arthur Keeping, both born 1891/2 in Lodnon.

Their younger brothers Harold and Ronald also appear to be twins, born 1900 in Milford, Hants. Their brother Frank appears to have been born in Athens, Greece in 1897.

B R Keeping died 1958 in Croydon, Surrey

Frederick Arthur Keeping, 9497, RDF. 1914 Star, BWM and VM as per Benjamin but Benjamin also has the clasp to the 1914 Star.

A younger brother, Alexander Edwin Michael Keeping (b 1902) went on to play football for Southampton and had an interesting career

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Keeping

arnhem44

I tried and tried for that this morning and had no joy even with the date the search engine just brings up all sorts,I find it to be one of the most annoying archives to search through(rant over:)).Now that that confirms the medal I wonder why the entry dosen't appear on his MIC or that it dosen't have a seperate MIC for it?

R.Dub.Fusilier

JD you are the only person i know of that can find his way around the London Gazette. thanks for the info. a bit strange that the MM is not mentioned on his MIC but i have a 1915 star to a bloke from the Irish Rifles who won the MM and as above is not mentioned on MIC but found the info in a book and in the L.G.
I'm amazed that he was injured in the war and still managed to win a medal for sports.
Thanks again to JD and A44 for their help.

johnny_doyle

I can only find 1 MIC on ancestry but there appear to be 2 on the National Archives site. 1 as a Private and 1 as a Sgt


Sgt : (possibly the MM record?)
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?queryType=1&resultcount=1&Edoc_Id=6389347


Private :
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?queryType=1&resultcount=1&Edoc_Id=3795180

R.Dub.Fusilier

thanks JD i might get that other mic later. it seems that his brother Fredrick has a second mic also. B Keeping was also 7075242 3rd Batt Hants Regiment for a time.

R.Dub.Fusilier

i attached two pics of the sports medal.

johnny_doyle

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

thanks JD i might get that other mic later. it seems that his brother Fredrick has a second mic also. B Keeping was also 7075242 3rd Batt Hants Regiment for a time.

the 7075242 number is a result of the 1920 army number re-organisation. RDF were given the number range 7075001 thru to 7109000.

3rd Battalion Hants (Special Reserve) was the part time unit he enlisted into in early 1908. Looks like he went into the Hants Regt in August 1908 as a regular soldier and was moved to the 2nd Battn RDF in 1910. He was with the 2nd RDF when they went to France in August 1914. Moved to 3rd Battn RDF as of 14/1/1918. 3rd Battn moved to Grimsby in 1918 as part of the Humber Garrison which tallies with the medal inscription.

Demobbed to B reserve in 1919/20/21 (can't work out the various dates that appear in his record but given that he got the new number he was still in the Army in some form in 1920) then to D reserve and then Royal Artillery as a part timer from 1925-1927.

Suziq1957

I don't know it you remember this post it was quite a while ago. I came across it looking for John Bowie. Mary Rodger was my grandmother. My mother was born at 37 Gordon Street, Buckie. John Bowie was her first husband with whom she had two sons. A lot of drifters where commandered during the first world war, I believe, to act as mine sweepers. In the Buckie Advertiser of July 1917 it was reported that George K Bowie, 5 James Street, Buckpool was reported to have been drowned off the HMD Morning Star. In another later edition the paper shows photographs of the four sons and two son in laws of George K Bowie, Buckpool. John, James, George and William also Peter Reid and Peter Cowie. I wonder, where they all drowned on that day? How sad.

R.Dub.Fusilier

Suziq1957 wrote: »

I don't know it you remember this post it was quite a while ago. I came across it looking for John Bowie. Mary Rodger was my grandmother. My mother was born at 37 Gordon Street, Buckie. John Bowie was her first husband with whom she had two sons. A lot of drifters where commandered during the first world war, I believe, to act as mine sweepers. In the Buckie Advertiser of July 1917 it was reported that George K Bowie, 5 James Street, Buckpool was reported to have been drowned off the HMD Morning Star. In another later edition the paper shows photographs of the four sons and two son in laws of George K Bowie, Buckpool. John, James, George and William also Peter Reid and Peter Cowie. I wonder, where they all drowned on that day? How sad.

is this who you are looking for http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2743818

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=666935

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=3041535

arnhem44

Hi Suziq1957,the newspaper article refers to Peter Reid as being in the Royal Flying Corps serving as a mechanic and there is no Peter Cowie showing up as a casualty.There were other boats with the name of the Morning Star but as you already know James and John Bowie were both killed on the same day and are buried in a local graveyard near me which I have visited many times.It has been suggested on another site that these two men were not related but that doesn't seem to be the case now and seems they were brothers.

Would you have a copy of the photo that appeared in the paper or a photo of either casualties listed?,it would be great if you had.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2743817

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2743818










Page 5 shows photographs of the four sons and two son in laws of George K. Bowie, 5 James Street, Buckpool, who were all in the services.
John, James, George, and William also Peter Reid and Peter Cowie. Reid was a 1st mechanic in the RFC while Cowie was the skipper of the HMD Arndilly Castle. John Smith, of Lossiemouth, yet another son in law whose photograph was not shown was also on government service.

Suziq1957

It does say on the Buckie Hertitage site that George K Bowie was drowned off the Morning Star but have found no listings for him. I guessed that not only did the government commandeer that fishing drifter but also the crew with it. It would have been a family thing. Doubt there was any fishing going on. I have ordered a copy of the page from that paper which hopefully has that photogragh on it.

arnhem44

Suziq1957 wrote: »

It does say on the Buckie Hertitage site that George K Bowie was drowned off the Morning Star but have found no listings for him. I guessed that not only did the government commandeer that fishing drifter but also the crew with it. It would have been a family thing. Doubt there was any fishing going on. I have ordered a copy of the page from that paper which hopefully has that photogragh on it.

Hi again Suzi,a crew for such a boat would of had a crew of around 10 to fifteen people and I would agree that a lot of these men may of been family or relatives.I started a thread on the Morning Star IV on another forum when I was looking for info on the two local burials and was told that there records could be searched in the National Archives in Kew in series BT 377/7 ,sadly however these are not online and would require a visit to London.The HMD Morning Star IV was a hired net drifter/mine sweeper built in 1907 and was put into service with the Navy from 1915 till 1919 stationed at Queenstown(Cobh),on board was one six pounder gun.The records could give you an interesting insight to the two men and possibly reveal more about family and there service.If you do get a photo of the men could you please send on a copy,I would love to put a face to a name.

johnny_doyle

can't help with the chaps in this query. There is a bit of info about the Queenstown patrol here :

http://www.motorlaunchpatrol.net/history/auxiliary_patrol/queenstown/


and a map of the patrol area can be found here :

http://reocities.com/Athens/marble/9138/iiclifton.htm

A nice diagram of how they operated against mines can be found here

http://www.iol.ie/~mkeniry/jjmorococala.htm

Suziq1957

img005.jpg

Suziq1957

These are the faces to the names.

arnhem44

Thanks you for that Suzi,that is very much appreciated.

R.Dub.Fusilier

can anyone help me trace the address and age of Joseph McKinley 13942 8th Bn Dublin Fusiliers KIA 29/4/1916 and received the military medal. he was from Dublin. i have tried the usuanl places ancestry.uk CWGC. irelands memorial records .can someone look up the London Gazatte as i can never find my way around it. thanks.

Name: Joseph Mckinley Birth Place: Dublin Death Date: 29 Apr 1916 Death Location: France & Flanders Enlistment Location: Drogheda Rank: Sergeant Regiment: Royal Dublin Fusiliers Battalion: 8th Battalion Number: 13943 Type of Casualty: Killed in action Theatre of War: Western European Theatre Comments: M.M.

arnhem44

For what it's worth which you most likely have seen that there is only one Joseph Mckinley showing up for Dublin on the 1901 census giving his age as eight,I wonder is this your man http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mountjoy/Middle_Gardiner_Street/1325978/

R.Dub.Fusilier

arnhem44 wrote: »

For what it's worth which you most likely have seen that there is only one Joseph Mckinley showing up for Dublin on the 1901 census giving his age as eight,I wonder is this your man http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mountjoy/Middle_Gardiner_Street/1325978/

thanks , i have seen that and thats my grandfathers older brother. McKinleys are thin on the ground in Dublin around the time of the 1901 & 1911 census. of the 16 male McKinleys listed in Dublin in the 1901 census 8 are related to me and of the 17 listed in 1911 8 are related to me. i have heard recently that one of my McKinley relatives served in the British army and i was wondering if the Joseph Mckinley KIA was him.

R.Dub.Fusilier

here is the medal card of Joseph McKinley. even if he is not a relative i would still be interested in finding out about him.

arnhem44

I looked at that earlier and then had a look on the NA site in the Uk to see if there was a separate card for the MM,two cards are showing up with this number and on one gives the initial E for his second name,would it be possible to track down a birth certificate for Joseph McKinley?

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/search-results.asp?searchtype=browserefine&query=corpname%3droyal%20dublin%20fusiliers%7cscope%3d13943&catid=10&pagenumber=1&querytype=1&mediaarray=*

arnhem44

Well would you believe it,I finally found something on the London Gazette, here is his entry confirming the initial E in his second name dated 8th of August 1916 http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29701/supplements/7889

mattjack

Hi,
I,m wondering if I could ask for a little help tracing a ship that sunk around about the 15th to 17th of July in 1917.The reason I,m asking is that a relative of mine possibly drowned on a ship off France in 1917.I,ve found his grave and he is buried with an unidentified sailor.
He was a RDF called Thomas Donachie and his service no. was 12714,the cemetery he,s buried in is Dunkirk Town Cemetery .
thanks

johnny_doyle

from a Gallipoli Association newsletter 1995

"Royal Dublin Fusiliers: Brian Burke (1620), 26 Marigold Place, Conniburrow, Milton Keynes, MK14 7AB, seeks information regarding his Grandfather 12714 Private Thomas Donachie who landed with the 6th Royal Dublin FusiIiers at Suvla on 7August 1915. He had been born in Burnbank and enlisted at Hamilton, his home being 42 Forrest Street, Blantyre, Lanarkshire where he worked as a coalminer. Private Donachie survived Gallipoli but was drowned near Dunkirk on 16 July 1917 while serving with the 1st Royal Dublin Fusiliers"

not seeing any ships sunk in the area at that time.

mattjack

johnny_doyle wrote: »

from a Gallipoli Association newsletter 1995

"Royal Dublin Fusiliers: Brian Burke (1620), 26 Marigold Place, Conniburrow, Milton Keynes, MK14 7AB, seeks information regarding his Grandfather 12714 Private Thomas Donachie who landed with the 6th Royal Dublin FusiIiers at Suvla on 7August 1915. He had been born in Burnbank and enlisted at Hamilton, his home being 42 Forrest Street, Blantyre, Lanarkshire where he worked as a coalminer. Private Donachie survived Gallipoli but was drowned near Dunkirk on 16 July 1917 while serving with the 1st Royal Dublin Fusiliers"

not seeing any ships sunk in the area at that time.

Thanks for the prompt reply Johnny...Brian Burke is my fathers cousin..I have all that info from Brian already.....a name of a ship would be a little bit of extra information.I believe it was most likely some sort of small troop carrier/lighter type of boat that sunk.His headstone shows he is buried with an unidentified sailor, I,ve been told that this may suggest a fire/engine room type explosion where the sailors body was badly damaged.
Once again thanks for your reply.
JD.